Roger Conroy wrote:
Can you define "changes" without reference to time?

My dog cannot tell time but knows when to eat by the
changes in her feelings from not hungry to hungry. Time
is just an artifact of man's mental model of reality.
Before man emerged, living organisms got by on changes
alone with no reference to time.

That reminds me of something I caught my Dad on one time.
Daylight savings time had just arrived and we set our
clocks forward one hour thus losing one hour of sleep. I
said, "Pity the poor birds who have to wake up an hour
earlier and fly around in the dark." My Dad said, "Yeah,
poor birds, - - - hey, wait a minute!"
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Mike Coslo wrote:
It is difficult to imagine how mortal, intelligent creatures would
not develop a concept of time. The concept (reality?) seems ingrained in
almost everything we do, say, or think.

Yep, you can say the same thing about a concept of God or a
concept of a soul. But models of reality do not dictate reality.
It is supposed to be the other way around.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

W9DMK (Robert Lay) wrote:

Dear John,

The essence of Life is Change.

The essence of Change is Time.

Without Time there is no Change - without Change there is no Life.

Without time, the existence of that entity or "Geist" that could
imagine a concept of "Time" could not exist.

Therefore, Time might well be the most fundamental of fundamentals.



"Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so" Douglas Adams

tom
K0TAR

Ohhhh! Cecil:

Just when I think it is safe to go back into the water!!!!

You said, "But models of reality do not dictate reality."
I say the following:
Then how come I first, ever, saw a "moon mission" was Jules Vernes'(sp?)
mind at work?
How come the first time I seen a LASER was in "Buck Rogers?"
etc, etc, etc, ....
I WANT to think reality is something we "find" and "learn" and exists
without man, but, why then am I bit frightened it may be created in the mind
of man (at least some of it)--and one should, "Becareful what they wish
for!"

Warmest regards,
John

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
| Mike Coslo wrote:
| It is difficult to imagine how mortal, intelligent creatures would
| not develop a concept of time. The concept (reality?) seems ingrained in
| almost everything we do, say, or think.
|
| Yep, you can say the same thing about a concept of God or a
| concept of a soul. But models of reality do not dictate reality.
| It is supposed to be the other way around.
| --
| 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp
|
| ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
News==----
| http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+
Newsgroups
| ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
=----

Mike Coslo wrote:
I can't help but notice that to make your points you keep referring
to concepts of time... 8^)

It can't be helped because concepts of time are imbedded
into our language. I can't type a sentence without a verb
tense, past, present, future, ...

The concept of time didn't exist before a conceptual animal
came along yet all the non-conceptual animals got along just
fine with no concept of time. They responded to movement and
change. Time is our shorthand math model way of keeping track
of movement and change. Doesn't mean that time actually exists.

Same is true for our other models. Your positive 'X' axis
points approximately the opposite direction 12 hours later.
The 'Z' axis is up and sweeps the universe like a quasar as
the earth rotates on its axis.

Our sacred FIXED point at the x,y,z origin is moving relative
to the center of the earth, moving relative to the center of
the sun, moving relative to the center of our local
cluster, ... Quoting from "The Tenth Dimension": "There is
a Doppler shift that appears to indicate that our entire
galaxy is moving with a speed of about 640 kilometers per
second in a direction whose significance is obscure."
Given all that movement, I'm surprised I can find my way
back to my house.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Tom:



I second the "time spatial effect" which makes "time" speed up right when
they give ya lunch!!!! Yep, it is REAL alright!!!



Regards,

John

"Tom Ring" wrote in message
. ..
| W9DMK (Robert Lay) wrote:
|
| Dear John,
|
| The essence of Life is Change.
|
| The essence of Change is Time.
|
| Without Time there is no Change - without Change there is no Life.
|
| Without time, the existence of that entity or "Geist" that could
| imagine a concept of "Time" could not exist.
|
| Therefore, Time might well be the most fundamental of fundamentals.
|
|
|
| "Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so" Douglas Adams
|
| tom
| K0TAR
|

Cecil Moore wrote:

Roger Conroy wrote:

Can you define "changes" without reference to time?


My dog cannot tell time but knows when to eat by the
changes in her feelings from not hungry to hungry.

My cats know when I am coming home in the evening

Time
is just an artifact of man's mental model of reality.

Time is the description of the interval between happenings. Do all
things happen concurrently?



Before man emerged, living organisms got by on changes
alone with no reference to time.

That's hard to prove one way or the other.


- Mike KB3EIA -


- Mike KB3EIA -

Cecil Moore wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:

I can't help but notice that to make your points you keep referring to
concepts of time... 8^)


It can't be helped because concepts of time are imbedded
into our language. I can't type a sentence without a verb
tense, past, present, future, ...

Correct!

The concept of time didn't exist before a conceptual animal
came along yet all the non-conceptual animals got along just
fine with no concept of time.

That is a more tentative "correct". I don't know that animals,
especially the higher ones, don't have a concept of time.

But let us assume that they don't.

Then we came along, and spent some time (oops) contemplating the
universe. Humans could see humans being born, growing, dying. The
weather became cold, and them warm again. The seasons were in general,
predictable. When agriculture came along, those who planted their seed
at the wrong season starved. Those who watched the sky noticed a
correlation between the position of the stars at night, and the position
of the sun during the day, and the weather. Humans, having a marked
talent for finding patterns, eventually found the repetitious
correlation. As we progressed, the concept of time became more and more
refined, but none of the earliest concepts were refuted.

If is is wrong, it is magnificently so.
They responded to movement and
change. Time is our shorthand math model way of keeping track
of movement and change. Doesn't mean that time actually exists.

Same is true for our other models. Your positive 'X' axis
points approximately the opposite direction 12 hours later.
The 'Z' axis is up and sweeps the universe like a quasar as
the earth rotates on its axis.

Our sacred FIXED point at the x,y,z origin is moving relative
to the center of the earth, moving relative to the center of
the sun, moving relative to the center of our local
cluster, ... Quoting from "The Tenth Dimension": "There is
a Doppler shift that appears to indicate that our entire
galaxy is moving with a speed of about 640 kilometers per
second in a direction whose significance is obscure."
Given all that movement, I'm surprised I can find my way
back to my house.

Maybe that is why I keep getting lost! ;^)

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote:
Time is the description of the interval between happenings. Do all
things happen concurrently?

I agree that time is the description of the interval between
happenings. What I don't accept is that time is some real
dimension existing completely independent of human concepts.

Before man emerged, living organisms got by on changes
alone with no reference to time.

That's hard to prove one way or the other.

I don't recall clocks being part of the fossil record. :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

Time is a commodity. It can be bought.