UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

On Tuesday, July 24, 2012 9:44:24 AM UTC-5, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
But is in unnormal operation. When it (corona) is seen?

The quad beam antenna was invented by Clarence Moore to solve a corona problem encountered with a Yagi-type beam at 10k' in the Andes Mountains. Here is that interesting history:

http://lists.contesting.com/_towerta.../msg00393.html

The point is that electron flow corona destroyed the Yagi-type beam but there was negligible corona using the quad beam because the standing wave voltage maximums are much lower with the quad. Yet the two antennas radiated approximately the same magnitude of RF waves. This proves that electron flow is not the mechanism associated with RF radiation. It is simple to understand once one realizes that electron flow corona results in non-coherent radiation while normal photonic RF radiation is coherent.
--
73, Cecil, w5dxp.com

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

napisa? w wiadomo?ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:


An antenna is a device that converts the AC electrical energy at it's
teminals into electromagnetic energy which radiates from the antenna
and also coverts the electromagnetic energy which antenna intercepts
into AC electrical energy at it's terminals.

Radiates waves or photons or something else?

As you have been told many times but are too stupid to understand,
electromagnetic radiation can be viewed as either waves or photons.

Why are you asking again, are you stupid, drunk, or insane?


A rectenna is simply an antenna with something that acts as a diode at
it's terminals to convert the AC to DC.

In AC electrons oscillate. In DC electrons are flowing for ages.
Where they come from?

No; in AC electrons periodically change directions and in DC electrons
flow in one direction only.

An antenna is a device that converts the AC electrical energy at it's
teminals into electromagnetic energy which radiates from the antenna
and also converts the electromagnetic energy which antenna intercepts
into AC electrical energy at it's terminals.

A diode converts AC into DC.

You are an ignorant, babbling, ineducable idiot who knows absolutely
NOTHING about anything.

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

They jump off from the end (corona) after the time equal to speed of
light.
They do not flow from the transmitter to the end of antenna. They kick
the
next ones. It is the oscillatory flow.

You have been told time and time again that there is no corona in normal
antenna operation.

But is in unnormal operation. When it is seen?

Only when you output kilowatts of power and there is some point in
the antenna where the voltage is very high.

But a radio amateur knows that it is possible to transmit signals with
arbitrarily low power and that the range becomes smaller but it still
works all the time. So even with very low voltages, where there is
no corona, a transmitter still transmits.

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
.. .
Are all dipoles the monopoles?
S*

Good afternoon Szczepan.
Dipoles and monopoles are two different designs of aerial. A basic knowledge
of (I think) Latin would prove this to you.
You'd find these two types of aerial in basic/entry-level reference books
for ham
radio. Please use the links to the ARRL and RSGB book shops and get yourself
a decent book on the topic of
aerials.

Regards, Ian.

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:


In AC electrons oscillate. In DC electrons are flowing for ages.
Where they come from?

No; in AC electrons periodically change directions and in DC electrons
flow in one direction only.

An antenna is a device that converts the electromagnetic energy which
antenna intercepts
into AC electrical energy at it's terminals.

A diode converts AC into DC.

The crystal radio antenna has only one terminal. Before the diode is AC.
After the diode is DC.
Where electrons come from?
S*

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

"Rob" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

napisa3 w wiadomo?ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

They jump off from the end (corona) after the time equal to speed of
light.
They do not flow from the transmitter to the end of antenna. They kick
the
next ones. It is the oscillatory flow.

You have been told time and time again that there is no corona in normal
antenna operation.

But is in unnormal operation. When it is seen?

Only when you output kilowatts of power and there is some point in
the antenna where the voltage is very high.

I was asking on the speed of electrons in the conductor.

But a radio amateur knows that it is possible to transmit signals with
arbitrarily low power and that the range becomes smaller but it still
works all the time. So even with very low voltages, where there is
no corona, a transmitter still transmits.

"Leakage current is also any current that flows when the ideal current is
zero".

Real current is not the ideal one.
S*

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:


In AC electrons oscillate. In DC electrons are flowing for ages.
Where they come from?

No; in AC electrons periodically change directions and in DC electrons
flow in one direction only.

An antenna is a device that converts the electromagnetic energy which
antenna intercepts
into AC electrical energy at it's terminals.

A diode converts AC into DC.

The crystal radio antenna has only one terminal. Before the diode is AC.
After the diode is DC.
Where electrons come from?
S*

There should always be a DC path around the diode, or the crystal radio
will not work.

Normally there is a tuned circuit at the input, which consists of a
coil and capacitor in parallel. The DC flows through the coil.

At the output there either is a high-impedance magnetic headphone,
which conducts DC through its coil, or a crystal headphone with a
resistor in parallel for the DC path.

The electrons circulate around the DC path in the receiver.

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Rob" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

napisa3 w wiadomo?ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

They jump off from the end (corona) after the time equal to speed of
light.
They do not flow from the transmitter to the end of antenna. They kick
the
next ones. It is the oscillatory flow.

You have been told time and time again that there is no corona in normal
antenna operation.

But is in unnormal operation. When it is seen?

Only when you output kilowatts of power and there is some point in
the antenna where the voltage is very high.

I was asking on the speed of electrons in the conductor.

No you were telling that electrons were jumping off the antenna because
of corona, which is nonsense when the transmitter is low power, and
points to an operational problem when the transmitter is high power.

But a radio amateur knows that it is possible to transmit signals with
arbitrarily low power and that the range becomes smaller but it still
works all the time. So even with very low voltages, where there is
no corona, a transmitter still transmits.

"Leakage current is also any current that flows when the ideal current is
zero".

Real current is not the ideal one.

The average Pole may not be stupid, but that does not mean there don't
exist very stupid Poles.

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

"Rob" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

napisa3 w wiadomo?ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:


In AC electrons oscillate. In DC electrons are flowing for ages.
Where they come from?

No; in AC electrons periodically change directions and in DC electrons
flow in one direction only.

An antenna is a device that converts the electromagnetic energy which
antenna intercepts
into AC electrical energy at it's terminals.

A diode converts AC into DC.

The crystal radio antenna has only one terminal. Before the diode is AC.
After the diode is DC.
Where electrons come from?
S*

There should always be a DC path around the diode, or the crystal radio
will not work.

Normally there is a tuned circuit at the input, which consists of a
coil and capacitor in parallel. The DC flows through the coil.

"The wire antennas used with crystal receivers are monopole antennas which
develop their output voltage with respect to ground. They require a return
circuit connected to ground (earth) so that the current from the antenna,
after passing through the receiver, can flow into the ground."

Unnormally you can have only the monopole antenna and the diode and ground.

What current is flowing between the diode and the ground?
Is it dependent on the distance from the transmitter?
S*

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"The wire antennas used with crystal receivers are monopole antennas which
develop their output voltage with respect to ground. They require a return
circuit connected to ground (earth) so that the current from the antenna,
after passing through the receiver, can flow into the ground."

Unnormally you can have only the monopole antenna and the diode and ground.

What current is flowing between the diode and the ground?
Is it dependent on the distance from the transmitter?
S*

Dear Szczepan,

I have explained to you how it works. That explanation is correct.
Please stop adding incorrect information and asking stupid questions.

I know two stupid Poles. Are there more?

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

In message , Szczepan
Bialek writes



"The wire antennas used with crystal receivers are monopole antennas

The words "almost always, almost every time, almost invariably and
almost without exception" are missing.

As crystal receivers are normally used at low frequencies (long and
medium wave), the obvious antenna to use is an end-fed long wire
monopole. This, of course, requires a ground.

However, in principle, you could use a (probably large) dipole, provided
you modified/designed the circuit of the receiver so that it would take
a balanced input (which would probably also be low impedance).

I'm pretty sure that some of the early radar receiving systems used
essentially a dipole antenna feeding a crystal receiver.





--
Ian

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

Jeff wrote:


I have explained to you how it works. That explanation is correct.
Please stop adding incorrect information and asking stupid questions.

I know two stupid Poles. Are there more?


Is that the same as a dipole?

A dipole consists of two poles. As some Poles can only count to
one, they will have a different explanation.

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Rob" napisa? w wiadomo?ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

napisa3 w wiadomo?ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

They jump off from the end (corona) after the time equal to speed of
light.
They do not flow from the transmitter to the end of antenna. They kick
the
next ones. It is the oscillatory flow.

You have been told time and time again that there is no corona in normal
antenna operation.

But is in unnormal operation. When it is seen?

Only when you output kilowatts of power and there is some point in
the antenna where the voltage is very high.

I was asking on the speed of electrons in the conductor.

No you were babbling about electrons jumping off the end of the antenna
yet again.

You have also been told many times that the speed of the electrons in the
conductor is less than a slow crawl.

How stupid are you that you are told these things time and again but
you still can't understand them?

But a radio amateur knows that it is possible to transmit signals with
arbitrarily low power and that the range becomes smaller but it still
works all the time. So even with very low voltages, where there is
no corona, a transmitter still transmits.

"Leakage current is also any current that flows when the ideal current is
zero".

No, leakage current is any current that is flowing in other than the
desired or designed path.

Real current is not the ideal one.

Gibberish; you are a babbling idiot.

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

napisa? w wiadomo?ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:


In AC electrons oscillate. In DC electrons are flowing for ages.
Where they come from?

No; in AC electrons periodically change directions and in DC electrons
flow in one direction only.

An antenna is a device that converts the electromagnetic energy which
antenna intercepts
into AC electrical energy at it's terminals.

A diode converts AC into DC.

The crystal radio antenna has only one terminal.

Utter nonsense.

Before the diode is AC.
After the diode is DC.
Where electrons come from?

The electrons are always in the conductors and they stay in the conductors,
they don't "come" from anywhere.

You are an ignorant, babbling, ineducable idiot who knows absolutely
NOTHING about how anything works.

An antenna is a device that converts the AC electrical energy at it's
teminals into electromagnetic energy which radiates from the antenna
and also coverts the electromagnetic energy which antenna intercepts
into AC electrical energy at it's terminals.

How many antennas have you built in your lifetime?

Why do you refuse to answer the question?

Is it because you have built zero antennas and you are trying to say all
the people that have successfully built hundreds that they are all wrong
and you don't want to admit you are an ignorant, inducable, idiot?

Why can't you obtain and read a university level textbook on anything
in any language?

Is it because you are too stupid to be able to understand the material?

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Rob" napisa? w wiadomo?ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

napisa3 w wiadomo?ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:


In AC electrons oscillate. In DC electrons are flowing for ages.
Where they come from?

No; in AC electrons periodically change directions and in DC electrons
flow in one direction only.

An antenna is a device that converts the electromagnetic energy which
antenna intercepts
into AC electrical energy at it's terminals.

A diode converts AC into DC.

The crystal radio antenna has only one terminal. Before the diode is AC.
After the diode is DC.
Where electrons come from?
S*

There should always be a DC path around the diode, or the crystal radio
will not work.

Normally there is a tuned circuit at the input, which consists of a
coil and capacitor in parallel. The DC flows through the coil.

"The wire antennas used with crystal receivers are monopole antennas which
develop their output voltage with respect to ground. They require a return
circuit connected to ground (earth) so that the current from the antenna,
after passing through the receiver, can flow into the ground."

Unnormally you can have only the monopole antenna and the diode and ground.

What current is flowing between the diode and the ground?
Is it dependent on the distance from the transmitter?
S*

You are an ignorant, babbling, ineducable idiot who knows absolutely
NOTHING about anything.

An antenna is a device that converts the AC electrical energy at it's
teminals into electromagnetic energy which radiates from the antenna
and also coverts the electromagnetic energy which antenna intercepts
into AC electrical energy at it's terminals.

Since an antenna is defined in terms of it's terminals, anything that
may be connected to the terminals, such as a balun, transmission line,
or diode has NOTHING to do with what the antenna is or how the antenna
operates.

What that also means is the current flows between the antenna terminals no
matter what type of antenna it is.

How many antennas have you built in your lifetime?

Why do you refuse to answer the question?

Is it because you have built zero antennas and you are trying to say all
the people that have successfully built hundreds that they are all wrong
and you don't want to admit you are an ignorant, inducable, idiot?

Why can't you obtain and read a university level textbook on anything
in any language?

Is it because you are too stupid to be able to understand the material?

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

"Ian Jackson" napisal w wiadomosci
...
In message , Szczepan Bialek
writes



"The wire antennas used with crystal receivers are monopole antennas

The words "almost always, almost every time, almost invariably and almost
without exception" are missing.

As crystal receivers are normally used at low frequencies (long and medium
wave), the obvious antenna to use is an end-fed long wire monopole. This,
of course, requires a ground.

However, in principle, you could use a (probably large) dipole, provided
you modified/designed the circuit of the receiver so that it would take a
balanced input (which would probably also be low impedance).

I'm pretty sure that some of the early radar receiving systems used
essentially a dipole antenna feeding a crystal receiver.

You are right:
"A simple rectenna element consists of a dipole antenna with a diode
connected across the dipole elements." And:
"A nantenna is a very small rectenna the size of a light wave, fabricated
using nanotechnology, which acts as an "antenna" for light,"

Each rectenna arm (or dipole element) must be shorter then 1/4 WL.

But: "Where the electrons come from?
S*

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , Szczepan
Bialek writes



"The wire antennas used with crystal receivers are monopole antennas

The words "almost always, almost every time, almost invariably and
almost without exception" are missing.

As crystal receivers are normally used at low frequencies (long and
medium wave), the obvious antenna to use is an end-fed long wire
monopole. This, of course, requires a ground.

However, in principle, you could use a (probably large) dipole, provided
you modified/designed the circuit of the receiver so that it would take
a balanced input (which would probably also be low impedance).

Or you could use a ferrite antenna with a coupling coil wound to
match the impedance.

Oh, wait, that would be a coil wound around a ferrite bar with no
ground connection whatsoever and no place for jumping electrons.

Good Lord, could it possibly work with no jumping electrons and no
ground?

I'm pretty sure that some of the early radar receiving systems used
essentially a dipole antenna feeding a crystal receiver.

Yes, some early microwave receivers were in essence crystal sets until
the components became available to build the stages necessary for a
superheterodyne receiver.

Most of the simple Gunn diode based door openers are also basically crystal
set receivers.

Where do electrons jump from in a horn antenna?

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

"Rob" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Jeff wrote:


I have explained to you how it works. That explanation is correct.
Please stop adding incorrect information and asking stupid questions.

I know two stupid Poles. Are there more?


Is that the same as a dipole?

A dipole consists of two poles.

Even if one is in air and the second in the ground?
"The quarter wave monopole antenna is a single element antenna fed at one
end, that behaves as a dipole antenna"
S*

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...


Even if one is in air and the second in the ground?
"The quarter wave monopole antenna is a single element antenna fed at one
end, that behaves as a dipole antenna"
S*

Good afternoon Szczepan. I see that, after several weeks and lots of
postings, you still do not understand the difference between a monopole and
a dipole. Please also note the phrase "behaves as".
Kindest regards, Ian.

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:


I was asking on the speed of electrons in the conductor.

No you were babbling about electrons jumping off the end of the antenna
yet again.

You have also been told many times that the speed of the electrons in the
conductor is less than a slow crawl.

The average speed.
The circuit with an antenna was named "open circuit" before Maxwell.
Maxwell discovered that the current is "prolongated" in the insulator
(displacement current) so the all circuits are "closed".
So at the bonduary the electrons must jump off. And come back.
In each textbooks is wrote that electrons jump off from a conductor and come
back.
But sometimes this phenomena is not symmetric.
S*

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

In message , Szczepan
Bialek writes

"Ian Jackson" napisal w wiadomosci
...
In message , Szczepan Bialek
writes



"The wire antennas used with crystal receivers are monopole antennas

The words "almost always, almost every time, almost invariably and almost
without exception" are missing.

As crystal receivers are normally used at low frequencies (long and medium
wave), the obvious antenna to use is an end-fed long wire monopole. This,
of course, requires a ground.

However, in principle, you could use a (probably large) dipole, provided
you modified/designed the circuit of the receiver so that it would take a
balanced input (which would probably also be low impedance).

I'm pretty sure that some of the early radar receiving systems used
essentially a dipole antenna feeding a crystal receiver.

You are right:
"A simple rectenna element consists of a dipole antenna with a diode
connected across the dipole elements." And:
"A nantenna is a very small rectenna the size of a light wave, fabricated
using nanotechnology, which acts as an "antenna" for light,"

Each rectenna arm (or dipole element) must be shorter then 1/4 WL.

But: "Where the electrons come from?
S*

The product of a deranged mind?
--
Ian

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

U¿ytkownik "Ian" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...


Even if one is in air and the second in the ground?
"The quarter wave monopole antenna is a single element antenna fed at one
end, that behaves as a dipole antenna"
S*

Good afternoon Szczepan. I see that, after several weeks and lots of
postings, you still do not understand the difference between a monopole
and a dipole. Please also note the phrase "behaves as".

"behaves as"means that radiate the same as the real dipole.

"I see that, after several weeks and lots of postings, you still do not
understand the difference between the Hertz dipole and Marconi antenna."

Kindest regards,
S*

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

napisa? w wiadomo?ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:


I was asking on the speed of electrons in the conductor.

No you were babbling about electrons jumping off the end of the antenna
yet again.

You have also been told many times that the speed of the electrons in the
conductor is less than a slow crawl.

The average speed.
The circuit with an antenna was named "open circuit" before Maxwell.
Maxwell discovered that the current is "prolongated" in the insulator
(displacement current) so the all circuits are "closed".
So at the bonduary the electrons must jump off. And come back.
In each textbooks is wrote that electrons jump off from a conductor and come
back.
But sometimes this phenomena is not symmetric.
S*

Everything you just wrote is babbling, moronic, nonsense.

You are an ignorant, babbling, ineducable idiot who knows absolutely
NOTHING about how anything works.

How many antennas have you built in your lifetime?

Why do you refuse to answer the question?

Is it because you have built zero antennas and you are trying to say all
the people that have successfully built hundreds that they are all wrong
and you don't want to admit you are an ignorant, inducable, idiot?

Why can't you obtain and read a university level textbook on anything
in any language?

Is it because you are too stupid to be able to understand the material?

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

U?ytkownik "Ian" napisa? w wiadomo?ci
...
"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...


Even if one is in air and the second in the ground?
"The quarter wave monopole antenna is a single element antenna fed at one
end, that behaves as a dipole antenna"
S*

Good afternoon Szczepan. I see that, after several weeks and lots of
postings, you still do not understand the difference between a monopole
and a dipole. Please also note the phrase "behaves as".

"behaves as"means that radiate the same as the real dipole.

"I see that, after several weeks and lots of postings, you still do not
understand the difference between the Hertz dipole and Marconi antenna."

Kindest regards,
S*

You are an ignorant, babbling, ineducable idiot who knows absolutely
NOTHING about anything.

You don't even understand what an antenna is or the difference between
an electric field, a magnetic field, and an electromagnetic field.

An antenna is a device that converts the AC electrical energy at it's
teminals into electromagnetic energy which radiates from the antenna
and also coverts the electromagnetic energy which antenna intercepts
into AC electrical energy at it's terminals.

Since an antenna is defined in terms of its geometry with respect to its
terminals, anything that may be connected to the terminals, such as a balun,
transmission line, or ground has NOTHING to do with what the antenna is or
how the antenna operates.

How many antennas have you built in your lifetime?

Why do you refuse to answer the question?

Is it because you have built zero antennas and you are trying to say all
the people that have successfully built hundreds that they are all wrong
and you don't want to admit you are an ignorant, inducable, idiot?

Why can't you obtain and read a university level textbook on anything
in any language?

Is it because you are too stupid to be able to understand the material?

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Ian Jackson" napisal w wiadomosci
...
In message , Szczepan Bialek
writes



"The wire antennas used with crystal receivers are monopole antennas

The words "almost always, almost every time, almost invariably and almost
without exception" are missing.

As crystal receivers are normally used at low frequencies (long and medium
wave), the obvious antenna to use is an end-fed long wire monopole. This,
of course, requires a ground.

However, in principle, you could use a (probably large) dipole, provided
you modified/designed the circuit of the receiver so that it would take a
balanced input (which would probably also be low impedance).

I'm pretty sure that some of the early radar receiving systems used
essentially a dipole antenna feeding a crystal receiver.

You are right:
"A simple rectenna element consists of a dipole antenna with a diode
connected across the dipole elements." And:
"A nantenna is a very small rectenna the size of a light wave, fabricated
using nanotechnology, which acts as an "antenna" for light,"

Each rectenna arm (or dipole element) must be shorter then 1/4 WL.

But: "Where the electrons come from?
S*

The same as any other antenna; they are always in the conductor and don't
"come" from anywhere.

The voltage developed at the antenna terminals causes the electrons in
the conductors to move.

You are an ignorant, babbling, ineducable idiot who knows absolutely
NOTHING about how anything works.

An antenna is a device that converts the AC electrical energy at it's
teminals into electromagnetic energy which radiates from the antenna
and also coverts the electromagnetic energy which antenna intercepts
into AC electrical energy at it's terminals.

How many antennas have you built in your lifetime?

Why do you refuse to answer the question?

Is it because you have built zero antennas and you are trying to say all
the people that have successfully built hundreds that they are all wrong
and you don't want to admit you are an ignorant, inducable, idiot?

Why can't you obtain and read a university level textbook on anything
in any language?

Is it because you are too stupid to be able to understand the material?

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:


I was asking on the speed of electrons in the conductor.

No you were babbling about electrons jumping off the end of the antenna
yet again.

You have also been told many times that the speed of the electrons in the
conductor is less than a slow crawl.

The average speed.
The circuit with an antenna was named "open circuit" before Maxwell.
Maxwell discovered that the current is "prolongated" in the insulator
(displacement current) so the all circuits are "closed".
So at the bonduary the electrons must jump off. And come back.
In each textbooks is wrote that electrons jump off from a conductor and come
back.
But sometimes this phenomena is not symmetric.

You still have not explained how it is possible that the behaviour
is not symmetric and still there is no nonlinearity in the antenna.

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

On 7/25/2012 11:26 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:

Good afternoon Szczepan. I see that, after several weeks and lots of
postings, you still do not understand the difference between a monopole
and a dipole. Please also note the phrase "behaves as".

"behaves as"means that radiate the same as the real dipole.

"I see that, after several weeks and lots of postings, you still do not
understand the difference between the Hertz dipole and Marconi antenna."

Kindest regards,
S*

As I've said before - "What a maroon!"

He don't get it. Or he's a troll.

It matters little, you all keep feeding him.

Stop.

tom
K0TAR

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
.. .

"The wire antennas used with crystal receivers are monopole antennas which
develop their output voltage with respect to ground. They require a return
circuit connected to ground (earth) so that the current from the antenna,
after passing through the receiver, can flow into the ground."

I had a crystal radio & the antenna was a piece of wire hanging out of it &
the radio was built in a wooden box & I could listen to it on the second
floor of a wooden building & sitting on a wooden chair. no connection to the
ground (earth) as you say is required & the station I listened to was a
daytime station located about 50 miles away...How did it work & no
connection to the ground (earth) as you say is required & no battery power &
the crystal had a cat wisker for tuning...

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

"Howard K0ACF" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
.. .

"The wire antennas used with crystal receivers are monopole antennas
which develop their output voltage with respect to ground. They require a
return circuit connected to ground (earth) so that the current from the
antenna, after passing through the receiver, can flow into the ground."

I had a crystal radio & the antenna was a piece of wire hanging out of it
& the radio was built in a wooden box & I could listen to it on the second
floor of a wooden building & sitting on a wooden chair. no connection to
the ground (earth) as you say is required & the station I listened to was
a daytime station located about 50 miles away...How did it work & no
connection to the ground (earth) as you say is required & no battery power
& the crystal had a cat wisker for tuning...

Ian wrote:
"Normally there is a tuned circuit at the input, which consists of a
coil and capacitor in parallel. The DC flows through the coil.

At the output there either is a high-impedance magnetic headphone,
which conducts DC through its coil, or a crystal headphone with a
resistor in parallel for the DC path."

Next the DC flows into "ground":
"The use of the term ground (or earth) is so common in electrical and
electronics applications that circuits in portable electronic devices such
as cell phones and media players as well as circuits in vehicles such as
ships, aircraft, and spacecraft may be spoken of as having a "ground"
connection without any actual connection to the Earth. This is usually a
large conductor attached to one side of the power supply (such as the
"ground plane" on a printed circuit board) which serves as the common return
path for current from many different components in the circuit." From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_(electricity)

Each charged body (conductor and insulator) losts the charge (leakage) with
time.

Add the additional real ground and tell us the results.
S*

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Howard K0ACF" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
.. .

"The wire antennas used with crystal receivers are monopole antennas
which develop their output voltage with respect to ground. They require a
return circuit connected to ground (earth) so that the current from the
antenna, after passing through the receiver, can flow into the ground."

I had a crystal radio & the antenna was a piece of wire hanging out of it
& the radio was built in a wooden box & I could listen to it on the second
floor of a wooden building & sitting on a wooden chair. no connection to
the ground (earth) as you say is required & the station I listened to was
a daytime station located about 50 miles away...How did it work & no
connection to the ground (earth) as you say is required & no battery power
& the crystal had a cat wisker for tuning...

Ian wrote:
"Normally there is a tuned circuit at the input, which consists of a
coil and capacitor in parallel. The DC flows through the coil.

At the output there either is a high-impedance magnetic headphone,
which conducts DC through its coil, or a crystal headphone with a
resistor in parallel for the DC path."

Next the DC flows into "ground":

NO NO NO NO NO!!!!

The DC flows in a circle inside the receiver!!!

When you see the schematic diagram of a working crystal receiver,
you can make a trip trough the diode, through other components in
the receiver, all conducting DC, back to the the point where you
started at the diode.

This path must exist and this is where the DC flows.
When there is no such path, a DC voltage equal to the peak value
of the HF voltage will develop across the diode, the diode will
no longer conduct, and there is no more rectification. Hence the
receiver will not work.

This is not related to "ground". There must be HF voltage at
the input of the receiver, but it is not important if it is between
a monopole antenna and ground or between the poles of a dipole.

You can even make a crystal receiver with a ferrite rod as an
antenna, which will operate without any ground.

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

"Rob" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

napisa3 w wiadomo?ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:


I was asking on the speed of electrons in the conductor.

No you were babbling about electrons jumping off the end of the antenna
yet again.

You have also been told many times that the speed of the electrons in
the
conductor is less than a slow crawl.

The average speed.
The circuit with an antenna was named "open circuit" before Maxwell.
Maxwell discovered that the current is "prolongated" in the insulator
(displacement current) so the all circuits are "closed".
So at the bonduary the electrons must jump off. And come back.
In each textbooks is wrote that electrons jump off from a conductor and
come
back.
But sometimes this phenomena is not symmetric.

You still have not explained how it is possible that the behaviour
is not symmetric and still there is no nonlinearity in the antenna.

The oscillatory flow of electrons is inherently not symmetric.
Always some of them jump off from the antenna end. VSWR =1 means that all
jumps off.

It should be obvious for you if you see the electrons in the wire.
For Pointing there no electrons. There are only fields around the wire.
He wrote: " Formerly a current was regarded as something traveling along a
conductor, attention being chiefly directed to the conductor, and the energy
which appeared at any part of the circuit, if considered at all, was
supposed to be conveyed thither through the conductor by the current. "

And next: "The aim of this paper is to prove that there is a general law for
the transfer of energy, according to which it moves at any point
perpendicularly to the plane containing the lines of electric force and
magnetic force, and that the amount crossing unit of area per second of this
plane is equal to the product of the intensities of the two forces,
multiplied by the sine of the angle between them, divided by , while the
direction of flow of energy is that in which a right-handed screw would move
if turned round from the positive direction of the electromotive to the
positive direction of the magnetic intensity".

The teachers buy it.

Before Haeviside and Pointing was " something traveling along a conductor".
What do you prefer: electrons or fields?
S*

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

U¿ytkownik "Rob" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Howard K0ACF" napisa3 w wiadomo?ci
...

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
.. .

"The wire antennas used with crystal receivers are monopole antennas
which develop their output voltage with respect to ground. They require
a
return circuit connected to ground (earth) so that the current from the
antenna, after passing through the receiver, can flow into the ground."

I had a crystal radio & the antenna was a piece of wire hanging out of
it
& the radio was built in a wooden box & I could listen to it on the
second
floor of a wooden building & sitting on a wooden chair. no connection to
the ground (earth) as you say is required & the station I listened to
was
a daytime station located about 50 miles away...How did it work & no
connection to the ground (earth) as you say is required & no battery
power
& the crystal had a cat wisker for tuning...

Ian wrote:
"Normally there is a tuned circuit at the input, which consists of a
coil and capacitor in parallel. The DC flows through the coil.

At the output there either is a high-impedance magnetic headphone,
which conducts DC through its coil, or a crystal headphone with a
resistor in parallel for the DC path."

Next the DC flows into "ground":

NO NO NO NO NO!!!!

The DC flows in a circle inside the receiver!!!

When you see the schematic diagram of a working crystal receiver,
you can make a trip trough the diode, through other components in
the receiver, all conducting DC, back to the the point where you
started at the diode.

This path must exist and this is where the DC flows.

The path is the ground: "The use of the term ground (or earth) is so common
in electrical and
electronics applications that circuits in portable electronic devices such
as cell phones and media players as well as circuits in vehicles such as
ships, aircraft, and spacecraft may be spoken of as having a "ground"
connection without any actual connection to the Earth. This is usually a
large conductor attached to one side of the power supply "

When there is no such path, a DC voltage equal to the peak value
of the HF voltage will develop across the diode, the diode will
no longer conduct, and there is no more rectification. Hence the
receiver will not work.

This is not related to "ground". There must be HF voltage at
the input of the receiver, but it is not important if it is between
a monopole antenna and ground or between the poles of a dipole.

Each voltage disappear (leakage) with the time. That before diode and that
after. The leakage is always and everywhere.
The leakage is surface and humidity dependent.

You can even make a crystal receiver with a ferrite rod as an
antenna, which will operate without any ground.

Leakage do the work.
S*

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Rob" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

napisa3 w wiadomo?ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:


I was asking on the speed of electrons in the conductor.

No you were babbling about electrons jumping off the end of the antenna
yet again.

You have also been told many times that the speed of the electrons in
the
conductor is less than a slow crawl.

The average speed.
The circuit with an antenna was named "open circuit" before Maxwell.
Maxwell discovered that the current is "prolongated" in the insulator
(displacement current) so the all circuits are "closed".
So at the bonduary the electrons must jump off. And come back.
In each textbooks is wrote that electrons jump off from a conductor and
come
back.
But sometimes this phenomena is not symmetric.

You still have not explained how it is possible that the behaviour
is not symmetric and still there is no nonlinearity in the antenna.

The oscillatory flow of electrons is inherently not symmetric.

You keep claiming that. But you don't explain why there is no
nonlinearity in the antenna. When the antenna is nonlinear, as you
claim, there must be intermodulation in the antenna. But in a well
constructed antenna, there is no intermodulation. So there is
no unsymmetric flow of electrons.

I don't care what people have written in the 19th century. Please
stop bringing that up. I am only interested in how things are
explained today.

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"Normally there is a tuned circuit at the input, which consists of a
coil and capacitor in parallel. The DC flows through the coil.

At the output there either is a high-impedance magnetic headphone,
which conducts DC through its coil, or a crystal headphone with a
resistor in parallel for the DC path."

Next the DC flows into "ground":

NO NO NO NO NO!!!!

The DC flows in a circle inside the receiver!!!

When you see the schematic diagram of a working crystal receiver,
you can make a trip trough the diode, through other components in
the receiver, all conducting DC, back to the the point where you
started at the diode.

This path must exist and this is where the DC flows.

The path is the ground:

Can't you read?
Or are you even dumber than I already think?

The path is not to the ground. It is a circle inside the receiver.

When there is no such path, a DC voltage equal to the peak value
of the HF voltage will develop across the diode, the diode will
no longer conduct, and there is no more rectification. Hence the
receiver will not work.

This is not related to "ground". There must be HF voltage at
the input of the receiver, but it is not important if it is between
a monopole antenna and ground or between the poles of a dipole.

Each voltage disappear (leakage) with the time. That before diode and that
after. The leakage is always and everywhere.
The leakage is surface and humidity dependent.

Only a bad designer will design equipment that requires leakage to
operate. Of course there will be some bad schematics of crystal receivers
around, where there is no obvious DC path around the diode, and maybe
sometimes (depending on construction details) one may be able to hear
some sound, but it is NOT the way it should be done and it is NOT the
explanation of the workings of the receiver.
Except maybe to someone in 1900, who did not understand it fully.

You can even make a crystal receiver with a ferrite rod as an
antenna, which will operate without any ground.

Leakage do the work.

I think leakage has done the work to your brain. Leakage from the
beer bottle, that is.

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

"Rob" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"Normally there is a tuned circuit at the input, which consists of a
coil and capacitor in parallel. The DC flows through the coil.

At the output there either is a high-impedance magnetic headphone,
which conducts DC through its coil, or a crystal headphone with a
resistor in parallel for the DC path."

Next the DC flows into "ground":

NO NO NO NO NO!!!!

The DC flows in a circle inside the receiver!!!

When you see the schematic diagram of a working crystal receiver,
you can make a trip trough the diode, through other components in
the receiver, all conducting DC, back to the the point where you
started at the diode.

This path must exist and this is where the DC flows.

The path is the ground:

Can't you read?
Or are you even dumber than I already think?

The path is not to the ground. It is a circle inside the receiver.

When there is no such path, a DC voltage equal to the peak value
of the HF voltage will develop across the diode, the diode will
no longer conduct, and there is no more rectification. Hence the
receiver will not work.

This is not related to "ground". There must be HF voltage at
the input of the receiver, but it is not important if it is between
a monopole antenna and ground or between the poles of a dipole.

Each voltage disappear (leakage) with the time. That before diode and
that
after. The leakage is always and everywhere.
The leakage is surface and humidity dependent.

Only a bad designer will design equipment that requires leakage to
operate.

Quit opposite. Only the best know what the counterpoise is. The leakage
supply or expel the electrons to/from it.

See:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=j3h...434678&f=false

The Figs 8 and 9 with the Claim 2.
For what there are so many elements. The simple path should be enough (if
you are right).
Of course there will be some bad schematics of crystal receivers
around, where there is no obvious DC path around the diode, and maybe
sometimes (depending on construction details) one may be able to hear
some sound, but it is NOT the way it should be done and it is NOT the
explanation of the workings of the receiver.
Except maybe to someone in 1900, who did not understand it fully.

They fully understand it. They discovered the induction and the leakage (in
electrostatics).
You simply do not understand that your path is the countrpoise.

You can even make a crystal receiver with a ferrite rod as an
antenna, which will operate without any ground.

Leakage do the work.

I think leakage has done the work to your brain. Leakage from the
beer bottle, that is.

Leakage can transfer the charge from one body to the another.
The same should apply to "brain to brain".
S*

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
.. .

See:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=j3h...434678&f=false

S*
Ah - we're back to the rectenna which is defined in Wiki thus "A simple
rectenna element consists of a dipole antenna with a diode connected across
the dipole elements".

ttfn, Ian.

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

"Rob" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

The oscillatory flow of electrons is inherently not symmetric.

You keep claiming that. But you don't explain why there is no
nonlinearity in the antenna. When the antenna is nonlinear, as you
claim, there must be intermodulation in the antenna. But in a well
constructed antenna, there is no intermodulation. So there is
no unsymmetric flow of electrons.

I don't care what people have written in the 19th century. Please
stop bringing that up. I am only interested in how things are
explained today.

Everything was discovered in XIX (for the radio):
"The electrical waves produced by the oscillations at A traveled along the
wires and were reflected at the far ends. Lodge knew that the longer spark
at B3 was due to what he called the "recoil impulse" or "recoil kick" at the
end of the wires where the waves were reflected.[4] At spark gap B3 both the
incident wave and the reflected wave had their maximum values and were in
phase. This produced a voltage twice as large as the voltage at spark gap A.
From: http://www.antiquewireless.org/otb/lodge1102.htm

Is it still true?

If yes, than you must admit that the leakage must be stronger at "recoil
kick" when the voltage is doubled.
"So there is the unsymmetrical flow of electrons." Do you agree?
S*

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:
Only a bad designer will design equipment that requires leakage to
operate.

Quit opposite. Only the best know what the counterpoise is. The leakage
supply or expel the electrons to/from it.

Hogwash.

See:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=j3h...434678&f=false

The Figs 8 and 9 with the Claim 2.
For what there are so many elements. The simple path should be enough (if
you are right).

There is no counterpoise in this antenna.
The full-wave bridge rectifiers provide a DC path through the load
without requiring a DC path in the dipole.

Many elements are used because this antenna is supposed to operate
on microwave, and thus a single element has only a very small capture
area. You stack a lot of them to enlarge the capture area, which is
required to capture all the signals at the point of focus.

Except maybe to someone in 1900, who did not understand it fully.

They fully understand it. They discovered the induction and the leakage (in
electrostatics).
You simply do not understand that your path is the countrpoise.

No, the problem is that I do understand how those circuits work and
you don't. Then you fall back to what was written in 1889 instead of
looking at the design with today's knowledge.

You can even make a crystal receiver with a ferrite rod as an
antenna, which will operate without any ground.

Leakage do the work.

I think leakage has done the work to your brain. Leakage from the
beer bottle, that is.

Leakage can transfer the charge from one body to the another.
The same should apply to "brain to brain".

You are too far gone to understand what the bottle has done to you.

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:
I don't care what people have written in the 19th century. Please
stop bringing that up. I am only interested in how things are
explained today.

Everything was discovered in XIX (for the radio):

But then later it was found that the first discoveries were not
entirely correctly described.

"The electrical waves produced by the oscillations at A traveled along the
wires and were reflected at the far ends. Lodge knew that the longer spark
at B3 was due to what he called the "recoil impulse" or "recoil kick" at the
end of the wires where the waves were reflected.[4] At spark gap B3 both the
incident wave and the reflected wave had their maximum values and were in
phase. This produced a voltage twice as large as the voltage at spark gap A.
From: http://www.antiquewireless.org/otb/lodge1102.htm

Is it still true?

A reflected wave along a nonterminated transmission line will result in
doubled voltage at the open end.

If yes, than you must admit that the leakage must be stronger at "recoil
kick" when the voltage is doubled.
"So there is the unsymmetrical flow of electrons." Do you agree?

But here you are talking complete hogwash again. The effect you describe
above has nothing to do with leakage or unsymmetrical flow of electrons.

UK earthling - was: Dipole-2 different wire sizes?
 

"Ian" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
.. .

See:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=j3h...434678&f=false

S*
Ah - we're back to the rectenna which is defined in Wiki thus "A simple
rectenna element consists of a dipole antenna with a diode connected
across the dipole elements".

Here you are the simple:
http://www.ac-grenoble.fr/yre/agency...e/rap-nuc2.htm

Are the dipole elements symmetrical?
It seems that one of them is a counterpoise.
S*