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Old July 13th 15, 12:45 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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Default Do antennas radiate photons?


"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...

Yep, antennas radiate photons.

+1
There is not any proof that RF behaves differently than light.
Things are already quite complicated without it :-)


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Old July 13th 15, 03:59 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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Default Do antennas radiate photons?

On Mon, 13 Jul 2015 13:45:43 +0200, "bilou" wrote:

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
.. .


Yep, antennas radiate photons.

+1
There is not any proof that RF behaves differently than light.
Things are already quite complicated without it :-)


One of my not so great ideas was to devise a contraption that would
let me "see" RF. It certainly would make troubleshooting RF devices
much easier. Essentially, it would be a human eye analog implimented
with RF components. According to theory, if it works for light, it
should also work for RF. At the time, I was working at about 1GHz.
Light is about 400 THz. So, all I need is an eyeball that's 400,000
times larger than the human eye. I'll give myself a -1 for the idea.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
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Old July 13th 15, 04:33 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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Default Do antennas radiate photons?



"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...

On Mon, 13 Jul 2015 13:45:43 +0200, "bilou" wrote:

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
. ..


Yep, antennas radiate photons.

+1
There is not any proof that RF behaves differently than light.
Things are already quite complicated without it :-)


One of my not so great ideas was to devise a contraption that would
let me "see" RF. It certainly would make troubleshooting RF devices
much easier. Essentially, it would be a human eye analog implimented
with RF components. According to theory, if it works for light, it
should also work for RF. At the time, I was working at about 1GHz.
Light is about 400 THz. So, all I need is an eyeball that's 400,000
times larger than the human eye. I'll give myself a -1 for the idea.


Wouldn't such a gadget be awesome for adjusting antennas!

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Old July 13th 15, 08:23 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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Default Do antennas radiate photons?

On 7/12/2015 7:31 PM, wrote:
FBMBoomer wrote:
On 7/11/2015 1:04 PM,
wrote:
rickman wrote:
On 7/11/2015 11:33 AM, Wayne wrote:
“The antenna, like the eye, is a transformation device converting
electromagnetic
photons into circuit currents; but, unlike the eye, the antenna can also
convert energy
from a circuit into photons radiated into space. In simplest terms an
antenna converts
photons to currents or vice versa.” Antennas, Second Edition, 1988, by John
D. Kraus. Page 19.

What about it? Is there some reason why RF photons should not exist?

There are a lot of people that believe that light is somehow special
and the dual nature of all electromagnetic radiation doesn't exist.

Most of them base this on the fact that it is impossible with current
technology to detect a single photon at frequencies lower than light.



Radiating RF at the same wavelength as light will produce an
electromagnetic field that is not visible to any eye.


Babble; light IS electromagnetic radiation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light

If you think that photons will be converted to electric current on an
antenna, try flashing a light on any antenna and check for results.


Babble; antennas for light frequencies have been contructed in labs and
guess what, they produce a voltage. Research continues to make them
a practical solar energy converter.


Of course they produce a voltage. They do not produce light.



http://arxiv.org/pdf/1204.0330v1.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nantenna
http://www.nature.com/nphoton/journa....2010.237.html

Please report back any findings here. :-)


I find you are an ignorant babbler.


Yet still, you have not tried your flashlight on any type of antenna to
produce a signal. Try harder.

Again, for those who understand physics here, a very short wavelength
electrical signal sent to an a tuned antenna at the frequency of say red
light will produce zero light. It will produce electromagnetic
radiation. They are not the same.

If you are so sure, just prove us all wrong and win the Nobel Prize in
physics.
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Old July 13th 15, 08:59 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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Default Do antennas radiate photons?

FBMBoomer wrote:
On 7/12/2015 7:31 PM, wrote:
FBMBoomer wrote:
On 7/11/2015 1:04 PM,
wrote:
rickman wrote:
On 7/11/2015 11:33 AM, Wayne wrote:
“The antenna, like the eye, is a transformation device converting
electromagnetic
photons into circuit currents; but, unlike the eye, the antenna can also
convert energy
from a circuit into photons radiated into space. In simplest terms an
antenna converts
photons to currents or vice versa.” Antennas, Second Edition, 1988, by John
D. Kraus. Page 19.

What about it? Is there some reason why RF photons should not exist?

There are a lot of people that believe that light is somehow special
and the dual nature of all electromagnetic radiation doesn't exist.

Most of them base this on the fact that it is impossible with current
technology to detect a single photon at frequencies lower than light.



Radiating RF at the same wavelength as light will produce an
electromagnetic field that is not visible to any eye.


Babble; light IS electromagnetic radiation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light

If you think that photons will be converted to electric current on an
antenna, try flashing a light on any antenna and check for results.


Babble; antennas for light frequencies have been contructed in labs and
guess what, they produce a voltage. Research continues to make them
a practical solar energy converter.


Of course they produce a voltage. They do not produce light.


You just said "try flashing a light on any antenna and check for results",
idiot.

Obviously shining a light on an antenna designed for MHz frequencies
will not produce an electric current, but shining a light on an antenna
designed for THz frequencies will.


http://arxiv.org/pdf/1204.0330v1.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nantenna
http://www.nature.com/nphoton/journa....2010.237.html

Please report back any findings here. :-)


I find you are an ignorant babbler.


Yet still, you have not tried your flashlight on any type of antenna to
produce a signal. Try harder.


I don't have the lab required to build a THz antennn, idiot.

Again, for those who understand physics here, a very short wavelength
electrical signal sent to an a tuned antenna at the frequency of say red
light will produce zero light. It will produce electromagnetic
radiation. They are not the same.


Shining electromagnetic radiation on an antenna of the appropriate
frequency does not produce electromagenetic radiation, it produces
an electrical current, idiot.

If you are so sure, just prove us all wrong and win the Nobel Prize in
physics.


I already gave you three links on the subject, idiot.


--
Jim Pennino


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Old July 13th 15, 09:26 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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Default Do antennas radiate photons?

FBMBoomer wrote:

snip

Again, for those who understand physics here, a very short wavelength
electrical signal sent to an a tuned antenna at the frequency of say red
light will produce zero light. It will produce electromagnetic
radiation. They are not the same.


If you can prove they are different then you will be the one in line for
a Noblel prize.



If you are so sure, just prove us all wrong and win the Nobel Prize in
physics.


At least one Nobel prize has already been awarded for parts of that
proof. (AMI, how many of you are there?)



--
Roger Hayter
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Old July 13th 15, 09:58 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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Default Do antennas radiate photons?


"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...

One of my not so great ideas was to devise a contraption that would
let me "see" RF. It certainly would make troubleshooting RF devices
much easier. Essentially, it would be a human eye analog implimented
with RF components. According to theory, if it works for light, it
should also work for RF. At the time, I was working at about 1GHz.
Light is about 400 THz. So, all I need is an eyeball that's 400,000
times larger than the human eye. I'll give myself a -1 for the idea.

Yes it is a question of scale.
There is the trick to use a fluorescent light bulb close to an aerial.
Energy saving lamps can be quite small .
Puting the glass part of one in a microwave oven can be instructive.
Don't forget the cup of water. :-)


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Old July 13th 15, 11:56 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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Default Do antennas radiate photons?

On Mon, 13 Jul 2015 08:33:34 -0700, "Wayne"
wrote:
"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
.. .

On Mon, 13 Jul 2015 13:45:43 +0200, "bilou" wrote:

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...


Yep, antennas radiate photons.
+1
There is not any proof that RF behaves differently than light.
Things are already quite complicated without it :-)


One of my not so great ideas was to devise a contraption that would
let me "see" RF. It certainly would make troubleshooting RF devices
much easier. Essentially, it would be a human eye analog implimented
with RF components. According to theory, if it works for light, it
should also work for RF. At the time, I was working at about 1GHz.
Light is about 400 THz. So, all I need is an eyeball that's 400,000
times larger than the human eye. I'll give myself a -1 for the idea.


Wouldn't such a gadget be awesome for adjusting antennas!


Yep. I later realized that it would be marginal for RF circuits
because I could only see the components and traces that radiate RF. If
the circuit was any good, it wouldn't radiate anything.

I also burned some time trying to make an RF equivalent to a liquid
crystal sheet.
http://www.edmundoptics.com/testing-targets/calibration-standards/temperature-sensitive-liquid-crystal-sheets/1642/
Before thermal imagers became relatively inexpensive, I would place a
sheet over the power amplifier or whatever, and be able to see the hot
spots. I was also somewhat successful at creating a blurry thermal
image, using a small germanium lens and one of these sheets.

However, the ideal would be to have a liquid crystal sheet that was
sensitive to RF instead of heat. I couldn't find anything that
detected low frequency RF directly, but did get some interesting
effects by screen printing carbon squares on the thermal sensitive
liquid crystal sheets. The carbon would get slightly warm from the
RF, and cause the color to change. You can also use thermal crayons
to get a similar color change with temperatu
http://www.tiptemp.com/Products/Color-Changing-Thermal-Paint-Crayons/TLCSEN464-245-Color-Change-Crayon-Kit

Long ago, in High Skool, the instructor waved a neon lamp (NE-2) over
a transmission line, so that we could see standing waves. I thought
that was cool, but would be even better if a had a row of neon lamps
so that I didn't need to move the lamp. So, I built one with about
100 NE-2 lamps. Not only could I see the standing waves, but I could
also tune the load for minimum SWR. Today, I could probably built
something similar out of the LED strip lighting on rolls:
http://www.amazon.com/Triangle-Bulbs-T93007-Waterproof-Flexible/dp/B005EHHLD8
However, it would take more power to light up than the NE-2. At 4.8
watts/meter of LED strip, a 20 meter half wave dipole would require 48
watts to fully light at 10 meter long strip.

There are admittedly many things wrong with the aforementioned ideas.
None of them will work because of obvious (and not-so-obvious)
reasons. That's not the point. One has to start somewhere, and
started at "close, but not quite" is as good a place as any.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
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Old July 14th 15, 08:00 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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Default Do antennas radiate photons?

In article , Jeff Liebermann writes:
let me "see" RF. It certainly would make troubleshooting RF devices
much easier. Essentially, it would be a human eye analog implimented
with RF components. According to theory, if it works for light, it
should also work for RF. At the time, I was working at about 1GHz.
Light is about 400 THz. So, all I need is an eyeball that's 400,000
times larger than the human eye. I'll give myself a -1 for the idea.


A word: synthetic aperture. Remember the dish arrays in
the Jodie Foster movie Contact? You still need the same
scale factor - many times the wavelength - but most of a
dish array can be air.

So with the eyeball analogy, I would first reduce to the
size of the pupil - the aperture - and that is perhaps
5 mm. Times 400K gives 2000m for the same theoretical
resolution. Of course, for a 2D image you would need
an array of antennas spread over a disk of that radius.

Or just calculate directly. I think the angular
resolution of an array or a telescope in radians is
something like

0.22 * wavelength / aperture .

Multiply by about 60 to get degrees.

So for 1 Ghz (.3m) it's 0.22 * .3m / 2000m, or
33 x 10^-6 radians. About 7 seconds of arc.

George
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Old July 14th 15, 08:21 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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Default Do antennas radiate photons?

In article , I wrote:
A word: synthetic aperture.


Drone array, anyone?

[...]

Or just calculate directly. I think the angular
resolution of an array or a telescope in radians is
something like

0.22 * wavelength / aperture .



Oops. That's 1.22 .

Still, I don't think it's too bad considering how
long ago I learned about synthetic aperture
arrays in 2nd year physics.

George
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