Even if the area distribution lines are buried, the wires come up
to (usually pad-mounted above ground) transformers and the
BPL signal will permeate all the wiring in your (and your
neighbors') house(s) ...

Underground distribution will help (some) but it doesn't actually
solve the problem.

Right now, the emissions I heard in the trial areas were weaker in areas of
underground distribution. However, the losses are higher, so the utility would
have to install its digital repeaters more often along the underground lines.
It is a safe assumption that the industry that is asking the FCC for higher
emissions limits will increase the power so that underground wiring is at those
limits, too. We need to stay focused on what the rules would permit -- 30 uV/m
at 30 m -- rather than individual implementations that may be below the limits
in some cases.

Right now, the companies are probably using "stock" equipment for these
marketing trials. When it goes live, you can bet they will develop higher
powered systems as the most economical way to deploy in underground-wiring
areas.

73,
Ed Hare, W1RFI

In article ,
(W1RFI) writes:

Even if the area distribution lines are buried, the wires come up
to (usually pad-mounted above ground) transformers and the
BPL signal will permeate all the wiring in your (and your
neighbors') house(s) ...

Underground distribution will help (some) but it doesn't actually
solve the problem.

Right now, the emissions I heard in the trial areas were weaker in areas of
underground distribution.

That's to be expected if you stayed on the street. If you drove up to a house,
the racket might be a lot more.

The real killer test would be to have a "typical" amateur station in a
neighborhood served by underground utilities carrying BPL. Say, a 2 story frame
house on a half-acre or so, with a G5RV or dipole at 50 feet strung over the
the house.

Wonder how much BPL garbage that setup would pick up?

However, the losses are higher, so the utility
would
have to install its digital repeaters more often along the underground lines.
It is a safe assumption that the industry that is asking the FCC for higher
emissions limits will increase the power so that underground wiring is at
those
limits, too. We need to stay focused on what the rules would permit -- 30
uV/m
at 30 m -- rather than individual implementations that may be below the
limits in some cases.

A question arises - 30 m from what? If every piece of house wiring has the BPL
signals on it, in many locations you cannot get 30 meters away.

Right now, the companies are probably using "stock" equipment for these
marketing trials. When it goes live, you can bet they will develop higher
powered systems as the most economical way to deploy in underground-wiring
areas.

Is there stock equipment for BPL yet? Or could they be using prototypes?

73 es tnx for all the hard work de Jim, N2EY

I still owe ya that lobstah, Ed.

Wonder how much BPL garbage that setup would pick up?

My guess is about S7 at 100 feet spacing between houses, on frequencies that
BPL was using. That is assuming they didn't crank up the power to meet Part 15
limits so they could go farther and/or have more immunity to noise.

A question arises - 30 m from what? If every piece of house wiring has the
BPL
signals on it, in many locations you cannot get 30 meters away.

Correct. The limit is for 30 meters distance. There are cases where it can't
be measured there, and the FCC allows measurements to be made at other
distances, and extrapolated to 30 meters. But here's the kicker -- they allow
the extrapolation at a 40log(distance ratio), unlike virtually every other
country in the world. That translates to an inverse-to-the-fourth power ratio.
Think any of the Part 15 guys make measurements at 3 meters that COULD be made
at 30 meters, just to gain that extra 20 dB?

Is there stock equipment for BPL yet? Or could they be using prototypes?

At this point, PPL is going commercial in the Allentown area. I have offered
several times to show them exactly what they are getting themselves into, but
their BPL engineer does not answer my email.

That is kinda' odd, because if I were about to invest millions of dollars and a
national organization came along and told me that there was a major problem
with it, then offered to drive 200 miles to show me, I think I would want to
hear what they had to say and would find an hour's time.

Any PPL shareholders here? :-)

73,
Ed Hare, W1RFI

At this point, PPL is going commercial in the Allentown area. I have offered
several times to show them exactly what they are getting themselves into, but
their BPL engineer does not answer my email.

What makes you think they would waste there time dealing with the Enemy



Any PPL shareholders here? :-)

73,
Ed Hare, W1RFI

Me for sure, and I do have alot invested. What you guys need to do is come
with some Technical Whizzard Stuff to deal with this. I mean come on, you got
all those New No-Code Technical Whizzards to pull from. If you cant think of
any, try Karl, or NCI, Im sure they have the technical knowledge to combat
this.

W1RFI wrote:

Wonder how much BPL garbage that setup would pick up?


My guess is about S7 at 100 feet spacing between houses, on frequencies that
BPL was using. That is assuming they didn't crank up the power to meet Part 15
limits so they could go farther and/or have more immunity to noise.


A question arises - 30 m from what? If every piece of house wiring has the
BPL
signals on it, in many locations you cannot get 30 meters away.


Correct. The limit is for 30 meters distance. There are cases where it can't
be measured there, and the FCC allows measurements to be made at other
distances, and extrapolated to 30 meters. But here's the kicker -- they allow
the extrapolation at a 40log(distance ratio), unlike virtually every other
country in the world. That translates to an inverse-to-the-fourth power ratio.
Think any of the Part 15 guys make measurements at 3 meters that COULD be made
at 30 meters, just to gain that extra 20 dB?


Is there stock equipment for BPL yet? Or could they be using prototypes?


At this point, PPL is going commercial in the Allentown area. I have offered
several times to show them exactly what they are getting themselves into, but
their BPL engineer does not answer my email.

That is kinda' odd, because if I were about to invest millions of dollars and a
national organization came along and told me that there was a major problem
with it, then offered to drive 200 miles to show me, I think I would want to
hear what they had to say and would find an hour's time.

Any PPL shareholders here? :-)

73,
Ed Hare, W1RFI

Has anyone addressed the security issues with BPL? If BPL radiates from
the powerlines, what is to keep some savy hacker from receiving those
signals and with a little bit of software engineering they could read
your email, get your passwords and see everything you do on the
internet. I remember back in my days in the computer industry, long
before the internet, one of the big defense contractors did this very
thing. They discovered that enough signal radiated from the coaxial
cable between the main frame and dumb terminals they could pick the
signals up some distance outside the building and see everything going
on on every terminal. Should be even easier with the amount of radiating
that BPL will do.