Art,

Think again about what you wrote.

"I have oft times changed a single element into two closely coupled
elements and where one is short and one is long relative to a driven
element."

Why would you mis-attribute your application of standard terminology to
a new experimental situation as a "poor translation"?

The appropriate terminology for the various elements is generally pretty
clear from the physical design and performance of a Yagi antenna. When
your experiments go beyond the original design you are on your own.

73,
Gene
W4SZ


wrote:
Seems to me Cecil that the terms "Reflector" and
"Director" are very poor words to describe antenna
elements for an HF array .
I have oft times changed a single element into two
closely coupled elements and where one is short
and one is long relative to a driven element
I wonder who was the first to assign these terms
Or was it a poor translation from Japanese ( Uda and Yagi) ?
Regards
Art

Exactly Gene.
This is why the thread asked for a "definition" first for director and
reflector.
As you are probably aware a yagi reflector does not reflect anything.
Some would say that a dish "reflects but not a element.
I am still a bit gun shy after the last episode where TOA was not
defined in the IEEE dictionary thus many feined knowledge on the subject.
I suspect tho that the nomenclature started with the Yagi and then
spread to other array design descriptions.
If however a Yagi reflector does actually "reflect" then your scolding
is correctly directed at me.Perhaps we should first look in a dictionary
for the word "reflector"
Regards
Art

"Gene Fuller" wrote in message
...
Art,

Think again about what you wrote.

"I have oft times changed a single element into two closely coupled
elements and where one is short and one is long relative to a driven
element."

Why would you mis-attribute your application of standard terminology to a
new experimental situation as a "poor translation"?

The appropriate terminology for the various elements is generally pretty
clear from the physical design and performance of a Yagi antenna. When
your experiments go beyond the original design you are on your own.

73,
Gene
W4SZ


wrote:
Seems to me Cecil that the terms "Reflector" and
"Director" are very poor words to describe antenna
elements for an HF array .
I have oft times changed a single element into two
closely coupled elements and where one is short
and one is long relative to a driven element
I wonder who was the first to assign these terms
Or was it a poor translation from Japanese ( Uda and Yagi) ?
Regards
Art

If a yagi reflector, reflects nothing, what would account for the forward
gain of only a driven element and a "non-reflector?"

I am not asking to be a smartass, but looking for some evidence of the
ethers properties... (some might say I am looking for aliens? grin)

Warmest regards,
John
--
Sit down the six-pack!!! STEP AWAY!!! ...and go do something...

" wrote in message
news:tEvge.74692$c24.13529@attbi_s72...
| Exactly Gene.
| This is why the thread asked for a "definition" first for director and
| reflector.
| As you are probably aware a yagi reflector does not reflect anything.
| Some would say that a dish "reflects but not a element.
| I am still a bit gun shy after the last episode where TOA was not
| defined in the IEEE dictionary thus many feined knowledge on the subject.
| I suspect tho that the nomenclature started with the Yagi and then
| spread to other array design descriptions.
| If however a Yagi reflector does actually "reflect" then your scolding
| is correctly directed at me.Perhaps we should first look in a dictionary
| for the word "reflector"
| Regards
| Art
|
| "Gene Fuller" wrote in message
| ...
| Art,
|
| Think again about what you wrote.
|
| "I have oft times changed a single element into two closely coupled
| elements and where one is short and one is long relative to a driven
| element."
|
| Why would you mis-attribute your application of standard terminology to
a
| new experimental situation as a "poor translation"?
|
| The appropriate terminology for the various elements is generally pretty
| clear from the physical design and performance of a Yagi antenna. When
| your experiments go beyond the original design you are on your own.
|
| 73,
| Gene
| W4SZ
|
|
| wrote:
| Seems to me Cecil that the terms "Reflector" and
| "Director" are very poor words to describe antenna
| elements for an HF array .
| I have oft times changed a single element into two
| closely coupled elements and where one is short
| and one is long relative to a driven element
| I wonder who was the first to assign these terms
| Or was it a poor translation from Japanese ( Uda and Yagi) ?
| Regards
| Art
|
|

Gene Fuller wrote:
Art,

Think again about what you wrote.

"I have oft times changed a single element into two closely coupled
elements and where one is short and one is long relative to a driven
element."

Why would you mis-attribute your application of standard terminology
to
a new experimental situation as a "poor translation"?

The appropriate terminology for the various elements is generally
pretty
clear from the physical design and performance of a Yagi antenna.
When
your experiments go beyond the original design you are on your own.

73,
Gene
W4SZ


wrote:
Seems to me Cecil that the terms "Reflector" and
"Director" are very poor words to describe antenna
elements for an HF array .
I have oft times changed a single element into two
closely coupled elements and where one is short
and one is long relative to a driven element
I wonder who was the first to assign these terms
Or was it a poor translation from Japanese ( Uda and Yagi) ?
Regards
Art

wrote:
I wonder who was the first to assign these terms
Or was it a poor translation from Japanese ( Uda and Yagi) ?

Please note that John didn't mention Yagi's. He only
mentioned "beams". :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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wrote:
If however a Yagi reflector does actually "reflect" then your scolding
is correctly directed at me.Perhaps we should first look in a dictionary
for the word "reflector"

From the IEEE Dictionary: "reflector element - A parasitic element
located in a direction other than forward of the driven element
of an antenna intended to increase the directivity of the antenna
in the forward direction."

"director element - A parasitic element located forward of the
driven element of an antenna, intended to increase the directivity
of the antenna in the forward direction."

By this definition, a log-periodic has no reflectors and no
directors.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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Yes, I see that Cecil, but I suspect he is not a ham
and thus would not know the difference between
different arrays. But if he is really looking for "Aliens"
he may well be looking in the right direction but his LED's
have a skewed correct "reflector".
With respect to your two element example you stated that
they were both driven. When coupled correctly it is only
necessary to feed one element in an array and allow the
coupled element to be of similar phase and if possible
of a higher current flow to give you that 3 db additive
advantage . Plus single digit elevation angle for max gain
even tho the array is fed at 1 WL height.( 20 metres)
I could send you actual model details if it is of interest.
Or a photo if that interests you more.
Regards

Art




"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
wrote:
I wonder who was the first to assign these terms
Or was it a poor translation from Japanese ( Uda and Yagi) ?

Please note that John didn't mention Yagi's. He only
mentioned "beams". :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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Interesting Cecil. Not only does it rely only on position versus
the driven element but they use the term reflector
in the same breath as a parasitic device!
Presumably length is not a factor.
Mirror, Mirror on the wall now we will call you a parasite
depending who is looking at you
Just don't paint your antenna and use plenty of LED's so that
the shiny surfaces will reflect. I give up, there are to many
conflicting definitions.
In my case it would appear that I have one driver, six reflectors and one
parasitic driver, that should be explicit enough.
Thanks everybody for your help
Art


"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
wrote:
If however a Yagi reflector does actually "reflect" then your scolding
is correctly directed at me.Perhaps we should first look in a dictionary
for the word "reflector"

From the IEEE Dictionary: "reflector element - A parasitic element
located in a direction other than forward of the driven element
of an antenna intended to increase the directivity of the antenna
in the forward direction."

"director element - A parasitic element located forward of the
driven element of an antenna, intended to increase the directivity
of the antenna in the forward direction."

By this definition, a log-periodic has no reflectors and no
directors.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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Well, I am not as bad as those guy with their "photon projecting
antennas"--my antennas propagate a wave though a medium--for want of a
better word--I use ether to describe that medium... but, if anyone knows a
better name--I am open... grin

Warmest regards,
John
--
Sit down the six-pack!!! STEP AWAY!!! ...and go do something...

" wrote in message
news:KSwge.72444$NU4.47928@attbi_s22...
| Yes, I see that Cecil, but I suspect he is not a ham
| and thus would not know the difference between
| different arrays. But if he is really looking for "Aliens"
| he may well be looking in the right direction but his LED's
| have a skewed correct "reflector".
| With respect to your two element example you stated that
| they were both driven. When coupled correctly it is only
| necessary to feed one element in an array and allow the
| coupled element to be of similar phase and if possible
| of a higher current flow to give you that 3 db additive
| advantage . Plus single digit elevation angle for max gain
| even tho the array is fed at 1 WL height.( 20 metres)
| I could send you actual model details if it is of interest.
| Or a photo if that interests you more.
| Regards
|
| Art
|
|
|
|
| "Cecil Moore" wrote in message
| ...
| wrote:
| I wonder who was the first to assign these terms
| Or was it a poor translation from Japanese ( Uda and Yagi) ?
|
| Please note that John didn't mention Yagi's. He only
| mentioned "beams". :-)
| --
| 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp
|
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| Newsgroups
| ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
| =----
|
|

On Wed, 11 May 2005 19:09:12 -0700, "John Smith"
wrote:

Well, I am not as bad as those guy with their "photon projecting
antennas"

Makes it infinitely easier to reckon which is the director or the
reflector - just look. If you see yourself holding the flashlight,
you are the director looking at the reflector.

Now for the real challenge:
What would you see if you looked into a conjugate mirror?

Hint(s): it won't matter much if you are holding a flashlight OR a
searchlight. No matter of semantics will change the perception
either. Nothing to close couple (you are close enough already). No
issue of size (as long as you can see the mirror frame - but having
said that, this will then turn the answer on the shape of the frame I
suppose). No impact will be discovered if there's another mirror
behind it. No one needs to worry about translation problems from
japanese. You won't find the answer in Kraus (or the IEEE dictionary
I suspect). Computation of gain comes with the answer (and in all
likelihood so will considerable error).

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC