Robert Casey wrote in news:PxAod.10361$Qh3.9984
@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net:


At least the FCC did do something about club calls. They took 42 of
them away from a JA few years back :-) But for some strange reason,
they let him keep his primary station license, a W9 extra class U.S.
call.

73, Jim KH2D


Maybe they should get calls like WJ#XXX, or KJ#XXX...
If the FCC decides that it's proper for foriegners to
get American ham licenses.....


Foreigners have been able to get US licences for many decades. I'm one.

Only representatives of a foreign government can't get a US call. Try
reading Part 97.

73 de Alun, N3KIP

On 23 Nov 2004 06:29:39 GMT, Alun wrote:

Foreigners have been able to get US licences for many decades. I'm one.

Only representatives of a foreign government can't get a US call. Try
reading Part 97.

73 de Alun, N3KIP

I have read it. A few times. If you live in the U.S. and get a U.S.
license, I doubt there's any complaints. If you live in Germany,
have never been to the U.S., and never intend to go to the U.S.,
I doubt many people would deem it necessary for you to have a
U.S. license.

73, Jim KH2D

wrote in :

On 23 Nov 2004 06:29:39 GMT, Alun wrote:

Foreigners have been able to get US licences for many decades. I'm one.

Only representatives of a foreign government can't get a US call. Try
reading Part 97.

73 de Alun, N3KIP

I have read it. A few times. If you live in the U.S. and get a U.S.
license, I doubt there's any complaints. If you live in Germany,
have never been to the U.S., and never intend to go to the U.S.,
I doubt many people would deem it necessary for you to have a
U.S. license.

73, Jim KH2D




Quite true, but if you live in Germany and nip down to your local USAF
facility for a VE sesion you can get a US licence, all legal and above
board.

There's an obvious solution. If someone takes a VE test overseas and has no
US address, they ought to be given a sequentially issued call in one of the
less populous FCC districts, say the 1st district.

On 24 Nov 2004 01:31:47 GMT, Alun wrote:

Quite true, but if you live in Germany and nip down to your local USAF
facility for a VE sesion you can get a US licence, all legal and above
board.

There's an obvious solution. If someone takes a VE test overseas and has no
US address, they ought to be given a sequentially issued call in one of the
less populous FCC districts, say the 1st district.

Or they should be told to buzz off. Why should any U.S. license be
issued to someone in a foreign country that has no intention of using
it in the U.S. ?

And with the CEPT stuff, there's even more reason not to issue U.S.
licenses in many countries.

73, Jim KH2D

wrote in
:

On 24 Nov 2004 01:31:47 GMT, Alun wrote:

Quite true, but if you live in Germany and nip down to your local USAF
facility for a VE sesion you can get a US licence, all legal and above
board.

There's an obvious solution. If someone takes a VE test overseas and
has no US address, they ought to be given a sequentially issued call in
one of the less populous FCC districts, say the 1st district.

Or they should be told to buzz off. Why should any U.S. license be
issued to someone in a foreign country that has no intention of using
it in the U.S. ?

And with the CEPT stuff, there's even more reason not to issue U.S.
licenses in many countries.

73, Jim KH2D


The problem with CEPT operation under a foreign call is that non-residence
is a required condition. This means, amongst other things, that having a
green card completely bars operation in the US under CEPT.

However, anyone who has a licence from a country that has an ordinary
bilateral reciprocal agrrement with the US can operate in the US even as a
permanent resident for an indefinite period of time.

In both cases, FCC rules impose further conditions:-

1) They must not be a US citizen;

2) They must be a citizen of the country that issued their licence; and

3) They must not have a US licence.

OTOH, the rules for obtaining a regular US licence leave it open to anyone
except a representative of a foreign government. This is supposed to be so
that listening stations can separate diplomats from other hams by their
non-US calls. This exception seems to be allowable because of an overriding
government interest.

What would you have the FCC do differently?

It doesn't seem likely that you could get back to the situation where
foreign hams in general couldn't get a US call, as this would likely not
make it past the due process clause.

If you could acheive that I'd still be OK, as I could use W3/my UK call
forever if I didn't have a US call. Others wouldn't be so lucky. If they
came from a country with no bilateral agreement (remember CEPT is no help
to US residents), or if they were citizens of one country with a licence
from another, or even if they just got into the hobby after coming to live
in the US, those guys would all be QRT. That's how it used to be in the bad
old days.

So maybe you'd like to ban VE tests held outside the US? That would be hard
on your military. How do you get licenced if you are posted somewhere that
you don't speak the language? Well, one way is to get a licence from your
own country by taking a test in your own language, and then get reciprocal
privileges. Granted, I can't think of other examples of countries offering
testing outside their borders, but not many have a VE system either. I
think VK does. I wonder if you can take their tests outside VK?

Another suggestion I saw in this thread was to stop aliens from being VEs.
I don't think that would fly constitutionally speaking either. BTW, I'm a
VE myself. I don't think it would harm me that much if I couldn't be a VE.
You could volunteer to explain that to any Americans that might want to
take a test but couldn't because we could only muster 2 VEs that day.

Perhaps it would be possible to tinker with the rules only for VE tests
held outside the US, restricting the nationality of either the VEs and/or
the candidates. OTOH, it's possible that if you did that you might run
afoul of the civil rights laws of the host countries.

So, what do you seriously suggest?

I don't really think anyone cares if someone in Japan can get a call that
belongs to the mainland US. All that really seems to be needed is some way
to prevent those testing overseas from getting an exotic offshore US call.
Arguably, those in the mainland US shouldn't be able to either, but the FCC
doesn't regard this as important.

On 26 Nov 2004 04:22:50 GMT, Alun wrote:

However, anyone who has a licence from a country that has an ordinary
bilateral reciprocal agrrement with the US can operate in the US even as a
permanent resident for an indefinite period of time.

An excellent reason to never issue a U.S. call sign to a Japanese ham.
There is no circumstance where they'd NEED a U.S. license, because
they can operate in the U.S. or in any U.S. territory with their
Japanese license. Throw stroke whatever on the end of their JA call
and they're good to go. No paperwork required, no resources wasted.

So maybe you'd like to ban VE tests held outside the US? That would be hard
on your military. How do you get licenced if you are posted somewhere that
you don't speak the language?

No, I wouldn't. You go to the U.S. Embassy or a U.S. military base and
take the test. Think about this - How do you pass a test in Japan
that's in English if you don't speak English? Remember that song from
the 70's? With a little help from your friends?

Another suggestion I saw in this thread was to stop aliens from being VEs.
I don't think that would fly constitutionally speaking either.

You're missing the whole point, Alun. The U.S. Constitution does NOT
apply to Japanese nationals who live in Japan. You live in the U.S.
You're a VE, and help other VE's in the U.S. give tests. That's
wonderful, and the fact that you're not a U.S. citizen doesn't bother
me a bit. I'm not a lawyer, so I'm not sure you have any
constitutional rights in the U.S. or that you were allowed to vote in
the presidential election, but that's not the point here.

If three Filipino's give a VE test for licenses in the Philippines,
that bothers me. If three Japanese hams give a VE test for U.S.
licenses in Tokyo, that bothers me. And I'm sure it would bother a lot
of other hams in the U.S.

So, what do you seriously suggest?

Cut out the world wide bogus VE testing. If you are U.S. military or
U.S. civilian overseas, you go to the U.S. Embassy or a U.S. military
base and take the test. And you prove to the people administering the
test that the address you put on the 610 form is REALLY where you
live, and not a P.O. Box at Mailboxes Plus that you and your buddies
chipped in to pay for, or the P.O. Box number of the Guam QSL bureau.

I don't really think anyone cares if someone in Japan can get a call that
belongs to the mainland US.

I think if you did a poll of U.S. hams, you'd find that thinking is
way out in left field.

Maybe it'll help you see the big picture if we sum it up one more
time:

If you are a ham from ANY country and you LIVE in the U.S., and you
can't operate in the U.S. under CEPT agreements, then by all means you
should be allowed to take the test (in the U.S.) and get a U.S.
license.

BUT - If you're a ham that lives in the Philippines, and you think it
would be neato keen kool as a moose to have a U.S. license just for
the hell of it, you should NOT be allowed to get one - and most
certainly not when the test is given by three other Filipino hams who
have never been to the U.S. but somehow managed to get U.S. licenses
and sign up with W5YI.

Wouldn't it have been nice if all the final exams we took in school
were administered by our classmates at the bowling alley on Saturday
night with no teachers around to watch? I bet if we used that system,
it wouldn't have taken me eight years to finish high school.....

AND - If you are a Japanese ham that lives in Japan, and you think
that it would be kewl to have a U.S. license so that when you go to
VP9 for vacation you can pretend you're from the U.S. so you're
allowed to operate in VP9, or because a U.S. call would look kewl on
your QSL card, you should NOT be allowed to get one.

Nobody has a problem with hams that are REALLY in the U.S. getting a
license, no matter where they were born and raised. It's not a
citizenship thing. Nobody has a problem with you getting a license in
the U.S. even though you don't really need one, because you ARE in the
U.S.

The problem is with hams who have NEVER been in the U.S., or never
intend to BE in the U.S. getting licenses they don't really need or
ever intend to use in the U.S. OR that they intend to use as an
International Radio Passport.

Example: All the KH0/KH2/KH7/Wxxx calls issued to JA's. Some of them
operate in Guam or Saipan, once, or once in a while. Many don't ever
operate there. Now that the CEPT agreement covers Japan, they don't
NEED a U.S. license so it's a waste of resources and call signs to
issue them one and it allows them to falsely present themselves as
U.S. hams in other countries to obtain reciprocal operating privledges
that they couldn't get with a Japanese license. Before CEPT if they
wanted to operate in Guam, they had to get a U.S. license or a
reciprocal license. Those days are over.

Why shouldn't 3 JA's be allowed to test me for a U.S. ham license in
Japan? The same reason I can't take a test for a Florida drivers
license in Japan at the Tokyo Motor Vehicle Department. Because it
makes no damn sense.

73, Jim KH2D

On 26 Nov 2004 04:22:50 GMT, Alun wrote:

So, what do you seriously suggest?

I call this the Ferner radio act of 2005:


The first thing that must be done is to determine what is a desirable
callsign.

Although we can't tell in all cases, most would agree that:

1X2
2X1
1X3
2X2

are the most desirable

2X3 licenses are the least desirable of the lot.


But! some may find them desirable.

So in the interest of finding the least desriable callsigns for ferners
to use, I would suggest that we make a new class of 5X5 callsigns.

This would keep the callsigns away from the prefixes already assigned
to the different countries, and would eliminate any question of ferners
gobbling up those desirable ones.

It will be important to have an oversight committee set up to make sure
that the callsign is not accidentally desireable. Efforts must be made
so that no feren ham has his or her initials in their callsign.

All testing must take place at an embassy, and be approved by the
respective countries legislative branches, as well as the respectice
countries radio commissions.

The ferner must pay for a specially trained and reputable VE to be
flown to the place of testing.

How's that?

...............CQ CQ CQ de KAESB3WRTCD............... hmmmm

- Mike KB3EIA -

On 26 Nov 2004 04:22:50 GMT, Alun wrote:

So, what do you seriously suggest?

I call this the Ferner radio act of 2005:


The first thing that must be done is to determine what is a desirable
callsign.

Although we can't tell in all cases, most would agree that:

1X2
2X1
1X3
2X2

are the most desirable

2X3 licenses are the least desirable of the lot.


But! some may find them desirable.

So in the interest of finding the least desriable callsigns for ferners
to use, I would suggest that we make a new class of 5X5 callsigns.

This would keep the callsigns away from the prefixes already assigned
to the different countries, and would eliminate any question of ferners
gobbling up those desirable ones.

It will be important to have an oversight committee set up to make sure
that the callsign is not accidentally desireable. Efforts must be made
so that no feren ham has his or her initials in their callsign.

All testing must take place at an embassy, and be approved by the
respective countries legislative branches, as well as the respectice
countries radio commissions.

The ferner must pay for a specially trained and reputable VE to be
flown to the place of testing.

How's that?

...............CQ CQ CQ de KAESB3WRTCD............... hmmmm

- Mike KB3EIA -

wrote in
:

On 26 Nov 2004 04:22:50 GMT, Alun wrote:

However, anyone who has a licence from a country that has an ordinary
bilateral reciprocal agrrement with the US can operate in the US even
as a permanent resident for an indefinite period of time.

An excellent reason to never issue a U.S. call sign to a Japanese ham.
There is no circumstance where they'd NEED a U.S. license, because
they can operate in the U.S. or in any U.S. territory with their
Japanese license. Throw stroke whatever on the end of their JA call
and they're good to go. No paperwork required, no resources wasted.

So maybe you'd like to ban VE tests held outside the US? That would be
hard on your military. How do you get licenced if you are posted
somewhere that you don't speak the language?

No, I wouldn't. You go to the U.S. Embassy or a U.S. military base and
take the test. Think about this - How do you pass a test in Japan
that's in English if you don't speak English? Remember that song from
the 70's? With a little help from your friends?

Another suggestion I saw in this thread was to stop aliens from being
VEs. I don't think that would fly constitutionally speaking either.

You're missing the whole point, Alun. The U.S. Constitution does NOT
apply to Japanese nationals who live in Japan. You live in the U.S.
You're a VE, and help other VE's in the U.S. give tests. That's
wonderful, and the fact that you're not a U.S. citizen doesn't bother
me a bit. I'm not a lawyer, so I'm not sure you have any
constitutional rights in the U.S. or that you were allowed to vote in
the presidential election, but that's not the point here.


I am not a lawyer either, but FWIW resident aliens do have constitutional
rights under the due process clause of the 5th amendment and under the
equal protection clause of the 14th amendment, although the latter only
applies to the states and not the feds.

You're right about aliens overseas not having constitutuonal rights,
though.

As for voting, there's nothing in the constiution to say that aliens can't
vote. As we all know from the last two elections, voting is administered at
the state and local level, not by the feds. Here in Maryland, aliens can
vote in city elections in Takoma Park, but that isn't where I live. I
understand that as recently as the 19th century many states did allow
aliens to vote, which may have made sense when everyone was an immigrant.

Come to think of it, as equal protection under state law does apply to
aliens, how long will it be before someone tries to file suit to get voting
rights for aliens, maybe even illegal aliens?

If three Filipino's give a VE test for licenses in the Philippines,
that bothers me. If three Japanese hams give a VE test for U.S.
licenses in Tokyo, that bothers me. And I'm sure it would bother a lot
of other hams in the U.S.

So, what do you seriously suggest?

Cut out the world wide bogus VE testing. If you are U.S. military or
U.S. civilian overseas, you go to the U.S. Embassy or a U.S. military
base and take the test. And you prove to the people administering the
test that the address you put on the 610 form is REALLY where you
live, and not a P.O. Box at Mailboxes Plus that you and your buddies
chipped in to pay for, or the P.O. Box number of the Guam QSL bureau.

I don't really think anyone cares if someone in Japan can get a call
that belongs to the mainland US.

I think if you did a poll of U.S. hams, you'd find that thinking is
way out in left field.

Maybe it'll help you see the big picture if we sum it up one more
time:

If you are a ham from ANY country and you LIVE in the U.S., and you
can't operate in the U.S. under CEPT agreements, then by all means you
should be allowed to take the test (in the U.S.) and get a U.S.
license.

BUT - If you're a ham that lives in the Philippines, and you think it
would be neato keen kool as a moose to have a U.S. license just for
the hell of it, you should NOT be allowed to get one - and most
certainly not when the test is given by three other Filipino hams who
have never been to the U.S. but somehow managed to get U.S. licenses
and sign up with W5YI.

Wouldn't it have been nice if all the final exams we took in school
were administered by our classmates at the bowling alley on Saturday
night with no teachers around to watch? I bet if we used that system,
it wouldn't have taken me eight years to finish high school.....

AND - If you are a Japanese ham that lives in Japan, and you think
that it would be kewl to have a U.S. license so that when you go to
VP9 for vacation you can pretend you're from the U.S. so you're
allowed to operate in VP9, or because a U.S. call would look kewl on
your QSL card, you should NOT be allowed to get one.

Nobody has a problem with hams that are REALLY in the U.S. getting a
license, no matter where they were born and raised. It's not a
citizenship thing. Nobody has a problem with you getting a license in
the U.S. even though you don't really need one, because you ARE in the
U.S.

The problem is with hams who have NEVER been in the U.S., or never
intend to BE in the U.S. getting licenses they don't really need or
ever intend to use in the U.S. OR that they intend to use as an
International Radio Passport.

Example: All the KH0/KH2/KH7/Wxxx calls issued to JA's. Some of them
operate in Guam or Saipan, once, or once in a while. Many don't ever
operate there. Now that the CEPT agreement covers Japan, they don't
NEED a U.S. license so it's a waste of resources and call signs to
issue them one and it allows them to falsely present themselves as
U.S. hams in other countries to obtain reciprocal operating privledges
that they couldn't get with a Japanese license. Before CEPT if they
wanted to operate in Guam, they had to get a U.S. license or a
reciprocal license. Those days are over.

Why shouldn't 3 JA's be allowed to test me for a U.S. ham license in
Japan? The same reason I can't take a test for a Florida drivers
license in Japan at the Tokyo Motor Vehicle Department. Because it
makes no damn sense.

73, Jim KH2D

wrote in
:

On 26 Nov 2004 04:22:50 GMT, Alun wrote:

However, anyone who has a licence from a country that has an ordinary
bilateral reciprocal agrrement with the US can operate in the US even
as a permanent resident for an indefinite period of time.

An excellent reason to never issue a U.S. call sign to a Japanese ham.
There is no circumstance where they'd NEED a U.S. license, because
they can operate in the U.S. or in any U.S. territory with their
Japanese license. Throw stroke whatever on the end of their JA call
and they're good to go. No paperwork required, no resources wasted.

So maybe you'd like to ban VE tests held outside the US? That would be
hard on your military. How do you get licenced if you are posted
somewhere that you don't speak the language?

No, I wouldn't. You go to the U.S. Embassy or a U.S. military base and
take the test. Think about this - How do you pass a test in Japan
that's in English if you don't speak English? Remember that song from
the 70's? With a little help from your friends?

Another suggestion I saw in this thread was to stop aliens from being
VEs. I don't think that would fly constitutionally speaking either.

You're missing the whole point, Alun. The U.S. Constitution does NOT
apply to Japanese nationals who live in Japan. You live in the U.S.
You're a VE, and help other VE's in the U.S. give tests. That's
wonderful, and the fact that you're not a U.S. citizen doesn't bother
me a bit. I'm not a lawyer, so I'm not sure you have any
constitutional rights in the U.S. or that you were allowed to vote in
the presidential election, but that's not the point here.


I am not a lawyer either, but FWIW resident aliens do have constitutional
rights under the due process clause of the 5th amendment and under the
equal protection clause of the 14th amendment, although the latter only
applies to the states and not the feds.

You're right about aliens overseas not having constitutuonal rights,
though.

As for voting, there's nothing in the constiution to say that aliens can't
vote. As we all know from the last two elections, voting is administered at
the state and local level, not by the feds. Here in Maryland, aliens can
vote in city elections in Takoma Park, but that isn't where I live. I
understand that as recently as the 19th century many states did allow
aliens to vote, which may have made sense when everyone was an immigrant.

Come to think of it, as equal protection under state law does apply to
aliens, how long will it be before someone tries to file suit to get voting
rights for aliens, maybe even illegal aliens?

If three Filipino's give a VE test for licenses in the Philippines,
that bothers me. If three Japanese hams give a VE test for U.S.
licenses in Tokyo, that bothers me. And I'm sure it would bother a lot
of other hams in the U.S.

So, what do you seriously suggest?

Cut out the world wide bogus VE testing. If you are U.S. military or
U.S. civilian overseas, you go to the U.S. Embassy or a U.S. military
base and take the test. And you prove to the people administering the
test that the address you put on the 610 form is REALLY where you
live, and not a P.O. Box at Mailboxes Plus that you and your buddies
chipped in to pay for, or the P.O. Box number of the Guam QSL bureau.

I don't really think anyone cares if someone in Japan can get a call
that belongs to the mainland US.

I think if you did a poll of U.S. hams, you'd find that thinking is
way out in left field.

Maybe it'll help you see the big picture if we sum it up one more
time:

If you are a ham from ANY country and you LIVE in the U.S., and you
can't operate in the U.S. under CEPT agreements, then by all means you
should be allowed to take the test (in the U.S.) and get a U.S.
license.

BUT - If you're a ham that lives in the Philippines, and you think it
would be neato keen kool as a moose to have a U.S. license just for
the hell of it, you should NOT be allowed to get one - and most
certainly not when the test is given by three other Filipino hams who
have never been to the U.S. but somehow managed to get U.S. licenses
and sign up with W5YI.

Wouldn't it have been nice if all the final exams we took in school
were administered by our classmates at the bowling alley on Saturday
night with no teachers around to watch? I bet if we used that system,
it wouldn't have taken me eight years to finish high school.....

AND - If you are a Japanese ham that lives in Japan, and you think
that it would be kewl to have a U.S. license so that when you go to
VP9 for vacation you can pretend you're from the U.S. so you're
allowed to operate in VP9, or because a U.S. call would look kewl on
your QSL card, you should NOT be allowed to get one.

Nobody has a problem with hams that are REALLY in the U.S. getting a
license, no matter where they were born and raised. It's not a
citizenship thing. Nobody has a problem with you getting a license in
the U.S. even though you don't really need one, because you ARE in the
U.S.

The problem is with hams who have NEVER been in the U.S., or never
intend to BE in the U.S. getting licenses they don't really need or
ever intend to use in the U.S. OR that they intend to use as an
International Radio Passport.

Example: All the KH0/KH2/KH7/Wxxx calls issued to JA's. Some of them
operate in Guam or Saipan, once, or once in a while. Many don't ever
operate there. Now that the CEPT agreement covers Japan, they don't
NEED a U.S. license so it's a waste of resources and call signs to
issue them one and it allows them to falsely present themselves as
U.S. hams in other countries to obtain reciprocal operating privledges
that they couldn't get with a Japanese license. Before CEPT if they
wanted to operate in Guam, they had to get a U.S. license or a
reciprocal license. Those days are over.

Why shouldn't 3 JA's be allowed to test me for a U.S. ham license in
Japan? The same reason I can't take a test for a Florida drivers
license in Japan at the Tokyo Motor Vehicle Department. Because it
makes no damn sense.

73, Jim KH2D