On 21 Sep 2006 04:31:20 -0700, "Telstar Electronics"
wrote in
. com:


Frank Gilliland wrote:
Repeatable -- Not only am I making the final design public, the entire
process is going to be public domain. You, OTOH, won't even release
your schematic for fear of constructive criticism.
**Your statement here has nothing to do with having a repeatable
design.**


Are you going to pull a Clinton and redefine "repeatable"?


Reliable -- In case you haven't been paying attention, the fundamental
concept of the design is longevity. These amps are going to be around
and working long after you and your amps are dead and buried.
**This is all talk right now. The fact that you will be using
components such as connectors for board-to-board interfacing does not
lend itself to high reliability.**


I didn't suspect you were tnom but you just gave yourself away.
Regardless, have you looked inside your computer lately? Did you
notice all those 'unreliable' connectors? When was the last time you
opened up a piece of electronic equipment with a major brand name like
HP? Kenwood? GE? Motorola? Uniden? Do you really think that CONNECTORS
are an issue? Naw..... you are just looking for a reason to whine.


Profitable -- I have saved the best for last. The -best- thing about a
modular design is that it is perfectly LEGAL!!!. I can manufacture and
market the chassis and modules independently under the premise that no
component, in and of itself, constitutes an amplifier. The only way
the government can touch this is if they outlaw every aspect of hobby
electronics and the sale of each and every component, which we all
know isn't going to happen (unless Bush declares a national emergency
right after the 2008 election, refuses to give up his office, and
installs a Republican dictatorship). There isn't one business-person
on the planet that wouldn't invest in a business that can open up an
entire market that was previously illegal. That, my friend, is called
"profitable".
**Again, nothing but talk and very premature... you have no design yet
to base any profitability claims.**


On the contrary..... I have a technical concept and it is legally
protected for 364 more days. I have business plan with high potential
profits, as well as a research project for my Master's degree. I also
have many years of experience running my own business and a very solid
background in electronic engineering, mostly in the RF field. So you
can believe me when I say that this amp is going to be built -and-
marketed, either by me or someone else. Not only that, but it may also
subjugate the statutory authority of the FCC, should they choose to
pursue it.

You, OTOH, have a run-of-the-mill CB amplifier that you can't legally
produce or protect. The quality of your product sucks; if it was good
it would sell itself and you wouldn't be spamming the newsgroup. You
can't even afford decent advertising, let alone an attorney to advise
you that this is an illegal and potentially expensive business venture
which may result in a felony conviction. You have nothing and are
risking everything, including your right to vote. Yet YOU are trying
to lecture ME about "profitability"? ROTFLMMFAO!!!!!


So go suck an egg, Brian (or tnom, or whatever alternative personality
you are using when you read this).

Jan Panteltje wrote:
Telstar has been at it now for years.....
At 4$ profit per amplifier you'd have to sell zillions.
:-)


Jan figure is just about right... the profit margin is very low.
Luckily, I don't do it for the money. My customers certainly know
that...

www.telstar-electronics.com

On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 12:25:43 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote in :

On a sunny day (Thu, 21 Sep 2006 03:53:36 -0700) it happened Frank Gilliland
wrote in
:

knowing that your market is limited in both scope and time. Feel free
to waste your time on a product that will soon be without a market.
The only thing you have going for you is the price.... but then again,
have you done any market research lately? Do you know what people will
pay for a decent amp? Probably not. But I have.

So now that the cat's out of the bag, how hard are you going to fight
this? Or would you rather buy into it and make a ****load of money?
Feel free to email me with your answer.

There is a problem here with 'profit'.
I just had a look at where I bought some other stuff, what amplifiers
here go for:
100W MOSFET 42 Euro and 86 cent ( 54 $ and 44 cent).
500W 242 Euro and 93 cent (308 $ and 58 cent).
1000W 660 Euro and 15 cent (838 $ and 55 cent).

Will indeed be hard to make any $$$$ on 100W amps.
Not so different in the US I think, 1700W 650$:
http://www.amateurlinearamplifiers.c...ce=hotproducts

500W 329$
http://www.amateurlinearamplifiers.c...ce=hotproducts


I cannot make 100W for 54$, and I cannot make 1700W for 650$......
You have to count the hours too.

Telstar has been at it now for years.....
At 4$ profit per amplifier you'd have to sell zillions.
:-)

OTOH as a learning exercise making them was great.
Just that I stopped when they were at in the street with the radio car to
arrest me, spotted them just in time.... OK maybe I had some harmonics...
and one licensed amateur was upset.... when he did see me with those big
toobes.
'If I hear you I will turn you in'.
He was later overrun by a car IIRC.
It somehow strengthened my faith in God.
But that is all of the past, and not on 27MHz.

Honestly.
Damn are we honest today.


That's friggin' twisted. I "found God" when I was in the USMC and lost
a KY-57. Not a good thing to lose. I eventually found it, but ever
since then I've been an atheist. Go figure.....

On a sunny day (Thu, 21 Sep 2006 05:38:08 -0700) it happened Frank Gilliland
wrote in
:

On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 12:25:43 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote in :

On a sunny day (Thu, 21 Sep 2006 03:53:36 -0700) it happened Frank Gilliland
wrote in
:

knowing that your market is limited in both scope and time. Feel free
to waste your time on a product that will soon be without a market.
The only thing you have going for you is the price.... but then again,
have you done any market research lately? Do you know what people will
pay for a decent amp? Probably not. But I have.

So now that the cat's out of the bag, how hard are you going to fight
this? Or would you rather buy into it and make a ****load of money?
Feel free to email me with your answer.

There is a problem here with 'profit'.
I just had a look at where I bought some other stuff, what amplifiers
here go for:
100W MOSFET 42 Euro and 86 cent ( 54 $ and 44 cent).
500W 242 Euro and 93 cent (308 $ and 58 cent).
1000W 660 Euro and 15 cent (838 $ and 55 cent).

Will indeed be hard to make any $$$$ on 100W amps.
Not so different in the US I think, 1700W 650$:
http://www.amateurlinearamplifiers.c...ce=hotproducts

500W 329$
http://www.amateurlinearamplifiers.c...ce=hotproducts


I cannot make 100W for 54$, and I cannot make 1700W for 650$......
You have to count the hours too.

Telstar has been at it now for years.....
At 4$ profit per amplifier you'd have to sell zillions.
:-)

OTOH as a learning exercise making them was great.
Just that I stopped when they were at in the street with the radio car to
arrest me, spotted them just in time.... OK maybe I had some harmonics...
and one licensed amateur was upset.... when he did see me with those big
toobes.
'If I hear you I will turn you in'.
He was later overrun by a car IIRC.
It somehow strengthened my faith in God.
But that is all of the past, and not on 27MHz.

Honestly.
Damn are we honest today.


That's friggin' twisted. I "found God" when I was in the USMC and lost
a KY-57. Not a good thing to lose. I eventually found it, but ever
since then I've been an atheist. Go figure.....

LOL, maybe it was used in-between by the Russians.
God -to me- is an experience inside yourself that causes bliss, stronger
then all the reasoning and thinking we do.

But in those years (sixties) in the sense of
'well there must be one after all' and 'divine justice' etc.
Or 'There but for fortune go you and I'.
It looks somehow some people are destined for some things, it always works
for them... Others do the same and fail.
And noting in nature can stop that, or change that.
Maybe that is cunning, some sort of awareness.
Some become astronauts, some lose state secrets... some always end up
with radio / tv equipment....
Maybe we have no free will, are a playing ball of all other forces in the
universe, and can see in a clear moment where we are thrown.

So we should not blame it on Telstar if anything is wrong with his amp.
I have to admit his PCB looks the nicest of all the ones at that site.
But whre is it heading? I dunno, but it is possible he does.

OK

Bu

Jan Panteltje wrote:
So we should not blame it on Telstar if anything is wrong with his amp.
I have to admit his PCB looks the nicest of all the ones at that site.
But whre is it heading? I dunno, but it is possible he does.

It's certainly true no design is perfect. The existing SkyWave has
proved to be a reliable design over the years. The new SkyWave
basically just adds the temperature compesated biasing. By controlling
the bias level when the amp heats up... this feature increases the
overall reliability even further by allowing the heat sink to run
significantly cooler. I don't waste resources on gimmicks like pre-amps
that just lower the overall reliability and don't really do anything.
If I add something to the design... I want it to be worth it. Where is
it heading?... a future revision already on the drawing board has both
over-temperature (using Analog devices TMP01) and excessive-swr
shutdown (using Sage Labs Wireline). When these two features are
incorporated... it should make the amplifier virtually indestructible
to burning up or antenna mismatches.

www.telstar-electronics.com

On a sunny day (21 Sep 2006 08:30:25 -0700) it happened "Telstar Electronics"
wrote in
om:

Jan Panteltje wrote:
So we should not blame it on Telstar if anything is wrong with his amp.
I have to admit his PCB looks the nicest of all the ones at that site.
But whre is it heading? I dunno, but it is possible he does.

It's certainly true no design is perfect. The existing SkyWave has
proved to be a reliable design over the years. The new SkyWave
basically just adds the temperature compesated biasing. By controlling
the bias level when the amp heats up... this feature increases the
overall reliability even further by allowing the heat sink to run
significantly cooler. I don't waste resources on gimmicks like pre-amps
that just lower the overall reliability and don't really do anything.
If I add something to the design... I want it to be worth it. Where is
it heading?... a future revision already on the drawing board has both
over-temperature (using Analog devices TMP01) and excessive-swr
shutdown (using Sage Labs Wireline). When these two features are
incorporated... it should make the amplifier virtually indestructible
to burning up or antenna mismatches.

www.telstar-electronics.com


SWR bridge, could be done with PCB tracks for 27MHz,
http://web.telia.com/~u85920178/use/swrpwr.htm

I opened my Pan SWR / power meter, and it has a zig-zag going PCB track
from RF in to RF out, and on each side of these a second track as in the above
link.
So the 2 tracks form a transformer with the main track.
No extra parts other then the diodes resistors and caps...

You can also feed the diode outputs into the analog input of a PIC,
and also the temp sensor, battery voltage, and rectified input voltage,
then you have in power, out power, SWR, and temperature to play with.
In the case of the micro (PIC) you can use one with EEPROM and calibrate
with a 50 Ohm dummyload for power.
No trimpots. The SWR is a ratio, can be done in software.
A PIC is almost cheaper then a trimpot these days...

I have tried to make some pics of the PCB of the SWR meter, but could
not get close with this lens.

Big view, out of focus:
ftp://panteltje.com/pub/s/1.jpg

This one, close up lens, the wide track goes directly from RF in to RF out PL259,
the thinner tracks next to it are the other windings:
ftp://panteltje.com/pub/s/2.jpg

See through with flashlight behind PCB:
ftp://panteltje.com/pub/s/3.jpg

All this should give you the picture how to do a SWR on a PCB.

Jan Panteltje wrote:
SWR bridge, could be done with PCB tracks for 27MHz,
I opened my Pan SWR / power meter, and it has a zig-zag going PCB track
from RF in to RF out, and on each side of these a second track as in the above
link.
So the 2 tracks form a transformer with the main track.
No extra parts other then the diodes resistors and caps...
You can also feed the diode outputs into the analog input of a PIC,
and also the temp sensor, battery voltage, and rectified input voltage,
then you have in power, out power, SWR, and temperature to play with.
In the case of the micro (PIC) you can use one with EEPROM and calibrate
with a 50 Ohm dummyload for power.
No trimpots. The SWR is a ratio, can be done in software.
A PIC is almost cheaper then a trimpot these days...
All this should give you the picture how to do a SWR on a PCB.

You're right... it could be done on the PCB. The main advantages with
the wireline are a great way of saving board space and is fully
shielded. Their performance is predictable, repeatable, and would avoid
some iterations of PCB layout I think. I have used them in the past
with excellent results.

www.telstar-electronics.com

On a sunny day (21 Sep 2006 10:55:07 -0700) it happened "Telstar Electronics"
wrote in
om:

Jan Panteltje wrote:
SWR bridge, could be done with PCB tracks for 27MHz,
I opened my Pan SWR / power meter, and it has a zig-zag going PCB track
from RF in to RF out, and on each side of these a second track as in the above
link.
So the 2 tracks form a transformer with the main track.
No extra parts other then the diodes resistors and caps...
You can also feed the diode outputs into the analog input of a PIC,
and also the temp sensor, battery voltage, and rectified input voltage,
then you have in power, out power, SWR, and temperature to play with.
In the case of the micro (PIC) you can use one with EEPROM and calibrate
with a 50 Ohm dummyload for power.
No trimpots. The SWR is a ratio, can be done in software.
A PIC is almost cheaper then a trimpot these days...
All this should give you the picture how to do a SWR on a PCB.

You're right... it could be done on the PCB. The main advantages with
the wireline are a great way of saving board space and is fully
shielded. Their performance is predictable, repeatable, and would avoid
some iterations of PCB layout I think. I have used them in the past
with excellent results.

www.telstar-electronics.com

Sure, was just trying to up you profit $ by not buying into alien tech.

Reliable -- In case you haven't been paying attention, the fundamental
concept of the design is longevity. These amps are going to be around
and working long after you and your amps are dead and buried.
**This is all talk right now. The fact that you will be using
components such as connectors for board-to-board interfacing does not
lend itself to high reliability.**


I didn't suspect you were tnom but you just gave yourself away.
Regardless, have you looked inside your computer lately? Did you
notice all those 'unreliable' connectors?

Computers become outdated in about five years. You would expect
connectors to last at least that long. Mobile amps stay in use much
longer so that your comparison to computer connectors is an apple
to orange comparison.

When was the last time you
opened up a piece of electronic equipment with a major brand name like
HP? Kenwood? GE? Motorola? Uniden? Do you really think that CONNECTORS
are an issue? Naw..... you are just looking for a reason to whine.

If you say your modular design is reliable then you must first define
reliable............HP's, Kenwoods, Motorolas that have been in use
for thirty years or more will all have connector problems. If those
same connectors were solder joints you would eliminate that aspect
of reliability. Amplifiers should be made to last even longer. Many
forty year old amplifiers are still in use today.

You should incorporate standard connectors for higher voltage lower
current lines. Use a combination connector for any combination of
higher current or lower voltage on a line. I don't have a specific
brand or link but these combination connectors can be plugged in for
ease of installation/adjustment and then soldered in place once you
are certain that you are done with your adjustment/installation.

On a sunny day (21 Sep 2006 10:55:07 -0700) it happened "Telstar Electronics"
wrote in
om:

Their performance is predictable, repeatable, and would avoid
some iterations of PCB layout I think.

As Frank mentioned, think modular for a moment.
You would test this on a simple piece of single sided scrap board,
(well I presume you can etch your own?) just for the SWR part.
Once you have a SWR meter correctly working you can either
take the layout and paste it into the main board, OK first time,
or make some header pins and solder bridges and use it as sub-board,
'option'.
I would do the first.
Many things I designed are just a combination of little pre-tested parts.
[That way] You get a library of circuits over time that works, like stones to
build a house, or castle.