The main difference is about 30 or so hours of memorizing the test questions to pass a test, not much different, only experience makes the difference and some of the CBers that have tall towers with beams and home built amps may have many of the same experiences as a Ham that does something similar, it certainly seems true when you listen to the 75 meter band in the US, it sounds little different than the CB AM channels. If you listen around the so called out of band side band CB operators except for a much busier level of traffic it sounds little different. maybe the NO CODE new Hams have brought their 11 meter experiences with them and it has blended together. My love of the radio hobby came first with SWL then CB and now a Ham of over 20 years, I still value ALL of my experiences and see little differences now or when I was 10 hungering to hear and speak to someone on my one channel 100 milli-watt walkie talkie. Being across the pond in the USA, I often tune your FM CB channels in the UK to see if any likely 10 meter operators in Europe are around. The same is done for New Zealand and other places that differ from the standard 40 of the US increasing the chance of hearing the weaker CB signals and knowing if 10 or 12 is populated a contact is more likely to those areas of the world..

On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 2:12:14 PM UTC-6, gareth wrote:
With the onset of automatic ATUs, is the the final technical

skill that disambiguates the radio amateur from the CBer

being lost?

I've never seen a case where the use of an automatic antenna tuner
drained antenna related knowledge from the operators brain pan.

In message ,
writes
On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 2:12:14 PM UTC-6, gareth wrote:
With the onset of automatic ATUs, is the the final technical

skill that disambiguates the radio amateur from the CBer

being lost?

I've never seen a case where the use of an automatic antenna tuner
drained antenna related knowledge from the operators brain pan.

Could that be because the knowledge was never there in the first place?

Because of the increase of domestic interference, the use of endfed
antennas - fed at the shack (house) end - is now definitely a 'bad
thing', whereas a remote feed usually results in fewer interference
problems.

The advent of remote tuners has been a godsend, as it obviates the need
to devise cunning methods of performing the remote adjustments. However,
I'm sure that there are now some amateurs who have the attitude "If I
sling a random length of wire in the air, and stick an auto-tuner on it,
it'll work just fine". As a result, the art of matching antennas has
become de-skilled, and we no longer need to have any idea whatsoever
about 'how things work'. Is this a 'good thing'?
--
Ian

"Ian Jackson" wrote in message
...
As a result, the art of matching antennas has become de-skilled, and we
no longer need to have any idea whatsoever about 'how things work'. Is
this a 'good thing'?

No, which is my point exactly.

An interest in how things work is the inexorable basis of amateur radio.

Here is my take on a FAQ which opines just that ...

-----ooooo-----



Q. What is Ham Radio?

A. Ham Radio is a technical pursuit for those who
are interested in the science of radio wave
propagation and who are also interested in the
way that their radios function. It has a long-standing
tradition of providing a source of engineers who
are born naturals.

Ham Radio awakens in its aficionados a whole-life
fascination with all things technical and gives
an all-abiding curiosity to improve one's scientific
knowledge. It's a great swimming pool, please dive in!

This excitement causes a wish to share the experience
with ones fellow man, and shows itself in the
gentlemanly traditions of Ham Radio.

Radio Hams are in a unique privileged position in that
they can construct and operate their own equipment! No-one
else has this privilege. Users, such as broadcasters,
the po lice and armed farces, CBers and mobile phone
users have to purchase ready-made gear. Manufacturers
are not licensed to operate their gear. Radio Hams
are qualified to design, build and then
operate their own pieces of equipment. They do this
with gusto, and also repair and modify their own
equipment. This is a privilege well worth the effort
to gain, and one to be jealously guarded.

The excitement that drives a Radio Ham starts with
relatively simple technologies at first, perhaps making
his own Wimshurst machine and primary cells. Small pieces
of test equipment follow, possibly multimeters and signal
generators. Then comes receivers and transmitters. It is with
the latter that communication with like-minded technically
motivated people takes off. The scope for technical
development grows with the years and now encompasses DSP
and DDS. There is also a great deal
of excitement in the areas of computer programming to
be learnt and applied.

The technical excitement motivates Radio Hams to compete
with each other to determine who has designed and manufactured
the best-quality station. This competitiveness is found in DXing,
competitions and fox-hunts.

-----ooooo----

However, beware! A Ham Radio licence is such a
desirable thing to have that there are large
numbers of people who wish to be thought of
as Radio Hams when, in fact, they are nothing
of the kind! Usually such people are a
variation of the CB Radio hobbyist; they buy their
radios off the shelf and send them back to be
repaired; they are not interested in technical discussion
and sneer at those who are; they have no idea how
their radios work inside and have no wish to find out;
they are free with rather silly personal insults.


-----ooooo-----

One infallible way to disambiguate the CB Radio Hobbyist
from the _REAL_ Radio Ham is to solicit their view of the
difference between CB Radio and Ham Radio. A Radio Ham will
perceive Ham Radio to be a technical pursuit and will
perceive CB Radio to be a social communications facility
no different in essence to a land-line telephone or a
GSM mobile in the hands of a 6-year-old. Thus a Radio Ham
could also use a CB set safe in the knowledge that
such use says no more about him than having a land-line
telephone, whilst continuing to regard Ham Radio as a separate
technical pursuit.

A CB Radio hobbyist, on the other hand, sees no difference between
Ham Radio and CB Radio. To him, they are
sisters-under-the-skin. Wrongly, the CB Radio Hobbyist then
tries to classify himself as the equal of the Radio
Ham when, in fact, he is nothing of the kind.

Ham Radio is not CB Radio and has no common ground with it!
Ham Radio is _THE_ technical pursuit for gentlemen; CB Radio
is the name for the operating hobby for those who buy their
rigs and equipment off the shelf.

-----ooooo-----

If you are the sort of person who is motivated by
a technical interest in how things work; if you took apart
malfunctioning clocks, toasters and the like and put them
right despite never having seen them working, then
a Ham Radio licence is your traditional route! There has
never been a shortage of such people, and those who gravitate
towards such an interest have always been welcomed into
our shacks and their interests fostered. There is not today,
nor has there ever been, a need to go out and encourage
and press children, children who have never expressed an
interest in Ham Radio, to come into our shacks. Such an
activity should cause eyebrows to be raised - what
normal well-adjusted adults seek the social acquaintance
of children?!

-----ooooo-----

Please remember that this FAQ is a _POSITIVE EXHORTATION_
to you to exert yourselves to join our fraternity!

On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 5:21:37 AM UTC-6, Ian Jackson wrote:


The advent of remote tuners has been a godsend, as it obviates the need

to devise cunning methods of performing the remote adjustments. However,

I'm sure that there are now some amateurs who have the attitude "If I

sling a random length of wire in the air, and stick an auto-tuner on it,

it'll work just fine". As a result, the art of matching antennas has

become de-skilled, and we no longer need to have any idea whatsoever

about 'how things work'. Is this a 'good thing'?

--

Ian

I'm not really seeing it as some mass problem. Most of the people
I know that decided to use an ATU did so because of some specific
reason. Not because they can't match an antenna to a feed line.
Myself, I find the whole topic as kind of silly. And to drag the
poor CBer's into it, even more silly.

I've never used an ATU. Ever. Nada. Zip. So what.. Does that mean
I'm extra gifted when it comes to matching antennas to feed lines?
If you all want to believe so, be my guests.. :/

I do own and use some manual tuners, but none of my everyday
antennas require them. They are used more for special setups,
portable, etc.

wrote in message
...
Myself, I find the whole topic as kind of silly. And to drag the
poor CBer's into it, even more silly.


The topic is a very serious one, the decline of amateur radio to
become indistinghuishable from CB radio, save for a few extra
bands, etc, and the arrival on the scene of auto tuners in danger
of being one of the last nails in the coffin.

On Thursday, February 13, 2014 4:29:12 AM UTC-6, gareth wrote:
wrote in message

...

Myself, I find the whole topic as kind of silly. And to drag the

poor CBer's into it, even more silly.





The topic is a very serious one, the decline of amateur radio to

become indistinghuishable from CB radio, save for a few extra

bands, etc, and the arrival on the scene of auto tuners in danger

of being one of the last nails in the coffin.

Says who? You? Auto tuners have been around for years and years,
and have nothing to do with the state of Amateur Radio.
Amateur Radio is declining because is a lack of overall interest,
and the use of the internet for instant global communications.
Among other things.. But trust me, ATU's have nothing to do with it.
:|

On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 11:21:37 +0000, Ian Jackson wrote:

Because of the increase of domestic interference, the use of endfed
antennas - fed at the shack (house) end - is now definitely a 'bad
thing',
whereas a remote feed usually results in fewer interference problems.

My inverted L is matched at the base of the vertical section at the
bottom of the garden. I use an AAMU that works from 160m to 6m, it's
battery powered with the latter being charged by a solar cell panel.

Now, I could easily make a matching unit from discrete components and
remotely control adjustment, by wireless or wire. I could use RF sensing
to drive a controller. Or I could let the AAMU take the strain so I can
spend my precious spare time doing radio stuff that really interests me -
like SDR. I also enjoy spending time in the company of friends and wife.



--
M0WYM
Sales @ radiowymsey
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Sales-At-Radio-Wymsey/
http://sales-at-radio-wymsey.ebid.net/

Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , writes
On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 2:12:14 PM UTC-6, gareth wrote:
With the onset of automatic ATUs, is the the final technical

skill that disambiguates the radio amateur from the CBer

being lost?

I've never seen a case where the use of an automatic antenna tuner
drained antenna related knowledge from the operators brain pan.

Could that be because the knowledge was never there in the first place?

Unlikely for newcomers in the UK as adjusting an ATU is an assessed
practical part of the Foundation (=Technician) exam.

Of course, it is possible that those who went through the previous scheme
never learned such skills

I find newcomers learn it, and understand why it is required, after a few
moments tuition.

Thankfully, like loading a PA, once mastered it is a skill you tend to
remember.


Because of the increase of domestic interference, the use of endfed
antennas - fed at the shack (house) end - is now definitely a 'bad
thing', whereas a remote feed usually results in fewer interference problems.


The remotely fed end fed is my 'go to' antenna for beginners. It is
generally the lowest profile, avoids the need for a 'drop' in the middle of
the garden, and will give good results with just one counterpoise (
although more are better).

If an auto ATU is outside the budget, a remote ATU can be built. This can
be as simple as slow electric motors (ex electric screw drivers) driving a
variable Capacitor and roller coaster arrangement, controller from the
shack. Depending on the ability / wishes of the owner, extra circuitry can
be added to provide more complex control and/ or display.

The advent of remote tuners has been a godsend, as it obviates the need
to devise cunning methods of performing the remote adjustments. However,
I'm sure that there are now some amateurs who have the attitude "If I
sling a random length of wire in the air, and stick an auto-tuner on it,
it'll work just fine". As a result, the art of matching antennas has
become de-skilled, and we no longer need to have any idea whatsoever
about 'how things work'. Is this a 'good thing'?

As long as the basic skill has been learned, is it ever really lost? I'm
not loaded up every valve PA but I would not like to think I would be
flummoxed by an unknown but obviously similar design.

"Brian Reay" wrote in message
...

Unlikely for newcomers in the UK as adjusting an ATU is an assessed
practical part of the Foundation (=Technician) exam.
Of course, it is possible that those who went through the previous scheme
never learned such skills

Thankfully, like loading a PA, once mastered it is a skill you tend to
remember.

As long as the basic skill has been learned, is it ever really lost? I'm
not loaded up every valve PA but I would not like to think I would be
flummoxed by an unknown but obviously similar design.