In article ,
says...
On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 11:28:31 -0400) it happened KR Williams
wrote in t:

My guess though, is that solar cells for the individual will
never become cheaper than power from the grid, since the power
company has access to the same technology and a *lot* better
financing possibilities. ...and they don't have to have the pay-
back in my lifetime.
A guess it is, given that solar cell efficiancy will eventually reach 60 %
in my estimate, then yes, buy one like that in your next lifetime if you
believe in that stuff.

Nope. That's why I'm not investing for the next lifetime. Only
fools without an ounce of economic sense do so.

In the mean time there are thoso who use them now.

Economic illiterates, yes. Ok, there are some who choose to live
off-grid for other reasons. I work with one. Fool (for choosing
to live off-grid), yes. Economic fool, no.

When the US gets a real oil problem, you can always get one at crisis price.

You're an economic illiterate too. Hasn't the concept of
competition reached that hell-hole yet? ...or are you really
that stupid?

--
Keith

"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 17:45:00 -0700, the renowned Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 00:35:15 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote:

On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:08:04 +0100) it happened
"Newsgroups"
wrote in hQjgc.160$Jc5.69@newsfe1-win:

Charging 12 V Lead -Acid batteries to 14.4 V , voltage limited by a
home
made shunt controller .
System includes a 150 Watts wind generator , to support system during
windy
(and usually sunless) periods
Now a wind generator would be cool, there are many windmils of huge size
here,
one next to my house (100m or so), a BIG one that replaced 5 smaller
ones...
It is on the coast, and it is always windy here...
How big is that thing?
JP

Have you seen the windmill "farm" west of Indio, California (on I10) ?

HUNDREDS of large windmill AC generators.

...Jim Thompson

It's an unusual place- the wind just whistles through the canyons
there and there are dust stoms. A fair number of them seem to be down
for maintenance whenever I go through. I wonder if it is really more
cost effective than burning coal.

That depends to some degree what you consider the "costs" of burning coal
are.

"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 17:45:00 -0700, the renowned Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 00:35:15 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote:

On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:08:04 +0100) it happened
"Newsgroups"
wrote in hQjgc.160$Jc5.69@newsfe1-win:

Charging 12 V Lead -Acid batteries to 14.4 V , voltage limited by a
home
made shunt controller .
System includes a 150 Watts wind generator , to support system during
windy
(and usually sunless) periods
Now a wind generator would be cool, there are many windmils of huge size
here,
one next to my house (100m or so), a BIG one that replaced 5 smaller
ones...
It is on the coast, and it is always windy here...
How big is that thing?
JP

Have you seen the windmill "farm" west of Indio, California (on I10) ?

HUNDREDS of large windmill AC generators.

...Jim Thompson

It's an unusual place- the wind just whistles through the canyons
there and there are dust stoms. A fair number of them seem to be down
for maintenance whenever I go through. I wonder if it is really more
cost effective than burning coal.

That depends to some degree what you consider the "costs" of burning coal
are.

"Jan Panteltje" wrote in message
...
On a sunny day (Sat, 17 Apr 2004 17:45:00 -0700) it happened Jim Thompson
wrote in
:

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 00:35:15 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote:

On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:08:04 +0100) it happened
"Newsgroups"
wrote in hQjgc.160$Jc5.69@newsfe1-win:

Charging 12 V Lead -Acid batteries to 14.4 V , voltage limited by a
home
made shunt controller .
System includes a 150 Watts wind generator , to support system during
windy
(and usually sunless) periods
Now a wind generator would be cool, there are many windmils of huge size
here,
one next to my house (100m or so), a BIG one that replaced 5 smaller
ones...
It is on the coast, and it is always windy here...
How big is that thing?
JP

Have you seen the windmill "farm" west of Indio, California (on I10) ?

HUNDREDS of large windmill AC generators.
Only seen pictures of it.
These look the same as the ones we have here.
There are plans to build a whole bunch out in the sea here, but I dunno
how
far that is from realization.

There are already a significant number of off-shore windmills in Denmark.
Or at least next to Denmark.

"Jan Panteltje" wrote in message
...
On a sunny day (Sat, 17 Apr 2004 17:45:00 -0700) it happened Jim Thompson
wrote in
:

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 00:35:15 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote:

On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:08:04 +0100) it happened
"Newsgroups"
wrote in hQjgc.160$Jc5.69@newsfe1-win:

Charging 12 V Lead -Acid batteries to 14.4 V , voltage limited by a
home
made shunt controller .
System includes a 150 Watts wind generator , to support system during
windy
(and usually sunless) periods
Now a wind generator would be cool, there are many windmils of huge size
here,
one next to my house (100m or so), a BIG one that replaced 5 smaller
ones...
It is on the coast, and it is always windy here...
How big is that thing?
JP

Have you seen the windmill "farm" west of Indio, California (on I10) ?

HUNDREDS of large windmill AC generators.
Only seen pictures of it.
These look the same as the ones we have here.
There are plans to build a whole bunch out in the sea here, but I dunno
how
far that is from realization.

There are already a significant number of off-shore windmills in Denmark.
Or at least next to Denmark.

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 11:47:54 -0700, the renowned "Richard Henry"
wrote:


"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 17:45:00 -0700, the renowned Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 00:35:15 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote:

On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:08:04 +0100) it happened
"Newsgroups"
wrote in hQjgc.160$Jc5.69@newsfe1-win:

Charging 12 V Lead -Acid batteries to 14.4 V , voltage limited by a
home
made shunt controller .
System includes a 150 Watts wind generator , to support system during
windy
(and usually sunless) periods
Now a wind generator would be cool, there are many windmils of huge size
here,
one next to my house (100m or so), a BIG one that replaced 5 smaller
ones...
It is on the coast, and it is always windy here...
How big is that thing?
JP

Have you seen the windmill "farm" west of Indio, California (on I10) ?

HUNDREDS of large windmill AC generators.

...Jim Thompson

It's an unusual place- the wind just whistles through the canyons
there and there are dust stoms. A fair number of them seem to be down
for maintenance whenever I go through. I wonder if it is really more
cost effective than burning coal.

That depends to some degree what you consider the "costs" of burning coal
are.

I think, other than the pollution, the costs are included in the
overall running cost (dead miners, etc. etc.). The pollution is a bit
harder to figure, but modern plants are pretty clean. I live close to
a big thermal plant and the left-wing newspapers have been running
pictures of the stacks (usually with evil lighting) saying that
"smoke" is rising blah blah. They've dug up old pictures with all 4
stacks running, and it's usually running at 25%; never more than 50%.
Of course it's mostly steam and some CO2- on a clear day you can see
nothing in the air discoloring it, just the refraction from the heat
and steam trails that rapidly dissipate. The stupid new gov't has been
making noises about closing the thermal plants *AND* the nuclear
plants- I don't know where they think the power would come from (maybe
we can buy it all and export the problem to less "responsible"
people). Bleh. Even with conservation measures and some
deindustrialization, population is growing at a healthy rate, and so
is consumption.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 11:47:54 -0700, the renowned "Richard Henry"
wrote:


"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 17:45:00 -0700, the renowned Jim Thompson
wrote:

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 00:35:15 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote:

On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:08:04 +0100) it happened
"Newsgroups"
wrote in hQjgc.160$Jc5.69@newsfe1-win:

Charging 12 V Lead -Acid batteries to 14.4 V , voltage limited by a
home
made shunt controller .
System includes a 150 Watts wind generator , to support system during
windy
(and usually sunless) periods
Now a wind generator would be cool, there are many windmils of huge size
here,
one next to my house (100m or so), a BIG one that replaced 5 smaller
ones...
It is on the coast, and it is always windy here...
How big is that thing?
JP

Have you seen the windmill "farm" west of Indio, California (on I10) ?

HUNDREDS of large windmill AC generators.

...Jim Thompson

It's an unusual place- the wind just whistles through the canyons
there and there are dust stoms. A fair number of them seem to be down
for maintenance whenever I go through. I wonder if it is really more
cost effective than burning coal.

That depends to some degree what you consider the "costs" of burning coal
are.

I think, other than the pollution, the costs are included in the
overall running cost (dead miners, etc. etc.). The pollution is a bit
harder to figure, but modern plants are pretty clean. I live close to
a big thermal plant and the left-wing newspapers have been running
pictures of the stacks (usually with evil lighting) saying that
"smoke" is rising blah blah. They've dug up old pictures with all 4
stacks running, and it's usually running at 25%; never more than 50%.
Of course it's mostly steam and some CO2- on a clear day you can see
nothing in the air discoloring it, just the refraction from the heat
and steam trails that rapidly dissipate. The stupid new gov't has been
making noises about closing the thermal plants *AND* the nuclear
plants- I don't know where they think the power would come from (maybe
we can buy it all and export the problem to less "responsible"
people). Bleh. Even with conservation measures and some
deindustrialization, population is growing at a healthy rate, and so
is consumption.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Last month I went to Palm springs for the Faire, and there was no
noticeable difference in the numbers of windmills in operation.
=====================
Having seen these machines near Palm Springs ,they seem to be rather small
and of an older design.
Modern machines are much bigger (up to 2 MW rated capacity) and more
reliable.
In the Netherlands they are now planning a number of 2MW machines offshore
,approx 8 kms off the coast placed on seabed based stuctures.
Their designers are focussing on minimum maintenance ( only once every 3
years) .

To date land based machines produce on average only 16% of their rated
capacity ,due to periods without adequate wind and to technical outage /
maintenance. Yet they seem profitable. In the Netherlands many farmers have
them on their land ,especially
in the northern provinces.

Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH

Last month I went to Palm springs for the Faire, and there was no
noticeable difference in the numbers of windmills in operation.
=====================
Having seen these machines near Palm Springs ,they seem to be rather small
and of an older design.
Modern machines are much bigger (up to 2 MW rated capacity) and more
reliable.
In the Netherlands they are now planning a number of 2MW machines offshore
,approx 8 kms off the coast placed on seabed based stuctures.
Their designers are focussing on minimum maintenance ( only once every 3
years) .

To date land based machines produce on average only 16% of their rated
capacity ,due to periods without adequate wind and to technical outage /
maintenance. Yet they seem profitable. In the Netherlands many farmers have
them on their land ,especially
in the northern provinces.

Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH

KR Williams wrote:

In article ,
says...
On a sunny day (Thu, 15 Apr 2004 05:57:18 GMT) it happened
wrote in :

....snip...

Add that in, and the cost of a $15000 system is
much worse - over 30,000 in a 25 year, 7% mortgage.

You have to take into account that the cost of a kWh from
the grid in 25 years will be a LOT higher too, if there
still is a grid during and after WW3 that is.

That's silly economics. I do not have to take into account the
cost of electricity in 25 years. I can wait. Solar cells are
becoming cheaper too. When the cost of the solar cell is less
than the cost of power from the grid I can switch, saving all of
the negative amortization inbetween, and have a *new* system in
25 years, just as you're in need of replacing yours. ;-)

My guess though, is that solar cells for the individual will
never become cheaper than power from the grid, since the power
company has access to the same technology and a *lot* better
financing possibilities. ...and they don't have to have the pay-
back in my lifetime.

They have access to the tech, BUT, they also have to maintain the
distribution system. Since my electricity has been unbundled,
roughly half of my cost per Kwh goes to the distribution co., not the
producer. Ice storms, drunk drivers, blown line fuses all cost money.
As well as the personel and associated benefits packages,
transportation costs of materials, etc. for maintaining the lines.
All this is avoided cost on home solar.

And...
www.solaraccess.com/news/story?storyid=6482

talking about a new discovery:

"A solar cell with the simplest possible physical structure could
achieve 50 percent efficiency or better, far higher than any yet
demonstrated in the laboratory."

It isn't cost effective for most of us yet, but the tipping point
is coming.

--
Jerry wa2rkn no email @ present