rickman wrote:
Yes, I am in the US. The radio will be used to support marine
communications which is legal by my understanding.

Not unless you have a license. Otherwise you risk a $10,000 fine.

http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/ind...ship_stations#
Using Hand-Held Marine VHF Radios on Land

Geoff.


--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379

rickman wrote:

Where is the violation? As long as the trucks are only transmitting to
the ships, isn't that ok? Just having them shouldn't be a problem. The
issue is how you use them, no?


No. It is NOT OK.

http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/ind...stations#Using Hand-Held Marine VHF Radios on Land

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379

In article ,
"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" writes:
rickman wrote:
Yes, I am in the US. The radio will be used to support marine
communications which is legal by my understanding.

Not unless you have a license. Otherwise you risk a $10,000 fine.

http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/ind...ship_stations#
Using Hand-Held Marine VHF Radios on Land


Am I the only one who doesn't think a kayak on the Chesapeake would
be considered "a ship" and that none of this is relevant to what
he wants to do? Seems like a task for GMRS to me.

bill

--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
| and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include std.disclaimer.h

On 9/3/2013 12:47 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/2/2013 1:11 AM, Fred McKenzie wrote:
In ,
wrote:

I doubt I'll be mounting this in a boat although that is a possibility
someday, I do have a ski boat. But more likely is that I'll mount it at
my house on a lake to provide some amount of emergency monitoring. So I
expect to mount it in the pickup so it can be easily removed and brought
into the house. I guess that means a second antenna too.

Rick-

I am assuming you can manage the legal requirements for use of the
radio. As others mentioned, a license may be needed.

One question you must address, is what kind of range do you need to
cover? VHF radios are essentially line-of-sight. Due to the curvature
of the earth, the "radio horizon" will limit your range.

You can estimate the distance in miles to the radio horizon, as the
square root of twice the altitude of your antenna in feet. For example,
the antenna on the roof of your truck will be approximately five feet
off the ground. The square root of ten is about 3.2, so your horizon on
level ground will be about 3 miles away.

You can add the distance to the kayak's horizon to yours. So it would
matter if the kayak is on a mountainous stream or on the open ocean or
lake.

If vehicle mounting does not provide the range you need, a tall antenna
may be required at the house. (Have you considered using cell phones?)

Hi Fred, I appreciate the response.

I'm not sure there is a lot of value to calculating the line of sight
for the antenna mount. I don't have much choice in the mount other than
having to make it lower because of some practical consideration like
hitting bridges... As to need, I want the max I can get of course. The
other end of the link will all be handheld radios.

The kayaks will be on the Chesapeake Bay, but close to shore. So land
obstructions will be the limiting factor most of the time. At least it
seemed that way on prior trips. But I don't have a lot of experience
with the hand held units we used so I'm not sure what I should have
expected.

The sort of issue I'm more interested in discussing are things like what
type of antenna and how best to mount and connect it to the radio. Of
course, I'm interested in the radios if anyone here has experience with
them. I see 25 Watt (which I'm assuming is the max available) units at
the bottom end for just over $100 and others which seem to be similar in
regards to the specs I understand for over $200 and of course the prices
run upward too. Are there aspects I should look for that I need to dig
deeper into the specs to find? For example is there some spec on the
internals of the receiver that would make a weakly received signal more
clear than another radio? What about the speaker itself? Would it be
better to have an external speaker or is the internal speaker usually ok?

I'm looking for advice from those who are experienced with marine VHF.
Of course, I don't know what I don't know, so I'm looking for help
figuring out the questions.


Rick,

You've answered a couple of questions here. First of all, you are in
the United States, so are governed by the FCC.

Marine radio licenses are not needed for the kayaks while on the river,
but land stations (i.e. your truck) would do.

You could be considered a "Private Coastal Station". You would have to
"provide a service to vessels..." to get this license. I'm not sure if
the FCC would consider talking to your kayaks to be "a service to
vessels" - I guess it could be argued that it is.

Another option would be a "Marine Utility Station" - these restricted to
handhelds with ten watts or less power. You still have to "provide a
service to vessels".

Another option would be the "General Mobile Radio Service". You don't
have to provide a service to vessels with this license, but it is
basically handhelds in the 1-5 watt range (and can have removable
antennas, so you could add an external antenna). You need a license
here, but family members can all operate under the same license
(individual licenses are not required).

Of course, every person operating a radio could get a ham license; you
would be much less restricted in your operation (power, frequencies,
etc.). You just can't use it for business - which it sounds like you
aren't. Each person would have to pass a test (not that hard and many
ham clubs around the country provide testing on a regular basis). Of
course, it gives you a lot of other options, also - like using a
repeater to extend the range of both the kayaks and your truck, assuming
one is available (I don't know what's available around the Chesapeake
River area, but this area is loaded with repeaters).

I hope this helps you with some ideas.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

On 9/3/2013 1:41 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
In article ,
"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" writes:
rickman wrote:
Yes, I am in the US. The radio will be used to support marine
communications which is legal by my understanding.

Not unless you have a license. Otherwise you risk a $10,000 fine.

http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/ind...ship_stations#
Using Hand-Held Marine VHF Radios on Land


Am I the only one who doesn't think a kayak on the Chesapeake would
be considered "a ship" and that none of this is relevant to what
he wants to do? Seems like a task for GMRS to me.

bill


Bill,

I'm not sure about that - it would depend on the FCC's definition of
"ship". Nothing I've seen indicates it has to be a big boat on a
navigable waterway; for instance a 20' fishing boat on a large inland
lake might be considered a "ship".

I agree GMRS is one way to go - but the limited range of such equipment
is what he's trying to solve.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

rickman wrote:
On 9/2/2013 1:03 PM, wrote:
Geoffrey S. wrote:

He said he wanted to monitor on land. Monitoring on land is not restricted.

Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word "monitor". I do expect to
communicate with the kayaks.


There also is a story floating around the internet of a logging company
using marine radios on their boats and trucks being fined by the FCC.

Which is an obvious violation.

Where is the violation? As long as the trucks are only transmitting to
the ships, isn't that ok? Just having them shouldn't be a problem. The
issue is how you use them, no?

It depends.

Each truck has to have a license to transmit, but boats do not. If the
trucks are just monitoring and never transmit, they do not need a license.

Even if the trucks have licenses, the VHF marine band is restricted to
communications related to marine "stuff".

Do something like scheduling trucks would be a business use and would
not be appropriate for the marine band.





--
Jim Pennino

Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
rickman wrote:

Where is the violation? As long as the trucks are only transmitting to
the ships, isn't that ok? Just having them shouldn't be a problem. The
issue is how you use them, no?


No. It is NOT OK.

http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/ind...stations#Using Hand-Held Marine VHF Radios on Land

Geoff.

Note that the question asked was "Just having them".

If the trucks just have them, only monitor, and never transmit, they are
legal.


--
Jim Pennino

What follows is just my own subjective "take" on the issue... please
don't treat it as gospel.

The sort of issue I'm more interested in discussing are things like what
type of antenna and how best to mount and connect it to the radio.

Broadly-speaking, you'll have a choice of antennas which do, or do
not, require a good ground plane to operate (quarter-wave monopoles
being an example of those which do, and end-fed half-wave antennas
being an example of those which do not). A lot of boat-mount marine
VHF antennas seem to be of the ground-independent type - they can be
mounted up alongside the mast, or connected to a fiberglass hull, and
will still work well.

There's a lot to be said for buying a "designed for boat mounting"
antenna even for shore or vehicle mounting... such antennas will
probably be made to withstand salt-spray corrosion, and will live
longer than an "inland" antenna.

For mounting such on a vehicle... plan to mount it up above the
roofline rather than down at the bumper. For hatchbacks, a trunk-lip
mount can work quite well. Mounting to a roof rack is also a
possibility. Depending on the antenna height and vehicle type, it's
also possible to drill a hole in the roof or side, and install a mount
through the hole (maybe not the best idea if you plan to sell the
vehicle anytime soon). If you use a ground-dependent antenna, the
mount will need to be connected directly to the chassis sheet-metal.

Of
course, I'm interested in the radios if anyone here has experience with
them. I see 25 Watt (which I'm assuming is the max available) units at
the bottom end for just over $100 and others which seem to be similar in
regards to the specs I understand for over $200 and of course the prices
run upward too. Are there aspects I should look for that I need to dig
deeper into the specs to find?

Long-term ruggedness and reliability is an important factor in marine
radios, and it's probably one that you're going to find in the specs.
Reading on-line and magazine reviews, and talking to dealers (and
users) about problems, and the return rate, is probably a good idea.

Standard Horizon, and Icom, seem to be two of the big-name players in
the "commercial grade" marine radio business.

As to specs... one thing to look for is receiver selectivity. In a
"crowded" RF environment (such as the Chesapeake bay and its shores)
there's going to be a very great deal of transmission going on around
you, including full-power (25-watt) transmissions from shore stations
and boats. A strong signal on one channel can saturate a radio's
receiver, and block out weaker signals on other channels
("desensitization"). The better the strong-signal handling (dynamic
range) and adjacent-channel selectivity a radio has, the better it
will be able to receive distant signals in the face of a strong local
transmission.

Some of the higher-end marine mobile radios have a "dual operating
position" feature. You can connect a second microphone (often with
its own built-in controls and display) located well away from the main
radio, and operate the radio from the second location. This can be a
useful feature both on boats (e.g. put the second station up on a
conning tower) and in shore installations.

I haven't seen any marine mobile radios which have detachable
faceplates (i.e. intended for remote mounting).

For example is there some spec on the
internals of the receiver that would make a weakly received signal more
clear than another radio?

Sensitivity, and selectivity are what you're looking for. The
sensitivity number will tend to dominate the performance under true
weak-signal conditions - that is, when there are no strong
transmissions on other channels in your neighborhood. The selectivity
number becomes important when there are other radios transmitting
nearby.

What about the speaker itself? Would it be
better to have an external speaker or is the internal speaker usually ok?

Depends on the radio. Some radios have good internal
speakers... although I suspect this is not terribly easy to achieve if
the radio has to be water-resistant... and some are just terrible.
The more compact the radio, the worse its internal speaker is likely
to sound (I think).

I'd be surprised if most mobile-type marine radios can't hook up to
external speakers, so you can always add one on if the built-in
speaker is not adequate for your needs. Bi-amping and subwoofers are
optional :-)

Other issues:

- Do make sure you buy a radio which has been fully certificated
for operation under FCC Part 80 regulations. Buying radios
intended for other services (land mobile, amateur, etc.) and
reprogramming them for the maritime channels is *not* a good
idea... it's legal to do so, but *not* legal to transmit with such
radios. Big fines are possible if you're caught.

- On the (somewhat noisy) issue of licensing... as I understand it,
you will not need any license at all if all you are going to do is
"monitor" (receive only)... at least, that's true around the
Chesapeake, which is entirely US territory and subject to US
regulations. The moment you transmit, though, the rules are
different. Since you're talking about a shore/vehicle station,
you'd have to have a "private coast" or "marine utility" station
license, and these are only available to a limited category of
people: see 47 CFR 80.501(a) for a list of qualifying categories.
Possibly (a)(8) would apply in your situation: "a person servicing
or supplying vessels other than commercial transport vessels"?

On 9/3/2013 2:07 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/3/2013 12:47 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/2/2013 1:11 AM, Fred McKenzie wrote:
In ,
wrote:

I doubt I'll be mounting this in a boat although that is a possibility
someday, I do have a ski boat. But more likely is that I'll mount it at
my house on a lake to provide some amount of emergency monitoring. So I
expect to mount it in the pickup so it can be easily removed and
brought
into the house. I guess that means a second antenna too.

Rick-

I am assuming you can manage the legal requirements for use of the
radio. As others mentioned, a license may be needed.

One question you must address, is what kind of range do you need to
cover? VHF radios are essentially line-of-sight. Due to the curvature
of the earth, the "radio horizon" will limit your range.

You can estimate the distance in miles to the radio horizon, as the
square root of twice the altitude of your antenna in feet. For example,
the antenna on the roof of your truck will be approximately five feet
off the ground. The square root of ten is about 3.2, so your horizon on
level ground will be about 3 miles away.

You can add the distance to the kayak's horizon to yours. So it would
matter if the kayak is on a mountainous stream or on the open ocean or
lake.

If vehicle mounting does not provide the range you need, a tall antenna
may be required at the house. (Have you considered using cell phones?)
ccc
Hi Fred, I appreciate the response.

I'm not sure there is a lot of value to calculating the line of sight
for the antenna mount. I don't have much choice in the mount other than
having to make it lower because of some practical consideration like
hitting bridges... As to need, I want the max I can get of course. The
other end of the link will all be handheld radios.

The kayaks will be on the Chesapeake Bay, but close to shore. So land
obstructions will be the limiting factor most of the time. At least it
seemed that way on prior trips. But I don't have a lot of experience
with the hand held units we used so I'm not sure what I should have
expected.

The sort of issue I'm more interested in discussing are things like what
type of antenna and how best to mount and connect it to the radio. Of
course, I'm interested in the radios if anyone here has experience with
them. I see 25 Watt (which I'm assuming is the max available) units at
the bottom end for just over $100 and others which seem to be similar in
regards to the specs I understand for over $200 and of course the prices
run upward too. Are there aspects I should look for that I need to dig
deeper into the specs to find? For example is there some spec on the
internals of the receiver that would make a weakly received signal more
clear than another radio? What about the speaker itself? Would it be
better to have an external speaker or is the internal speaker usually ok?

I'm looking for advice from those who are experienced with marine VHF.
Of course, I don't know what I don't know, so I'm looking for help
figuring out the questions.


Rick,

You've answered a couple of questions here. First of all, you are in the
United States, so are governed by the FCC.

Marine radio licenses are not needed for the kayaks while on the river,
but land stations (i.e. your truck) would do.

You could be considered a "Private Coastal Station". You would have to
"provide a service to vessels..." to get this license. I'm not sure if
the FCC would consider talking to your kayaks to be "a service to
vessels" - I guess it could be argued that it is.

Another option would be a "Marine Utility Station" - these restricted to
handhelds with ten watts or less power. You still have to "provide a
service to vessels".

Another option would be the "General Mobile Radio Service". You don't
have to provide a service to vessels with this license, but it is
basically handhelds in the 1-5 watt range (and can have removable
antennas, so you could add an external antenna). You need a license
here, but family members can all operate under the same license
(individual licenses are not required).

Of course, every person operating a radio could get a ham license; you
would be much less restricted in your operation (power, frequencies,
etc.). You just can't use it for business - which it sounds like you
aren't. Each person would have to pass a test (not that hard and many
ham clubs around the country provide testing on a regular basis). Of
course, it gives you a lot of other options, also - like using a
repeater to extend the range of both the kayaks and your truck, assuming
one is available (I don't know what's available around the Chesapeake
River area, but this area is loaded with repeaters).

I hope this helps you with some ideas.

Jerry, yes, this helps a lot. Once I was told I needed the license I
found the FCC site to be less than clear. I appreciate you laying out
the options. I would like to have a more powerful transmitter than the
handhelds have, so I think I will research the Private Coastal Station.
One of the licenses mentioned on the FCC page says you can fill in the
form online and you effectively are licensed as soon as you make the
application. I believe this was the "marine utility station license",
but I can't find that info at the moment.

Does a private costal station have to be stationary? Could I swap the
unit between house and vehicle? Or do I need two licenses?

--

Rick

On 9/3/2013 3:05 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/3/2013 2:07 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/3/2013 12:47 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/2/2013 1:11 AM, Fred McKenzie wrote:
In ,
wrote:

I doubt I'll be mounting this in a boat although that is a possibility
someday, I do have a ski boat. But more likely is that I'll mount
it at
my house on a lake to provide some amount of emergency monitoring.
So I
expect to mount it in the pickup so it can be easily removed and
brought
into the house. I guess that means a second antenna too.

Rick-

I am assuming you can manage the legal requirements for use of the
radio. As others mentioned, a license may be needed.

One question you must address, is what kind of range do you need to
cover? VHF radios are essentially line-of-sight. Due to the curvature
of the earth, the "radio horizon" will limit your range.

You can estimate the distance in miles to the radio horizon, as the
square root of twice the altitude of your antenna in feet. For example,
the antenna on the roof of your truck will be approximately five feet
off the ground. The square root of ten is about 3.2, so your horizon on
level ground will be about 3 miles away.

You can add the distance to the kayak's horizon to yours. So it would
matter if the kayak is on a mountainous stream or on the open ocean or
lake.

If vehicle mounting does not provide the range you need, a tall antenna
may be required at the house. (Have you considered using cell phones?)
ccc
Hi Fred, I appreciate the response.

I'm not sure there is a lot of value to calculating the line of sight
for the antenna mount. I don't have much choice in the mount other than
having to make it lower because of some practical consideration like
hitting bridges... As to need, I want the max I can get of course. The
other end of the link will all be handheld radios.

The kayaks will be on the Chesapeake Bay, but close to shore. So land
obstructions will be the limiting factor most of the time. At least it
seemed that way on prior trips. But I don't have a lot of experience
with the hand held units we used so I'm not sure what I should have
expected.

The sort of issue I'm more interested in discussing are things like what
type of antenna and how best to mount and connect it to the radio. Of
course, I'm interested in the radios if anyone here has experience with
them. I see 25 Watt (which I'm assuming is the max available) units at
the bottom end for just over $100 and others which seem to be similar in
regards to the specs I understand for over $200 and of course the prices
run upward too. Are there aspects I should look for that I need to dig
deeper into the specs to find? For example is there some spec on the
internals of the receiver that would make a weakly received signal more
clear than another radio? What about the speaker itself? Would it be
better to have an external speaker or is the internal speaker usually
ok?

I'm looking for advice from those who are experienced with marine VHF.
Of course, I don't know what I don't know, so I'm looking for help
figuring out the questions.


Rick,

You've answered a couple of questions here. First of all, you are in the
United States, so are governed by the FCC.

Marine radio licenses are not needed for the kayaks while on the river,
but land stations (i.e. your truck) would do.

You could be considered a "Private Coastal Station". You would have to
"provide a service to vessels..." to get this license. I'm not sure if
the FCC would consider talking to your kayaks to be "a service to
vessels" - I guess it could be argued that it is.

Another option would be a "Marine Utility Station" - these restricted to
handhelds with ten watts or less power. You still have to "provide a
service to vessels".

Another option would be the "General Mobile Radio Service". You don't
have to provide a service to vessels with this license, but it is
basically handhelds in the 1-5 watt range (and can have removable
antennas, so you could add an external antenna). You need a license
here, but family members can all operate under the same license
(individual licenses are not required).

Of course, every person operating a radio could get a ham license; you
would be much less restricted in your operation (power, frequencies,
etc.). You just can't use it for business - which it sounds like you
aren't. Each person would have to pass a test (not that hard and many
ham clubs around the country provide testing on a regular basis). Of
course, it gives you a lot of other options, also - like using a
repeater to extend the range of both the kayaks and your truck, assuming
one is available (I don't know what's available around the Chesapeake
River area, but this area is loaded with repeaters).

I hope this helps you with some ideas.

Jerry, yes, this helps a lot. Once I was told I needed the license I
found the FCC site to be less than clear. I appreciate you laying out
the options. I would like to have a more powerful transmitter than the
handhelds have, so I think I will research the Private Coastal Station.
One of the licenses mentioned on the FCC page says you can fill in the
form online and you effectively are licensed as soon as you make the
application. I believe this was the "marine utility station license",
but I can't find that info at the moment.

Does a private costal station have to be stationary? Could I swap the
unit between house and vehicle? Or do I need two licenses?


OK, I did a little more looking into the FCC regs (Part 80 governs
Maritime use). The supplemental restrictions for a Private Coastal
Station are listed at
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx...1.78.1&idno=47.

It looks like you do not meet any of the requirements, so you would not
be eligible for such a license.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.

==================