On Sat, 4 Jun 2005 22:02:48 -0400, "Fred W4JLE"
wrote:

I would disagree with your statement about SWR being absorbed in the source.
The reflected wave is rereflected

Hi Fred,

I've seen this thesis offered before. I generally ask, since this is
exactly the same thesis offered for a conjugate match offered by a
tuner, and a tuner is used for this very purpose (rereflecting the
mismatch), if the Transmitter already does it - What is the Tuner for?

Why do you use a tuner? What is a match? Why would anyone seek to
match a Transmitter to its load?

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

You have created an all encompassing case from the original SWR of 1.7:1 No
tuner needed. Under these conditions, the amount of reflected energy
radiated approaches Ivory Soap.


"Richard Clark" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 4 Jun 2005 22:02:48 -0400, "Fred W4JLE"
wrote:

I would disagree with your statement about SWR being absorbed in the
source.
The reflected wave is rereflected

Hi Fred,

I've seen this thesis offered before. I generally ask, since this is
exactly the same thesis offered for a conjugate match offered by a
tuner, and a tuner is used for this very purpose (rereflecting the
mismatch), if the Transmitter already does it - What is the Tuner for?

Why do you use a tuner? What is a match? Why would anyone seek to
match a Transmitter to its load?

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Ivory Soap. Excellent!
73
H.


"Fred W4JLE" wrote in message
...
You have created an all encompassing case from the original SWR of 1.7:1
No
tuner needed. Under these conditions, the amount of reflected energy
radiated approaches Ivory Soap.


"Richard Clark" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 4 Jun 2005 22:02:48 -0400, "Fred W4JLE"
wrote:

I would disagree with your statement about SWR being absorbed in the
source.
The reflected wave is rereflected

Hi Fred,

I've seen this thesis offered before. I generally ask, since this is
exactly the same thesis offered for a conjugate match offered by a
tuner, and a tuner is used for this very purpose (rereflecting the
mismatch), if the Transmitter already does it - What is the Tuner for?

Why do you use a tuner? What is a match? Why would anyone seek to
match a Transmitter to its load?

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

On Sun, 5 Jun 2005 10:02:17 -0400, "Fred W4JLE"
wrote:

You have created an all encompassing case from the original SWR of 1.7:1

Thanx Fred,

No one has ever been able to answer when the Transmitter rereflects
energy, why they need a tuner.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

In TV broadcasting reflections from the antenna back to the transmitter will
be reflected by the transmitter to the antenna and the signal will be
rebroadcast albeit at somewhat less power. Then depending on the length of
transmission line the viewer may see ghosting.
In audio I don't know why and I have run my Collins 30S-1 into ladder line
with a 14 to SWR with no one except me knowing!

--

73
Hank WD5JFR
"Richard Clark" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 5 Jun 2005 10:02:17 -0400, "Fred W4JLE"
wrote:

You have created an all encompassing case from the original SWR of 1.7:1

Thanx Fred,

No one has ever been able to answer when the Transmitter rereflects
energy, why they need a tuner.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 21:58:06 GMT, "Henry Kolesnik"
wrote:

In TV broadcasting reflections from the antenna back to the transmitter will
be reflected by the transmitter to the antenna and the signal will be
rebroadcast albeit at somewhat less power.

On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 21:58:06 GMT, "Henry Kolesnik"
wrote:

In TV broadcasting reflections from the antenna back to the transmitter will
be reflected by the transmitter to the antenna and the signal will be
rebroadcast albeit at somewhat less power.

Hi Hank,

That would pretty much reveal the SWR if we knew, wouldn't it? If
"somewhat less power" was in 1.2:1 ratio, we wouldn't care so much,
but how would the viewer feel about such service?

Then depending on the length of
transmission line the viewer may see ghosting.

I think we, or another correspondent and I have dealt with that at one
time. At the time I believe it was called "fringing," not "ghosts."
The difference being that what were called ghosts at the dawn of the
TV era were separated by fractions of an inch rather than fractions of
a mm. As such, ghosts couldn't have been originated by anything
shorter than mile length transmission lines that were poorly
terminated at both ends. Instead, ghosts were actually transmission
path length differentials in a multipath situation.

In audio I don't know why and I have run my Collins 30S-1 into ladder line
with a 14 to SWR with no one except me knowing!

Well, if this is meant to be analogous to fringing/ghosting, I suppose
its because a microsecond blur at AF is entirely inaudible. Or are we
speaking of SSTV? However, this begs the question, How did you know?
All the Collins equipment I taught at school didn't come with a SWR
meter. It was wholly unnecessary if you performed the standard
tune-up. Matter of fact, back then the only SWR meter I saw was for
Ham gear. The finals' tank performed every function of matching as
any tuner.

However, with the KWT-6, we did use an external tuner, 180-V1
(although I may have this mixed up with another model), for coax
feedlines. This was more for its automatic feature where the
transmitter could be tuned up with a 50 Ohm load, and the automatic
tuner simply did the job of presenting it with the transformed load.

However, returning to the point of a transmitter rereflecting a
reflection; I know the bare KWT-6 into ladder line employs its tank to
protect its final tubes. Without that safeguard, I have seen plates
melt - something no one here wants to call dissipation lest it be
evidence of an internal resistance. The bare tubes with their native
very hi Z would rereflect like nothing else - and this begs the
observation - how could you get original any power out of them, past
the tremendous mismatch? The tuner/final tank comes back into the
equation, and rereflection goes out the window as a property of the
transmitter and returns to the domain of matching.

If anyone wants to constrain the entire crusade of the rereflecting
transmitter to the tube set feeding ladder line - then feel free to do
so. However, I don't think I've ever seen a mobile tube rig feeding
ladder line - no doubt one day I will. We will probably talk about
efficiency. :-)

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

However, I don't think I've ever seen a mobile tube rig feeding
ladder line - no doubt one day I will. We will probably talk about
efficiency. :-)

It was done in 1936.
http://web.wt.net/~nm5k/mobile36.jpg
Cover pix from a 1936 QST...Forgot
what month...
But I still think I prefer coax...
Their "ladder line" looked to be a twisted wire feeder.
The call on that vehicle was W9MSY...
With the short feedline run on a mobile,
even coax is pretty low loss...
I never used an SWR meter when I was a
novice...I had an old viking valiant that would
tune nearly anything...You didn't need a meter...
You just loaded it up to full plate current and went
with it...My TS 830 is like that to a lesser extent..
If it loads within the loading range, it's good nuff...
No point in even putting a meter on it...Adding a
tuner, would just add some loss...MK

On 6 Jun 2005 02:40:52 -0700, wrote:

However, I don't think I've ever seen a mobile tube rig feeding
ladder line - no doubt one day I will. We will probably talk about
efficiency. :-)

It was done in 1936.
http://web.wt.net/~nm5k/mobile36.jpg
Cover pix from a 1936 QST...Forgot
what month...
But I still think I prefer coax...
Their "ladder line" looked to be a twisted wire feeder.
The call on that vehicle was W9MSY...

Hi Mark,

Hmmm, the picture's kinda small, and the line looks like coax - or
maybe close ladder line. I will take your word for it as it makes my
track record for accuracy complete. :-)

Well, almost complete. Is the guy holding his pinkie to the radiator
measuring efficiency?

As a sidebar, the police were working 160M mobile back then too.
Seems coax was hardly an off-the-shelf item. Think they used ladder
line too? More probably direct feed.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Hi Richard
Please tell me more about melting the finals and a bit more explanation of
what was happening?
tnx
Hank
"Richard Clark" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 21:58:06 GMT, "Henry Kolesnik"
wrote:

In TV broadcasting reflections from the antenna back to the transmitter
will
be reflected by the transmitter to the antenna and the signal will be
rebroadcast albeit at somewhat less power.

Hi Hank,

That would pretty much reveal the SWR if we knew, wouldn't it? If
"somewhat less power" was in 1.2:1 ratio, we wouldn't care so much,
but how would the viewer feel about such service?

Then depending on the length of
transmission line the viewer may see ghosting.

I think we, or another correspondent and I have dealt with that at one
time. At the time I believe it was called "fringing," not "ghosts."
The difference being that what were called ghosts at the dawn of the
TV era were separated by fractions of an inch rather than fractions of
a mm. As such, ghosts couldn't have been originated by anything
shorter than mile length transmission lines that were poorly
terminated at both ends. Instead, ghosts were actually transmission
path length differentials in a multipath situation.

In audio I don't know why and I have run my Collins 30S-1 into ladder line
with a 14 to SWR with no one except me knowing!

Well, if this is meant to be analogous to fringing/ghosting, I suppose
its because a microsecond blur at AF is entirely inaudible. Or are we
speaking of SSTV? However, this begs the question, How did you know?
All the Collins equipment I taught at school didn't come with a SWR
meter. It was wholly unnecessary if you performed the standard
tune-up. Matter of fact, back then the only SWR meter I saw was for
Ham gear. The finals' tank performed every function of matching as
any tuner.

However, with the KWT-6, we did use an external tuner, 180-V1
(although I may have this mixed up with another model), for coax
feedlines. This was more for its automatic feature where the
transmitter could be tuned up with a 50 Ohm load, and the automatic
tuner simply did the job of presenting it with the transformed load.

However, returning to the point of a transmitter rereflecting a
reflection; I know the bare KWT-6 into ladder line employs its tank to
protect its final tubes. Without that safeguard, I have seen plates
melt - something no one here wants to call dissipation lest it be
evidence of an internal resistance. The bare tubes with their native
very hi Z would rereflect like nothing else - and this begs the
observation - how could you get original any power out of them, past
the tremendous mismatch? The tuner/final tank comes back into the
equation, and rereflection goes out the window as a property of the
transmitter and returns to the domain of matching.

If anyone wants to constrain the entire crusade of the rereflecting
transmitter to the tube set feeding ladder line - then feel free to do
so. However, I don't think I've ever seen a mobile tube rig feeding
ladder line - no doubt one day I will. We will probably talk about
efficiency. :-)

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC