On 9/7/2013 3:51 PM, Reader wrote:
On 9/5/2013 6:08 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/5/2013 1:47 PM, Michael Black wrote:
On Thu, 5 Sep 2013, rickman wrote:


It seems very restrictive that anyone can use a marine VHF radio on
their boat, but if they want to speak with someone on shore that is
not allowed except for special cases like drawbridge operators. I can
understand that marine radios are not for shore to shore
communications, but it only seems natural to use the same radio for
ship to ship and ship to shore comms.

The magic reasoning is that if you're on a boat or ship, then you are on
the water, and the marine band would then apply. You may need it for
emergency, or talking to other boats. I'm sure you used to have to be
licensed in order to have a Marine band license, so things have changed.
Indeed, it was only about the late sixties that the VHF Marine band came
into existence, before that you had to use the 2 to 3MHz Marine band,
with much longer antennas and I think more serious licensing
requirements. The VHF Marine band gave a lot more boaters the use of
radio, and some of that was because in putting the band at higher
frequencies, the range was limited, so more people could make use of the
allocation. And about that time, the equipment on the HF marine band got
fancier and more expensive, precisely to make better use of that
allocation.

But, if anyone could get a marine band radio and use it from shore,
what's to keep them from just using it as a general radio band? The
allocation is for marine use, yet if anyone could use a radio for the
band from shore, then they might use it for any purpose.

That's the difference, it's now easy to use the radio from a boat, where
the band is intended for, and difficult to use from shore since you need
to justify that you actually will be using it for ship to shore use.

Faulty reasoning. I can use the marine band radio from shore now. The
only thing stopping me is the law. Last year I was told it was ok to
use it from shore if I was communicating with a boat (which makes
perfect sense), now I find that is *not* the case. During our trip I
heard any number of conversations between boats and what appeared to be
their homes. There was no congestion, no interference of the airways,
just ship to shore communications when useful.


There is every need for a boat to have a radio, no need for everyone on
shore to have a radio, so the licensing is restrictive. Likely not as
restrictive as you perceive it, but still there to weed out the people
who might wish to use it for other things.

The utility of a radio, especially in emergency situations, is greatly
diminished if you can't reach people on the shore. My understanding is
that the range of these radios is *very* short if you are close to the
water. There were kayaks less than 4 miles away who I could not raise
on the radio and I was likely the closest point of assistance. If they
had needed to call for help, who exactly would they be able to reach?

In the sea kayaking community VHF radio is both regarded as an important
safety device because of the importance of communications and as a joke
because of how often it communicates with no out outside of your paddle
group. I don't think it is unreasonable for shore stations to be able
to monitor VHF and respond in an emergency situation or to prevent one.
In the situation at Lake Anna, if I am not allowed to have a VHF
license for my shore station, then what is the use of having a VHF radio
in a boat?



As someone mentioned earlier, the law was made to insure profits for the
corporations that built shore stations that were hooked up to the
telephone lines. This law of course is still in place. There is no more
profit for the corporations, but the law remains on the books.

I personally find much of the FCC rules and regulations to be simply a
means to insure profits for business. A perfect example is the law that
makes it almost impossible for a private person to put in their own low
power radio station to cover their town. In the rural area where I live
there is mostly dead air. I am retired and I would love to put in my own
station to broadcast music and local news.

Interesting. I considered that once myself. But the FCC has to license
you and they aren't accepting any new applications for license. They
don't say when they *will* be accepting new licenses either. Amazing!


That is one of the very serious problems with our form of democracy in
the USA. Most of the laws are actually written by companies or
corporations who bribe politicians to enact the laws they want. This
form of bribery has been found legal by the supreme court. However, if
you attempt to bribe your way out of a speeding ticket, you will most
likely suffer the full force of the law. Politicians get a special card
to allow almost any form of corruption.

If you go ahead and use the marine band as you would like to do, you may
or may not get away with it. If you do not use it a lot, you probably
will not get in trouble. I find absolutely no moral turpitude in your
plan to use that frequency as a kayak to shore communication. Legal and
moral are often 180 degrees apart in the USA.

I fully plan to apply for a license.

Thanks for the support.

--

Rick

On 9/7/2013 4:44 PM, Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , rickman writes




It seems very restrictive that anyone can use a marine VHF radio on
their boat, but if they want to speak with someone on shore that is
not allowed except for special cases like drawbridge operators. I can
understand that marine radios are not for shore to shore
communications, but it only seems natural to use the same radio for
ship to ship and ship to shore comms.

Although I've been a licensed radio amateur for over 50 years, I haven't
really got a clue about using the marine VHF radio band, and the
regulations appertaining to it.

However, Wikipedia indicates that "It is used for a wide variety of
purposes, including summoning rescue services and communicating with
harbours, locks, bridges and marinas".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_VHF_radio

The question therefore is essentially whether the land side of the
two-way communication could also include things like the support teams
for water-based events. I would have thought it would be standard
practice for them to have two-way marine-band communications equipment
for this purpose, and if so, it could be argued that the OP falls into
this (presumably) permitted category. If they don't use the normal VHF
marine band, what frequencies (and equipment) do they use? The obvious
course of action would be to get the FCC to advise on the matter.

I will be working on this in the coming week. Thanks for your comments.

--

Rick

On Sat, 07 Sep 2013 17:03:14 -0400, rickman wrote:

On 9/7/2013 4:44 PM, Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , rickman writes




It seems very restrictive that anyone can use a marine VHF radio on
their boat, but if they want to speak with someone on shore that is
not allowed except for special cases like drawbridge operators. I can
understand that marine radios are not for shore to shore
communications, but it only seems natural to use the same radio for
ship to ship and ship to shore comms.

Although I've been a licensed radio amateur for over 50 years, I haven't
really got a clue about using the marine VHF radio band, and the
regulations appertaining to it.

However, Wikipedia indicates that "It is used for a wide variety of
purposes, including summoning rescue services and communicating with
harbours, locks, bridges and marinas".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_VHF_radio

The question therefore is essentially whether the land side of the
two-way communication could also include things like the support teams
for water-based events. I would have thought it would be standard
practice for them to have two-way marine-band communications equipment
for this purpose, and if so, it could be argued that the OP falls into
this (presumably) permitted category. If they don't use the normal VHF
marine band, what frequencies (and equipment) do they use? The obvious
course of action would be to get the FCC to advise on the matter.

I will be working on this in the coming week. Thanks for your comments.
"in Canada" non commercial vessels do not need a radio licence, but
operators require an operator's certificate..

On 9/7/2013 6:47 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 07 Sep 2013 17:03:14 -0400, wrote:

On 9/7/2013 4:44 PM, Ian Jackson wrote:
In , writes




It seems very restrictive that anyone can use a marine VHF radio on
their boat, but if they want to speak with someone on shore that is
not allowed except for special cases like drawbridge operators. I can
understand that marine radios are not for shore to shore
communications, but it only seems natural to use the same radio for
ship to ship and ship to shore comms.

Although I've been a licensed radio amateur for over 50 years, I haven't
really got a clue about using the marine VHF radio band, and the
regulations appertaining to it.

However, Wikipedia indicates that "It is used for a wide variety of
purposes, including summoning rescue services and communicating with
harbours, locks, bridges and marinas".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_VHF_radio

The question therefore is essentially whether the land side of the
two-way communication could also include things like the support teams
for water-based events. I would have thought it would be standard
practice for them to have two-way marine-band communications equipment
for this purpose, and if so, it could be argued that the OP falls into
this (presumably) permitted category. If they don't use the normal VHF
marine band, what frequencies (and equipment) do they use? The obvious
course of action would be to get the FCC to advise on the matter.

I will be working on this in the coming week. Thanks for your comments.
"in Canada" non commercial vessels do not need a radio licence, but
operators require an operator's certificate..

Yeah, I read on the FCC site that I am ok as long as I am in US waters
or *not* communicating with a foreign station. Something like that. I
don't expect to have any issues related to this though. It gets pretty
cold up there near Canada and the water is even colder.

--

Rick

On 9/7/2013 4:03 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/7/2013 4:44 PM, Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , rickman
writes




It seems very restrictive that anyone can use a marine VHF radio on
their boat, but if they want to speak with someone on shore that is
not allowed except for special cases like drawbridge operators. I can
understand that marine radios are not for shore to shore
communications, but it only seems natural to use the same radio for
ship to ship and ship to shore comms.

Although I've been a licensed radio amateur for over 50 years, I haven't
really got a clue about using the marine VHF radio band, and the
regulations appertaining to it.

However, Wikipedia indicates that "It is used for a wide variety of
purposes, including summoning rescue services and communicating with
harbours, locks, bridges and marinas".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_VHF_radio

The question therefore is essentially whether the land side of the
two-way communication could also include things like the support teams
for water-based events. I would have thought it would be standard
practice for them to have two-way marine-band communications equipment
for this purpose, and if so, it could be argued that the OP falls into
this (presumably) permitted category. If they don't use the normal VHF
marine band, what frequencies (and equipment) do they use? The obvious
course of action would be to get the FCC to advise on the matter.

I will be working on this in the coming week. Thanks for your comments.



As someone mentioned earlier, the law was made to insure profits for the
corporations that built shore stations that were hooked up to the
telephone lines. This law of course is still in place. There is no more
profit for the corporations, but the law remains on the books.

I personally find much of the FCC rules and regulations to be simply a
means to insure profits for business. A perfect example is the law that
makes it almost impossible for a private person to put in their own low
power radio station to cover their town. In the rural area where I live
there is mostly dead air. I am retired and I would love to put in my own
station to broadcast music and local news.

That is one of the very serious problems with our form of democracy in
the USA. Most of the laws are actually written by companies or
corporations who bribe politicians to enact the laws they want. This
form of bribery has been found legal by the supreme court. However, if
you attempt to bribe your way out of a speeding ticket, you will most
likely suffer the full force of the law. Politicians get a special card
to allow almost any form of corruption.

If you go ahead and use the marine band as you would like to do, you may
or may not get away with it. If you do not use it a lot, you probably
will not get in trouble. I find absolutely no moral turpitude in your
plan to use that frequency as a kayak to shore communication. Legal and
moral are often 180 degrees apart in the USA.

Of course there are some who believe that any statute on the books comes
directly from God.

Michael

On Sat, 07 Sep 2013 19:10:14 -0400, rickman wrote:

On 9/7/2013 6:47 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 07 Sep 2013 17:03:14 -0400, wrote:

On 9/7/2013 4:44 PM, Ian Jackson wrote:
In , writes




It seems very restrictive that anyone can use a marine VHF radio on
their boat, but if they want to speak with someone on shore that is
not allowed except for special cases like drawbridge operators. I can
understand that marine radios are not for shore to shore
communications, but it only seems natural to use the same radio for
ship to ship and ship to shore comms.

Although I've been a licensed radio amateur for over 50 years, I haven't
really got a clue about using the marine VHF radio band, and the
regulations appertaining to it.

However, Wikipedia indicates that "It is used for a wide variety of
purposes, including summoning rescue services and communicating with
harbours, locks, bridges and marinas".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_VHF_radio

The question therefore is essentially whether the land side of the
two-way communication could also include things like the support teams
for water-based events. I would have thought it would be standard
practice for them to have two-way marine-band communications equipment
for this purpose, and if so, it could be argued that the OP falls into
this (presumably) permitted category. If they don't use the normal VHF
marine band, what frequencies (and equipment) do they use? The obvious
course of action would be to get the FCC to advise on the matter.

I will be working on this in the coming week. Thanks for your comments.
"in Canada" non commercial vessels do not need a radio licence, but
operators require an operator's certificate..

Yeah, I read on the FCC site that I am ok as long as I am in US waters
or *not* communicating with a foreign station. Something like that. I
don't expect to have any issues related to this though. It gets pretty
cold up there near Canada and the water is even colder.
You DO realize that most Canadians live south of Duluth? Kitchener
is just north of the northern border of California - Great beaches on
Georgian bay and Lake Erie.. Great warm water canoeing and kayaking on
the Grand River.

On 9/7/2013 4:44 PM, Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , rickman writes




It seems very restrictive that anyone can use a marine VHF radio on
their boat, but if they want to speak with someone on shore that is
not allowed except for special cases like drawbridge operators. I can
understand that marine radios are not for shore to shore
communications, but it only seems natural to use the same radio for
ship to ship and ship to shore comms.

Although I've been a licensed radio amateur for over 50 years, I haven't
really got a clue about using the marine VHF radio band, and the
regulations appertaining to it.

However, Wikipedia indicates that "It is used for a wide variety of
purposes, including summoning rescue services and communicating with
harbours, locks, bridges and marinas".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_VHF_radio


Ian, you should be reading the regs at www.fcc.gov, not trusting Wikipedia.

The question therefore is essentially whether the land side of the
two-way communication could also include things like the support teams
for water-based events. I would have thought it would be standard
practice for them to have two-way marine-band communications equipment
for this purpose, and if so, it could be argued that the OP falls into
this (presumably) permitted category. If they don't use the normal VHF
marine band, what frequencies (and equipment) do they use? The obvious
course of action would be to get the FCC to advise on the matter.

Not according to the FCC regs. See the references earlier in this
thread for requirements for a land marine station. There is no
"standard practice" for licensing people for this purpose. There are
only *very* limited options available.

And if there were an "official" event, large enough and sponsored by
someone, I am sure there would be marinas, etc., and the Coast Guard
(or, on lakes, Coast Guard Auxiliary) monitoring the radios.

And the op has repeatedly been advised to contact the FCC.



--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.

==================

On 9/7/2013 7:50 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 07 Sep 2013 19:10:14 -0400, wrote:

On 9/7/2013 6:47 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 07 Sep 2013 17:03:14 -0400, wrote:

On 9/7/2013 4:44 PM, Ian Jackson wrote:
In , writes




It seems very restrictive that anyone can use a marine VHF radio on
their boat, but if they want to speak with someone on shore that is
not allowed except for special cases like drawbridge operators. I can
understand that marine radios are not for shore to shore
communications, but it only seems natural to use the same radio for
ship to ship and ship to shore comms.

Although I've been a licensed radio amateur for over 50 years, I haven't
really got a clue about using the marine VHF radio band, and the
regulations appertaining to it.

However, Wikipedia indicates that "It is used for a wide variety of
purposes, including summoning rescue services and communicating with
harbours, locks, bridges and marinas".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_VHF_radio

The question therefore is essentially whether the land side of the
two-way communication could also include things like the support teams
for water-based events. I would have thought it would be standard
practice for them to have two-way marine-band communications equipment
for this purpose, and if so, it could be argued that the OP falls into
this (presumably) permitted category. If they don't use the normal VHF
marine band, what frequencies (and equipment) do they use? The obvious
course of action would be to get the FCC to advise on the matter.

I will be working on this in the coming week. Thanks for your comments.
"in Canada" non commercial vessels do not need a radio licence, but
operators require an operator's certificate..

Yeah, I read on the FCC site that I am ok as long as I am in US waters
or *not* communicating with a foreign station. Something like that. I
don't expect to have any issues related to this though. It gets pretty
cold up there near Canada and the water is even colder.
You DO realize that most Canadians live south of Duluth? Kitchener
is just north of the northern border of California - Great beaches on
Georgian bay and Lake Erie.. Great warm water canoeing and kayaking on
the Grand River.

The Great Lakes are a well known death trap for the unprepared kayaker.
Check out some of the accident analyses on the cold water safety web
site...

http://www.coldwatersafety.org/

As for Grand River, here is a table of water temps. Seems Grand River,
on the average, is only has a safe temperature for two months out of the
year, July 10 to Sept 10.

If I were to be kayaking near Canada it would be more likely East Coast
and that is ocean and even worse. That's all I meant.

BTW, being south of Duluth is no indication that the water is safe...
Check out this case study that happened right here in Virginia...

http://www.coldwatersafety.org/Rule2.html#rule2Case7

If you can't use the above link go to the cold water web site and click
through to Golden Rule 2, case 7. When you read many of these reports
it gets to you after a while.

Many of these accidents could have been prevented if the kayakers had
used a marine band VHF or other radio to contact help. That is one of
the reasons why I want to get a marine radio here.

--

Rick

On 9/8/2013 9:48 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 08 Sep 2013 00:07:21 -0400, wrote:

On 9/7/2013 7:50 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 07 Sep 2013 19:10:14 -0400, wrote:

On 9/7/2013 6:47 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 07 Sep 2013 17:03:14 -0400, wrote:

On 9/7/2013 4:44 PM, Ian Jackson wrote:
In , writes




It seems very restrictive that anyone can use a marine VHF radio on
their boat, but if they want to speak with someone on shore that is
not allowed except for special cases like drawbridge operators. I can
understand that marine radios are not for shore to shore
communications, but it only seems natural to use the same radio for
ship to ship and ship to shore comms.

Although I've been a licensed radio amateur for over 50 years, I haven't
really got a clue about using the marine VHF radio band, and the
regulations appertaining to it.

However, Wikipedia indicates that "It is used for a wide variety of
purposes, including summoning rescue services and communicating with
harbours, locks, bridges and marinas".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_VHF_radio

The question therefore is essentially whether the land side of the
two-way communication could also include things like the support teams
for water-based events. I would have thought it would be standard
practice for them to have two-way marine-band communications equipment
for this purpose, and if so, it could be argued that the OP falls into
this (presumably) permitted category. If they don't use the normal VHF
marine band, what frequencies (and equipment) do they use? The obvious
course of action would be to get the FCC to advise on the matter.

I will be working on this in the coming week. Thanks for your comments.
"in Canada" non commercial vessels do not need a radio licence, but
operators require an operator's certificate..

Yeah, I read on the FCC site that I am ok as long as I am in US waters
or *not* communicating with a foreign station. Something like that. I
don't expect to have any issues related to this though. It gets pretty
cold up there near Canada and the water is even colder.
You DO realize that most Canadians live south of Duluth? Kitchener
is just north of the northern border of California - Great beaches on
Georgian bay and Lake Erie.. Great warm water canoeing and kayaking on
the Grand River.

The Great Lakes are a well known death trap for the unprepared kayaker.
Check out some of the accident analyses on the cold water safety web
site...

http://www.coldwatersafety.org/

As for Grand River, here is a table of water temps. Seems Grand River,
on the average, is only has a safe temperature for two months out of the
year, July 10 to Sept 10.

The grand on an AVERAGE year is safe as far as temps go from late june
to early October - and the water is generally (relatively) shallow and
slow moving through most of the watershed. This summer has been an
exception - running full almost all summer. THOUSANDS of canoeists
and kayakers all summer in the Kitchener and Cayuga areas in
particular.

The numbers I read *were* average numbers. What do you consider "safe"
water temps?


If I were to be kayaking near Canada it would be more likely East Coast
and that is ocean and even worse. That's all I meant.

BTW, being south of Duluth is no indication that the water is safe...
Check out this case study that happened right here in Virginia...

http://www.coldwatersafety.org/Rule2.html#rule2Case7

If you can't use the above link go to the cold water web site and click
through to Golden Rule 2, case 7. When you read many of these reports
it gets to you after a while.

Many of these accidents could have been prevented if the kayakers had
used a marine band VHF or other radio to contact help. That is one of
the reasons why I want to get a marine radio here.

Did you do any reading of the cold water safety site I mentioned. Most
people don't realize the danger of cold water or just how cold it needs
to be to be dangerous.

--

Rick

On Sun, 08 Sep 2013 00:07:21 -0400, rickman wrote:

On 9/7/2013 7:50 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 07 Sep 2013 19:10:14 -0400, wrote:

On 9/7/2013 6:47 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 07 Sep 2013 17:03:14 -0400, wrote:

On 9/7/2013 4:44 PM, Ian Jackson wrote:
In , writes




It seems very restrictive that anyone can use a marine VHF radio on
their boat, but if they want to speak with someone on shore that is
not allowed except for special cases like drawbridge operators. I can
understand that marine radios are not for shore to shore
communications, but it only seems natural to use the same radio for
ship to ship and ship to shore comms.

Although I've been a licensed radio amateur for over 50 years, I haven't
really got a clue about using the marine VHF radio band, and the
regulations appertaining to it.

However, Wikipedia indicates that "It is used for a wide variety of
purposes, including summoning rescue services and communicating with
harbours, locks, bridges and marinas".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_VHF_radio

The question therefore is essentially whether the land side of the
two-way communication could also include things like the support teams
for water-based events. I would have thought it would be standard
practice for them to have two-way marine-band communications equipment
for this purpose, and if so, it could be argued that the OP falls into
this (presumably) permitted category. If they don't use the normal VHF
marine band, what frequencies (and equipment) do they use? The obvious
course of action would be to get the FCC to advise on the matter.

I will be working on this in the coming week. Thanks for your comments.
"in Canada" non commercial vessels do not need a radio licence, but
operators require an operator's certificate..

Yeah, I read on the FCC site that I am ok as long as I am in US waters
or *not* communicating with a foreign station. Something like that. I
don't expect to have any issues related to this though. It gets pretty
cold up there near Canada and the water is even colder.
You DO realize that most Canadians live south of Duluth? Kitchener
is just north of the northern border of California - Great beaches on
Georgian bay and Lake Erie.. Great warm water canoeing and kayaking on
the Grand River.

The Great Lakes are a well known death trap for the unprepared kayaker.
Check out some of the accident analyses on the cold water safety web
site...

http://www.coldwatersafety.org/

As for Grand River, here is a table of water temps. Seems Grand River,
on the average, is only has a safe temperature for two months out of the
year, July 10 to Sept 10.

The grand on an AVERAGE year is safe as far as temps go from late june
to early October - and the water is generally (relatively) shallow and
slow moving through most of the watershed. This summer has been an
exception - running full almost all summer. THOUSANDS of canoeists
and kayakers all summer in the Kitchener and Cayuga areas in
particular.

If I were to be kayaking near Canada it would be more likely East Coast
and that is ocean and even worse. That's all I meant.

BTW, being south of Duluth is no indication that the water is safe...
Check out this case study that happened right here in Virginia...

http://www.coldwatersafety.org/Rule2.html#rule2Case7

If you can't use the above link go to the cold water web site and click
through to Golden Rule 2, case 7. When you read many of these reports
it gets to you after a while.

Many of these accidents could have been prevented if the kayakers had
used a marine band VHF or other radio to contact help. That is one of
the reasons why I want to get a marine radio here.