On Sun, 25 May 2008 21:41:06 EDT, Phil Kane
wrote:

On Sun, 25 May 2008 07:56:17 EDT, Buck
wrote:

No, D-Star is not proprietary. It is an open standard.

Not proprietary? How can I get my Yaesu to work with it?

Can your Yaesu do single sideband on 440 MHz? Same issue.

It can do all modes!

Dave Heil wrote:
Steve Bonine wrote:
wrote:

I became a ham at age 13, mostly through what I learned from ARRL
books. The big attraction was that Radio in general and Amateur Radio
in particular looked like a lot of fun to me. And for more than 40
years, it has been.

Me too. But I do think that we have increased competition these days
from other outlets for prospective hams, and other things that "look
like a lot of fun". Computers and such gadgets are a part of daily
life for young folks these days; it's only natural that they gravitate
in that direction. I suspect that the vast majority of them have not
been exposed to ham radio at all.

You have to admit that there were always things which looked like a lot
of fun. In our day it was guitars, skateboards, stereo equipment,
photography, sports and GIRLS. Not many of us were exposed to amateur
radio in terms of percentages of young people.

The difference is the level of exposure as a user. Today, every young
person is exposed to personal computers as a user, in the same way that
they are exposed to cars as a user. Most of them won't go past the
level of a user, but a few will turn into gearheads or into computer geeks.

I had an old Zenith tabletop radio with shortwave which covered 5.5 to
18 MHz. I used it initially to listen to broadcast radio. Then I
discovered the shortwave broadcasters and finally the 40 and 20m hams
using AM. Luckily for me, I heard a ham who was in our town and he lit
the fire for me.

That's my point. I, too, had access to a shortwave receiver and
followed much the same path that you did. That's much less likely to
happen today. Back then, people were exposed to radio as users. Today,
they're exposed to it via cell phones but they don't perceive it as
radio. Entering ham radio via the SWL route is very rare these days.

There were lots of young hams and young SWLs who were interested in
becoming hams. They read Pop'tronics and EI. Most of the Novices I
worked were in my age group.

Now that you mention it, I do remember working a lot of novices who were
in my age group. There weren't that many local hams who were as young
as me, but there were a lot on the air.

K8CFT administered Novice exams to a
number of junior high and high school aged boys. At one time, the
little town of Oak Hill, West Virginia (population 7,000) boasted seven
young Novices along with six or seven higher class radio amateurs. Of
those seven hams, five are still licensed and active. One dropped out
of amateur radio and one (who was active) died last year. The key was
that *we were interested*. No one can make someone spend his leisure
hours doing something in which he has no interest.

Yes, but you can only be interested in something if you know it exists.
If the option of finding out about ham radio via the SWL route has
disappeared, how do young people find out that they have the option of
spending leisure hours in ham radio?

I think that the best option to attract young folks into the hobby is to
expose them at school. Doing that requires teachers who are at least
amenable to the idea. I suppose that getting publicity into the
channels that they use could work, but I'm not sure how to do that. I'm
not even sure what channels to shoot for.

Another option is to attract older recruits. This has its own set of
issues since someone who is busy raising a family and building a career
may not have vast amounts of spare time to spend in a hobby.

But for me the bottom line is that it's important to attract people into
the hobby to replace the folks who are leaving. As the ham population
ages and declines, it becomes more and more difficult to find a critical
mass of local hams to support things like the local club, FD operations,
Skywarn, and anything that's not done on the air. This problem is
especially evident in rural areas that don't have a large population to
draw from.

73, Steve KB9X

On May 25, 5:01�pm, Steve Bonine wrote:
wrote:
I became a ham at age 13, mostly through what I learned from ARRL
books. The big attraction was that Radio in general and Amateur Radio
in particular looked like a lot of fun to me. And for more than 40
years, it has been.

..I do think that we have increased competition these days
from other outlets for prospective hams, and other things that "look
like a lot of fun". �Computers and such gadgets are a part of
daily life
for young folks these days; it's only natural that they gravitate in
that direction.

Those things are part of daily life for almost everyone (in developed
countries) today.

But amateur radio has had that sort of competition for many decades -
it's nothing new.

�I suspect that the vast majority of them have not been
exposed to ham radio at all.

IMHO, *that* is the Big Problem.

I think there is a sense that, back in the Old Days,
there were young
hams (high school and younger) all over the place.
In my experience as
a young ham (1960s-70s), however, that was
not the case at all. Ham
radio was a niche thing back then, same as now, even without
computers, cell phones, etc.

Yes, I agree. �I do remember more young hams back then,
though. �It was
mostly a hobby for older people, but I do think there were more
young hams then.

Here's one data point for you:

I graduated from high school in 1972. Middle class suburb of
Philadelphia, emphasis was on math and science. Out of about 5000
students (boys and girls in two side-by-side schools), there were
never more than a handful of hams. Less than a dozen in the four years
I was there (which covers 7 graduating classes. At any one time there
were no more than six hams in both schools.

Operating skill, QSO content and signal quality
established one's on-
air reputation, not how deep or gravelly your voice was.

This was a very important consideration for me, too. �Even for the

operation that I did on phone, by and large people treated me as an
equal, and if I demonstrated skill they recognized that skill without
regard to my age. �Even in traditional in-person interactions like

club
meetings and Field Day operations, I was treated as an equal if I could
demonstrate that I deserved to be treated that way. �Generally
speaking
the local ham community was eager to reach out and teach me if it was ob
vious that I needed teaching.

Yep. But at the same time, there had to be a willingness to learn.

I can't think of another hobby where I could have gained
access to such
a community of people who were often peers of my parents.

And on a first-name basis, too. A bank president was "Joe", a
respected MD was "Bill", a highly skilled professional radio operator
was "Lou".

To speculate wildly, it might be that one
cause for curmudgeon-ness is
the fear of what advancements/accomplishments
the young folks might
actually make.

I think you give this segment of our hobby too much credit grin.

There are always going to be folks who simply have no social
skills or prefer not to deal with "kids".

That's true, but it's not what I was getting at.

What I have seen happen more than a few times is the case of a young
amateur rising through the ranks very quickly, passing older and more-
experienced amateurs on the way. Not just in license class (although
the "incentive licensing" changes helped that) but in things like DXCC
countries, code speed, contest scores, operating skills, new
technology in use, etc.

While most hams are glad to see such things, I suspect that there were
at least a few who did not like being bested at *anything* by
young(er) folks. Particularly when it's in the area of skills.

The core value of Amateur Radio is "radio for its
own sake". Some
folks get that, most do not. The task is to spread that word to all,
publicize the wide variety of things hams do, welcome
those who are
interested, and help them with what *they* find interesting.

Spreading the word is more important these days than ever
before. �We
can't expect people to become interested in something that they
don't know exists.

Again, that's the Big Problem.

Oddly enough, a lot of the young hams
I have met are fascinated by
Morse Code, simply because it is unique and
outside their experience.
That doesn't mean it's the only thing to show them, or that all new
hams must start out one and only one way. But it does
mean we cannot
assume young hams are only interested in "new" things.

But CW is new to them. �It's different. �Unique.

Yes. it's new to them. But they rapidly recognize that it's not a new
technology at all. Doesn't matter; it's the uniqueness that makes it
interesting.

Uniqueness is a big deal to the young people I know. I clearly recall
seeing the first Harry Potter book appear - and seeing it being read,
in hardcover, by local kids as young as 2nd and 3rd grade.
"Conventional wisdom" says that "kids today" would not read books, let
alone buy them (or pester their parents to buy them), yet here they
were doing just that. Because the stories are unique.

Ham radio is never going to appeal to everyone. �
Never has; never will.

Of course.

The majority of people, young and old, tend to go with
what has the interest of the mainstream. �Hams have
always been somewhat "different",
and the hobby has always appealed to a segment
of the population that
wasn't interested in doing whatever the fashionable
thing might be at the moment.

I think it's much simpler than that. Some people like the idea of
"radio for its own sake", others can't see the point.

That applies to almost any voluntary activity. For example, most
golfers will never play at anything like a professional level. The
game takes a considerable amount of time and expense, is dependent on
season and weather, and even when you play really well only a few will
ever know.

Yet lots of folks play, because it's not only fun but a challenge.

Same for sport fishing, target shooting, running marathons, and a
variety of arts and crafts done for pleasure. In all cases the journey
is as important (if not more important) than the destination.

1) Presentations at the middle-school and even elementary-
school level - including the parents.

Getting the teachers involved would be ideal. �Teachers are an
incredibly important influence on their students.

Agreed! But that requires a teacher who is a ham.

Scouting is perhaps the #1 source of new young hams
today, btw. Particularly boys. Scouting groups are
always looking for responsible adult leaders.

2) Identify local hams who are available to be Elmers. (I
suspect that
some of the curmudgeon-ness is due to the fear of being
expected to be an Elmer).

This is indeed key. �It's what made the hobby so important for me
as a younger ham.

3) Subtle helps to prospective young hams, such as a ride to a club
meeting, Field Day or hamfest, the loan of a rig, the gift of a
box of
"old wire" that happens to contain all the parts needed to build
an antenna, etc.

And the help to actually put it together.

Sort of. A key factor is knowing just how little help to give.

4) Inclusion and acceptance. This means being
considered an equal, or
at least a potential equal. For example, put new hams
or prospective
hams to work with FD setup, logging, etc. (That means
knowing how to
do things the right way, though!)

I do think this is the most important aspect. �I'm not suggesting
that
we coddle people simply because they are young, or fawn over
them. �But
we should give them the opportunity to contribute as equals, with
appropriate encouragement and assistance. �Breaking into
the "old boys'
network" can be impossible if the old boys don't make an effort to be in
clusive.

Agreed - and that includes being willing to delegate authority.

I will never forget being allowed to run the 40 meter CW setup
overnight on Field Day back in 1970. I was 16, a ham for three years,
and there I was with a Drake 4-line and good antenna on a hot contest
band. You can bet I learned a lot that night!

73 de Jim, N2EY

wrote:

1) Presentations at the middle-school and even elementary-
school level - including the parents.
Getting the teachers involved would be ideal. Teachers are an
incredibly important influence on their students.

Agreed! But that requires a teacher who is a ham.

No, it doesn't. It only requires a teacher who is open to allowing
someone to help him/her, and a person willing to help.

73, Steve KB9X

In article ,
Derry Hamilton wrote:
I'd prefer to make one myself, except I'd have to buy an AMBE chip from
DVSI.

I'd like to make a lot of things for myself but I have to buy patented
chips from the license holders. AM radio isn't a proprietary protocol,
but a lot of the parts used to make an AM radio are patented. You buy
them only from people the licensee has approved.

Mark Kramer wrote:
In article ,
Derry Hamilton wrote:
I'd prefer to make one myself, except I'd have to buy an AMBE chip from
DVSI.

I'd like to make a lot of things for myself but I have to buy patented
chips from the license holders. AM radio isn't a proprietary protocol,
but a lot of the parts used to make an AM radio are patented. You buy
them only from people the licensee has approved.

Hi Mark,

Could you elaborate on the relationship of electronic parts to
proprietary codecs for radios?


I think there is a little confusion here regarding proprietary aspects
of electronics and radio concepts.

Any patents held on electronic components are patents to safeguard the
makers methods of making them - not the concept of the parts. The
resistors, diodes and other parts are basic electronic building blocks,
and anyone can make those.

I could make a nicely functioning radio out of pencils, microscope
slides, aluminum foil, scrap wire, an old oatmeal box, and If I really
wanted to get involved, I could construct my own vacuum tubes and design
and build a superheterodyne radio.

As long as I built them according to my own methods, and did not
infringe on the methods used by a manufacturer, not one patent, nor
intellectual property would be violated.

Another way of looking at this, is that I can go to the local Radio
Shack, and buy a handful of components to build say, a blinking light.
Maybe an IC-type 555, an op amp or two, and their needed peripheral parts.

My finished device is not owned by the companies that made the parts. If
it is my original design, I can claim copyright on it.

Now on to the intellectual property of the D-Star codec.

D-Star uses this Codec, and it is proprietary.

If you do not use the Codec, you will not be able to use the D-Star
repeater.

If you can use the repeater, you have the Codec.


This differs in many important ways from normal repeaters, and normal
Codecs in use by Amateurs.

Examples of non proprietary Codecs are(randomoly picked except for D-Star:

SPEEX- lossy but good ro IRLP

FLAC - lossless


Proprietary codecs:

AMBE

The D Star Codec.

The ramifications of using each are important.


Amateur Radio has traditionally used open source whenever possible,
because we also have a tradition of working on and improving those
things that we work with. Examples are the PSK31 and RTTY modes.
Amateurs are continually providing new and improved software for those.
There are even multi PSK channel data transmission softwares out there.
A lot of PSK signals fit within the bandwidth taken up by one SSB voice
transmission.

My experimenting with a particular PSK engine is usually based on going
to the web, and downloading it. Most applications are free, but even
those that have to be purchased, the whole sum is going to the developer.

Hypothetically, say a group of hams came up with a digital repeater
using the SPEEX Codec. (SPEEX is used for illustration purposes only, it
might not be the best choice)

Most of us would be able to either build or purchase an interface that
would allow us to interface our radios to the computer, as software
would be easily available to run them.

Hand helds would be easily adaptable, as there is no specific need for a
computer, just the necessary software and hardware to turn an audio
stream into a digital stream, in the same manner as cell phones do (they
use a different codec, but the principle is the same.

I would note that there has not been a huge amount of work done by
Amateurs in the VHF and up region as related to Digital voice. A lot of
this can be ascribed to the fact that an SSB channel is already pretty
narrow, so there aren't orders of magnitude gains to be made in
conserving bandwidth. Another issue is that with digital signals,
multipath can be a severe problem. Anyone who does doppler direction
finding (I do) can tell you that at VHF and up, Multipath is a major
problem. What might be a little whoosh or garble on FM without upsetting
readability can sometimes just keep the digital system nice and quiet.

Now let us turn to our D-Star equipped repeater.

What will communicate with it:

Icom D-Star Equipment
Kenwood ( a rebranded Icom, sold only in Japan
Moetronix Can hear and talk D-Star on the internet.

That is a pretty short list. One for all practical purposes You buy the
equipment and you use it.

Do you know what the price for the AMBE Chip is in quantities of one? It
may not even be realistic for an amateur to attempt to build one of
their own.

Mike

On Tue, 27 May 2008 19:38:13 EDT, Michael Coslo wrote:

Now let us turn to our D-Star equipped repeater.

What will communicate with it:

Icom D-Star Equipment
Kenwood ( a rebranded Icom, sold only in Japan
Moetronix Can hear and talk D-Star on the internet.

That is a pretty short list. One for all practical purposes You buy the
equipment and you use it.

The "leadership" of our ARES/RACES group are D-Star fanatics. They
claim, though, that the ICOM equipment does have an FM mode to pass FM
signals through. I have no idea how that works (dual detection
channels?).

As I understood it, D-Star is a set of open protocols generated by
individuals in the Japan Radio Club (or whatever the formal name is)
and ICOM was the only one so far to implement them in hardware. If
someone else wants to implement them, a good IP lawyer can steer them
in the direction of non-infringement. A good (non-ham) friend of mine
is the IP attorney for Nikon USA and he is always checking to see that
the newest stuff proposed does not infringe patents by Canon and
others, yet digital photography uses open standards that everyone
implements in their own way.

One of our club members is the author of D-Rats (that's Star spelled
backwards), a set of open-source applications for functionality of
D-Star radios. There's nothing proprietary about what he is doing or
its applications, and he comes out with updates weekly. I'm not a
software person so I can't comment on hooks and APIs and such.

Hey, I would be a D-Star "nut" also were the radio fairy to deliver
four dual-band mobiles and an HT on my doorstep one night. We'll
leave the light on for ya'.
--

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net

Phil Kane wrote:
On Tue, 27 May 2008 19:38:13 EDT, Michael Coslo wrote:

Now let us turn to our D-Star equipped repeater.

What will communicate with it:

Icom D-Star Equipment
Kenwood ( a rebranded Icom, sold only in Japan
Moetronix Can hear and talk D-Star on the internet.

That is a pretty short list. One for all practical purposes You buy the
equipment and you use it.

The "leadership" of our ARES/RACES group are D-Star fanatics. They
claim, though, that the ICOM equipment does have an FM mode to pass FM
signals through. I have no idea how that works (dual detection
channels?).

I've looked to see if such a thing (fm voice) exists within D-Star.
Could these folks steer us to some documentation? Here are the RF
modules I've found:

http://homepage.mac.com/rrucker/d-st...er_modules.pdf

Do you know of any coordination or frequency placement issues involved
with opening a presumptive FM side?

You know that whole D-Star "repeater" is not a repeater issue, so
frequencies are opened up for it in repeater crowded areas. Those
frequencies would not be proper repeater frequencies for an FM repeater.

Do you know a reference for that action Phil? I've looked a bit on the
FCC site, but haven't found it yet. I think it was in 2006.

As I understood it, D-Star is a set of open protocols generated by
individuals in the Japan Radio Club (or whatever the formal name is)
and ICOM was the only one so far to implement them in hardware. If
someone else wants to implement them, a good IP lawyer can steer them
in the direction of non-infringement.

I would really hate to have to hire a lawyer to consult on my
homebrewing... ;^)


A good (non-ham) friend of mine
is the IP attorney for Nikon USA and he is always checking to see that
the newest stuff proposed does not infringe patents by Canon and
others, yet digital photography uses open standards that everyone
implements in their own way.

One of our club members is the author of D-Rats (that's Star spelled
backwards), a set of open-source applications for functionality of
D-Star radios. There's nothing proprietary about what he is doing or
its applications, and he comes out with updates weekly. I'm not a
software person so I can't comment on hooks and APIs and such.


Does he have a website? I'd like to take a look.

Hey, I would be a D-Star "nut" also were the radio fairy to deliver
four dual-band mobiles and an HT on my doorstep one night. We'll
leave the light on for ya'.

I'd be interested in experimenting with it. We just don't have a
digital repeater for a long way around here, and the costs of putting
one up just don't make it happen. It kind of reminds me of the old
credit problem for young people.

Need a loan? You need a good credit rating
Need a good credit rating, you need to get a loan.. 8^)

Like you said, if the radio fairys were to drop a system off... 8^)

In article ,
Michael Coslo wrote:
As long as I built them according to my own methods, and did not
infringe on the methods used by a manufacturer, not one patent, nor
intellectual property would be violated.

Yes, by definition, if you don't infringe, you haven't infringed. You can
build just about anything for personal use and not infringe.

D-Star uses this Codec, and it is proprietary.

The digital voice part of D-Star uses a codec. The rest does not. The
protocol is open and published. Certain parts used to implement the
protocol are patented and sold only by a single source. When 741s were
new, they were expensive and sole-sourced.

If you do not use the Codec, you will not be able to use the D-Star
repeater.

I'm not sure you are correct about that.

This differs in many important ways from normal repeaters, and normal
Codecs in use by Amateurs.

If you don't have an FM radio, you cannot use an FM repeater.

Just as you can build your own copies of patented things for personal
use, as you mentioned earlier, you can build your own copy of an AMBE
codec for personal use. TI won't tell me how to build a 741 IC; AMBE is
under no compulsion to tell you how to build their codec. If you buy one
and reverse engineer it, that's fine -- for personal use.

Amateur Radio has traditionally used open source whenever possible,

Airmail and Winlink 2000 are two very large obvious counterexamples. The
firmware in a KPC3+ another. The firmware in the repeater controller
I had to reverse engineer to make usable, ditto. It is common for ham
applications to run only on Windows -- the epitome of closed source. The
control and programming software from Kenwood for the D700 is -- closed
source windows only. Look around at all the Motorola gear in use in ham
radio. I've yet to see an open-source version of ANY of the programs
required to program a Motorola.

Yes, there is open source for many things. No, it's not always used. The
"tradition" is limited.

Now let us turn to our D-Star equipped repeater.

What will communicate with it:

Icom D-Star Equipment
Kenwood ( a rebranded Icom, sold only in Japan
Moetronix Can hear and talk D-Star on the internet.

That is a pretty short list.

A very incomplete list, I believe. And, at an early stage of development,
not unexpected.

One for all practical purposes You buy the equipment and you use it.

For all practical purposes, 2m and 440 are "you buy the equipment and
you use it". I don't know many people building their own HTs, and even
those that did used the Heathkits. For most commodity ham uses, homebrew
is rare.

Do you know what the price for the AMBE Chip is in quantities of one?

About $200.

It
may not even be realistic for an amateur to attempt to build one of
their own.

The ID-1, last I looked, is $1000. About. The IC-V92AD is about $600.
An SDR is on the order of $1000 and up. A lot of bleeding edge components
are a bit spendy. Ham radio experimentation is a spendy hobby.

On May 26, 9:11�pm, Steve Bonine wrote:
wrote:
1) Presentations at the middle-school and even elementary-
school level - including the parents.
Getting the teachers involved would be ideal. Teachers are an
incredibly important influence on their students.

Agreed! But that requires a teacher who is a ham.

No, it doesn't. �It only requires a teacher who is open to allowin
g
someone to help him/her, and a person willing to help.

In theory, yes, the teacher doesn't have to be a ham.

But in practice, I think a teacher who was that interested in having
ham radio in the school would *be* a ham, if for no other reason than
it makes the whole thing easier.

--

A lot depends, too, on what level of involvement ham radio is to be in
the school. For example, in increasing order of involvement:

1) Books, magazines and other info on ham radio could be provided to
the school libraries.

2) Local amateurs could give a presentation/demonstration at an
assembly, student activity day, etc. This would simply say "Here's
what ham radio is, what hams do, what it takes to become one.." etc.

3) Ham radio could be introduced as an extra-curricular activity, same
as computer clubs, robotics clubs, etc. (The local high school has a
computer club that focuses on rehabbing older computers for use by
students who can't afford their own, and a robotics club that designs
and builds machines for competition).

4) Ham radio could be part of the curriculum, integrated into the
math, technology, communications and geography parts.

IMHO the bell-the-cat question at all levels is: Who's going to do the
work, and pay the costs?

73 de Jim, N2EY