On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 14:32:20 +0000, Spike
wrote:
The clash of cultures between the open-minded out-of-the-box thinker,
and a rules-and-regulations-trump-everything engineer. We have the
latter type on UKRA too, more's the pity. Then there's those that don't
know a sideband from a sideburn, waving their 'Vouvray for our side'
banners. In all senses of the word.

I guess it's too late to put you back into your box. Yes, I'm one of
those rules-n-regs types. I've even been involved in manufacturing a
few standards. Since you have an open mind, I hope you don't mind if
I pour some reasons why we have rules-n-regs into your wide open mind.

In order to talk with someone via radio, you don't really need rules.
You could simply build or buy something that generates and detects RF,
attach a modulator, and now you're talking. The necessary ingredients
are commonly available and fairly inexpensive. Not much more than a
frequency counter or frequency standard are required so that you and
your accomplice are both on the same frequency. Tuning with a light
bulb is perfectly functional and will probably help with the tuning.

However, there's a problem. You and your accomplice are not the only
people on the air. There are others that also want to communicate
with their friends and find that spurious crap belched by badly
designed, badly constructed, or mis-adjusted transmitters are making
their communications rather difficult. Similarly, your ability to
receive transmissions from your accomplice might be limited by the
spurious junk produced by the other users of the spectrum. Therefore,
it would helpful if your receiver was somewhat tolerant to intermod,
overload, blocking, adjacent channel, spurious responses, and other
anomalies.

In order to insure a minimum level of quality, the various regulatory
agencies produce specifications and testing procedures. In other
words, they produce numbers. Manufacturers and builders of radios are
expected to test their products to those standards and fix anything
that fails to comply. If everyone complies, then there's a good
chance that you and your accomplice will be able to communicate
without either transmitting or receiving any interference.

Like you, I once had an open mind when it came to radio regulations.
At the time, I was designing marine VHF FM radios. I was faced with a
blocking (receiver overload) specification that was almost impossible.
The interfering signal was so high that my test equipment could not
produce the level required. I calculated that the interfering station
antenna would need to be about 2 ft (60 cm) from my radio antenna to
produce the required interference level. My open mind declared that
to be ridiculous. I protested the specification and waited. In the
return mail (this was before email), I received several photos of
typical marine masts, yardarms, and towers, showing dual watch VHF
antennas about 2ft away from each other. Oops. It was a real problem
that required the radio to meet the specification.

Obviously, all these specifications ultimately manifest themselves in
the form or numbers. You'll find them all over the various FCC and
Ofcom rules-n-regs. They're there to insure that you, your
accomplice, and other users can communicate without mutual
interference. There is no other way to insure reliable communications
without measurements and test equipment.

So, how do you make an RF tuning light bulb produce numbers? A light
meter?


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 18/10/2018 01:35, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 14:32:20 +0000, Spike
wrote:

The clash of cultures between the open-minded out-of-the-box thinker,
and a rules-and-regulations-trump-everything engineer. We have the
latter type on UKRA too, more's the pity. Then there's those that don't
know a sideband from a sideburn, waving their 'Vouvray for our side'
banners. In all senses of the word.

I guess it's too late to put you back into your box. Yes, I'm one of
those rules-n-regs types. I've even been involved in manufacturing a
few standards. Since you have an open mind, I hope you don't mind if
I pour some reasons why we have rules-n-regs into your wide open mind.

diversion into a side-topic snipped

So, how do you make an RF tuning light bulb produce numbers? A light
meter?

By calculation, old boy, by calculation. Don't you do calculations in
the US?


--
Spike

"Nearly all men can stand adversity,
but if you want to test a man's character,
give him an internet group to manage"

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 08:09:01 +0000, Spike
wrote:

On 18/10/2018 01:35, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

diversion into a side-topic snipped

It wasn't a diversion, but if you don't want to discuss it, that's
fine. If you have an allergy or an aversion to numbers, that's also
fine. I'll try not to mention any numbers if you feel threatened.
Fear of numbers (numerophobia or arithmophobia) is amazingly common
these days as we transition from an analog world to a digital world.
Usually, it is fear of some specific number that causes a problem.
However, there are individuals, such as politicians, who fear all
numbers. These might help:
https://www.fearof.net/fear-of-numbers-phobia-numerophobia-or-arithmophobia/
"How To Overcome Fear Of Numbers"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKPaeb6nmsw (2:00)

So, how do you make an RF tuning light bulb produce numbers? A light
meter?

By calculation, old boy, by calculation. Don't you do calculations in
the US?

Well, last time I checked, calculations are done using numbers. What
numbers are you using to calculate and how did you conjur them? Do
your light bulbs include a brightness indicator?

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 08:09:01 +0000, Spike
wrote:

On 18/10/2018 01:35, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

diversion into a side-topic snipped

It wasn't a diversion, but if you don't want to discuss it, that's
fine. If you have an allergy or an aversion to numbers, that's also
fine. I'll try not to mention any numbers if you feel threatened.
Fear of numbers (numerophobia or arithmophobia) is amazingly common
these days as we transition from an analog world to a digital world.
Usually, it is fear of some specific number that causes a problem.
However, there are individuals, such as politicians, who fear all
numbers. These might help:
https://www.fearof.net/fear-of-numbers-phobia-numerophobia-or-arithmophobia/
"How To Overcome Fear Of Numbers"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKPaeb6nmsw (2:00)

So, how do you make an RF tuning light bulb produce numbers? A light
meter?

By calculation, old boy, by calculation. Don't you do calculations in
the US?

Well, last time I checked, calculations are done using numbers. What
numbers are you using to calculate and how did you conjur them? Do
your light bulbs include a brightness indicator?

You can compare the brightness of two similar lightbulbs with a moderate
amount of precision. You just have to take care that the bulb is not
changing the thing you're measuring too much.



--

Roger Hayter

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 19:22:02 +0100, (Roger Hayter)
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 08:09:01 +0000, Spike
wrote:

On 18/10/2018 01:35, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

diversion into a side-topic snipped

It wasn't a diversion, but if you don't want to discuss it, that's
fine. If you have an allergy or an aversion to numbers, that's also
fine. I'll try not to mention any numbers if you feel threatened.
Fear of numbers (numerophobia or arithmophobia) is amazingly common
these days as we transition from an analog world to a digital world.
Usually, it is fear of some specific number that causes a problem.
However, there are individuals, such as politicians, who fear all
numbers. These might help:
https://www.fearof.net/fear-of-numbers-phobia-numerophobia-or-arithmophobia/
"How To Overcome Fear Of Numbers"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKPaeb6nmsw (2:00)

So, how do you make an RF tuning light bulb produce numbers? A light
meter?

By calculation, old boy, by calculation. Don't you do calculations in
the US?

Well, last time I checked, calculations are done using numbers. What
numbers are you using to calculate and how did you conjur them? Do
your light bulbs include a brightness indicator?

You can compare the brightness of two similar lightbulbs with a moderate
amount of precision. You just have to take care that the bulb is not
changing the thing you're measuring too much.

Sure. The standard candle used to measure the distance to a star in
astronomy is such a measurement. The problem is that the standard
candle is great for comparison measurements, it much also be
calibrated against a known illumination source. Finding a light bulb
with a known specific brightness and suitable for making a comparison
does not seem very easy. Same with "similar" light bulbs. One would
still need to calibrate the standard light bulb in some manner. Might
as well use a lux meter.

"Standard candles"
http://www.astro.ex.ac.uk/people/hatchell/rinr/candles.pdf

Note that I'm ignoring the change in filament resistance at different
illumination levels with adds some unwanted non-linearity to the light
bulb power measurement.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 19:22:02 +0100, (Roger Hayter)
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 08:09:01 +0000, Spike
wrote:

On 18/10/2018 01:35, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

diversion into a side-topic snipped

It wasn't a diversion, but if you don't want to discuss it, that's
fine. If you have an allergy or an aversion to numbers, that's also
fine. I'll try not to mention any numbers if you feel threatened.
Fear of numbers (numerophobia or arithmophobia) is amazingly common
these days as we transition from an analog world to a digital world.
Usually, it is fear of some specific number that causes a problem.
However, there are individuals, such as politicians, who fear all
numbers. These might help:
https://www.fearof.net/fear-of-numbe...ia-or-arithmop
hobia/ "How To Overcome Fear Of Numbers"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKPaeb6nmsw (2:00)

So, how do you make an RF tuning light bulb produce numbers? A light
meter?

By calculation, old boy, by calculation. Don't you do calculations in
the US?

Well, last time I checked, calculations are done using numbers. What
numbers are you using to calculate and how did you conjur them? Do
your light bulbs include a brightness indicator?

You can compare the brightness of two similar lightbulbs with a moderate
amount of precision. You just have to take care that the bulb is not
changing the thing you're measuring too much.

Sure. The standard candle used to measure the distance to a star in
astronomy is such a measurement. The problem is that the standard
candle is great for comparison measurements, it much also be
calibrated against a known illumination source. Finding a light bulb
with a known specific brightness and suitable for making a comparison
does not seem very easy. Same with "similar" light bulbs. One would
still need to calibrate the standard light bulb in some manner. Might
as well use a lux meter.

"Standard candles"
http://www.astro.ex.ac.uk/people/hatchell/rinr/candles.pdf

Note that I'm ignoring the change in filament resistance at different
illumination levels with adds some unwanted non-linearity to the light
bulb power measurement.

You don't have to measure the brightness, you just alter and measure the
DC power to one bulb while comparing it with the RF illuminated one.


--

Roger Hayter

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 20:12:55 +0100, (Roger Hayter)
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 19:22:02 +0100, (Roger Hayter)
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 08:09:01 +0000, Spike
wrote:

On 18/10/2018 01:35, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

diversion into a side-topic snipped

It wasn't a diversion, but if you don't want to discuss it, that's
fine. If you have an allergy or an aversion to numbers, that's also
fine. I'll try not to mention any numbers if you feel threatened.
Fear of numbers (numerophobia or arithmophobia) is amazingly common
these days as we transition from an analog world to a digital world.
Usually, it is fear of some specific number that causes a problem.
However, there are individuals, such as politicians, who fear all
numbers. These might help:
https://www.fearof.net/fear-of-numbe...ia-or-arithmop
hobia/ "How To Overcome Fear Of Numbers"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKPaeb6nmsw (2:00)

So, how do you make an RF tuning light bulb produce numbers? A light
meter?

By calculation, old boy, by calculation. Don't you do calculations in
the US?

Well, last time I checked, calculations are done using numbers. What
numbers are you using to calculate and how did you conjur them? Do
your light bulbs include a brightness indicator?

You can compare the brightness of two similar lightbulbs with a moderate
amount of precision. You just have to take care that the bulb is not
changing the thing you're measuring too much.

Sure. The standard candle used to measure the distance to a star in
astronomy is such a measurement. The problem is that the standard
candle is great for comparison measurements, it much also be
calibrated against a known illumination source. Finding a light bulb
with a known specific brightness and suitable for making a comparison
does not seem very easy. Same with "similar" light bulbs. One would
still need to calibrate the standard light bulb in some manner. Might
as well use a lux meter.

"Standard candles"
http://www.astro.ex.ac.uk/people/hatchell/rinr/candles.pdf

Note that I'm ignoring the change in filament resistance at different
illumination levels with adds some unwanted non-linearity to the light
bulb power measurement.

You don't have to measure the brightness, you just alter and measure the
DC power to one bulb while comparing it with the RF illuminated one.

Yes, that will work but will provide only a single value of RF power
that corresponds to a single value of brightness. It's also not the
way the "standard candle" works. In the standard candle, there's no
assumption that the brightness of the reference light and the measured
light will be equal. Instead, it relies on inverse square law which
basically states that if you move a light bulb twice as far away, it
will be 1/4th as bright. Move it 3 times as far away, and it's 1/9th
as bright. And so on.

Let's start with an RF powered light at some brightness level. Next
to it, I take a brighter bulb, where I know the brightness. This
light is NOT adjustable and is always the same known brightness. Now,
I move this bulb farther away until it appears to be exactly the same
brightness as the RF powered light bulb. At this point, I know:
1. The distance between the observer (me) and the RF powered light
bulb which I'll call A.
2. The distance between the observer (me) and the reference light
bulb which I'll call B.
3. The brightness of the reference light bulb which I'll call C.
4. I'll call the unknown brightness of the RF powered bulb as D.

Let's say that the observer is 2 meters away from the RF powered
light, and that the reference light is the same brightness as the RF
powered light at a distance of 5 meters. I'll assume the reference
light produced 1000 lux. Therefore, the brightness of the RF powered
light is:
1000 / (5/2)^0.5 = 1000 / 1.58 = 632 lux

Presumably, the reference light was calibrated for brightness at a
given RF level. Let's say it's 50 watts for 1000 lux. Therefore, the
RF power of the RF powered light would be:
632 / 1000 * 50 = 32 watts
Again, notice that I don't need an adjustable reference light, I don't
need a corresponding lux-watts calibration chart, and that there no
inconvenient non-linearities involved due to variations in filament
resistance.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558