snip
This may shock and dismay some people, but I agree with you Frank. A
102" stainless steel (or fiberglass) whip properly mounted will beat
shortened and loaded antennas any day.

Best location would be dead center on the roof, but with a cab-over
camper you can't do that permanently, although you could use a
mag-mount antenna and place it on top of the camper when you have it
onboard.
snip

A repost of a ACTUAL test:

The antennas:

108" SS whip
7 foot Firestik
5'4" X- Terminator double coil


The conditions of this test follow:

1. All connected to Hustler Quick disconnects
2. All used at 1.5 : 1 match or better
3. All tested with a constant tone, constant power transmitter
4. All used on a three magnet mount on the roof of a truck
5. All tested from a parked vehicle that never moved during each test
6. All tested within a very brief time period of each other (15 sec.)
7. All used a stationary Kenwood 940 receiver.
8. The 940 used a vertical beam free and clear of obstacles.
9. A video camera and a 31" television was used to display
a (31" S- METER) and record the results.

Thirteen mile free and clear of obstacles.

108" SS 5.2 s-units
Firestik 5.3 s-units
X-Term 5.4 s-units

Thirteen mile in the middle of the woods test

108" SS 3.3 s-units
Firestik 3.7 s-units
X-Term 3.9 s-units

Twenty four mile free and clear of obstacles.
108" SS .25 s-units
Firestik 1.3 s-units
X-Term 1.5 s-units

In , wrote:

snip
This may shock and dismay some people, but I agree with you Frank. A
102" stainless steel (or fiberglass) whip properly mounted will beat
shortened and loaded antennas any day.

Best location would be dead center on the roof, but with a cab-over
camper you can't do that permanently, although you could use a
mag-mount antenna and place it on top of the camper when you have it
onboard.
snip

A repost of a ACTUAL test:

Your test doesn't mean crap, and I'll tell you why. For starters, your -first-
test (that you failed to mention) using -two- receivers came up with
inconsistent results for five different antennas tested on the transmitter:

Tentec: F, 3.1 s units
E, 3.05
A, 3
B, 2.85
D, 2.7
C, 2.65

Kenwood: F, 2.3 s units
E&B tied at 2.2
D-C tied at 2.15
A, 2.1

This tells me that something is -definately- wrong with your testing procedure.

The conditions of this test follow:

1. All connected to Hustler Quick disconnects

That could be an issue if one or more of the connectors were not clean, assuming
they didn't use the same connector;

2. All used at 1.5 : 1 match or better

The match for each antenna was not listed, and I can only assume that they were
different. Regardless, what was the forward power with each antenna, and why was
that not listed?

3. All tested with a constant tone, constant power transmitter

Using....? An audio signal generator and a TRC-453? Was the radio modded? What
was the modulation percentage?

4. All used on a three magnet mount on the roof of a truck

Now there's a BIG problem -- improper grounding!

5. All tested from a parked vehicle that never moved during each test

How did the radio get power? Cigarette lighter? Six feet of 00-guage superflex?
Was the engine running? If not, was the battery voltage checked before and after
the tests?

6. All tested within a very brief time period of each other (15 sec.)

Save for the all-too-uncommon microburst, how is that significant?

7. All used a stationary Kenwood 940 receiver.

Why didn't you use two receivers for the second test?

8. The 940 used a vertical beam free and clear of obstacles.

Beam, schmeam. What was the resonant frequency of the antenna for the receiver?
What kind of match was on the receiver? Were all antennas tuned and tested on
the same freq?

9. A video camera and a 31" television was used to display
a (31" S- METER) and record the results.

Thirteen mile free and clear of obstacles.

At 13 miles, another issue you will have is radiation angle. I don't suppose you
measured that either, did you? Do you know why that is important? Because you
don't state the HAAT of the antenna for either the transmitter or the receiver,
nor do you state whether the 13/24 miles was flat. If you just wanted to get a
relative signal strength reading without the confound of HAAT, why did you
stroll 13 miles instead of only half a mile or so? All you needed to do was
clear the near-field, which most engineers consider to be six wavelengths for HF
(or 66 meters, a far cry from 13 miles where a lot can happen inbetween).

There are WAY too many issues with your test, and any or all of them could have
been a factor in your inconsistent readings. Looking back an those threads, it
appears that you already knew that, too.





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Your test doesn't mean crap, and I'll tell you why. For starters, your -first-
test (that you failed to mention) using -two- receivers came up with
inconsistent results for five different antennas tested on the transmitter:

Yes it did yield a inconsistency but the inconsistency was brought
about by very close results judged by real people. Something you
should expect in the real world. The second test (31" S-meter) was
like a slow motion replay. It gave me the ability to take more of the
human factor out.

Regardless of the inconsistency it was still shown that a 1/4 wave
SS antenna could be beat by a shorter antenna. This was consistent
with BOTH receivers.

Tentec: F, 3.1 s units
E, 3.05
A, 3
B, 2.85
D, 2.7
C, 2.65

Kenwood: F, 2.3 s units
E&B tied at 2.2
D-C tied at 2.15
A, 2.1

This tells me that something is -definately- wrong with your testing procedure.

The conditions of this test follow:

1. All connected to Hustler Quick disconnects

That could be an issue if one or more of the connectors were not clean, assuming
they didn't use the same connector;

They all used brand new connectors

2. All used at 1.5 : 1 match or better

The match for each antenna was not listed, and I can only assume that they were
different. Regardless, what was the forward power with each antenna, and why was
that not listed?

They were all adjusted for a SWR null before the test.

3. All tested with a constant tone, constant power transmitter

Using....? An audio signal generator and a TRC-453? Was the radio modded? What
was the modulation percentage?

A transmitter with no alc set for a constant low power carrier was
used.

4. All used on a three magnet mount on the roof of a truck

Now there's a BIG problem -- improper grounding!

Then at least they were all grounded similarity.

5. All tested from a parked vehicle that never moved during each test

How did the radio get power? Cigarette lighter? Six feet of 00-guage superflex?
Was the engine running? If not, was the battery voltage checked before and after
the tests?

The vehicle was off without any reduction of battery voltage over the
very short period of the test.

6. All tested within a very brief time period of each other (15 sec.)

Save for the all-too-uncommon microburst, how is that significant?

Your microburst? The one that occurred when I posted this test?

7. All used a stationary Kenwood 940 receiver.

Why didn't you use two receivers for the second test?

Because it was not needed. The ability to store and review the info
was more useful.

8. The 940 used a vertical beam free and clear of obstacles.

Beam, schmeam. What was the resonant frequency of the antenna for the receiver?
What kind of match was on the receiver? Were all antennas tuned and tested on
the same freq?

Everything was done on the same frequency. It doesn't matter what
frequency the receiving antenna was resonant on. All the received
signals were treated the same.

9. A video camera and a 31" television was used to display
a (31" S- METER) and record the results.

Thirteen mile free and clear of obstacles.

At 13 miles, another issue you will have is radiation angle. I don't suppose you
measured that either, did you? Do you know why that is important? Because you
don't state the HAAT of the antenna for either the transmitter or the receiver,
nor do you state whether the 13/24 miles was flat. If you just wanted to get a
relative signal strength reading without the confound of HAAT, why did you
stroll 13 miles instead of only half a mile or so? All you needed to do was
clear the near-field, which most engineers consider to be six wavelengths for HF
(or 66 meters, a far cry from 13 miles where a lot can happen inbetween).

I just posted the numbers. They are typical of real world results.
It's to bad that you can't stand that 1/4 wave SS whip can be beat.

There are WAY too many issues with your test, and any or all of them could have
been a factor in your inconsistent readings. Looking back an those threads, it
appears that you already knew that, too.

I'm sorry that you are upset. The numbers speak for themselves. If you
don't like them then get off your ass and run a test yourself.

In , wrote:



Your test doesn't mean crap, and I'll tell you why. For starters, your -first-
test (that you failed to mention) using -two- receivers came up with
inconsistent results for five different antennas tested on the transmitter:

Yes it did yield a inconsistency but the inconsistency was brought
about by very close results judged by real people. Something you
should expect in the real world. The second test (31" S-meter) was
like a slow motion replay. It gave me the ability to take more of the
human factor out.

What "human factor"? Are these 'humans' incapable of reading a meter? How much
judgment does it take to look at the meter, see that the little needle is
pointing to xx.x, then write it down?

Regardless of the inconsistency it was still shown that a 1/4 wave
SS antenna could be beat by a shorter antenna. This was consistent
with BOTH receivers.

Your results are moot BECAUSE of your inconsistancies -- they demonstrate that
you didn't know what the hell you were doing!

Tentec: F, 3.1 s units
E, 3.05
A, 3
B, 2.85
D, 2.7
C, 2.65

Kenwood: F, 2.3 s units
E&B tied at 2.2
D-C tied at 2.15
A, 2.1

This tells me that something is -definately- wrong with your testing procedure.

The conditions of this test follow:

1. All connected to Hustler Quick disconnects

That could be an issue if one or more of the connectors were not clean, assuming
they didn't use the same connector;

They all used brand new connectors

That doesn't mean anything.

2. All used at 1.5 : 1 match or better

The match for each antenna was not listed, and I can only assume that they were
different. Regardless, what was the forward power with each antenna, and why was
that not listed?

They were all adjusted for a SWR null before the test.

WTF is a "SWR null"? You used a bridge? If you did and they all "nulled", why
didn't you say so instead of saying that they all matched at 1.5:1 or better?

3. All tested with a constant tone, constant power transmitter

Using....? An audio signal generator and a TRC-453? Was the radio modded? What
was the modulation percentage?

A transmitter with no alc set for a constant low power carrier was
used.

A transmitter with swang and no limiter. Gee, what a suprise. Once again, what
was the modulation percentage? And knowing the radio is modified for swang, how
was the modulation percentage measured?

4. All used on a three magnet mount on the roof of a truck

Now there's a BIG problem -- improper grounding!

Then at least they were all grounded similarity.

Yes... inadequately. With improper grounding at the base of the antenna, where
does part of your signal go (ESPECIALLY with mag-mounts)? Right off the coax! So
you weren't testing just antennas, you were testing antenna/radiating-coax
antenna systems.


5. All tested from a parked vehicle that never moved during each test

How did the radio get power? Cigarette lighter? Six feet of 00-guage superflex?
Was the engine running? If not, was the battery voltage checked before and after
the tests?

The vehicle was off without any reduction of battery voltage over the
very short period of the test.

You didn't say how the radio was powered. Was it measured at the radio during
transmit? If you used a cig lighter, you can drop a volt or two on key-up. If
the radio wasn't properly grounded, that will affect how much power goes out the
antenna just as much as SWR. And by 'properly grounded' I mean RF ground, not DC
ground. Well?

6. All tested within a very brief time period of each other (15 sec.)

Save for the all-too-uncommon microburst, how is that significant?

Your microburst? The one that occurred when I posted this test?

7. All used a stationary Kenwood 940 receiver.

Why didn't you use two receivers for the second test?

Because it was not needed. The ability to store and review the info
was more useful.

In other words, you wanted to avoid the confound of getting dissimilar results.


8. The 940 used a vertical beam free and clear of obstacles.

Beam, schmeam. What was the resonant frequency of the antenna for the receiver?
What kind of match was on the receiver? Were all antennas tuned and tested on
the same freq?

Everything was done on the same frequency. It doesn't matter what
frequency the receiving antenna was resonant on. All the received
signals were treated the same.

And not read from the meter, but 'judged' by you. Ok, Tnom.

9. A video camera and a 31" television was used to display
a (31" S- METER) and record the results.

Thirteen mile free and clear of obstacles.

At 13 miles, another issue you will have is radiation angle. I don't suppose you
measured that either, did you? Do you know why that is important? Because you
don't state the HAAT of the antenna for either the transmitter or the receiver,
nor do you state whether the 13/24 miles was flat. If you just wanted to get a
relative signal strength reading without the confound of HAAT, why did you
stroll 13 miles instead of only half a mile or so? All you needed to do was
clear the near-field, which most engineers consider to be six wavelengths for HF
(or 66 meters, a far cry from 13 miles where a lot can happen inbetween).

I just posted the numbers. They are typical of real world results.
It's to bad that you can't stand that 1/4 wave SS whip can be beat.

I don't know what "real world" you live in but it ain't the same one as me. I
have (and still do) use several different mobile antennas on several different
vehicles, and the 9' whip beats them all hands down.

There are WAY too many issues with your test, and any or all of them could have
been a factor in your inconsistent readings. Looking back an those threads, it
appears that you already knew that, too.

I'm sorry that you are upset. The numbers speak for themselves. If you
don't like them then get off your ass and run a test yourself.

I have, and I don't have to post fudged numbers to prove it. Anyone can just get
on the air and find out for themselves.





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2. All used at 1.5 : 1 match or better

The match for each antenna was not listed, and I can only assume that they were
different. Regardless, what was the forward power with each antenna, and why was
that not listed?

No need

They were all adjusted for a SWR null before the test.

WTF is a "SWR null"? You used a bridge? If you did and they all "nulled", why
didn't you say so instead of saying that they all matched at 1.5:1 or better?

And they all had a 1.5 or better when nulled.

3. All tested with a constant tone, constant power transmitter

Using....? An audio signal generator and a TRC-453? Was the radio modded? What
was the modulation percentage?

A transmitter with no alc set for a constant low power carrier was
used.

A transmitter with swang and no limiter. Gee, what a suprise. Once again, what
was the modulation percentage? And knowing the radio is modified for swang, how
was the modulation percentage measured?

There was no modulation and there was no swang. The only swang
around here is yourself. You swang any which way in a attempt to make
a point.

4. All used on a three magnet mount on the roof of a truck

Now there's a BIG problem -- improper grounding!

Then at least they were all grounded similarity.

Yes... inadequately. With improper grounding at the base of the antenna, where
does part of your signal go (ESPECIALLY with mag-mounts)? Right off the coax! So
you weren't testing just antennas, you were testing antenna/radiating-coax
antenna systems.

I posted the parameters. A valid parameter is a mag mount.

5. All tested from a parked vehicle that never moved during each test

How did the radio get power? Cigarette lighter? Six feet of 00-guage superflex?
Was the engine running? If not, was the battery voltage checked before and after
the tests?

The vehicle was off without any reduction of battery voltage over the
very short period of the test.

You didn't say how the radio was powered. Was it measured at the radio during
transmit? If you used a cig lighter, you can drop a volt or two on key-up. If
the radio wasn't properly grounded, that will affect how much power goes out the
antenna just as much as SWR. And by 'properly grounded' I mean RF ground, not DC
ground. Well?

I don't have to say what the voltage was. I don't have to include how
it was powered. All I have to say is this. The battery wasn't
straining.The battery wasn't dropping voltage between antennas.


Why didn't you use two receivers for the second test?

Because it was not needed. The ability to store and review the info
was more useful.

In other words, you wanted to avoid the confound of getting dissimilar results.

No. I wanted something similar to slow motion replay. I not only got
that but got the image magnified at the same time.


Everything was done on the same frequency. It doesn't matter what
frequency the receiving antenna was resonant on. All the received
signals were treated the same.

And not read from the meter, but 'judged' by you. Ok, Tnom.

Judged and reported by me. One who would actually spend the time to do
the test. What about you Frank? You are awful judgeMENTAL. You have
reached a judgement with no test at all.

9. A video camera and a 31" television was used to display
a (31" S- METER) and record the results.

Thirteen mile free and clear of obstacles.

At 13 miles, another issue you will have is radiation angle. I don't suppose you
measured that either, did you? Do you know why that is important? Because you
don't state the HAAT of the antenna for either the transmitter or the receiver,
nor do you state whether the 13/24 miles was flat. If you just wanted to get a
relative signal strength reading without the confound of HAAT, why did you
stroll 13 miles instead of only half a mile or so? All you needed to do was
clear the near-field, which most engineers consider to be six wavelengths for HF
(or 66 meters, a far cry from 13 miles where a lot can happen inbetween).

I just posted the numbers. They are typical of real world results.
It's to bad that you can't stand that 1/4 wave SS whip can be beat.

I don't know what "real world" you live in but it ain't the same one as me. I
have (and still do) use several different mobile antennas on several different
vehicles, and the 9' whip beats them all hands down.

If it is the Stainless Steel variety then PROVE IT !

There are WAY too many issues with your test, and any or all of them could have
been a factor in your inconsistent readings. Looking back an those threads, it
appears that you already knew that, too.

I'm sorry that you are upset. The numbers speak for themselves. If you
don't like them then get off your ass and run a test yourself.

I have, and I don't have to post fudged numbers to prove it. Anyone can just get
on the air and find out for themselves.

My numbers aren't fudged. They were just reported as is.

Tell me this. If the numbers were fudged why would I leave the
inconsistent results as is.

The only thing that is fudged is your mind. You fudge your thinking
and have ruled out ever being wrong.

In , wrote:


2. All used at 1.5 : 1 match or better

The match for each antenna was not listed, and I can only assume that they were
different. Regardless, what was the forward power with each antenna, and why was
that not listed?

No need

-plonk-






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