On Thu, 12 Sep 2013 04:52:44 -0400, rickman wrote:

On 9/11/2013 11:03 AM, Reader wrote:
On 9/11/2013 12:46 AM, rickman wrote:
On 9/9/2013 12:49 PM, Reader wrote:
On 9/7/2013 9:46 AM, rickman wrote:

Thank you for being a rational voice here. I don't think what I want to
do is unreasonable. I am sorry that some folks here responded so
strongly to my comments about the purpose of the marine VHF rules.
Maybe
they can take a lesson from you...



My boat sank off Mitkof Island at night in the winter of 1971. There was
moss ice on the water and the air was -20. I had sent a distress call on
the radio. A tug cut its tow and pulled me out of the water and
resuscitated me. When the boat sank and I went into the water it felt
like I had been hit alongside the head with a 2X4. I was mercifully out
of consciousness within seconds. I have to say that it would be a very
quick way to die.

I have to say you were indeed a lucky one to have survived your
experience. What you felt is called cold shock, your body's response to
immersion in cold water. It is worse with decreasing temperature, but
actually reaches it's maximum between 50 and 60 degrees. Colder
temperatures than this do not produce a more severe effect because your
body is already responding at its maximum.

There is often an initial gasp reflex on sudden immersion resulting in a
lung full of water which is typically fatal. If you survive this, you
lose control of your breathing.

It takes some 5 to 15 minutes for you to lose the ability to use your
limbs depending on the water temperature.


I grew up alongside the Pacific Ocean on the North Coast of Oregon. The
water temperature was in the 40s. We could swim in that surf for about
20 minutes before we turned blue. It was great fun in the surf but
pretty dangerous. We were forbidden by our parents to do this, but being
forbidden made it better. :-)

The gasp reflex and cold shock can be mitigated by acclimation. By
going into the cold water often you likely built up some resistance to
these effects. This will wear off in about the same amount of time it
took to acquire it, so it would not have helped you by the time of your
accident.


I can say from my experience that any kind of cold water can kill. When
it is at freezing it kills very quickly, when it is in the 40s it kills
a little more slowly. I think the temperature and time probably could be
made into a formula for death.

That is actually dependent on a number of other factors such as your
body fat and of course clothing you are wearing. Increased body fat
extends the time you can be immersed before suffering from hypothermia.
Physical conditioning does nothing to help.


Like I said before, if you can keep from being cited by the FCC, a
marine radio would work pretty well for your purposes. It is very short
range and if you are using it in a small lake, the chances of your being
monitored are remote. Also you would not cause interference to anyone
else.

Yes, I will be kayaking this weekend and will discuss the issue with
some of my fellow paddlers. I'm sure they know more about this than I
have heard from them before.


Hi Rick

Yes I was lucky. My wife was listening to the radio at home. I had a
transceiver on 2182 at home. Oh dear, my bad it was illegal. She heard
my distress call and was on the edge of her seat. She then heard a
report from the tug that I had been recovered and was not breathing. She
thought the life she knew was over. Very traumatic for her, but not so
for me. She then heard the report that I had regained consciousness.

These events give one great respect for the elements and having a radio.

Yes, that is why I want to support the kayakers on the paddle next week,
as a safety measure. Last year we had a stiff wind from the north which
created significant waves at the start and a number of paddlers were not
able to make it all the way. I was part of the team which tracked their
progress and got them off the water. Cold was not an issue in this
case. Cold water makes such events much more dangerous. That is why I
want to have good radio communications.

I will be doing what is required to do this legally even if it means
sitting in a boat at the edge of the water.

Please take a look at this web site and let me know what you think. It
currently has a definite sea kayaking focus, but the intent is to
ultimately be inclusive of anyone who may end up in cold water, even if
not in a boat. If you would like to share the details of your story it
would be appreciated. You can contact me at the email address gnuarm at
gmail dot com

http://www.coldwatersafety.org/
Get a "cartopper" boat and strap it to a ladder rack on your truck -
put the "radio operator" in the boat.

wrote:
Get a "cartopper" boat and strap it to a ladder rack on your truck -
put the "radio operator" in the boat.

The FCC web page that covers the regulations specifically say this is
illegal. The ship, as they call it, must be on the water.

So you probably can assume that they mean you can't be standing in the
water, as in on the beach, or in a bucket of water, as in one of the
Disney Pirates of the Caribbean movies.

Geoff.


--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379

Yes I was lucky. My wife was listening to the radio at home. I had a
transceiver on 2182 at home. Oh dear, my bad it was illegal. She heard
my distress call and was on the edge of her seat. She then heard a
report from the tug that I had been recovered and was not breathing. She
thought the life she knew was over. Very traumatic for her, but not so
for me. She then heard the report that I had regained consciousness.

These events give one great respect for the elements and having a radio.

Yes, that is why I want to support the kayakers on the paddle next week,
as a safety measure. Last year we had a stiff wind from the north which
created significant waves at the start and a number of paddlers were not
able to make it all the way. I was part of the team which tracked their
progress and got them off the water. Cold was not an issue in this
case. Cold water makes such events much more dangerous. That is why I
want to have good radio communications.

I will be doing what is required to do this legally even if it means
sitting in a boat at the edge of the water.

Please take a look at this web site and let me know what you think. It
currently has a definite sea kayaking focus, but the intent is to
ultimately be inclusive of anyone who may end up in cold water, even if
not in a boat. If you would like to share the details of your story it
would be appreciated. You can contact me at the email address gnuarm at
gmail dot com

http://www.coldwatersafety.org/

Hi Rick,

Yes that was a good web site. I realized that my friend and I had become
adjusted somewhat to the cold surf. We did in fact first just go in for
5 minutes and had to get out. As we progressed during the summer we got
up to 20 minutes.

There are some details I left out about my immersion in very cold water.
I don't know if they are important to you or not. I could fill you in on
the details if you chose.

On Thu, 12 Sep 2013, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:

wrote:
Get a "cartopper" boat and strap it to a ladder rack on your truck -
put the "radio operator" in the boat.

The FCC web page that covers the regulations specifically say this is
illegal. The ship, as they call it, must be on the water.

So you probably can assume that they mean you can't be standing in the
water, as in on the beach, or in a bucket of water, as in one of the
Disney Pirates of the Caribbean movies.

Then put the boat in the water. That makes sense anyway, since if an
emergency comes up, you'll need the boat.

Now maybe this long off-topic wandering thread dealt with that originally,
and if so, then the solution is simple. Marine walkie talkies in the
kayak, a boat ready for rescue work on water, someone with height and a
scanner to wait for emergency calls, and cellphones for that person and
the rescue boat. A call comes in, if the rescue boat doesn't hear it the
listener higher up will, and calls the rescue boat with the cellphone.

Cellphones don't even have to be used, GMRS or CB or hey, amateur radio,
can all be used. Once the rescue boat is within range of the kayak, they
can ue the marine band, since both are boats and allowed to use the band.

Michael

On 9/12/2013 6:24 AM, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
rickman wrote:

Yes, that is why I want to support the kayakers on the paddle next week,
as a safety measure. Last year we had a stiff wind from the north which
created significant waves at the start and a number of paddlers were not
able to make it all the way. I was part of the team which tracked their
progress and got them off the water. Cold was not an issue in this
case. Cold water makes such events much more dangerous. That is why I
want to have good radio communications.

IMHO you would be far better off having them get cellphones with GPS
in them and have them phone in with their exact location if they need help.

You don't need a waterproof phone, if you double bag it in one of those
plastic bags sold to boaters to keep things dry, you should be ok.

I don't know how close to the shore they intend to stay, but if they get
far enough out, the conversation about where they are is something like:

"What do you see in front of you"? "Water".
"What do you see behind you"? "Water".
and so on.

Or even worse, when the answer to that question is "Fog".

I take it you have not read the full thread, that's ok. Cell phones
only work within range of a tower. The bay is miles wide and many areas
where we paddle have little or no cell phone coverage. Lake Anna is the
same. I have needed to use my cell phone while paddling only to find it
can't dial a number.

We always carry cell phones because they are useful when they work, but
we never rely one them. In fact, we never rely on any one safety
mechanism working. We always have a backup or two. That's why the
radio is useful. It can work when the cell phones don't and it can do
things a cell phone can't, like reach someone close by without knowing
their phone number.

--

Rick

On 9/12/2013 10:33 AM, Reader wrote:


Yes I was lucky. My wife was listening to the radio at home. I had a
transceiver on 2182 at home. Oh dear, my bad it was illegal. She heard
my distress call and was on the edge of her seat. She then heard a
report from the tug that I had been recovered and was not breathing. She
thought the life she knew was over. Very traumatic for her, but not so
for me. She then heard the report that I had regained consciousness.

These events give one great respect for the elements and having a radio.

Yes, that is why I want to support the kayakers on the paddle next week,
as a safety measure. Last year we had a stiff wind from the north which
created significant waves at the start and a number of paddlers were not
able to make it all the way. I was part of the team which tracked their
progress and got them off the water. Cold was not an issue in this
case. Cold water makes such events much more dangerous. That is why I
want to have good radio communications.

I will be doing what is required to do this legally even if it means
sitting in a boat at the edge of the water.

Please take a look at this web site and let me know what you think. It
currently has a definite sea kayaking focus, but the intent is to
ultimately be inclusive of anyone who may end up in cold water, even if
not in a boat. If you would like to share the details of your story it
would be appreciated. You can contact me at the email address gnuarm at
gmail dot com

http://www.coldwatersafety.org/

Hi Rick,

Yes that was a good web site. I realized that my friend and I had become
adjusted somewhat to the cold surf. We did in fact first just go in for
5 minutes and had to get out. As we progressed during the summer we got
up to 20 minutes.

There are some details I left out about my immersion in very cold water.
I don't know if they are important to you or not. I could fill you in on
the details if you chose.

I received the email of this message. I take it the email address on
that message is not valid. Can I get a real email address for you? I'd
like to discuss your incident in detail, just not in this group.

--

Rick

On Thu, 12 Sep 2013 14:14:07 +0000 (UTC), "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"
wrote:

wrote:
Get a "cartopper" boat and strap it to a ladder rack on your truck -
put the "radio operator" in the boat.

The FCC web page that covers the regulations specifically say this is
illegal. The ship, as they call it, must be on the water.

So you probably can assume that they mean you can't be standing in the
water, as in on the beach, or in a bucket of water, as in one of the
Disney Pirates of the Caribbean movies.

Geoff.
Put a swimming pool on a trailer and float a kayak in it.

rickman wrote:

I take it you have not read the full thread, that's ok. Cell phones
only work within range of a tower. The bay is miles wide and many areas
where we paddle have little or no cell phone coverage. Lake Anna is the
same. I have needed to use my cell phone while paddling only to find it
can't dial a number.

Why are you so belligerent? Yes, I have read the entire thread, and I am aware
of the size of the bay.

GSM cell phone coverage is limited by timing to 35km, about 5-10 times the
range of a VHF handheld. If an 850 mHz GSM phone is not going to work
where you are then a handheld won't reach land either.


We always carry cell phones because they are useful when they work, but
we never rely one them. In fact, we never rely on any one safety
mechanism working. We always have a backup or two. That's why the
radio is useful. It can work when the cell phones don't and it can do
things a cell phone can't, like reach someone close by without knowing
their phone number.


But that was not the point of this whole ****ing contest. It was based upon
your mistaken understanding that you could put a 25 watt boat radio in
your truck ON LAND and reach kayaks in the water.

The laws of physics being what they are, yes you could probably go fairly
far with a 25 watt radio, a good antenna and height and with a receive
preamp and a beam antenna be able to hear across the entire bay and
possibly be heard.

Since that is not an option, you are stuck with a handheld radio and a
rubber ducky, which will get you a couple of miles on a good day if you
are on land, and more if you are on water.

Come to think of it the best suggestion was to have someone build a decent
listening post on high ground (or with a tower) and relay information
to someone via cell phone on the water.

The are AFAIK no restrictions on land based fixed receivers and you could
take old Motorola Maxtracs (available for almost nothing these days),
connect them up to 3 element beam antennas, add a cheap receive preamplifier
and hear everything on the bay if you had enough receivers with their
antennas spread in an overlapping pattern.

Geoff.
--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379

wrote:
Put a swimming pool on a trailer and float a kayak in it.

That sounds like a good idea, it is a ship, and it is on water. :-)

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379

On Fri, 13 Sep 2013, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:

wrote:
Put a swimming pool on a trailer and float a kayak in it.

That sounds like a good idea, it is a ship, and it is on water. :-)

Geoff.

What hapens if you put the kayak in a swimming pool on a cruise ship?

Michael