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Old June 5th 08, 04:07 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
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On Wed, 28 May 2008 09:33:52 EDT, Michael Coslo wrote:

The "leadership" of our ARES/RACES group are D-Star fanatics. They
claim, though, that the ICOM equipment does have an FM mode to pass FM
signals through. I have no idea how that works (dual detection
channels?).


I've looked to see if such a thing (fm voice) exists within D-Star.
Could these folks steer us to some documentation? Here are the RF
modules I've found:

The FM voice is not part of the D-Star specs. It is built into the
ICOM hardware. The IC-2820 dual-band dual-channel mobile comes
"D-Star ready" for $600 and the add-on D-Star module is another $200+.

I'd just as soon wait for the prices to come down.

Do you know of any coordination or frequency placement issues involved
with opening a presumptive FM side?


No, the local coordinator handles that as any other frequency
coordination matter.

You know that whole D-Star "repeater" is not a repeater issue, so
frequencies are opened up for it in repeater crowded areas. Those
frequencies would not be proper repeater frequencies for an FM repeater.

Do you know a reference for that action Phil? I've looked a bit on the
FCC site, but haven't found it yet. I think it was in 2006.


According to what I've heard, that's a "hot button" topic, but Bill
Cross of the FCC (an active ham) said at Dayton that he applies the
"duck test" to the D-Star repeaters (making them eligible for
automatic control).
--

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest

Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net

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Old June 5th 08, 06:08 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
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In article ,
Phil Kane wrote:

You know that whole D-Star "repeater" is not a repeater issue, so
frequencies are opened up for it in repeater crowded areas. Those
frequencies would not be proper repeater frequencies for an FM repeater.

Do you know a reference for that action Phil? I've looked a bit on the
FCC site, but haven't found it yet. I think it was in 2006.


According to what I've heard, that's a "hot button" topic, but Bill
Cross of the FCC (an active ham) said at Dayton that he applies the
"duck test" to the D-Star repeaters (making them eligible for
automatic control).


That makes good sense to me.

As I understand it, some D-Star advocates are claiming that a D-Star
repeater isn't a repeater, because the regs state that a repeater
retransmits the incoming signal "instantaneously", and the packet
delay in a D-Star system makes it not-instantaneous... that it's
fundamentally a store-and-forward system, more like a BBS (albeit with
a very short storage time).

That same line of thought (if valid) would seem to apply to a fairly
high percentage of ham-radio analog repeaters on the air today. It's
quite common to have a digital or bucket-brigate delay device in the
receiver audio path, with the analog audio being presented to the
repeater controller and transmitter some time (up to tens of
milliseconds) after it was actually demodulated by the receiver. This
can help reduce the chopping-off of the first part of the first
syllable, and allows the transmitter to be un-keyed at the end of the
transmission before the beginning of the squelch-tail noise burst gets
out of the delay pipeline.

I can't recall hearing anyone argue that an FM analog repeater with an
analog bucket-brigade (or even ADPCM digital) audio delay circuit was
magically "not a repeater" because the audio retransmission was not
"instantaneous". If the D-Star not-a-repeater proponents were to win
their case, it might be a *very* pyrrhic victory, as analog repeater
owners might also qualify to move into non-repeater frequency
segments. Sauce for the goose...

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

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Old June 5th 08, 06:31 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
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Phil Kane wrote:
On Wed, 28 May 2008 09:33:52 EDT, Michael Coslo wrote:

The "leadership" of our ARES/RACES group are D-Star fanatics. They
claim, though, that the ICOM equipment does have an FM mode to pass FM
signals through. I have no idea how that works (dual detection
channels?).

I've looked to see if such a thing (fm voice) exists within D-Star.
Could these folks steer us to some documentation? Here are the RF
modules I've found:

The FM voice is not part of the D-Star specs. It is built into the
ICOM hardware. The IC-2820 dual-band dual-channel mobile comes
"D-Star ready" for $600 and the add-on D-Star module is another $200+.


Right. My thoughts on the whole thing are that with the Bizarre
"repeater that isn't a repeater" argument they couldn't run FM analog
because it would turn the "repeater that isn't a repeater into a
repeater that is a repeater."

Now repeat that ten times real fast! ;^)

- 73 de Mike N3LI -

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Old June 5th 08, 06:33 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
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Dave Platt wrote:
In article ,
Phil Kane wrote:



According to what I've heard, that's a "hot button" topic, but Bill
Cross of the FCC (an active ham) said at Dayton that he applies the
"duck test" to the D-Star repeaters (making them eligible for
automatic control).


That makes good sense to me.

As I understand it, some D-Star advocates are claiming that a D-Star
repeater isn't a repeater, because the regs state that a repeater
retransmits the incoming signal "instantaneously", and the packet
delay in a D-Star system makes it not-instantaneous... that it's
fundamentally a store-and-forward system, more like a BBS (albeit with
a very short storage time).


One B too many IMO! ;^)



That same line of thought (if valid) would seem to apply to a fairly
high percentage of ham-radio analog repeaters on the air today. It's
quite common to have a digital or bucket-brigate delay device in the
receiver audio path, with the analog audio being presented to the
repeater controller and transmitter some time (up to tens of
milliseconds) after it was actually demodulated by the receiver. This
can help reduce the chopping-off of the first part of the first
syllable, and allows the transmitter to be un-keyed at the end of the
transmission before the beginning of the squelch-tail noise burst gets
out of the delay pipeline.



Our repeater system uses several polling receivers at different sites.
(6 or 7 IIRC) The recievers transmit their received signals to the main
site. The main repeater site determines which is the strongest signal,
and sends that one through to the main repeater transmitter.

As you can imagine, there is some delay there too. Maybe 250 milliseconds.


I can't recall hearing anyone argue that an FM analog repeater with an
analog bucket-brigade (or even ADPCM digital) audio delay circuit was
magically "not a repeater" because the audio retransmission was not
"instantaneous". If the D-Star not-a-repeater proponents were to win
their case, it might be a *very* pyrrhic victory, as analog repeater
owners might also qualify to move into non-repeater frequency
segments. Sauce for the goose...


One of the biggest problems putting up a repeater these days is that
many areas are just full. There's no room at the Inn. And the area in
which a D-Star is likely to do best is in those crowded areas. So they
tried to do an end run around the issue. Without a lot of thought.

Seems like we have a nice patch of bandwidth between 2 meters and 440
that is a bit underutilized?

- 73 de Mike N3LI -

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Old June 6th 08, 12:53 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
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"Michael Coslo" wrote in message
...


One of the biggest problems putting up a repeater these days is that many
areas are just full. There's no room at the Inn. And the area in which a
D-Star is likely to do best is in those crowded areas. .


Depends on the definition of "full" or the definition of "crowded".

I live in a metropolitan area in which there are no VHF pairs available for
assignment. By some definition that might mean that the spectrum is "full" or
"crowded".

But you could shoot off a cannon on 2M most of the time and it wouldn't hit a
soul. Nobody. Not a signal to be heard. Some days you can scan every channel
in sequence for hours on end with not a peep heard. Then go to each QRG in
sequence and transmit "K0HB LISTENING". Nobody home.

I travel a lot, to large cities like Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Louis, Tucson,
Kansas City, Indianapolis, Detroit, OKC, DFW, Tucson, Phoenix, Denver, El
Paso/Las Cruces. It's the same everywhere. Just a scattering of signals on the
bands, but EVERY PAIR spoken for.

The NFCC needs to quit being the lapdog of the repeater owners, and do some
spectrum management housecleaning.

Before Bill Cross does.





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Old June 6th 08, 01:12 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
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In article "KØHB" writes:

But you could shoot off a cannon on 2M most of the time and it wouldn't hit a
soul. Nobody. Not a signal to be heard. Some days you can scan every channel
in sequence for hours on end with not a peep heard. Then go to each QRG in
sequence and transmit "K0HB LISTENING". Nobody home.


Well, "listening" generally is taken by an increasing number of folks as
meaning you are listening, not that you are soliciting a call. If I hear it,
and I also have some reason to talk to you, I may call. Of course, if I had
something to call you about, the cellphone in my pocket probably already took
care of that.

If you want to talk to someone, call them, or call cq.


I travel a lot, to large cities like Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Louis, Tucson,
Kansas City, Indianapolis, Detroit, OKC, DFW, Tucson, Phoenix, Denver, El
Paso/Las Cruces. It's the same everywhere. Just a scattering of signals on the
bands, but EVERY PAIR spoken for.


True. 10 - 15 years ago, they were busy. Now --- silent. It seems that way
everywhere.

I know that for me, I now have a small car with no good place for a rig, and
park in places where one might not want to leave one in the car. At home, being
married sort of cuts in to sitting in front of the radio all evening.

I don't know what took the interest away for everyone else. However, with
nobody on to talk to, I am less interested in solving the problems in the car
to get on, so if others are in the same boat, we all contribute to the
silence.

Alan
wa6azp

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Old June 6th 08, 05:33 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
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KØHB wrote:
"Michael Coslo" wrote in message
...

One of the biggest problems putting up a repeater these days is that many
areas are just full. There's no room at the Inn. And the area in which a
D-Star is likely to do best is in those crowded areas. .


Depends on the definition of "full" or the definition of "crowded".

I live in a metropolitan area in which there are no VHF pairs available for
assignment. By some definition that might mean that the spectrum is "full" or
"crowded".

But you could shoot off a cannon on 2M most of the time and it wouldn't hit a
soul. Nobody. Not a signal to be heard. Some days you can scan every channel
in sequence for hours on end with not a peep heard. Then go to each QRG in
sequence and transmit "K0HB LISTENING". Nobody home.



It is possible that I live in an anomalous area, but in Central PA, the
repeaters are pretty busy. And State College is the smallest
metropolitan area in the country. We have 5 repeaters, although one is
down for maintenance right now. Altoona to the southwest has a number of
repeaters that have traffic on them also.

naive mode on:

One of the most interesting aspects of Amateur radio is that we kind of
expect someone to be waiting there to talk to us. While we can't control
what happens in other areas, we can control our own.

If we want to generate traffic on the repeaters, the simplest way is to
generate some traffic on them. Get a friend and talk on the thing. Next
thing you know, others will join you. If enough places do that, there
will be plenty of traffic.

naive mode off:

That is what we did in our area. Traffic was down, and the obligatory
bemoaning of the problem was up.

We just had people get on the air and yak it up. Could be coincidence,
but more and more people joined the party, and a few years later the
repeater is in constant use.

This is one that Hams themselves have to bootstrap.


The NFCC needs to quit being the lapdog of the repeater owners, and do some
spectrum management housecleaning.


Interesting concept, but how to determine use or lack of use? (sounds
easy, but in practice it isn't.

- 73 de Mike N3LI -

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Old June 6th 08, 05:33 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
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Alan wrote:
"KØHB" writes:


I travel a lot, to large cities like Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Louis, Tu

cson,
Kansas City, Indianapolis, Detroit, OKC, DFW, Tucson, Phoenix, Denver,

El
Paso/Las Cruces. It's the same everywhere. Just a scattering of sign

als on the
bands, but EVERY PAIR spoken for.


True. 10 - 15 years ago, they were busy. Now --- silent. It seems

that way
everywhere.


It's certainly that way in rural Minnesota. There are repeaters in many
of the small towns, and they're alive in the sense of being technically
there, but they're dead in the sense of anyone using them on a regular
basis. Sometimes there's a regular group who gets together in the
morning, but for our local repeater even that custom has faded away.

We lost our UHF repeater almost a year ago when the elevator it was on
was destroyed by lightning. [For you city slickers, the word "elevator"
out here in the sticks is used to describe a large structure in which
grain is stored.] That repeater is still silent. A new location was
secured, and funding for it was provided by the local emergency
management agency, but the antenna still hasn't been erected.

So I have to wonder, in metro areas where all the slots are "full", how
many of those repeaters actually exist and would respond if presented
with a correctly-toned signal on their published input frequency.
Perhaps more important, how many of them are used regularly? It might
actually make more sense to shut down several repeaters that don't have
a critical mass of users and move those small groups to the remaining
repeaters so that there was actually someone there to talk to. Better
to have two or three active repeaters in a metro area than a dozen dead
ones.

I don't know what took the interest away for everyone else. However,

with
nobody on to talk to, I am less interested in solving the problems in t

he car
to get on, so if others are in the same boat, we all contribute to the
silence.


It's a chicken and egg problem. I know that I'm contributing to the
problem; my 2-meter equipment consists of an HT, and I've considered
that I need to buy a "real" 2-meter rig and put up an antenna . . . but
it's difficult for me to justify the time and expense to do so when
there's no activity.

73, Steve KB9X

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Old June 6th 08, 08:27 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
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In article ,
Steve Bonine wrote:
Better
to have two or three active repeaters in a metro area than a dozen dead
ones.


Until there is an emergency and those two or three repeaters aren't
sufficient to support the emergency services operations going on.

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In article ,
KØHB wrote:
Then go to each QRG


Please speak english.

in sequence and transmit "K0HB LISTENING". Nobody home.


When I hear someone say "listening", I think, "that's nice, they're
listening". I'm listening, too. If I don't know them or have some reason
to talk to them, I don't call them.

The NFCC needs to quit being the lapdog of the repeater owners, and do some
spectrum management housecleaning.


So now it is also the responsibility of the repeater owner to protect
his investment in equipment by seeking people to use his repeater all
the time? Otherwise, it will be "housecleaned" out from under him?

Do we have enough people to use all the possible repeaters all the
time? If not, then "housecleaning" to open spectrum up for other people
to install repeaters will just result in more empty repeaters. If you say
you just want to houseclean out all the unused repeaters and replace them
with nothing, what value is the housecleaning? You'll remove valuable
resources and replace them with nothing. The only "gain" (in the former
case) will be that new people who want the status of owning a repeater
will own repeaters that are empty. No gain at all in the latter.

I'll point out the opposite opinion: a repeater that is filled with
chit-chat all the time is unlistenable. It just drones on and on and
becomes background noise. Couple that with people who think they need
to be cute and entertaining on the air and it's no longer just noise,
it's painful. We have a "lunch bunch" on a local system every day. The
net control seems to think a sing-song delivery and "creative phonetics"
for everyone checking in is mandatory. I know some people like it. I
find it difficult to understand what he's saying most of the time. Is
he saying something important, or is he just spouting words with the
right first letters for the callsign he just heard? I turn it off.



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