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#41
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Fifth pillar
On Wed, 28 May 2008 09:33:52 EDT, Michael Coslo wrote:
The "leadership" of our ARES/RACES group are D-Star fanatics. They claim, though, that the ICOM equipment does have an FM mode to pass FM signals through. I have no idea how that works (dual detection channels?). I've looked to see if such a thing (fm voice) exists within D-Star. Could these folks steer us to some documentation? Here are the RF modules I've found: The FM voice is not part of the D-Star specs. It is built into the ICOM hardware. The IC-2820 dual-band dual-channel mobile comes "D-Star ready" for $600 and the add-on D-Star module is another $200+. I'd just as soon wait for the prices to come down. Do you know of any coordination or frequency placement issues involved with opening a presumptive FM side? No, the local coordinator handles that as any other frequency coordination matter. You know that whole D-Star "repeater" is not a repeater issue, so frequencies are opened up for it in repeater crowded areas. Those frequencies would not be proper repeater frequencies for an FM repeater. Do you know a reference for that action Phil? I've looked a bit on the FCC site, but haven't found it yet. I think it was in 2006. According to what I've heard, that's a "hot button" topic, but Bill Cross of the FCC (an active ham) said at Dayton that he applies the "duck test" to the D-Star repeaters (making them eligible for automatic control). -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net |
#42
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Fifth pillar
In article ,
Phil Kane wrote: You know that whole D-Star "repeater" is not a repeater issue, so frequencies are opened up for it in repeater crowded areas. Those frequencies would not be proper repeater frequencies for an FM repeater. Do you know a reference for that action Phil? I've looked a bit on the FCC site, but haven't found it yet. I think it was in 2006. According to what I've heard, that's a "hot button" topic, but Bill Cross of the FCC (an active ham) said at Dayton that he applies the "duck test" to the D-Star repeaters (making them eligible for automatic control). That makes good sense to me. As I understand it, some D-Star advocates are claiming that a D-Star repeater isn't a repeater, because the regs state that a repeater retransmits the incoming signal "instantaneously", and the packet delay in a D-Star system makes it not-instantaneous... that it's fundamentally a store-and-forward system, more like a BBS (albeit with a very short storage time). That same line of thought (if valid) would seem to apply to a fairly high percentage of ham-radio analog repeaters on the air today. It's quite common to have a digital or bucket-brigate delay device in the receiver audio path, with the analog audio being presented to the repeater controller and transmitter some time (up to tens of milliseconds) after it was actually demodulated by the receiver. This can help reduce the chopping-off of the first part of the first syllable, and allows the transmitter to be un-keyed at the end of the transmission before the beginning of the squelch-tail noise burst gets out of the delay pipeline. I can't recall hearing anyone argue that an FM analog repeater with an analog bucket-brigade (or even ADPCM digital) audio delay circuit was magically "not a repeater" because the audio retransmission was not "instantaneous". If the D-Star not-a-repeater proponents were to win their case, it might be a *very* pyrrhic victory, as analog repeater owners might also qualify to move into non-repeater frequency segments. Sauce for the goose... -- Dave Platt AE6EO Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! |
#43
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Fifth pillar
Phil Kane wrote:
On Wed, 28 May 2008 09:33:52 EDT, Michael Coslo wrote: The "leadership" of our ARES/RACES group are D-Star fanatics. They claim, though, that the ICOM equipment does have an FM mode to pass FM signals through. I have no idea how that works (dual detection channels?). I've looked to see if such a thing (fm voice) exists within D-Star. Could these folks steer us to some documentation? Here are the RF modules I've found: The FM voice is not part of the D-Star specs. It is built into the ICOM hardware. The IC-2820 dual-band dual-channel mobile comes "D-Star ready" for $600 and the add-on D-Star module is another $200+. Right. My thoughts on the whole thing are that with the Bizarre "repeater that isn't a repeater" argument they couldn't run FM analog because it would turn the "repeater that isn't a repeater into a repeater that is a repeater." Now repeat that ten times real fast! ;^) - 73 de Mike N3LI - |
#44
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Fifth pillar
Dave Platt wrote:
In article , Phil Kane wrote: According to what I've heard, that's a "hot button" topic, but Bill Cross of the FCC (an active ham) said at Dayton that he applies the "duck test" to the D-Star repeaters (making them eligible for automatic control). That makes good sense to me. As I understand it, some D-Star advocates are claiming that a D-Star repeater isn't a repeater, because the regs state that a repeater retransmits the incoming signal "instantaneously", and the packet delay in a D-Star system makes it not-instantaneous... that it's fundamentally a store-and-forward system, more like a BBS (albeit with a very short storage time). One B too many IMO! ;^) That same line of thought (if valid) would seem to apply to a fairly high percentage of ham-radio analog repeaters on the air today. It's quite common to have a digital or bucket-brigate delay device in the receiver audio path, with the analog audio being presented to the repeater controller and transmitter some time (up to tens of milliseconds) after it was actually demodulated by the receiver. This can help reduce the chopping-off of the first part of the first syllable, and allows the transmitter to be un-keyed at the end of the transmission before the beginning of the squelch-tail noise burst gets out of the delay pipeline. Our repeater system uses several polling receivers at different sites. (6 or 7 IIRC) The recievers transmit their received signals to the main site. The main repeater site determines which is the strongest signal, and sends that one through to the main repeater transmitter. As you can imagine, there is some delay there too. Maybe 250 milliseconds. I can't recall hearing anyone argue that an FM analog repeater with an analog bucket-brigade (or even ADPCM digital) audio delay circuit was magically "not a repeater" because the audio retransmission was not "instantaneous". If the D-Star not-a-repeater proponents were to win their case, it might be a *very* pyrrhic victory, as analog repeater owners might also qualify to move into non-repeater frequency segments. Sauce for the goose... One of the biggest problems putting up a repeater these days is that many areas are just full. There's no room at the Inn. And the area in which a D-Star is likely to do best is in those crowded areas. So they tried to do an end run around the issue. Without a lot of thought. Seems like we have a nice patch of bandwidth between 2 meters and 440 that is a bit underutilized? - 73 de Mike N3LI - |
#45
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Fifth pillar
"Michael Coslo" wrote in message
... One of the biggest problems putting up a repeater these days is that many areas are just full. There's no room at the Inn. And the area in which a D-Star is likely to do best is in those crowded areas. . Depends on the definition of "full" or the definition of "crowded". I live in a metropolitan area in which there are no VHF pairs available for assignment. By some definition that might mean that the spectrum is "full" or "crowded". But you could shoot off a cannon on 2M most of the time and it wouldn't hit a soul. Nobody. Not a signal to be heard. Some days you can scan every channel in sequence for hours on end with not a peep heard. Then go to each QRG in sequence and transmit "K0HB LISTENING". Nobody home. I travel a lot, to large cities like Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Louis, Tucson, Kansas City, Indianapolis, Detroit, OKC, DFW, Tucson, Phoenix, Denver, El Paso/Las Cruces. It's the same everywhere. Just a scattering of signals on the bands, but EVERY PAIR spoken for. The NFCC needs to quit being the lapdog of the repeater owners, and do some spectrum management housecleaning. Before Bill Cross does. |
#46
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Fifth pillar
In article "KØHB" writes:
But you could shoot off a cannon on 2M most of the time and it wouldn't hit a soul. Nobody. Not a signal to be heard. Some days you can scan every channel in sequence for hours on end with not a peep heard. Then go to each QRG in sequence and transmit "K0HB LISTENING". Nobody home. Well, "listening" generally is taken by an increasing number of folks as meaning you are listening, not that you are soliciting a call. If I hear it, and I also have some reason to talk to you, I may call. Of course, if I had something to call you about, the cellphone in my pocket probably already took care of that. If you want to talk to someone, call them, or call cq. I travel a lot, to large cities like Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Louis, Tucson, Kansas City, Indianapolis, Detroit, OKC, DFW, Tucson, Phoenix, Denver, El Paso/Las Cruces. It's the same everywhere. Just a scattering of signals on the bands, but EVERY PAIR spoken for. True. 10 - 15 years ago, they were busy. Now --- silent. It seems that way everywhere. I know that for me, I now have a small car with no good place for a rig, and park in places where one might not want to leave one in the car. At home, being married sort of cuts in to sitting in front of the radio all evening. I don't know what took the interest away for everyone else. However, with nobody on to talk to, I am less interested in solving the problems in the car to get on, so if others are in the same boat, we all contribute to the silence. Alan wa6azp |
#47
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Fifth pillar
KØHB wrote:
"Michael Coslo" wrote in message ... One of the biggest problems putting up a repeater these days is that many areas are just full. There's no room at the Inn. And the area in which a D-Star is likely to do best is in those crowded areas. . Depends on the definition of "full" or the definition of "crowded". I live in a metropolitan area in which there are no VHF pairs available for assignment. By some definition that might mean that the spectrum is "full" or "crowded". But you could shoot off a cannon on 2M most of the time and it wouldn't hit a soul. Nobody. Not a signal to be heard. Some days you can scan every channel in sequence for hours on end with not a peep heard. Then go to each QRG in sequence and transmit "K0HB LISTENING". Nobody home. It is possible that I live in an anomalous area, but in Central PA, the repeaters are pretty busy. And State College is the smallest metropolitan area in the country. We have 5 repeaters, although one is down for maintenance right now. Altoona to the southwest has a number of repeaters that have traffic on them also. naive mode on: One of the most interesting aspects of Amateur radio is that we kind of expect someone to be waiting there to talk to us. While we can't control what happens in other areas, we can control our own. If we want to generate traffic on the repeaters, the simplest way is to generate some traffic on them. Get a friend and talk on the thing. Next thing you know, others will join you. If enough places do that, there will be plenty of traffic. naive mode off: That is what we did in our area. Traffic was down, and the obligatory bemoaning of the problem was up. We just had people get on the air and yak it up. Could be coincidence, but more and more people joined the party, and a few years later the repeater is in constant use. This is one that Hams themselves have to bootstrap. The NFCC needs to quit being the lapdog of the repeater owners, and do some spectrum management housecleaning. Interesting concept, but how to determine use or lack of use? (sounds easy, but in practice it isn't. - 73 de Mike N3LI - |
#48
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Activity on 2 meters
Alan wrote:
"KØHB" writes: I travel a lot, to large cities like Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Louis, Tu cson, Kansas City, Indianapolis, Detroit, OKC, DFW, Tucson, Phoenix, Denver, El Paso/Las Cruces. It's the same everywhere. Just a scattering of sign als on the bands, but EVERY PAIR spoken for. True. 10 - 15 years ago, they were busy. Now --- silent. It seems that way everywhere. It's certainly that way in rural Minnesota. There are repeaters in many of the small towns, and they're alive in the sense of being technically there, but they're dead in the sense of anyone using them on a regular basis. Sometimes there's a regular group who gets together in the morning, but for our local repeater even that custom has faded away. We lost our UHF repeater almost a year ago when the elevator it was on was destroyed by lightning. [For you city slickers, the word "elevator" out here in the sticks is used to describe a large structure in which grain is stored.] That repeater is still silent. A new location was secured, and funding for it was provided by the local emergency management agency, but the antenna still hasn't been erected. So I have to wonder, in metro areas where all the slots are "full", how many of those repeaters actually exist and would respond if presented with a correctly-toned signal on their published input frequency. Perhaps more important, how many of them are used regularly? It might actually make more sense to shut down several repeaters that don't have a critical mass of users and move those small groups to the remaining repeaters so that there was actually someone there to talk to. Better to have two or three active repeaters in a metro area than a dozen dead ones. I don't know what took the interest away for everyone else. However, with nobody on to talk to, I am less interested in solving the problems in t he car to get on, so if others are in the same boat, we all contribute to the silence. It's a chicken and egg problem. I know that I'm contributing to the problem; my 2-meter equipment consists of an HT, and I've considered that I need to buy a "real" 2-meter rig and put up an antenna . . . but it's difficult for me to justify the time and expense to do so when there's no activity. 73, Steve KB9X |
#49
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Activity on 2 meters
In article ,
Steve Bonine wrote: Better to have two or three active repeaters in a metro area than a dozen dead ones. Until there is an emergency and those two or three repeaters aren't sufficient to support the emergency services operations going on. |
#50
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Fifth pillar
In article ,
KØHB wrote: Then go to each QRG Please speak english. in sequence and transmit "K0HB LISTENING". Nobody home. When I hear someone say "listening", I think, "that's nice, they're listening". I'm listening, too. If I don't know them or have some reason to talk to them, I don't call them. The NFCC needs to quit being the lapdog of the repeater owners, and do some spectrum management housecleaning. So now it is also the responsibility of the repeater owner to protect his investment in equipment by seeking people to use his repeater all the time? Otherwise, it will be "housecleaned" out from under him? Do we have enough people to use all the possible repeaters all the time? If not, then "housecleaning" to open spectrum up for other people to install repeaters will just result in more empty repeaters. If you say you just want to houseclean out all the unused repeaters and replace them with nothing, what value is the housecleaning? You'll remove valuable resources and replace them with nothing. The only "gain" (in the former case) will be that new people who want the status of owning a repeater will own repeaters that are empty. No gain at all in the latter. I'll point out the opposite opinion: a repeater that is filled with chit-chat all the time is unlistenable. It just drones on and on and becomes background noise. Couple that with people who think they need to be cute and entertaining on the air and it's no longer just noise, it's painful. We have a "lunch bunch" on a local system every day. The net control seems to think a sing-song delivery and "creative phonetics" for everyone checking in is mandatory. I know some people like it. I find it difficult to understand what he's saying most of the time. Is he saying something important, or is he just spouting words with the right first letters for the callsign he just heard? I turn it off. |
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