Steve Bonine wrote in
m:

KØHB wrote:
"Michael Coslo" wrote in message
...

The idea isn't to forge some new technology. Too
many people get caught up in that.

One of the bedrock notions of Amateur Radio is for licensees to "get
ca
ught up
in" the advancement of the radio art.

In my opinion, too FEW are "caught up in that".

Chat rooms for teenie-boppers isn't mentioned in "Basis and purpose"

Spread-spectrum, digital modes, moonbounce . . . none of these are
mentioned in "Basis and purpose".

I don't see any conflict between "chat rooms for teenie-boppers" and
"forge new technology". In fact, I see a lot of similarity between
"chat rooms for teenie-boppers" and the groups that have been
squatting on the same frequency on 75 meters for 40 years and complain
of interference, even though there's lots of unused newly-allocated
space.

Some of those younger hams contribute a lot to our hobby, and I wish
we could figure out ways to attract more of them. Maybe a good start
would be to recognize their potential and quit using derogatory terms
to
describe them.

Hear Hear, Steve!

I would respectfully suggest that we as hams give a little thought as to
whether or not we actually want young folk in the hobby.

This is beyond the simple statements such as "we need more young people
in the hobby".

Probelem as I see it is that while we might sayt that, alll too many of
us have an implied addidition to that of "As long as they are exactly as
we are.

And the problem is, "we" is an interesting one word.

I know many hams who are surrounded with like minded people, other Hams
who share similar interests. They have an outlook in which they think
everyone is like them, or at least everyone should be. Those who do not
share their outlook are inferior, or at best misinformed.

Strangely enough, many of these hams were licensed at a very young age.

What happened? I don't really know, but I suspect that there were some
old timers who just couldn't stand those young hams of yesteryear, too.
I'll bet they had names to call them.

related story

When I was a wee lad, after a lot of bugging, My parents bought me a CB
Walkie-talkie one Christmas. The other one of a set was bought by my
cousin's parents. About 0600 Christmas morning, I went outside and
called "anybody listening?". Bam, my cousin called back from a couple
miles away. I was hooked.

Fast forward to about 6 months later. A friend and I tried to join a CB
club. Wow, what a mistake! After a little talk among the members, we
were told we couldn't join, and they would appreciate it if we left
immediately. That left an impression. To this day, I have a problem with
superior people. But I bet they were pretty happy they got rid of us.

Fast forward to today.

Kids are a little different, but are still kids. They do some different
things than we do. One of those things is they way they interact with
each other.

If we declare them jerks, then we've lost them. If we even don't say it,
yet have that attitude, they'll sense it and find something else to do.
Then we've lost them.

I've been kind of surprised by the negative reaction to my texting HT.
This device is not aimed at "us", it is aimed at a new generation for
whom texting is as natural as talking to another.

Maybe today's hams don't want young people to get licenses. That's okay,
that is a valid opinion.

But I would respectfully suggest that getting the young folk involved
will take a different tactic than the way many of us became inolved. I
think we should give that some consideration.

I'm bowing out of this thread now.

- 73 de Mike N3LI -

On Thu, 22 May 2008 19:50:32 EDT, (Mark Kramer)
wrote:

PSK31 has a huge advantage in that it is
pretty cheap, and not proprietary. D-Star is decidedly not cheap, and is
quite proprietary.

No, D-Star is not proprietary. It is an open standard.


Not proprietary? How can I get my Yaesu to work with it?

On May 24, 10:58�pm, Mike Coslo wrote:
Steve Bonine wrote innews:WcydnXiZuvZVl6XVnZ2dnUVZ_ofinZ2
:

K�HB wrote:
"Michael Coslo" wrote in message
...

Some of those younger hams contribute a lot to our hobby, and I wish
we could figure out ways to attract more of
them. �Maybe a good start
would be to recognize their potential and quit using
derogatory terms to describe them.

Hear Hear, Steve!

I second that!

I know a few "young people", and IMHO "teenie-bopper" is a derogatory
term for them.

I would respectfully suggest that we as hams give
a little thought as to
whether or not we actually want young folk in the hobby.

This is beyond the simple statements such as "we need
more young people in the hobby".

Agreed. And we should be honest in recognizing that there is a small
but vocal minority who do *not* want young people to be
hams. Some years back, I saw a proposal to FCC to create a minimum-age
requirement of 14 years for any class of US amateur radio license.

Probelem as I see it is that while we might sayt that,
alll too many of
us have an implied addidition to that of "As long as
they are exactly as we are.

And the problem is, "we" is an interesting one word.

I know many hams who are surrounded with like minded
people, other Hams
who share similar interests. They have an outlook in
which they think
everyone is like them, or at least everyone should be.
Those who do not
share their outlook are inferior, or at best misinformed.

Of course. That's one facet of human nature.

OTOH, Amateur Radio does have standards, traditions,
rules, etc. I don't think it's a good thing to simply accept/promote
any and all "new" things, regardless of what effects they have, simply
because they're new, and to reject the "old" simply because it's old.

That said, we have so much latitude in Part 97 that I think there's
lots of room for 99% of what folks want to do.

Strangely enough, many of these hams were licensed at a very
young age.

What happened? I don't really know, but I suspect that there
were some
old timers who just couldn't stand those young hams of
yesteryear, too.
I'll bet they had names to call them.

That's nothing new. "No kids, no lids, no space cadets" dates back at
least a half-century.

Kids are a little different, but are still kids. They do some different
things than we do. One of those things is they way they interact
with each other.

If we declare them jerks, then we've lost them. If we even don't
say it,
yet have that attitude, they'll sense it and find something else to do.
Then we've lost them.

I became a ham at age 13, mostly through what I learned from ARRL
books. The big attraction was that Radio in general and Amateur Radio
in particular looked like a lot of fun to me. And for more than 40
years, it has been.

I think there is a sense that, back in the Old Days, there were young
hams (high school and younger) all over the place. In my experience as
a young ham (1960s-70s), however, that was not the case at all. Ham
radio was a niche thing back then, same as now, even without
computers, cell phones, etc.

There were a few curmudgeons back then who had no time for young hams.
But they were only a few. And a considerable number of young hams
dropped out because equipment was expensive, antennas were huge
compared to their houses, and/or they got interested in other things.

One big "hook", for me was that except for those few curmudgeons I was
not treated as an inferior - particularly on the air. A big part of
this was due to the mode I used - Morse Code. With Morse Code (and
text modes), no one knows your age or gender unless you tell them.
Operating skill, QSO content and signal quality established one's on-
air reputation, not how deep or gravelly your voice was.

To speculate wildly, it might be that one cause for curmudgeon-ness is
the fear of what advancements/accomplishments the young folks might
actually make.

I've been kind of surprised by the negative reaction to
my texting HT.
This device is not aimed at "us", it is aimed at a new
generation for
whom texting is as natural as talking to another.

I think you may have missed the point, Mike.

I don't think the way to attract young people is to come up with some
new gadget in an effort to attract them. Particularly if it does
something that's already available, such as texting by cellphone.

That said, I think a texting HT is a great idea. But for its own sake;
not as a way to "sell" ham radio to young people.

The core value of Amateur Radio is "radio for its own sake". Some
folks get that, most do not. The task is to spread that word to all,
publicize the wide variety of things hams do, welcome those who are
interested, and help them with what *they* find interesting.

Oddly enough, a lot of the young hams I have met are fascinated by
Morse Code, simply because it is unique and outside their experience.
That doesn't mean it's the only thing to show them, or that all new
hams must start out one and only one way. But it does mean we cannot
assume young hams are only interested in "new" things.

Maybe today's hams don't want young people to get
licenses. That's okay, that is a valid opinion.

I'd say that in a few cases there is no "maybe" about it. But only a
few.

I say that such an opinion runs counter to everything Amateur Radio
stands for.

But I would respectfully suggest that getting the young folk involved
will take a different tactic than the way many of us became
inolved.

Some ideas:

1) Presentations at the middle-school and even elementary-school level
- including the parents.

2) Identify local hams who are available to be Elmers. (I suspect that
some of the curmudgeon-ness is due to the fear of being expected to be
an Elmer).

3) Subtle helps to prospective young hams, such as a ride to a club
meeting, Field Day or hamfest, the loan of a rig, the gift of a box of
"old wire" that happens to contain all the parts needed to build an
antenna, etc.

4) Inclusion and acceptance. This means being considered an equal, or
at least a potential equal. For example, put new hams or prospective
hams to work with FD setup, logging, etc. (That means knowing how to
do things the right way, though!)

73 de Jim, N2EY

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
6...


I would respectfully suggest that we as hams give a little thought as to
whether or not we actually want young folk in the hobby.


Here's my reaction to that.

I want more new people in the Amateur Radio service with new ideas.

Their birthdate is of no particular interest to me.

73, de Hans, K0HB

wrote:

I became a ham at age 13, mostly through what I learned from ARRL
books. The big attraction was that Radio in general and Amateur Radio
in particular looked like a lot of fun to me. And for more than 40
years, it has been.

Me too. But I do think that we have increased competition these days
from other outlets for prospective hams, and other things that "look
like a lot of fun". Computers and such gadgets are a part of daily life
for young folks these days; it's only natural that they gravitate in
that direction. I suspect that the vast majority of them have not been
exposed to ham radio at all.

I had a good buddy when I was that age who was interested in radio and
electronics, and peer pressure being what it is, I followed his lead.
Those people are fewer these days.

I think there is a sense that, back in the Old Days, there were young
hams (high school and younger) all over the place. In my experience as
a young ham (1960s-70s), however, that was not the case at all. Ham
radio was a niche thing back then, same as now, even without
computers, cell phones, etc.

Yes, I agree. I do remember more young hams back then, though. It was
mostly a hobby for older people, but I do think there were more young
hams then.

There were a few curmudgeons back then who had no time for young hams.
But they were only a few. And a considerable number of young hams
dropped out because equipment was expensive, antennas were huge
compared to their houses, and/or they got interested in other things.

A considerable number of old hams dropped out for similar reasons,
sometimes providing a source of equipment for the new folks.

One big "hook", for me was that except for those few curmudgeons I was
not treated as an inferior - particularly on the air. A big part of
this was due to the mode I used - Morse Code. With Morse Code (and
text modes), no one knows your age or gender unless you tell them.
Operating skill, QSO content and signal quality established one's on-
air reputation, not how deep or gravelly your voice was.

This was a very important consideration for me, too. Even for the
operation that I did on phone, by and large people treated me as an
equal, and if I demonstrated skill they recognized that skill without
regard to my age. Even in traditional in-person interactions like club
meetings and Field Day operations, I was treated as an equal if I could
demonstrate that I deserved to be treated that way. Generally speaking
the local ham community was eager to reach out and teach me if it was
obvious that I needed teaching.

I can't think of another hobby where I could have gained access to such
a community of people who were often peers of my parents.

To speculate wildly, it might be that one cause for curmudgeon-ness is
the fear of what advancements/accomplishments the young folks might
actually make.

I think you give this segment of our hobby too much credit grin.

There are always going to be folks who simply have no social skills or
prefer not to deal with "kids". There will be people who enjoy building
or experimenting, but they have no desire to interact with other humans.
That's their prerogative.

It's a shame when they make newcomers feel unwelcome, but it's going to
happen in any group. Other members in the group must compensate.

The core value of Amateur Radio is "radio for its own sake". Some
folks get that, most do not. The task is to spread that word to all,
publicize the wide variety of things hams do, welcome those who are
interested, and help them with what *they* find interesting.

Spreading the word is more important these days than ever before. We
can't expect people to become interested in something that they don't
know exists.

Oddly enough, a lot of the young hams I have met are fascinated by
Morse Code, simply because it is unique and outside their experience.
That doesn't mean it's the only thing to show them, or that all new
hams must start out one and only one way. But it does mean we cannot
assume young hams are only interested in "new" things.

But CW is new to them. It's different. Unique.

Ham radio is never going to appeal to everyone. Never has; never will.
The majority of people, young and old, tend to go with what has the
interest of the mainstream. Hams have always been somewhat "different",
and the hobby has always appealed to a segment of the population that
wasn't interested in doing whatever the fashionable thing might be at
the moment.

Some ideas:

1) Presentations at the middle-school and even elementary-school level
- including the parents.

Getting the teachers involved would be ideal. Teachers are an
incredibly important influence on their students.

2) Identify local hams who are available to be Elmers. (I suspect that
some of the curmudgeon-ness is due to the fear of being expected to be
an Elmer).

This is indeed key. It's what made the hobby so important for me as a
younger ham.

3) Subtle helps to prospective young hams, such as a ride to a club
meeting, Field Day or hamfest, the loan of a rig, the gift of a box of
"old wire" that happens to contain all the parts needed to build an
antenna, etc.

And the help to actually put it together.

4) Inclusion and acceptance. This means being considered an equal, or
at least a potential equal. For example, put new hams or prospective
hams to work with FD setup, logging, etc. (That means knowing how to
do things the right way, though!)

I do think this is the most important aspect. I'm not suggesting that
we coddle people simply because they are young, or fawn over them. But
we should give them the opportunity to contribute as equals, with
appropriate encouragement and assistance. Breaking into the "old boys'
network" can be impossible if the old boys don't make an effort to be
inclusive.

73, Steve KB9X

"Steve Bonine" wrote in message
m...

Spread-spectrum, digital modes, moonbounce . . . none
of these are mentioned in "Basis and purpose".

Of course they are, Steve, in §97.1(b).

In fact, I see a lot of similarity between "chat rooms for teenie-boppers"
and the groups that have been squatting on the same frequency on 75 meters
for 40 years and complain of interference....

I agree, Steve, they sound very similar to me also.

73, de Hans, K0HB
Proud Sponsor of the Amateur Blue Electric Smoke

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
6...

I know many hams who are surrounded with like minded people, other Hams
who share similar interests. They have an outlook in which they think
everyone is like them, or at least everyone should be. Those who do not
share their outlook are inferior, or at best misinformed.


What's interesting to me, is the "vintage" of those "elitists". With a few
exceptions they are usually not "old timers" or "newbies" but rather those
licensed in the 70's through about 1988 or so. These are the ones who posture
about "purity of the ham race" and look down their nose at any ham who "isn't
like them". They are, by and large, products of the incentive licensing system
with it's fragmentation of the hobby into exclusive ghettos, reeking of "status"
and "rank" and "I can beep faster than you can beep".

When I got into this hobby, you got no special call sign, no special status, no
special band segments, the callbook didn't show your class, and nobody could
poke around the QRZ.COM website to check your "status". All of us, ALL OF
US, exuberantly played in the ether as equals, and nobody gave a rip if you
were a Conditional, General, Advanced, or Extra. You were a ham - PERIOD! I
think that's what makes us old-timers more accepting of those who "don't act
just like us".

73, de Hans, K0HB

On Sun, 25 May 2008 07:56:17 EDT, Buck
wrote:

No, D-Star is not proprietary. It is an open standard.

Not proprietary? How can I get my Yaesu to work with it?

Can your Yaesu do single sideband on 440 MHz? Same issue.

Convince Motorola - who now owns Yaesu - to make an adapter. Up to
now, no one has made and sold such things except Icom. It's not like
Pactor III which is in fact proprietary and no one can make adapters
except SGS, the patent-holder.
--

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net

Steve Bonine wrote:
wrote:

I became a ham at age 13, mostly through what I learned from ARRL
books. The big attraction was that Radio in general and Amateur Radio
in particular looked like a lot of fun to me. And for more than 40
years, it has been.

Me too. But I do think that we have increased competition these days
from other outlets for prospective hams, and other things that "look
like a lot of fun". Computers and such gadgets are a part of daily life
for young folks these days; it's only natural that they gravitate in
that direction. I suspect that the vast majority of them have not been
exposed to ham radio at all.

You have to admit that there were always things which looked like a lot
of fun. In our day it was guitars, skateboards, stereo equipment,
photography, sports and GIRLS. Not many of us were exposed to amateur
radio in terms of percentages of young people.

I had a good buddy when I was that age who was interested in radio and
electronics, and peer pressure being what it is, I followed his lead.
Those people are fewer these days.

I had an old Zenith tabletop radio with shortwave which covered 5.5 to
18 MHz. I used it initially to listen to broadcast radio. Then I
discovered the shortwave broadcasters and finally the 40 and 20m hams
using AM. Luckily for me, I heard a ham who was in our town and he lit
the fire for me.

I think there is a sense that, back in the Old Days, there were young
hams (high school and younger) all over the place. In my experience as
a young ham (1960s-70s), however, that was not the case at all. Ham
radio was a niche thing back then, same as now, even without
computers, cell phones, etc.

Yes, I agree. I do remember more young hams back then, though. It was
mostly a hobby for older people, but I do think there were more young
hams then.

There were lots of young hams and young SWLs who were interested in
becoming hams. They read Pop'tronics and EI. Most of the Novices I
worked were in my age group. K8CFT administered Novice exams to a
number of junior high and high school aged boys. At one time, the
little town of Oak Hill, West Virginia (population 7,000) boasted seven
young Novices along with six or seven higher class radio amateurs. Of
those seven hams, five are still licensed and active. One dropped out
of amateur radio and one (who was active) died last year. The key was
that *we were interested*. No one can make someone spend his leisure
hours doing something in which he has no interest.

There were a few curmudgeons back then who had no time for young hams.
But they were only a few. And a considerable number of young hams
dropped out because equipment was expensive, antennas were huge
compared to their houses, and/or they got interested in other things.

A considerable number of old hams dropped out for similar reasons,
sometimes providing a source of equipment for the new folks.

Quite a number of those who were teenage hams dropped out because of
their interest in girls or cars or because they went off to college and
had no room for antennas and rigs or no time due to studying. Many of
them returned to amateur radio. Many got married and started families
and returned to ham radio. Most never left amateur radio but their
activity varied.

One big "hook", for me was that except for those few curmudgeons I was
not treated as an inferior - particularly on the air. A big part of
this was due to the mode I used - Morse Code. With Morse Code (and
text modes), no one knows your age or gender unless you tell them.
Operating skill, QSO content and signal quality established one's on-
air reputation, not how deep or gravelly your voice was.

This was a very important consideration for me, too. Even for the
operation that I did on phone, by and large people treated me as an
equal, and if I demonstrated skill they recognized that skill without
regard to my age. Even in traditional in-person interactions like club
meetings and Field Day operations, I was treated as an equal if I could
demonstrate that I deserved to be treated that way. Generally speaking
the local ham community was eager to reach out and teach me if it was
obvious that I needed teaching.

In my first few years there was no real ham community in my area. I
depended upon the support and largess of a number of individuals. A
move to Miami in 1966 exposed me to amateur radio clubs--some of them
quite large. I can't think of many areas where a young person can be
treated as an equal by a banker, an attorney, a doctor, the fellow who
runs the local water company or the man who operates his own gas station.

I can't think of another hobby where I could have gained access to such
a community of people who were often peers of my parents.

Exactly.

To speculate wildly, it might be that one cause for curmudgeon-ness is
the fear of what advancements/accomplishments the young folks might
actually make.

I think you give this segment of our hobby too much credit grin.

You never know when you might have a young Bill Gates visiting your
amateur radio club.

There are always going to be folks who simply have no social skills or
prefer not to deal with "kids". There will be people who enjoy building
or experimenting, but they have no desire to interact with other humans.
That's their prerogative.

Thankfully, most of them aren't hams. Ham radio is all about
interaction with other humans. I've met a few reclusive or squirrelly
or curmudgeonly radio amateurs over the years, but their number is small.

It's a shame when they make newcomers feel unwelcome, but it's going to
happen in any group. Other members in the group must compensate.

I think that in a club situation the other members see it happening and
do step in to balance things.

The core value of Amateur Radio is "radio for its own sake". Some
folks get that, most do not. The task is to spread that word to all,
publicize the wide variety of things hams do, welcome those who are
interested, and help them with what *they* find interesting.

Spreading the word is more important these days than ever before. We
can't expect people to become interested in something that they don't
know exists.

That's what I liked about the Jay Leno texting versus Morse piece of a
couple of years back. It gave exposure to amateur radio in a fun way.

Oddly enough, a lot of the young hams I have met are fascinated by
Morse Code, simply because it is unique and outside their experience.
That doesn't mean it's the only thing to show them, or that all new
hams must start out one and only one way. But it does mean we cannot
assume young hams are only interested in "new" things.

But CW is new to them. It's different. Unique.

You've got a point.

Ham radio is never going to appeal to everyone. Never has; never will.
The majority of people, young and old, tend to go with what has the
interest of the mainstream. Hams have always been somewhat "different",
and the hobby has always appealed to a segment of the population that
wasn't interested in doing whatever the fashionable thing might be at
the moment.

When I was licensed, I was living in a remote West Virginia mountain
town. Long distance telephone calls were expensive. We received three
TV stations only via cable. Listening to Bruce Bradley on WABC or Dick
Biondi on WLS meant contact with the rest of the world. Books brought
the world to my door and amateur radio meant that I could use a rather
primitive radio station in my bedroom to contact another fellow
operating from his basement in France, an outbuilding in Russia or a
from a stucco house in Chile.

Some ideas:

1) Presentations at the middle-school and even elementary-school level
- including the parents.

Getting the teachers involved would be ideal. Teachers are an
incredibly important influence on their students.

Think back: Some kids do everything the teacher tells them. Some kids
do everything except what the teacher tells them. I've had very good
teachers and I've had dreadful teachers.

2) Identify local hams who are available to be Elmers. (I suspect that
some of the curmudgeon-ness is due to the fear of being expected to be
an Elmer).

This is indeed key. It's what made the hobby so important for me as a
younger ham.

I'll assist any young person who wants to become a ham--as long as they
don't call me an "Elmer".

3) Subtle helps to prospective young hams, such as a ride to a club
meeting, Field Day or hamfest, the loan of a rig, the gift of a box of
"old wire" that happens to contain all the parts needed to build an
antenna, etc.

And the help to actually put it together.

....and the patience to demonstrate proper operation.

4) Inclusion and acceptance. This means being considered an equal, or
at least a potential equal. For example, put new hams or prospective
hams to work with FD setup, logging, etc. (That means knowing how to
do things the right way, though!)

I do think this is the most important aspect. I'm not suggesting that
we coddle people simply because they are young, or fawn over them. But
we should give them the opportunity to contribute as equals, with
appropriate encouragement and assistance. Breaking into the "old boys'
network" can be impossible if the old boys don't make an effort to be
inclusive.

I think that most do make an effort to be inclusive and to show a
newcomer the ropes. Some of it has to do with the old boys. Much has
to do with the attitude of the newcomer.

Dave K8MN

On 2008-05-26, Phil Kane wrote:
On Sun, 25 May 2008 07:56:17 EDT, Buck
wrote:

No, D-Star is not proprietary. It is an open standard.

Not proprietary? How can I get my Yaesu to work with it?

Can your Yaesu do single sideband on 440 MHz? Same issue.

Yes, just fine thanks.

Convince Motorola - who now owns Yaesu - to make an adapter. Up to
now, no one has made and sold such things except Icom. It's not like
Pactor III which is in fact proprietary and no one can make adapters
except SGS, the patent-holder.

I'd prefer to make one myself, except I'd have to buy an AMBE chip from
DVSI. DVSI, being the patent holders, are the only ones who can make
them (without paying 6-7 figures for the license, and even then only in
hardware). And that seems to me to make it just as proprietary as
Pactor III.


73 de GM4FH
Alexander Hamilton