I see that you are convinced that you've explained where the bouncing
waves of average power go and what they do.

Did anyone understand it? If so, would someone else please try to
explain it to me? Where does that 18 watts of "reverse power" go, and why?

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Cecil Moore wrote:

[More generalizations with no numbers]

Roy Lewallen wrote:

I see that you are convinced that you've explained where the bouncing
waves of average power go and what they do.

Did anyone understand it? If so, would someone else please try to
explain it to me? Where does that 18 watts of "reverse power" go, and why?

Wouldn't it go to the circulator load which must always be placed at the
source in order to clearly illustrate what happens when a circulator
isn't in place at the source?

ac6xg

Jim Kelley wrote:
Roy Lewallen wrote:

I see that you are convinced that you've explained where the bouncing
waves of average power go and what they do.

Did anyone understand it? If so, would someone else please try to
explain it to me? Where does that 18 watts of "reverse power" go, and
why?


Wouldn't it go to the circulator load which must always be placed at the
source in order to clearly illustrate what happens when a circulator
isn't in place at the source?

ac6xg

Sorry, I was asking about the simple example I posted (which doesn't
have a circulator), not the problem posted by Cecil.

How does placing a circulator at the source illustrate what happens when
it isn't in place? Isn't it possible to explain what happens to the
"reverse power" without a circulator? If not, why not?

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Roy Lewallen wrote:
Please tell me which of the numbers I posted disagree with yours, and
which numbers you got. Once again, mine a

It's not your numbers, Roy, it's your premises that violate
the conservation of momentum principle among other principles
of physics. RF waves possesss momentum and that momentum MUST
be preserved. Your premises simply violate the conservation
of momentum principle. When you assert that the reflected
waves possess no energy and it is stored in some magic place
at sub-light speeds, you are in violation of the principles
of physics.

You can resolve all of this by telling us where the energy
is stored, besides in reflected waves, when we are dealing with
light in free space and no transmission line because exactly
the same thing happens with EM light waves as happens with
EM RF waves.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


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Roy Lewallen wrote:
Jim Kelley wrote:

Roy Lewallen wrote:

I see that you are convinced that you've explained where the bouncing
waves of average power go and what they do.

Did anyone understand it? If so, would someone else please try to
explain it to me? Where does that 18 watts of "reverse power" go, and
why?

Wouldn't it go to the circulator load which must always be placed at
the source in order to clearly illustrate what happens when a
circulator isn't in place at the source?

ac6xg


Sorry, I was asking about the simple example I posted (which doesn't
have a circulator), not the problem posted by Cecil.

It was a tongue-in-cheek reply, Roy. These problems always seem to end
up with a circulator in them at some point - clearly illustrating what
happens under entirely different circumstances. :-)

73, Jim AC6XG

Roy Lewallen wrote:
Did anyone understand it? If so, would someone else please try to
explain it to me? Where does that 18 watts of "reverse power" go, and why?

Bob Lay, w9dmk, could explain it but he's off on a camping trip.
I think the QEX editors can now explain it also. 18 watts is
rejected by the mismatched load. It was part of a forward wave
that contained energy and momentum. That energy and momentum
MUST be conserved according to the laws of physics. The reflected
wave heads back toward the source at the speed of light and part
is re-reflected as Pref2*rho^2. The remaining
Pref(1-rho^2) part engages with Pfor1*rho^2 in an equal
magnitude/opposite phase wave cancellation as explained by Walter
Maxwell on page 23-9 of "Reflections II". Since energy and momentum
cannot be cancelled, the two cancelled waves conserve energy and
momentum by heading back toward the load at the speed of light as
a re-reflection of energy which joins the forward wave energy.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


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Jim Kelley wrote:

Roy Lewallen wrote:
Did anyone understand it? If so, would someone else please try to
explain it to me? Where does that 18 watts of "reverse power" go, and
why?

Wouldn't it go to the circulator load which must always be placed at the
source in order to clearly illustrate what happens when a circulator
isn't in place at the source?

When a Z0-match is in place at the source, everything is also clear
since zero reflected energy reaches the source. The Z0-match case,
using an antenna tuner, is the most likely case to be encountered
in ham radio. 100% of the reflected energy and momentum is re-reflected
back toward the load, just as Walter Maxwell has been saying as long
as I can remember.

This stuff is not new. It is explained in "Fields and Waves ..."
by Ramo and Whinnery, copyright 1950's.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


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Roy Lewallen wrote:
Isn't it possible to explain what happens to the
"reverse power" without a circulator?

It is certainly possible in a Z0-matched system where
zero reflected energy reaches the source and the source
is feeding its designed-for load. If no reflected energy
reaches the source, the source impedance doesn't matter,
except for efficiency, which doesn't affect the rest of
the system. A one ohm source providing 100v to a 50 ohm
load and a one megohm source providing 100v to a 50 ohm
load will result in identical external conditions when
driving a 50 ohm load.

The picture is not as clear when reflected current and
voltage are allowed to flow into the source. We usually
don't know what the source impedance is and that
certainly handicaps any analysis. Modern designers simply
resort to protection circuitry and don't worry about
the energy analysis. We do know that reflections reaching
the source are not benign.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


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Jim Kelley wrote:
It was a tongue-in-cheek reply, Roy. These problems always seem to end
up with a circulator in them at some point - clearly illustrating what
happens under entirely different circumstances. :-)

The circulator, lossless feedlines of unreasonable length,
Time Domain Reflectometers, TV ghosting, etc. are all tools
for illustration purposes. However, a Z0-matched system is
an ordinary configuration in ham radio and is easy to analyze
since no reflected energy is allowed to reach the source. The
conservation of energy and momentum rules dictate where the
energy must go in such a case. We can debate why the reflected
energy is 100% re-reflected but there is no question that it
*is* 100% re-reflected because none reaches the source and
there are only two directions in a transmission line.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


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I've explained how I calculated how much energy is stored in the
transmission line. The movement of energy within the line is complex; in
the abbreviated analysis I've had time to do so far, it sloshes back and
forth in regions within the line. It does not travel in waves of average
power, bouncing back and forth, and believing so isn't necessary in
order comply with energy conservation. Your view of power and energy is
oversimplified, and it fails when you're pressed to explain what happens
at the interface between the line and the outside world.

Momentum is conserved in mechanical elastic collisions, but not in
inelastic ones, e.g., when energy is being extracted. I wouldn't begin
to try to apply this to a transmission line, but I see it doesn't bother
you. I understand and believe the fundamental principles of physics and
thermodynamics -- I'm just careful not to misapply them.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Cecil Moore wrote:
Roy Lewallen wrote:

Please tell me which of the numbers I posted disagree with yours, and
which numbers you got. Once again, mine a


It's not your numbers, Roy, it's your premises that violate
the conservation of momentum principle among other principles
of physics. RF waves possesss momentum and that momentum MUST
be preserved. Your premises simply violate the conservation
of momentum principle. When you assert that the reflected
waves possess no energy and it is stored in some magic place
at sub-light speeds, you are in violation of the principles
of physics.

You can resolve all of this by telling us where the energy
is stored, besides in reflected waves, when we are dealing with
light in free space and no transmission line because exactly
the same thing happens with EM light waves as happens with
EM RF waves.