On 9/3/2013 12:47 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/2/2013 1:11 AM, Fred McKenzie wrote:
In ,
wrote:

I doubt I'll be mounting this in a boat although that is a possibility
someday, I do have a ski boat. But more likely is that I'll mount it at
my house on a lake to provide some amount of emergency monitoring. So I
expect to mount it in the pickup so it can be easily removed and brought
into the house. I guess that means a second antenna too.

Rick-

I am assuming you can manage the legal requirements for use of the
radio. As others mentioned, a license may be needed.

One question you must address, is what kind of range do you need to
cover? VHF radios are essentially line-of-sight. Due to the curvature
of the earth, the "radio horizon" will limit your range.

You can estimate the distance in miles to the radio horizon, as the
square root of twice the altitude of your antenna in feet. For example,
the antenna on the roof of your truck will be approximately five feet
off the ground. The square root of ten is about 3.2, so your horizon on
level ground will be about 3 miles away.

You can add the distance to the kayak's horizon to yours. So it would
matter if the kayak is on a mountainous stream or on the open ocean or
lake.

If vehicle mounting does not provide the range you need, a tall antenna
may be required at the house. (Have you considered using cell phones?)

Hi Fred, I appreciate the response.

I'm not sure there is a lot of value to calculating the line of sight
for the antenna mount. I don't have much choice in the mount other than
having to make it lower because of some practical consideration like
hitting bridges... As to need, I want the max I can get of course. The
other end of the link will all be handheld radios.

The kayaks will be on the Chesapeake Bay, but close to shore. So land
obstructions will be the limiting factor most of the time. At least it
seemed that way on prior trips. But I don't have a lot of experience
with the hand held units we used so I'm not sure what I should have
expected.

The sort of issue I'm more interested in discussing are things like what
type of antenna and how best to mount and connect it to the radio. Of
course, I'm interested in the radios if anyone here has experience with
them. I see 25 Watt (which I'm assuming is the max available) units at
the bottom end for just over $100 and others which seem to be similar in
regards to the specs I understand for over $200 and of course the prices
run upward too. Are there aspects I should look for that I need to dig
deeper into the specs to find? For example is there some spec on the
internals of the receiver that would make a weakly received signal more
clear than another radio? What about the speaker itself? Would it be
better to have an external speaker or is the internal speaker usually ok?

I'm looking for advice from those who are experienced with marine VHF.
Of course, I don't know what I don't know, so I'm looking for help
figuring out the questions.


Rick,

You've answered a couple of questions here. First of all, you are in
the United States, so are governed by the FCC.

Marine radio licenses are not needed for the kayaks while on the river,
but land stations (i.e. your truck) would do.

You could be considered a "Private Coastal Station". You would have to
"provide a service to vessels..." to get this license. I'm not sure if
the FCC would consider talking to your kayaks to be "a service to
vessels" - I guess it could be argued that it is.

Another option would be a "Marine Utility Station" - these restricted to
handhelds with ten watts or less power. You still have to "provide a
service to vessels".

Another option would be the "General Mobile Radio Service". You don't
have to provide a service to vessels with this license, but it is
basically handhelds in the 1-5 watt range (and can have removable
antennas, so you could add an external antenna). You need a license
here, but family members can all operate under the same license
(individual licenses are not required).

Of course, every person operating a radio could get a ham license; you
would be much less restricted in your operation (power, frequencies,
etc.). You just can't use it for business - which it sounds like you
aren't. Each person would have to pass a test (not that hard and many
ham clubs around the country provide testing on a regular basis). Of
course, it gives you a lot of other options, also - like using a
repeater to extend the range of both the kayaks and your truck, assuming
one is available (I don't know what's available around the Chesapeake
River area, but this area is loaded with repeaters).

I hope this helps you with some ideas.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

On 9/3/2013 2:07 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/3/2013 12:47 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/2/2013 1:11 AM, Fred McKenzie wrote:
In ,
wrote:

I doubt I'll be mounting this in a boat although that is a possibility
someday, I do have a ski boat. But more likely is that I'll mount it at
my house on a lake to provide some amount of emergency monitoring. So I
expect to mount it in the pickup so it can be easily removed and
brought
into the house. I guess that means a second antenna too.

Rick-

I am assuming you can manage the legal requirements for use of the
radio. As others mentioned, a license may be needed.

One question you must address, is what kind of range do you need to
cover? VHF radios are essentially line-of-sight. Due to the curvature
of the earth, the "radio horizon" will limit your range.

You can estimate the distance in miles to the radio horizon, as the
square root of twice the altitude of your antenna in feet. For example,
the antenna on the roof of your truck will be approximately five feet
off the ground. The square root of ten is about 3.2, so your horizon on
level ground will be about 3 miles away.

You can add the distance to the kayak's horizon to yours. So it would
matter if the kayak is on a mountainous stream or on the open ocean or
lake.

If vehicle mounting does not provide the range you need, a tall antenna
may be required at the house. (Have you considered using cell phones?)
ccc
Hi Fred, I appreciate the response.

I'm not sure there is a lot of value to calculating the line of sight
for the antenna mount. I don't have much choice in the mount other than
having to make it lower because of some practical consideration like
hitting bridges... As to need, I want the max I can get of course. The
other end of the link will all be handheld radios.

The kayaks will be on the Chesapeake Bay, but close to shore. So land
obstructions will be the limiting factor most of the time. At least it
seemed that way on prior trips. But I don't have a lot of experience
with the hand held units we used so I'm not sure what I should have
expected.

The sort of issue I'm more interested in discussing are things like what
type of antenna and how best to mount and connect it to the radio. Of
course, I'm interested in the radios if anyone here has experience with
them. I see 25 Watt (which I'm assuming is the max available) units at
the bottom end for just over $100 and others which seem to be similar in
regards to the specs I understand for over $200 and of course the prices
run upward too. Are there aspects I should look for that I need to dig
deeper into the specs to find? For example is there some spec on the
internals of the receiver that would make a weakly received signal more
clear than another radio? What about the speaker itself? Would it be
better to have an external speaker or is the internal speaker usually ok?

I'm looking for advice from those who are experienced with marine VHF.
Of course, I don't know what I don't know, so I'm looking for help
figuring out the questions.


Rick,

You've answered a couple of questions here. First of all, you are in the
United States, so are governed by the FCC.

Marine radio licenses are not needed for the kayaks while on the river,
but land stations (i.e. your truck) would do.

You could be considered a "Private Coastal Station". You would have to
"provide a service to vessels..." to get this license. I'm not sure if
the FCC would consider talking to your kayaks to be "a service to
vessels" - I guess it could be argued that it is.

Another option would be a "Marine Utility Station" - these restricted to
handhelds with ten watts or less power. You still have to "provide a
service to vessels".

Another option would be the "General Mobile Radio Service". You don't
have to provide a service to vessels with this license, but it is
basically handhelds in the 1-5 watt range (and can have removable
antennas, so you could add an external antenna). You need a license
here, but family members can all operate under the same license
(individual licenses are not required).

Of course, every person operating a radio could get a ham license; you
would be much less restricted in your operation (power, frequencies,
etc.). You just can't use it for business - which it sounds like you
aren't. Each person would have to pass a test (not that hard and many
ham clubs around the country provide testing on a regular basis). Of
course, it gives you a lot of other options, also - like using a
repeater to extend the range of both the kayaks and your truck, assuming
one is available (I don't know what's available around the Chesapeake
River area, but this area is loaded with repeaters).

I hope this helps you with some ideas.

Jerry, yes, this helps a lot. Once I was told I needed the license I
found the FCC site to be less than clear. I appreciate you laying out
the options. I would like to have a more powerful transmitter than the
handhelds have, so I think I will research the Private Coastal Station.
One of the licenses mentioned on the FCC page says you can fill in the
form online and you effectively are licensed as soon as you make the
application. I believe this was the "marine utility station license",
but I can't find that info at the moment.

Does a private costal station have to be stationary? Could I swap the
unit between house and vehicle? Or do I need two licenses?

--

Rick

On 9/3/2013 3:05 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/3/2013 2:07 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/3/2013 12:47 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/2/2013 1:11 AM, Fred McKenzie wrote:
In ,
wrote:

I doubt I'll be mounting this in a boat although that is a possibility
someday, I do have a ski boat. But more likely is that I'll mount
it at
my house on a lake to provide some amount of emergency monitoring.
So I
expect to mount it in the pickup so it can be easily removed and
brought
into the house. I guess that means a second antenna too.

Rick-

I am assuming you can manage the legal requirements for use of the
radio. As others mentioned, a license may be needed.

One question you must address, is what kind of range do you need to
cover? VHF radios are essentially line-of-sight. Due to the curvature
of the earth, the "radio horizon" will limit your range.

You can estimate the distance in miles to the radio horizon, as the
square root of twice the altitude of your antenna in feet. For example,
the antenna on the roof of your truck will be approximately five feet
off the ground. The square root of ten is about 3.2, so your horizon on
level ground will be about 3 miles away.

You can add the distance to the kayak's horizon to yours. So it would
matter if the kayak is on a mountainous stream or on the open ocean or
lake.

If vehicle mounting does not provide the range you need, a tall antenna
may be required at the house. (Have you considered using cell phones?)
ccc
Hi Fred, I appreciate the response.

I'm not sure there is a lot of value to calculating the line of sight
for the antenna mount. I don't have much choice in the mount other than
having to make it lower because of some practical consideration like
hitting bridges... As to need, I want the max I can get of course. The
other end of the link will all be handheld radios.

The kayaks will be on the Chesapeake Bay, but close to shore. So land
obstructions will be the limiting factor most of the time. At least it
seemed that way on prior trips. But I don't have a lot of experience
with the hand held units we used so I'm not sure what I should have
expected.

The sort of issue I'm more interested in discussing are things like what
type of antenna and how best to mount and connect it to the radio. Of
course, I'm interested in the radios if anyone here has experience with
them. I see 25 Watt (which I'm assuming is the max available) units at
the bottom end for just over $100 and others which seem to be similar in
regards to the specs I understand for over $200 and of course the prices
run upward too. Are there aspects I should look for that I need to dig
deeper into the specs to find? For example is there some spec on the
internals of the receiver that would make a weakly received signal more
clear than another radio? What about the speaker itself? Would it be
better to have an external speaker or is the internal speaker usually
ok?

I'm looking for advice from those who are experienced with marine VHF.
Of course, I don't know what I don't know, so I'm looking for help
figuring out the questions.


Rick,

You've answered a couple of questions here. First of all, you are in the
United States, so are governed by the FCC.

Marine radio licenses are not needed for the kayaks while on the river,
but land stations (i.e. your truck) would do.

You could be considered a "Private Coastal Station". You would have to
"provide a service to vessels..." to get this license. I'm not sure if
the FCC would consider talking to your kayaks to be "a service to
vessels" - I guess it could be argued that it is.

Another option would be a "Marine Utility Station" - these restricted to
handhelds with ten watts or less power. You still have to "provide a
service to vessels".

Another option would be the "General Mobile Radio Service". You don't
have to provide a service to vessels with this license, but it is
basically handhelds in the 1-5 watt range (and can have removable
antennas, so you could add an external antenna). You need a license
here, but family members can all operate under the same license
(individual licenses are not required).

Of course, every person operating a radio could get a ham license; you
would be much less restricted in your operation (power, frequencies,
etc.). You just can't use it for business - which it sounds like you
aren't. Each person would have to pass a test (not that hard and many
ham clubs around the country provide testing on a regular basis). Of
course, it gives you a lot of other options, also - like using a
repeater to extend the range of both the kayaks and your truck, assuming
one is available (I don't know what's available around the Chesapeake
River area, but this area is loaded with repeaters).

I hope this helps you with some ideas.

Jerry, yes, this helps a lot. Once I was told I needed the license I
found the FCC site to be less than clear. I appreciate you laying out
the options. I would like to have a more powerful transmitter than the
handhelds have, so I think I will research the Private Coastal Station.
One of the licenses mentioned on the FCC page says you can fill in the
form online and you effectively are licensed as soon as you make the
application. I believe this was the "marine utility station license",
but I can't find that info at the moment.

Does a private costal station have to be stationary? Could I swap the
unit between house and vehicle? Or do I need two licenses?


OK, I did a little more looking into the FCC regs (Part 80 governs
Maritime use). The supplemental restrictions for a Private Coastal
Station are listed at
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx...1.78.1&idno=47.

It looks like you do not meet any of the requirements, so you would not
be eligible for such a license.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.

==================

On 9/3/2013 3:24 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/3/2013 3:05 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/3/2013 2:07 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/3/2013 12:47 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/2/2013 1:11 AM, Fred McKenzie wrote:
In ,
wrote:

I doubt I'll be mounting this in a boat although that is a
possibility
someday, I do have a ski boat. But more likely is that I'll mount
it at
my house on a lake to provide some amount of emergency monitoring.
So I
expect to mount it in the pickup so it can be easily removed and
brought
into the house. I guess that means a second antenna too.

Rick-

I am assuming you can manage the legal requirements for use of the
radio. As others mentioned, a license may be needed.

One question you must address, is what kind of range do you need to
cover? VHF radios are essentially line-of-sight. Due to the curvature
of the earth, the "radio horizon" will limit your range.

You can estimate the distance in miles to the radio horizon, as the
square root of twice the altitude of your antenna in feet. For
example,
the antenna on the roof of your truck will be approximately five feet
off the ground. The square root of ten is about 3.2, so your
horizon on
level ground will be about 3 miles away.

You can add the distance to the kayak's horizon to yours. So it would
matter if the kayak is on a mountainous stream or on the open ocean or
lake.

If vehicle mounting does not provide the range you need, a tall
antenna
may be required at the house. (Have you considered using cell phones?)
ccc
Hi Fred, I appreciate the response.

I'm not sure there is a lot of value to calculating the line of sight
for the antenna mount. I don't have much choice in the mount other than
having to make it lower because of some practical consideration like
hitting bridges... As to need, I want the max I can get of course. The
other end of the link will all be handheld radios.

The kayaks will be on the Chesapeake Bay, but close to shore. So land
obstructions will be the limiting factor most of the time. At least it
seemed that way on prior trips. But I don't have a lot of experience
with the hand held units we used so I'm not sure what I should have
expected.

The sort of issue I'm more interested in discussing are things like
what
type of antenna and how best to mount and connect it to the radio. Of
course, I'm interested in the radios if anyone here has experience with
them. I see 25 Watt (which I'm assuming is the max available) units at
the bottom end for just over $100 and others which seem to be
similar in
regards to the specs I understand for over $200 and of course the
prices
run upward too. Are there aspects I should look for that I need to dig
deeper into the specs to find? For example is there some spec on the
internals of the receiver that would make a weakly received signal more
clear than another radio? What about the speaker itself? Would it be
better to have an external speaker or is the internal speaker usually
ok?

I'm looking for advice from those who are experienced with marine VHF.
Of course, I don't know what I don't know, so I'm looking for help
figuring out the questions.


Rick,

You've answered a couple of questions here. First of all, you are in the
United States, so are governed by the FCC.

Marine radio licenses are not needed for the kayaks while on the river,
but land stations (i.e. your truck) would do.

You could be considered a "Private Coastal Station". You would have to
"provide a service to vessels..." to get this license. I'm not sure if
the FCC would consider talking to your kayaks to be "a service to
vessels" - I guess it could be argued that it is.

Another option would be a "Marine Utility Station" - these restricted to
handhelds with ten watts or less power. You still have to "provide a
service to vessels".

Another option would be the "General Mobile Radio Service". You don't
have to provide a service to vessels with this license, but it is
basically handhelds in the 1-5 watt range (and can have removable
antennas, so you could add an external antenna). You need a license
here, but family members can all operate under the same license
(individual licenses are not required).

Of course, every person operating a radio could get a ham license; you
would be much less restricted in your operation (power, frequencies,
etc.). You just can't use it for business - which it sounds like you
aren't. Each person would have to pass a test (not that hard and many
ham clubs around the country provide testing on a regular basis). Of
course, it gives you a lot of other options, also - like using a
repeater to extend the range of both the kayaks and your truck, assuming
one is available (I don't know what's available around the Chesapeake
River area, but this area is loaded with repeaters).

I hope this helps you with some ideas.

Jerry, yes, this helps a lot. Once I was told I needed the license I
found the FCC site to be less than clear. I appreciate you laying out
the options. I would like to have a more powerful transmitter than the
handhelds have, so I think I will research the Private Coastal Station.
One of the licenses mentioned on the FCC page says you can fill in the
form online and you effectively are licensed as soon as you make the
application. I believe this was the "marine utility station license",
but I can't find that info at the moment.

Does a private costal station have to be stationary? Could I swap the
unit between house and vehicle? Or do I need two licenses?


OK, I did a little more looking into the FCC regs (Part 80 governs
Maritime use). The supplemental restrictions for a Private Coastal
Station are listed at
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx...1.78.1&idno=47.


It looks like you do not meet any of the requirements, so you would not
be eligible for such a license.

I might be able to justify "(8) A person servicing or supplying vessels
other than commercial transport vessels;" Worth a try. I do fiberglas
repair as well as maintenance of the mechanical parts on the kayaks that
have rudders or skegs. This is not a profession, but they seem to be
pushing for non-commercial use on this one.

But a amateur license might be the best bet. Does this require my to
learn a bunch of technical stuff? That shouldn't be a problem, in
theory I'm an EE, but I've done mostly digital work and I know RF is a
whole different animal. Can you point me in the right direction toward
getting an amateur license that would let me operate a marine radio on
land? Who knows, I might end up doing a bunch of other amateur radio
stuff... I know it can be an addictive hobby... lol

--

Rick

On 9/3/2013 10:10 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/3/2013 3:24 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/3/2013 3:05 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/3/2013 2:07 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/3/2013 12:47 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/2/2013 1:11 AM, Fred McKenzie wrote:
In ,
wrote:

I doubt I'll be mounting this in a boat although that is a
possibility
someday, I do have a ski boat. But more likely is that I'll mount
it at
my house on a lake to provide some amount of emergency monitoring.
So I
expect to mount it in the pickup so it can be easily removed and
brought
into the house. I guess that means a second antenna too.

Rick-

I am assuming you can manage the legal requirements for use of the
radio. As others mentioned, a license may be needed.

One question you must address, is what kind of range do you need to
cover? VHF radios are essentially line-of-sight. Due to the curvature
of the earth, the "radio horizon" will limit your range.

You can estimate the distance in miles to the radio horizon, as the
square root of twice the altitude of your antenna in feet. For
example,
the antenna on the roof of your truck will be approximately five feet
off the ground. The square root of ten is about 3.2, so your
horizon on
level ground will be about 3 miles away.

You can add the distance to the kayak's horizon to yours. So it would
matter if the kayak is on a mountainous stream or on the open
ocean or
lake.

If vehicle mounting does not provide the range you need, a tall
antenna
may be required at the house. (Have you considered using cell
phones?)
ccc
Hi Fred, I appreciate the response.

I'm not sure there is a lot of value to calculating the line of sight
for the antenna mount. I don't have much choice in the mount other
than
having to make it lower because of some practical consideration like
hitting bridges... As to need, I want the max I can get of course. The
other end of the link will all be handheld radios.

The kayaks will be on the Chesapeake Bay, but close to shore. So land
obstructions will be the limiting factor most of the time. At least it
seemed that way on prior trips. But I don't have a lot of experience
with the hand held units we used so I'm not sure what I should have
expected.

The sort of issue I'm more interested in discussing are things like
what
type of antenna and how best to mount and connect it to the radio. Of
course, I'm interested in the radios if anyone here has experience
with
them. I see 25 Watt (which I'm assuming is the max available) units at
the bottom end for just over $100 and others which seem to be
similar in
regards to the specs I understand for over $200 and of course the
prices
run upward too. Are there aspects I should look for that I need to dig
deeper into the specs to find? For example is there some spec on the
internals of the receiver that would make a weakly received signal
more
clear than another radio? What about the speaker itself? Would it be
better to have an external speaker or is the internal speaker usually
ok?

I'm looking for advice from those who are experienced with marine VHF.
Of course, I don't know what I don't know, so I'm looking for help
figuring out the questions.


Rick,

You've answered a couple of questions here. First of all, you are in
the
United States, so are governed by the FCC.

Marine radio licenses are not needed for the kayaks while on the river,
but land stations (i.e. your truck) would do.

You could be considered a "Private Coastal Station". You would have to
"provide a service to vessels..." to get this license. I'm not sure if
the FCC would consider talking to your kayaks to be "a service to
vessels" - I guess it could be argued that it is.

Another option would be a "Marine Utility Station" - these
restricted to
handhelds with ten watts or less power. You still have to "provide a
service to vessels".

Another option would be the "General Mobile Radio Service". You don't
have to provide a service to vessels with this license, but it is
basically handhelds in the 1-5 watt range (and can have removable
antennas, so you could add an external antenna). You need a license
here, but family members can all operate under the same license
(individual licenses are not required).

Of course, every person operating a radio could get a ham license; you
would be much less restricted in your operation (power, frequencies,
etc.). You just can't use it for business - which it sounds like you
aren't. Each person would have to pass a test (not that hard and many
ham clubs around the country provide testing on a regular basis). Of
course, it gives you a lot of other options, also - like using a
repeater to extend the range of both the kayaks and your truck,
assuming
one is available (I don't know what's available around the Chesapeake
River area, but this area is loaded with repeaters).

I hope this helps you with some ideas.

Jerry, yes, this helps a lot. Once I was told I needed the license I
found the FCC site to be less than clear. I appreciate you laying out
the options. I would like to have a more powerful transmitter than the
handhelds have, so I think I will research the Private Coastal Station.
One of the licenses mentioned on the FCC page says you can fill in the
form online and you effectively are licensed as soon as you make the
application. I believe this was the "marine utility station license",
but I can't find that info at the moment.

Does a private costal station have to be stationary? Could I swap the
unit between house and vehicle? Or do I need two licenses?


OK, I did a little more looking into the FCC regs (Part 80 governs
Maritime use). The supplemental restrictions for a Private Coastal
Station are listed at
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx...1.78.1&idno=47.



It looks like you do not meet any of the requirements, so you would not
be eligible for such a license.

I might be able to justify "(8) A person servicing or supplying vessels
other than commercial transport vessels;" Worth a try. I do fiberglas
repair as well as maintenance of the mechanical parts on the kayaks that
have rudders or skegs. This is not a profession, but they seem to be
pushing for non-commercial use on this one.


I'm not sure you can justify it. You're doing it as a hobby, for your
club (or whatever), not as a commercial enterprise. The FCC seems to be
trying to limit the number of land licenses being issued.

But a amateur license might be the best bet. Does this require my to
learn a bunch of technical stuff? That shouldn't be a problem, in
theory I'm an EE, but I've done mostly digital work and I know RF is a
whole different animal. Can you point me in the right direction toward
getting an amateur license that would let me operate a marine radio on
land? Who knows, I might end up doing a bunch of other amateur radio
stuff... I know it can be an addictive hobby... lol


You'll need to learn some rules and regs, and some theory. But it's not
hard - the question pool is published; nowadays people just memorize the
pool from which the questions are taken.

But an Amateur Radio license allows you to operate Amateur Radios - no
marine or any others. That's why I say everyone in control of a radio
(including on the kayaks) would have to have a ham license (and call
sign). But we have lots of frequencies available and lots of options.

You can find more information at www.arrl.org.




--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.

==================

On 9/3/2013 10:22 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/3/2013 10:10 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/3/2013 3:24 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/3/2013 3:05 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/3/2013 2:07 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/3/2013 12:47 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/2/2013 1:11 AM, Fred McKenzie wrote:
In ,
wrote:

I doubt I'll be mounting this in a boat although that is a
possibility
someday, I do have a ski boat. But more likely is that I'll mount
it at
my house on a lake to provide some amount of emergency monitoring.
So I
expect to mount it in the pickup so it can be easily removed and
brought
into the house. I guess that means a second antenna too.

Rick-

I am assuming you can manage the legal requirements for use of the
radio. As others mentioned, a license may be needed.

One question you must address, is what kind of range do you need to
cover? VHF radios are essentially line-of-sight. Due to the
curvature
of the earth, the "radio horizon" will limit your range.

You can estimate the distance in miles to the radio horizon, as the
square root of twice the altitude of your antenna in feet. For
example,
the antenna on the roof of your truck will be approximately five
feet
off the ground. The square root of ten is about 3.2, so your
horizon on
level ground will be about 3 miles away.

You can add the distance to the kayak's horizon to yours. So it
would
matter if the kayak is on a mountainous stream or on the open
ocean or
lake.

If vehicle mounting does not provide the range you need, a tall
antenna
may be required at the house. (Have you considered using cell
phones?)
ccc
Hi Fred, I appreciate the response.

I'm not sure there is a lot of value to calculating the line of sight
for the antenna mount. I don't have much choice in the mount other
than
having to make it lower because of some practical consideration like
hitting bridges... As to need, I want the max I can get of course.
The
other end of the link will all be handheld radios.

The kayaks will be on the Chesapeake Bay, but close to shore. So land
obstructions will be the limiting factor most of the time. At
least it
seemed that way on prior trips. But I don't have a lot of experience
with the hand held units we used so I'm not sure what I should have
expected.

The sort of issue I'm more interested in discussing are things like
what
type of antenna and how best to mount and connect it to the radio. Of
course, I'm interested in the radios if anyone here has experience
with
them. I see 25 Watt (which I'm assuming is the max available)
units at
the bottom end for just over $100 and others which seem to be
similar in
regards to the specs I understand for over $200 and of course the
prices
run upward too. Are there aspects I should look for that I need to
dig
deeper into the specs to find? For example is there some spec on the
internals of the receiver that would make a weakly received signal
more
clear than another radio? What about the speaker itself? Would it be
better to have an external speaker or is the internal speaker usually
ok?

I'm looking for advice from those who are experienced with marine
VHF.
Of course, I don't know what I don't know, so I'm looking for help
figuring out the questions.


Rick,

You've answered a couple of questions here. First of all, you are in
the
United States, so are governed by the FCC.

Marine radio licenses are not needed for the kayaks while on the
river,
but land stations (i.e. your truck) would do.

You could be considered a "Private Coastal Station". You would have to
"provide a service to vessels..." to get this license. I'm not sure if
the FCC would consider talking to your kayaks to be "a service to
vessels" - I guess it could be argued that it is.

Another option would be a "Marine Utility Station" - these
restricted to
handhelds with ten watts or less power. You still have to "provide a
service to vessels".

Another option would be the "General Mobile Radio Service". You don't
have to provide a service to vessels with this license, but it is
basically handhelds in the 1-5 watt range (and can have removable
antennas, so you could add an external antenna). You need a license
here, but family members can all operate under the same license
(individual licenses are not required).

Of course, every person operating a radio could get a ham license; you
would be much less restricted in your operation (power, frequencies,
etc.). You just can't use it for business - which it sounds like you
aren't. Each person would have to pass a test (not that hard and many
ham clubs around the country provide testing on a regular basis). Of
course, it gives you a lot of other options, also - like using a
repeater to extend the range of both the kayaks and your truck,
assuming
one is available (I don't know what's available around the Chesapeake
River area, but this area is loaded with repeaters).

I hope this helps you with some ideas.

Jerry, yes, this helps a lot. Once I was told I needed the license I
found the FCC site to be less than clear. I appreciate you laying out
the options. I would like to have a more powerful transmitter than the
handhelds have, so I think I will research the Private Coastal Station.
One of the licenses mentioned on the FCC page says you can fill in the
form online and you effectively are licensed as soon as you make the
application. I believe this was the "marine utility station license",
but I can't find that info at the moment.

Does a private costal station have to be stationary? Could I swap the
unit between house and vehicle? Or do I need two licenses?


OK, I did a little more looking into the FCC regs (Part 80 governs
Maritime use). The supplemental restrictions for a Private Coastal
Station are listed at
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx...1.78.1&idno=47.




It looks like you do not meet any of the requirements, so you would not
be eligible for such a license.

I might be able to justify "(8) A person servicing or supplying vessels
other than commercial transport vessels;" Worth a try. I do fiberglas
repair as well as maintenance of the mechanical parts on the kayaks that
have rudders or skegs. This is not a profession, but they seem to be
pushing for non-commercial use on this one.


I'm not sure you can justify it. You're doing it as a hobby, for your
club (or whatever), not as a commercial enterprise. The FCC seems to be
trying to limit the number of land licenses being issued.

But a amateur license might be the best bet. Does this require my to
learn a bunch of technical stuff? That shouldn't be a problem, in
theory I'm an EE, but I've done mostly digital work and I know RF is a
whole different animal. Can you point me in the right direction toward
getting an amateur license that would let me operate a marine radio on
land? Who knows, I might end up doing a bunch of other amateur radio
stuff... I know it can be an addictive hobby... lol


You'll need to learn some rules and regs, and some theory. But it's not
hard - the question pool is published; nowadays people just memorize the
pool from which the questions are taken.

But an Amateur Radio license allows you to operate Amateur Radios - no
marine or any others. That's why I say everyone in control of a radio
(including on the kayaks) would have to have a ham license (and call
sign). But we have lots of frequencies available and lots of options.

You can find more information at www.arrl.org.

Hmmm... maybe I don't understand the amateur license. The need is for
using marine band radios, not just any radios that can be found. That
is not going to change. Are you saying that an amateur license won't
allow the use of a marine band radio in the context I have been
describing?

I found a few links on the tests and they seem pretty simple. As yopu
say, there is a little memorization of regulations and some technical
stuff which isn't hard. I can't imagine I wouldn't be able to pass the
test this weekend. But it sounds like it would be of no use for this
purpose. It seems rather restrictive to me that anyone can have a
marine band radio in their boat and use it freely, but if you need to
contact your house or other shore location you need to use something
else. I'm sure talking between ships is useful, but in many cases the
need is between ship and shore. I'm just not allowed to use a marine
radio on shore... what?

--

Rick

On 9/5/2013 4:33 AM, rickman wrote:
On 9/3/2013 10:22 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/3/2013 10:10 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/3/2013 3:24 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/3/2013 3:05 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/3/2013 2:07 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
On 9/3/2013 12:47 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/2/2013 1:11 AM, Fred McKenzie wrote:
In ,
wrote:

I doubt I'll be mounting this in a boat although that is a
possibility
someday, I do have a ski boat. But more likely is that I'll mount
it at
my house on a lake to provide some amount of emergency monitoring.
So I
expect to mount it in the pickup so it can be easily removed and
brought
into the house. I guess that means a second antenna too.

Rick-

I am assuming you can manage the legal requirements for use of the
radio. As others mentioned, a license may be needed.

One question you must address, is what kind of range do you need to
cover? VHF radios are essentially line-of-sight. Due to the
curvature
of the earth, the "radio horizon" will limit your range.

You can estimate the distance in miles to the radio horizon, as the
square root of twice the altitude of your antenna in feet. For
example,
the antenna on the roof of your truck will be approximately five
feet
off the ground. The square root of ten is about 3.2, so your
horizon on
level ground will be about 3 miles away.

You can add the distance to the kayak's horizon to yours. So it
would
matter if the kayak is on a mountainous stream or on the open
ocean or
lake.

If vehicle mounting does not provide the range you need, a tall
antenna
may be required at the house. (Have you considered using cell
phones?)
ccc
Hi Fred, I appreciate the response.

I'm not sure there is a lot of value to calculating the line of
sight
for the antenna mount. I don't have much choice in the mount other
than
having to make it lower because of some practical consideration like
hitting bridges... As to need, I want the max I can get of course.
The
other end of the link will all be handheld radios.

The kayaks will be on the Chesapeake Bay, but close to shore. So
land
obstructions will be the limiting factor most of the time. At
least it
seemed that way on prior trips. But I don't have a lot of experience
with the hand held units we used so I'm not sure what I should have
expected.

The sort of issue I'm more interested in discussing are things like
what
type of antenna and how best to mount and connect it to the
radio. Of
course, I'm interested in the radios if anyone here has experience
with
them. I see 25 Watt (which I'm assuming is the max available)
units at
the bottom end for just over $100 and others which seem to be
similar in
regards to the specs I understand for over $200 and of course the
prices
run upward too. Are there aspects I should look for that I need to
dig
deeper into the specs to find? For example is there some spec on the
internals of the receiver that would make a weakly received signal
more
clear than another radio? What about the speaker itself? Would it be
better to have an external speaker or is the internal speaker
usually
ok?

I'm looking for advice from those who are experienced with marine
VHF.
Of course, I don't know what I don't know, so I'm looking for help
figuring out the questions.


Rick,

You've answered a couple of questions here. First of all, you are in
the
United States, so are governed by the FCC.

Marine radio licenses are not needed for the kayaks while on the
river,
but land stations (i.e. your truck) would do.

You could be considered a "Private Coastal Station". You would
have to
"provide a service to vessels..." to get this license. I'm not
sure if
the FCC would consider talking to your kayaks to be "a service to
vessels" - I guess it could be argued that it is.

Another option would be a "Marine Utility Station" - these
restricted to
handhelds with ten watts or less power. You still have to "provide a
service to vessels".

Another option would be the "General Mobile Radio Service". You don't
have to provide a service to vessels with this license, but it is
basically handhelds in the 1-5 watt range (and can have removable
antennas, so you could add an external antenna). You need a license
here, but family members can all operate under the same license
(individual licenses are not required).

Of course, every person operating a radio could get a ham license;
you
would be much less restricted in your operation (power, frequencies,
etc.). You just can't use it for business - which it sounds like you
aren't. Each person would have to pass a test (not that hard and many
ham clubs around the country provide testing on a regular basis). Of
course, it gives you a lot of other options, also - like using a
repeater to extend the range of both the kayaks and your truck,
assuming
one is available (I don't know what's available around the Chesapeake
River area, but this area is loaded with repeaters).

I hope this helps you with some ideas.

Jerry, yes, this helps a lot. Once I was told I needed the license I
found the FCC site to be less than clear. I appreciate you laying out
the options. I would like to have a more powerful transmitter than the
handhelds have, so I think I will research the Private Coastal
Station.
One of the licenses mentioned on the FCC page says you can fill in the
form online and you effectively are licensed as soon as you make the
application. I believe this was the "marine utility station license",
but I can't find that info at the moment.

Does a private costal station have to be stationary? Could I swap the
unit between house and vehicle? Or do I need two licenses?


OK, I did a little more looking into the FCC regs (Part 80 governs
Maritime use). The supplemental restrictions for a Private Coastal
Station are listed at
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx...1.78.1&idno=47.





It looks like you do not meet any of the requirements, so you would not
be eligible for such a license.

I might be able to justify "(8) A person servicing or supplying vessels
other than commercial transport vessels;" Worth a try. I do fiberglas
repair as well as maintenance of the mechanical parts on the kayaks that
have rudders or skegs. This is not a profession, but they seem to be
pushing for non-commercial use on this one.


I'm not sure you can justify it. You're doing it as a hobby, for your
club (or whatever), not as a commercial enterprise. The FCC seems to be
trying to limit the number of land licenses being issued.

But a amateur license might be the best bet. Does this require my to
learn a bunch of technical stuff? That shouldn't be a problem, in
theory I'm an EE, but I've done mostly digital work and I know RF is a
whole different animal. Can you point me in the right direction toward
getting an amateur license that would let me operate a marine radio on
land? Who knows, I might end up doing a bunch of other amateur radio
stuff... I know it can be an addictive hobby... lol


You'll need to learn some rules and regs, and some theory. But it's not
hard - the question pool is published; nowadays people just memorize the
pool from which the questions are taken.

But an Amateur Radio license allows you to operate Amateur Radios - no
marine or any others. That's why I say everyone in control of a radio
(including on the kayaks) would have to have a ham license (and call
sign). But we have lots of frequencies available and lots of options.

You can find more information at www.arrl.org.

Hmmm... maybe I don't understand the amateur license. The need is for
using marine band radios, not just any radios that can be found. That
is not going to change. Are you saying that an amateur license won't
allow the use of a marine band radio in the context I have been describing?


No, it won't. And FCC rules will not allow you to use marine band
radios in the way you wish.

I found a few links on the tests and they seem pretty simple. As yopu
say, there is a little memorization of regulations and some technical
stuff which isn't hard. I can't imagine I wouldn't be able to pass the
test this weekend. But it sounds like it would be of no use for this
purpose. It seems rather restrictive to me that anyone can have a
marine band radio in their boat and use it freely, but if you need to
contact your house or other shore location you need to use something
else. I'm sure talking between ships is useful, but in many cases the
need is between ship and shore. I'm just not allowed to use a marine
radio on shore... what?


Unfortunately for you, them's the rules (see my other post).

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.

==================

Please understand that a "band" (such as VHF band) is a collective term for
a large range of frequencies. The FCC assigns different frequencies (or
ranges of frequencies) to different services. The VHF "band" terminology is
generally used for the 30 - 300 Mhz range. Within this range there are
frequencies assigned for amateurs, police, fire, marine, TV, commercial FM,
and so forth. In general, these assignments do not overlap. There are VHF
frequencies assigned for amateur use (such as 144-148 Mhz). There are
different "spot" frequencies or "channels" (as opposed to ranges) assigned
for marine usage, and so forth.

Marine users must have a "type approved" radio and it must be used on the
assigned frequencies (channels). Amateurs, in the general case, do not
require type-approved radios, but they must ensure that their radios operate
in the assigned amateur frequency ranges. An amateur could, in the general
case, operate a marine-type radio in an amateur frequency range but not vice
versa.

There is some informality about the terminology. The 144-148 Mhz amateur
allocation is usually named the 2-meter band. It is a VHF band. The
police/fire/etc frequencies in the 150-160 Mhz range are often collectively
known as "VHF". There are VHF television channels (although these are going
away in favor of UHF channels).

In marine use you might hear "VHF" as opposed to "HF" (or "SSB"). HF is
High Freuqency, generally considered to be anything in the 3 - 30 MHz range.
Generally, VHF is for local (more or less line of sight) communication and
HF is for much more distant communication. There are amateur frequency
ranges in HF, such as the "80-meter band, 3.5-3.0 MHz, or the 20-meter band
at 14-14.35 Mhz. There are a variety of marine assignments in the HF range.

Using VHF is generally simple if you are in the right distance range. You
simply press the button and talk. Using HF is considerably more complex due
the way HF radio waves interact with the ionosphere.

Amateur licenses and marine licenses are completely different animals and do
not overlap in any way.

Have you thought about CB? It is inexpensive and might cover the distance
ranges you are talking about. One problem is that there are some very odd
animals that play with CB and can occupy some of the 40 available channels.
However, in less dense areas you can probably productively use one of the
higher channel numbers. The CB "band" has 40 channels around 27 MHz. This
is still "HF" but is almost "VHF". On most days, the communication is
somehwat more than line of sight -- generally more than VHF--, but not large
distances. However, when the "band" is "open" there can be international
communication and considerable interference.

Bill
W2WO

On Thu, 5 Sep 2013, rickman wrote:


But an Amateur Radio license allows you to operate Amateur Radios - no
marine or any others. That's why I say everyone in control of a radio
(including on the kayaks) would have to have a ham license (and call
sign). But we have lots of frequencies available and lots of options.

You can find more information at www.arrl.org.

Hmmm... maybe I don't understand the amateur license. The need is for using
marine band radios, not just any radios that can be found. That is not going
to change. Are you saying that an amateur license won't allow the use of a
marine band radio in the context I have been describing?

You're the one who started this by posting to an amateur radio newsgroup,
and then made it worse by adding other newsgroups in the
rec.radio.amateur.* hierarchy.

YOu say you are having problems getting licensed for the Marine band, so
people are offering information on other services that would be simply.
Amateur radio isn't "simpler" but for some uses the fact that it is
relatively wide open means it can be valuable. FRS and CB don't require
any licensing, cellphones are common nowadays, GMRS and MURS have
relatively simple license requirements.

If you "need" to stick with the Marine Band, then you need to offer up
reasons why.

Michael

"rickman" wrote in message news:l064q8$jm5$1@dont-
But a amateur license might be the best bet. Does this require my to
learn a bunch of technical stuff? That shouldn't be a problem, in theory
I'm an EE, but I've done mostly digital work and I know RF is a whole
different animal. Can you point me in the right direction toward getting
an amateur license that would let me operate a marine radio on land? Who
knows, I might end up doing a bunch of other amateur radio stuff... I know
it can be an addictive hobby... lol

--

I have not read all the thread, but the main thing for amateur license is
there any money changing hands in the process? If not and this is just a
bunch of friends, then the amateur (ham) license canbe the way to go. You
can use whatever ammount of power you want up to 1500 watts. There are some
5 watt hand held units for around $ 50 that seem to work fine. Mobile units
of around 50 watts for less than $ 200 .

You do not really have to know anything, just have the ability to memorize
the answers to around 300 questions. You can get a book (or down load it on
line) that has the exect questions and answers. The test will be a portion
of the question pool. I think that 70 % is passing. The questions have 4
multiple choice answers to choose from. I don't know the price to take the
test now, but probably under $ 15. The exams are given several times a year
in most states at differant locations.

You can go here to see some practice tests.
http://qrz.com/hamtest/