UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

"Rob" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

napisa3 w wiadomo?ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:


I was asking on the speed of electrons in the conductor.

No you were babbling about electrons jumping off the end of the antenna
yet again.

You have also been told many times that the speed of the electrons in
the
conductor is less than a slow crawl.

The average speed.
The circuit with an antenna was named "open circuit" before Maxwell.
Maxwell discovered that the current is "prolongated" in the insulator
(displacement current) so the all circuits are "closed".
So at the bonduary the electrons must jump off. And come back.
In each textbooks is wrote that electrons jump off from a conductor and
come
back.
But sometimes this phenomena is not symmetric.

You still have not explained how it is possible that the behaviour
is not symmetric and still there is no nonlinearity in the antenna.

The oscillatory flow of electrons is inherently not symmetric.
Always some of them jump off from the antenna end. VSWR =1 means that all
jumps off.

It should be obvious for you if you see the electrons in the wire.
For Pointing there no electrons. There are only fields around the wire.
He wrote: " Formerly a current was regarded as something traveling along a
conductor, attention being chiefly directed to the conductor, and the energy
which appeared at any part of the circuit, if considered at all, was
supposed to be conveyed thither through the conductor by the current. "

And next: "The aim of this paper is to prove that there is a general law for
the transfer of energy, according to which it moves at any point
perpendicularly to the plane containing the lines of electric force and
magnetic force, and that the amount crossing unit of area per second of this
plane is equal to the product of the intensities of the two forces,
multiplied by the sine of the angle between them, divided by , while the
direction of flow of energy is that in which a right-handed screw would move
if turned round from the positive direction of the electromotive to the
positive direction of the magnetic intensity".

The teachers buy it.

Before Haeviside and Pointing was " something traveling along a conductor".
What do you prefer: electrons or fields?
S*

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

U¿ytkownik "Rob" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Howard K0ACF" napisa3 w wiadomo?ci
...

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
.. .

"The wire antennas used with crystal receivers are monopole antennas
which develop their output voltage with respect to ground. They require
a
return circuit connected to ground (earth) so that the current from the
antenna, after passing through the receiver, can flow into the ground."

I had a crystal radio & the antenna was a piece of wire hanging out of
it
& the radio was built in a wooden box & I could listen to it on the
second
floor of a wooden building & sitting on a wooden chair. no connection to
the ground (earth) as you say is required & the station I listened to
was
a daytime station located about 50 miles away...How did it work & no
connection to the ground (earth) as you say is required & no battery
power
& the crystal had a cat wisker for tuning...

Ian wrote:
"Normally there is a tuned circuit at the input, which consists of a
coil and capacitor in parallel. The DC flows through the coil.

At the output there either is a high-impedance magnetic headphone,
which conducts DC through its coil, or a crystal headphone with a
resistor in parallel for the DC path."

Next the DC flows into "ground":

NO NO NO NO NO!!!!

The DC flows in a circle inside the receiver!!!

When you see the schematic diagram of a working crystal receiver,
you can make a trip trough the diode, through other components in
the receiver, all conducting DC, back to the the point where you
started at the diode.

This path must exist and this is where the DC flows.

The path is the ground: "The use of the term ground (or earth) is so common
in electrical and
electronics applications that circuits in portable electronic devices such
as cell phones and media players as well as circuits in vehicles such as
ships, aircraft, and spacecraft may be spoken of as having a "ground"
connection without any actual connection to the Earth. This is usually a
large conductor attached to one side of the power supply "

When there is no such path, a DC voltage equal to the peak value
of the HF voltage will develop across the diode, the diode will
no longer conduct, and there is no more rectification. Hence the
receiver will not work.

This is not related to "ground". There must be HF voltage at
the input of the receiver, but it is not important if it is between
a monopole antenna and ground or between the poles of a dipole.

Each voltage disappear (leakage) with the time. That before diode and that
after. The leakage is always and everywhere.
The leakage is surface and humidity dependent.

You can even make a crystal receiver with a ferrite rod as an
antenna, which will operate without any ground.

Leakage do the work.
S*

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Rob" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

napisa3 w wiadomo?ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:


I was asking on the speed of electrons in the conductor.

No you were babbling about electrons jumping off the end of the antenna
yet again.

You have also been told many times that the speed of the electrons in
the
conductor is less than a slow crawl.

The average speed.
The circuit with an antenna was named "open circuit" before Maxwell.
Maxwell discovered that the current is "prolongated" in the insulator
(displacement current) so the all circuits are "closed".
So at the bonduary the electrons must jump off. And come back.
In each textbooks is wrote that electrons jump off from a conductor and
come
back.
But sometimes this phenomena is not symmetric.

You still have not explained how it is possible that the behaviour
is not symmetric and still there is no nonlinearity in the antenna.

The oscillatory flow of electrons is inherently not symmetric.

You keep claiming that. But you don't explain why there is no
nonlinearity in the antenna. When the antenna is nonlinear, as you
claim, there must be intermodulation in the antenna. But in a well
constructed antenna, there is no intermodulation. So there is
no unsymmetric flow of electrons.

I don't care what people have written in the 19th century. Please
stop bringing that up. I am only interested in how things are
explained today.

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"Normally there is a tuned circuit at the input, which consists of a
coil and capacitor in parallel. The DC flows through the coil.

At the output there either is a high-impedance magnetic headphone,
which conducts DC through its coil, or a crystal headphone with a
resistor in parallel for the DC path."

Next the DC flows into "ground":

NO NO NO NO NO!!!!

The DC flows in a circle inside the receiver!!!

When you see the schematic diagram of a working crystal receiver,
you can make a trip trough the diode, through other components in
the receiver, all conducting DC, back to the the point where you
started at the diode.

This path must exist and this is where the DC flows.

The path is the ground:

Can't you read?
Or are you even dumber than I already think?

The path is not to the ground. It is a circle inside the receiver.

When there is no such path, a DC voltage equal to the peak value
of the HF voltage will develop across the diode, the diode will
no longer conduct, and there is no more rectification. Hence the
receiver will not work.

This is not related to "ground". There must be HF voltage at
the input of the receiver, but it is not important if it is between
a monopole antenna and ground or between the poles of a dipole.

Each voltage disappear (leakage) with the time. That before diode and that
after. The leakage is always and everywhere.
The leakage is surface and humidity dependent.

Only a bad designer will design equipment that requires leakage to
operate. Of course there will be some bad schematics of crystal receivers
around, where there is no obvious DC path around the diode, and maybe
sometimes (depending on construction details) one may be able to hear
some sound, but it is NOT the way it should be done and it is NOT the
explanation of the workings of the receiver.
Except maybe to someone in 1900, who did not understand it fully.

You can even make a crystal receiver with a ferrite rod as an
antenna, which will operate without any ground.

Leakage do the work.

I think leakage has done the work to your brain. Leakage from the
beer bottle, that is.

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

"Rob" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"Normally there is a tuned circuit at the input, which consists of a
coil and capacitor in parallel. The DC flows through the coil.

At the output there either is a high-impedance magnetic headphone,
which conducts DC through its coil, or a crystal headphone with a
resistor in parallel for the DC path."

Next the DC flows into "ground":

NO NO NO NO NO!!!!

The DC flows in a circle inside the receiver!!!

When you see the schematic diagram of a working crystal receiver,
you can make a trip trough the diode, through other components in
the receiver, all conducting DC, back to the the point where you
started at the diode.

This path must exist and this is where the DC flows.

The path is the ground:

Can't you read?
Or are you even dumber than I already think?

The path is not to the ground. It is a circle inside the receiver.

When there is no such path, a DC voltage equal to the peak value
of the HF voltage will develop across the diode, the diode will
no longer conduct, and there is no more rectification. Hence the
receiver will not work.

This is not related to "ground". There must be HF voltage at
the input of the receiver, but it is not important if it is between
a monopole antenna and ground or between the poles of a dipole.

Each voltage disappear (leakage) with the time. That before diode and
that
after. The leakage is always and everywhere.
The leakage is surface and humidity dependent.

Only a bad designer will design equipment that requires leakage to
operate.

Quit opposite. Only the best know what the counterpoise is. The leakage
supply or expel the electrons to/from it.

See:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=j3h...434678&f=false

The Figs 8 and 9 with the Claim 2.
For what there are so many elements. The simple path should be enough (if
you are right).
Of course there will be some bad schematics of crystal receivers
around, where there is no obvious DC path around the diode, and maybe
sometimes (depending on construction details) one may be able to hear
some sound, but it is NOT the way it should be done and it is NOT the
explanation of the workings of the receiver.
Except maybe to someone in 1900, who did not understand it fully.

They fully understand it. They discovered the induction and the leakage (in
electrostatics).
You simply do not understand that your path is the countrpoise.

You can even make a crystal receiver with a ferrite rod as an
antenna, which will operate without any ground.

Leakage do the work.

I think leakage has done the work to your brain. Leakage from the
beer bottle, that is.

Leakage can transfer the charge from one body to the another.
The same should apply to "brain to brain".
S*

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
.. .

See:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=j3h...434678&f=false

S*
Ah - we're back to the rectenna which is defined in Wiki thus "A simple
rectenna element consists of a dipole antenna with a diode connected across
the dipole elements".

ttfn, Ian.

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

"Rob" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

The oscillatory flow of electrons is inherently not symmetric.

You keep claiming that. But you don't explain why there is no
nonlinearity in the antenna. When the antenna is nonlinear, as you
claim, there must be intermodulation in the antenna. But in a well
constructed antenna, there is no intermodulation. So there is
no unsymmetric flow of electrons.

I don't care what people have written in the 19th century. Please
stop bringing that up. I am only interested in how things are
explained today.

Everything was discovered in XIX (for the radio):
"The electrical waves produced by the oscillations at A traveled along the
wires and were reflected at the far ends. Lodge knew that the longer spark
at B3 was due to what he called the "recoil impulse" or "recoil kick" at the
end of the wires where the waves were reflected.[4] At spark gap B3 both the
incident wave and the reflected wave had their maximum values and were in
phase. This produced a voltage twice as large as the voltage at spark gap A.
From: http://www.antiquewireless.org/otb/lodge1102.htm

Is it still true?

If yes, than you must admit that the leakage must be stronger at "recoil
kick" when the voltage is doubled.
"So there is the unsymmetrical flow of electrons." Do you agree?
S*

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:
Only a bad designer will design equipment that requires leakage to
operate.

Quit opposite. Only the best know what the counterpoise is. The leakage
supply or expel the electrons to/from it.

Hogwash.

See:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=j3h...434678&f=false

The Figs 8 and 9 with the Claim 2.
For what there are so many elements. The simple path should be enough (if
you are right).

There is no counterpoise in this antenna.
The full-wave bridge rectifiers provide a DC path through the load
without requiring a DC path in the dipole.

Many elements are used because this antenna is supposed to operate
on microwave, and thus a single element has only a very small capture
area. You stack a lot of them to enlarge the capture area, which is
required to capture all the signals at the point of focus.

Except maybe to someone in 1900, who did not understand it fully.

They fully understand it. They discovered the induction and the leakage (in
electrostatics).
You simply do not understand that your path is the countrpoise.

No, the problem is that I do understand how those circuits work and
you don't. Then you fall back to what was written in 1889 instead of
looking at the design with today's knowledge.

You can even make a crystal receiver with a ferrite rod as an
antenna, which will operate without any ground.

Leakage do the work.

I think leakage has done the work to your brain. Leakage from the
beer bottle, that is.

Leakage can transfer the charge from one body to the another.
The same should apply to "brain to brain".

You are too far gone to understand what the bottle has done to you.

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:
I don't care what people have written in the 19th century. Please
stop bringing that up. I am only interested in how things are
explained today.

Everything was discovered in XIX (for the radio):

But then later it was found that the first discoveries were not
entirely correctly described.

"The electrical waves produced by the oscillations at A traveled along the
wires and were reflected at the far ends. Lodge knew that the longer spark
at B3 was due to what he called the "recoil impulse" or "recoil kick" at the
end of the wires where the waves were reflected.[4] At spark gap B3 both the
incident wave and the reflected wave had their maximum values and were in
phase. This produced a voltage twice as large as the voltage at spark gap A.
From: http://www.antiquewireless.org/otb/lodge1102.htm

Is it still true?

A reflected wave along a nonterminated transmission line will result in
doubled voltage at the open end.

If yes, than you must admit that the leakage must be stronger at "recoil
kick" when the voltage is doubled.
"So there is the unsymmetrical flow of electrons." Do you agree?

But here you are talking complete hogwash again. The effect you describe
above has nothing to do with leakage or unsymmetrical flow of electrons.

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

"Ian" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
.. .

See:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=j3h...434678&f=false

S*
Ah - we're back to the rectenna which is defined in Wiki thus "A simple
rectenna element consists of a dipole antenna with a diode connected
across the dipole elements".

Here you are the simple:
http://www.ac-grenoble.fr/yre/agency...e/rap-nuc2.htm

Are the dipole elements symmetrical?
It seems that one of them is a counterpoise.
S*