"Drink" wrote in message ...
For the Group: Is it plausible to pass data through a repeater above or
below voice just like the subaudible tones?

It is possible, but you asked the right question - is it PLAUSIBLE?
In other words, does it make useful or economic sense for your
application?

What useful information would you be sending while you were talking?

Are you willing to come up with your own modem design? (as I doubt if
there are any "off-the-shelf" designs you are going to be able to use)

- Stewart

"stewart" wrote in message
om...
"Drink" wrote in message
...

What useful information would you be sending while you were talking?

Stuff that's faster, easier, and more accurate to type/read rather than it
is to speak/hear! Lots of stuff like that. Get briefed on the basic
situation while the detailed data uploads.

If somebody comes up with a subaudible tone data system, even at a low data
rate, I'd like to hear about it.

Charles, N5PVL

"stewart" wrote in message
om...
"Drink" wrote in message
...

What useful information would you be sending while you were talking?

Stuff that's faster, easier, and more accurate to type/read rather than it
is to speak/hear! Lots of stuff like that. Get briefed on the basic
situation while the detailed data uploads.

If somebody comes up with a subaudible tone data system, even at a low data
rate, I'd like to hear about it.

Charles, N5PVL

The question about sending data using subaudible tones reminded me of a
quick 'n dirty soundcard digital setup I found for use over voice repeaters.
You can't talk while its working, but it does allow you to go back 'n forth
between voice and data. There are probably times when that would be useful.

I was playing around with FlexNet's Flex32 version of Q15x25 mode, called
"newqpsk". This mode is intended for HF, and uses fifteen 88.3 baud PSK
streams to give you an effective 2500 baud. I decided to try it out on VHF,
then decided to try bumping the TXDELAY up around 500-600 MS and see if it
would work over the local voice repeater, connecting to another VHF newqpsk
station in town on that frequency.

It worked very well! I was at home, and my friend had a laptop in his truck
across town. We were able to do all the regular digital stuff. Newqpsk is a
lot like packet to use, but of course sounds very different. You can send
binary files with it, because it has error correction like packet.

The easiest way to check out newqpsk in Flex32 is to see the "Soundcard
Packet" tutorial at USPN, that describes the setup of Flex32 for 1200 baud
afsk packet. On the part where you choose afsk for the soundmodem from a
dropdown menu, just go down to the bottom of the list and choose newqpsk
instead. That's the main difference between setting Flex32 up for newqpsk
instead of packet. When reading the tutorial, don't miss the part at the
last where it recommends the PAXON terminal program. You'll be glad you did,
PAXON is really nice.

This is not bad; A 2500 baud digital setup that can be used anywhere there
is a voice repeater. The high TXDELAY introduces some slowup, but overall
it's fairly snappy. - Good enough to get some lengthy or involved text sent
across, or perhaps a small binary file like a JPEG. Since it's a soundcard
mode, it's very portable and the price is right too. (free)

Note: The MixW Q15x25 dll package sets you up with an interleave of 16. To
make the Flex32 newqpsk version compatible on the air with MixW stations,
bump its interleave up to 16 as well.

Charles Brabham, N5PVL
http://www.uspacket.net

The question about sending data using subaudible tones reminded me of a
quick 'n dirty soundcard digital setup I found for use over voice repeaters.
You can't talk while its working, but it does allow you to go back 'n forth
between voice and data. There are probably times when that would be useful.

I was playing around with FlexNet's Flex32 version of Q15x25 mode, called
"newqpsk". This mode is intended for HF, and uses fifteen 88.3 baud PSK
streams to give you an effective 2500 baud. I decided to try it out on VHF,
then decided to try bumping the TXDELAY up around 500-600 MS and see if it
would work over the local voice repeater, connecting to another VHF newqpsk
station in town on that frequency.

It worked very well! I was at home, and my friend had a laptop in his truck
across town. We were able to do all the regular digital stuff. Newqpsk is a
lot like packet to use, but of course sounds very different. You can send
binary files with it, because it has error correction like packet.

The easiest way to check out newqpsk in Flex32 is to see the "Soundcard
Packet" tutorial at USPN, that describes the setup of Flex32 for 1200 baud
afsk packet. On the part where you choose afsk for the soundmodem from a
dropdown menu, just go down to the bottom of the list and choose newqpsk
instead. That's the main difference between setting Flex32 up for newqpsk
instead of packet. When reading the tutorial, don't miss the part at the
last where it recommends the PAXON terminal program. You'll be glad you did,
PAXON is really nice.

This is not bad; A 2500 baud digital setup that can be used anywhere there
is a voice repeater. The high TXDELAY introduces some slowup, but overall
it's fairly snappy. - Good enough to get some lengthy or involved text sent
across, or perhaps a small binary file like a JPEG. Since it's a soundcard
mode, it's very portable and the price is right too. (free)

Note: The MixW Q15x25 dll package sets you up with an interleave of 16. To
make the Flex32 newqpsk version compatible on the air with MixW stations,
bump its interleave up to 16 as well.

Charles Brabham, N5PVL
http://www.uspacket.net

charlesb wrote:

If somebody comes up with a subaudible tone data system, even at a low data
rate, I'd like to hear about it.

Motorola land mobile radios in the pre-trunking days
had an option for something they trademarked as
"Digital Private Line". It was basically 100 baud
data, IIRC, sent as base-band data with the voice
(in other words, 100baud data stream directly
mixed with audio). The radios obviously needed
good DC-response. The sequence sent was something
like a 23-bit pattern was FEC-expanded from a 16-bit
or somesuch digital code. I think there was also
the equivalent of traditional "reverse-burst", a
sequence sent to mute the receiver when the transmitter
unkeyed, to avoid a burst of unsquelched noise.

100 baud data has a base-band bandwidth well-inside
traditional PL if well-filtered or sent use a
raised-cosine/DDS arrangement. Alternating
1s and 0s produce a 200Hz sine wave. Existing
PL filters in receivers and repeaters would filter
DPL out as if it was regular PL. In this sense,
it was quite compatible with existing PL.

Certainly DPL provides a wealth of interesting
background; you can find examples of the hardware
in service manuals for MCX100s and other 1980s
vintage Motorola land-mobile. I'm sure other
OEMs had similar technology.

They key item to successfully sending low-baud
data over an FM transmitter is low distortion,
which means a transmitter with near-DC response;
this is achieved by modulating both the VCO and
reference oscillator in a PLL system. Most ham
radios I've looked at are unsuitable since they
only modulate the VCO and the PLL will suppress
modulation below 50Hz or so.

The other key lesson here is adopting a heavy
FEC approach since you're not in a packet mode,
you're bussing data along with voice. Send short
chunks of data which are robustly FEC-encoded.
It may limit what you can actually send during a
normal voice contact.

Dana

charlesb wrote:

If somebody comes up with a subaudible tone data system, even at a low data
rate, I'd like to hear about it.

Motorola land mobile radios in the pre-trunking days
had an option for something they trademarked as
"Digital Private Line". It was basically 100 baud
data, IIRC, sent as base-band data with the voice
(in other words, 100baud data stream directly
mixed with audio). The radios obviously needed
good DC-response. The sequence sent was something
like a 23-bit pattern was FEC-expanded from a 16-bit
or somesuch digital code. I think there was also
the equivalent of traditional "reverse-burst", a
sequence sent to mute the receiver when the transmitter
unkeyed, to avoid a burst of unsquelched noise.

100 baud data has a base-band bandwidth well-inside
traditional PL if well-filtered or sent use a
raised-cosine/DDS arrangement. Alternating
1s and 0s produce a 200Hz sine wave. Existing
PL filters in receivers and repeaters would filter
DPL out as if it was regular PL. In this sense,
it was quite compatible with existing PL.

Certainly DPL provides a wealth of interesting
background; you can find examples of the hardware
in service manuals for MCX100s and other 1980s
vintage Motorola land-mobile. I'm sure other
OEMs had similar technology.

They key item to successfully sending low-baud
data over an FM transmitter is low distortion,
which means a transmitter with near-DC response;
this is achieved by modulating both the VCO and
reference oscillator in a PLL system. Most ham
radios I've looked at are unsuitable since they
only modulate the VCO and the PLL will suppress
modulation below 50Hz or so.

The other key lesson here is adopting a heavy
FEC approach since you're not in a packet mode,
you're bussing data along with voice. Send short
chunks of data which are robustly FEC-encoded.
It may limit what you can actually send during a
normal voice contact.

Dana

"stewart" wrote in message
om...
"MRQuickBoard" wrote in message
...
How Do I Use Radio As A Internet Connection, i am wanting to know how i can
use a mobile ham radio and hook it up to a laptop to be able to connect to
the internet so i can use irc chat dont need fast connection speed. would
like to be able to chat on IRC while camping/fishing ware no cell service
is
avaiable.

Don't let these folks discourage you. If you don't want to put up
with a bunch of naysaying hams, look into going the licenseless route
with MURS. MURS allows digital communications, up to 2W transmitter
power, and best of all, gain antennas (so you can construct
communications links having fairly decent comm range).

And where would one purchase such equipment?
Let me guess!

For more information on MURS:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MURS-OPEN

Again, I respect you interest in radios, and your application, and
depending on your application you may be able to get by without
directly messing with ham radio... although, if you catch the radio
bug, you may find you want to get a ham license after all.

Again, don't let these folks discourage you.

You just did exactly what you complained about Stew.
You discouraged the use of ham radio.
Please take your MURS trolls to the appropriate newsgroup.
Seems like every time someone suggests using ham radio
you pop right up again and advertise the MURS solution.

Why is that?

- Stewart


--

... Hank

Hank: http://horedson.home.att.net
W0RLI: http://w0rli.home.att.net

"stewart" wrote in message
om...
"MRQuickBoard" wrote in message
...
How Do I Use Radio As A Internet Connection, i am wanting to know how i can
use a mobile ham radio and hook it up to a laptop to be able to connect to
the internet so i can use irc chat dont need fast connection speed. would
like to be able to chat on IRC while camping/fishing ware no cell service
is
avaiable.

Don't let these folks discourage you. If you don't want to put up
with a bunch of naysaying hams, look into going the licenseless route
with MURS. MURS allows digital communications, up to 2W transmitter
power, and best of all, gain antennas (so you can construct
communications links having fairly decent comm range).

And where would one purchase such equipment?
Let me guess!

For more information on MURS:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MURS-OPEN

Again, I respect you interest in radios, and your application, and
depending on your application you may be able to get by without
directly messing with ham radio... although, if you catch the radio
bug, you may find you want to get a ham license after all.

Again, don't let these folks discourage you.

You just did exactly what you complained about Stew.
You discouraged the use of ham radio.
Please take your MURS trolls to the appropriate newsgroup.
Seems like every time someone suggests using ham radio
you pop right up again and advertise the MURS solution.

Why is that?

- Stewart


--

... Hank

Hank: http://horedson.home.att.net
W0RLI: http://w0rli.home.att.net