"Kim W5TIT" wrote:

I don't know about you, but I sure don't want to be
paying the price of your philosophy noted above.
Oh. And how dare you tell me "nonsense," Dwight.
I am relaying to you things from my own experience
and you say to me, "NONSENSE?"


The nonsense was directed at your conclusions, Kim. How can you possibly
say "no one" is willing to do the work? As I said, the main reason most
people aren't willing to (and actually cannot) do those jobs is because of
the wages are too low, not because they're not willing to work. People are
willing to work if the pay is decent.


And you'd better be ready to not be able to afford
almost anything you buy cheaply right now BECAUSE
of things as they are.


I've already given several ways wages can be increased without
significantly increasing the costs of consumer goods.


Uh, I don't know what home you're talking about, but
my kids were not spoiled rotten. (snip)


Your kid was used as a metaphor for all kids in general. That should have
been obvious since it is clear I don't know your specific kid.


Didn't say you aren't willing to work. (snip)


Actually, you did pretty much say that, Kim. About me and all other
non-immigrant Americans. Your exact words were "no one is willing to do the
work a lot of our immigrant population are willing to do." Of course, that
simply isn't true (not even close).


(snip) And you're comments above about how tough
those jobs are for very little pay and how you wouldn't
do them...just highlights exactly what I was saying.


I said nothing about how tough those jobs are. Those jobs are the venue of
younger people without the aches and pains of older age. I did those jobs
when I was younger, but have since moved on to more substantial work over
the years to the point of owning my own businesses today. However, there are
plenty of young people today more than willing to work. But, as I said,
they're not going to be thrilled about working in jobs with wages so low
they cannot feed their families and have to live twenty to a hotel room or
apartment to help keep living costs down (like so many poor illegal
immigrants do today). If this overall trend continues, Americans in the not
so distant future, perhaps your grandchildren, are going to be living just
like people do in third-world countries. That's the real future we're
leaving future generations.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

In article .net, "Dwight
Stewart" writes:

"Kim" wrote:

I don't know about you, but I sure don't want to be
paying the price of your philosophy noted above.
Oh. And how dare you tell me "nonsense," Dwight.
I am relaying to you things from my own experience
and you say to me, "NONSENSE?"


The nonsense was directed at your conclusions, Kim. How can you possibly
say "no one" is willing to do the work?

Dwight,

I think that when Kim writes "no one" in a context like that, she really means
"almost no one" or "hardly anyone" rather than the literal standard meaning
"not a single person" or "nobody at all".

Of course there's the economic concept, derived from supply-and-demand, that if
you have something nobody seems to want, you have to make it more attractive.
With a product, that can me a lower price; with a job, that can mean higher
wages/better benefits.

Just MHO

73 de Jim, N2EY

73 de Jim, N2EY

N2EY wrote:

In article .net, "Dwight
Stewart" writes:


"Kim" wrote:

I don't know about you, but I sure don't want to be
paying the price of your philosophy noted above.
Oh. And how dare you tell me "nonsense," Dwight.
I am relaying to you things from my own experience
and you say to me, "NONSENSE?"


The nonsense was directed at your conclusions, Kim. How can you possibly
say "no one" is willing to do the work?


Dwight,

I think that when Kim writes "no one" in a context like that, she really means
"almost no one" or "hardly anyone" rather than the literal standard meaning
"not a single person" or "nobody at all".

Of course there's the economic concept, derived from supply-and-demand, that if
you have something nobody seems to want, you have to make it more attractive.
With a product, that can me a lower price; with a job, that can mean higher
wages/better benefits.

Sure! Corning Glass which recently closed in my town, had this
situation. The "hot" end of the building had work which was hot and
fairly dangerous, as working with molten glass is going to be. To entice
workers there, they were paid quite well. Simple supply and demand.

They are history now, and won't come back, as they can't compete with
the foreign sources. The foreign sources are so heavily subsidized by
their respective governments that it is just about impossible to compete.

I wonder what we'll do when the last manufacturing jobs are gone from
the US? Run up a white flag? (made in some other country, of course!)

- Mike KB3EIA -

"N2EY" wrote:

I think that when Kim writes "no one" in a context like
that, she really means "almost no one" or "hardly anyone"
rather than the literal standard meaning "not a single
person" or "nobody at all".


I know what she means, but it's not what she wrote, Jim. And if we can't
get past the absoluteness of that "no one," there is little way to continue
the discussion. If we're instead talking about "almost no one" or "hardly
anyone," then the obvious question becomes why bring in immigrants to take
even those few people's jobs or drive down their wages. Of course, I don't
really expect Kim to answer those questions. Few seem to care about the
Americans who are losing their jobs, or are seeing their wages reduced, as a
result of immigration and other government policies. They have their
pro-immigration blinders on and refuse to see the obvious fallout of these
government policies.

I look around and see many in my hometown (a small town) unemployed or
working in low paying jobs while every factory in the area closes and
immigrants move in to take jobs. A friend, who has been doing lawn care for
almost three decades, recently lost a long-standing contract to another
out-of-state company using all immigrant employees. As a result, he filed
for bankruptcy and had to fire his entire workforce - Americans who were
willing to work.

I'm feeling the pressure right now. One of my companies (wetland
maintenance) is facing competition from a company with almost all illegal
immigrant employees. I just barely held onto a county contract last time,
but profits are now dismal. To hold onto that contract next time, either I
cut my employee's wages sharply or I replace them with illegal immigrants.
The only other option is to not even bid at all, which means the other
company (with it's illegal immigrants) is assured the contract (and I let
employees go).

The economy of this country is quickly heading to hell in a handbasket and
few seem to even notice or care.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
ink.net...
"N2EY" wrote:

I think that when Kim writes "no one" in a context like
that, she really means "almost no one" or "hardly anyone"
rather than the literal standard meaning "not a single
person" or "nobody at all".


I know what she means, but it's not what she wrote, Jim. And if we can't
get past the absoluteness of that "no one," there is little way to
continue
the discussion. If we're instead talking about "almost no one" or "hardly
anyone," then the obvious question becomes why bring in immigrants to take
even those few people's jobs or drive down their wages.


And, if you want to argue symantecs, Dwight, then you have a roadblock that
won't allow for reasonable discussion of the topic. I am telling you that
my experience has been that people who are customarily born in this country
feel that the jobs we are speaking of are beneath them. Period. Now, the
only areas of this country that I have lived in with enough time to gather
that opinion is in NE NY and down here in the DFW area. If your experience
is different--sobeit. But, how dare you dismiss the experiences I have
seen.

Not only am I basing the opinion I have off true experience and
observations, I am also an above-average (or was) politically active person.
When topics like this come up on radio talk-shows, television news magazine
shows, and in Congress--which I used to spend hours and hours every day
watching--the discussion is that "immigration" is killing jobs in this
country vs. that the jobs in this country immigration fills are those that
will not customarily be done by people born here.

I wish I could say to you, "prove to me that there are people born here who
will ______" and you fill in the blank. But that is both unrealistic and
not constructive. So, the only mechanism I have by which to comment on the
topic *is* from my experience. I even added enough honesty into the
discussion to say that, neither now or when I *was* young enough to do it,
would *I* do those jobs. And, as Jim/N2EY pointed out, *immigrant* farming
is a whole other ballgame than just farming. Immigrant farming involves
migrant lifestyles that few of us are even familiar with--let alone willing
to do.



Of course, I don't
really expect Kim to answer those questions. Few seem to care about the
Americans who are losing their jobs, or are seeing their wages reduced, as
a
result of immigration and other government policies. They have their
pro-immigration blinders on and refuse to see the obvious fallout of these
government policies.


And, how dare you again, Dwight. You are being as overhanded with your
remarks about my character, related to this conversation as anyone like
Larry Roll would be--so don't even bother calling him on the carpet for his
behavior!! How dare you imply that I "don't care" about bad policies in
this country. Have I once said I don't care? Furthermore, the obvious
fallout that you believe is not what I see--and I've just told you I am
basing that on experience. Go to the Unemployment lines. I haven't--but I
*BET* the majority of people in those lines are not looking for work on
farms, at Wal-Mart, with municipalities, landscape companies, construction
firms, asbestos abatement firms, chemical and biological hazard waste firms,
and our ever-famous convenience stores such as 7-Eleven--all of which need
people constantly. I reiterate *CONSTANTLY* because there is no one who
will "take" those jobs--*EXCEPT* people who recognize them as a job to take
when one is desperate. (An aside--if you want to break off into symantecs
and argue about defining "no one," go debate with yourself, Dwight).

Those jobs, and so many more that I could think of, are *generally* not
taken by people who have been born in this country. There are some who
do--and they are in what used to be the ethnic miniorities. All one need do
is look around them to see where our youth find important and meaningful
employment: McDonald's and other fast food joints, light dining restaraunts,
and that's about it. Why did I break-out to light dining restaraunts?
Because I don't see teen-agers in the "finer" dining restaraunts--and my
husband and I love to eat out so we have some experience. Know why *I*
think they (teen-agers) aren't there? Because there, the customer service
is higher scale, which demands more personality, better etiquette, and of
course--greater work ethic. Guess who we do see serving us in those
restaraunts?

My husband has been at his formerly family-owned business for 27 years. His
mom sold the company last year. For most of those 27 years, until about 10
years ago, they had a great crew of folks. Since then, the main focus of my
husband's every day work has been to get someone in there who wants a job
and will work. Know how many nieces nephews, and his own kids and my son,
he has had through those years? Ten. Not one of them has ever, ever worked
there. Know how many great nieces and nephews he has had who, of course,
have been old enough to work through those years? They are just now getting
in to their early-mid teens. A quick count of those that could work there
is somewhere around seven. Not one has ever done it. Oh, I take that back.
My husband's daugher worked there--for literally four days.

For goodness sake, here's a great example: I am privvy to a situation where
I know a kid of coworker's who had "no prospect" (yeah, right) of a job
after completing a 2-year program with one of these "tech" type training
institutions. So, she's back living with mummy and daddy and pining and
sighing every day. I have a co-worker who is from India. He's brought his
wife over here and she'd been here for about, oh, three months before they
both learned of the medical transcritption service industry that's been
popping up over the past few years. He has a problem with his wife going
out in the workforce, but she wanted to work to contribute to the recovery
of costs it took to get her here, etc. She went to a 6-week (I think it
was) school to learn medical transcription, blah, blah, blah, she now has
her own home-business with her family doctor as her first customer and
she'll get more, I'm sure. We were all talking about this at work. He
mentions this to this coworker whose kid has no prospect for a job. Know
what the kid's response was? I think you do.

So, it isn't only you who has your own company, Dwight, whose livelihood is
at stake with things such as they are. I'll come full circle with my
indignation again: how dare you imply that I don't care.


I look around and see many in my hometown (a small town) unemployed or
working in low paying jobs while every factory in the area closes and
immigrants move in to take jobs.


If the factories are closing, then what jobs are the immigrants moving in to
take? And, have you any friends or casual acquaintances that you can ask if
they have tried to get those jobs? I am still curious to know if factories
are closing, what jobs are available for anyone to take? I take your
comment above to be pretty dismal. I've been in dismal (the NE when the oil
crisis happened--talk about getting dismal) and I had to move down here to
make it.


A friend, who has been doing lawn care for
almost three decades, recently lost a long-standing contract to another
out-of-state company using all immigrant employees. As a result, he filed
for bankruptcy and had to fire his entire workforce - Americans who were
willing to work.


Well, excuse me for the honesty--you'll call it having my blinders on or not
caring, maybe even because I am a "liberal"--but, if one contract put this
company out of business, then perhaps the person should have gone on to some
form of vocational or higher level training in business practices before
they took such a jump. I've had my own company too, years ago. And, if I'd
had just one "large" job/contract, I would have been in a constant state of
panic. And, as an aside, if this person's seeing other companies get the
contracts...then go get a job with those companies as a Salesperson, or
whatever. Maybe he/she *won't* make the money he's accustomed to--but we
gotta do whatever it takes to make adjustments to the things we have no
control over. And, if we have no control over the employment situation in
this country--we don't whine about it. We knuckle under, get the menial
jobs, sell the big house, get the little house, sell the SUV and get the
Saturn, and we begin the task of seeing what we can do--if anything--to
change the route of what we perceive as being awful.


I'm feeling the pressure right now. One of my companies (wetland
maintenance) is facing competition from a company with almost all illegal
immigrant employees.


Then, report the company to INS. REPORT THEM. If the company is getting
contracts based on their employment of illegeal aliens, then I am sure the
firms they are doing services for will want to know this. For goodness
sake, REPORT their ass.


I just barely held onto a county contract last time,
but profits are now dismal. To hold onto that contract next time, either I
cut my employee's wages sharply or I replace them with illegal immigrants.


Don't you dare buy in to the illegal and unethical side of this. To join is
not to change or conquer.


The only other option is to not even bid at all, which means the other
company (with it's illegal immigrants) is assured the contract (and I let
employees go).


And, if it illegal immigration that is nulling you out, you use the laws and
shouting as loud as you can shout to fight it.


The economy of this country is quickly heading to hell in a handbasket
and
few seem to even notice or care.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/



I don't know who's not noticing or caring. I see a lot of doing nothing to
get involved against it, or to even lift a finger of their own to change it.

Kim W5TIT

Kim W5TIT wrote:

won't allow for reasonable discussion of the topic. I am telling you that
my experience has been that people who are customarily born in this country
feel that the jobs we are speaking of are beneath them. Period.

It isn't everyone, Kim. I do agree that here in the US, that many
people feel that some jobs are "too low class" for them. Educators (and
many others in authority) have demeaned jobs they consider beneath
dignity. I remember my high school principle personally taking me aside
and telling me "Mike, you're a smart kid, why do you want to go to
Vo-Tech?" I took the academic courses also, but he was worried about the
"Tekker" image and what damage it could do to me. I was flattered for
his concern and intervening in what should have been between my guidance
counseler and myself, but I went to Vo-Tech anyhow.


For goodness sake, here's a great example: I am privvy to a situation where
I know a kid of coworker's who had "no prospect" (yeah, right) of a job
after completing a 2-year program with one of these "tech" type training
institutions. So, she's back living with mummy and daddy and pining and
sighing every day.

But she has options! She can live with Mommy and Daddy and not work! I
never considered that one of my options, so when I was young, I'd take
whatever job would put food on the table. And that makes for a big
difference in what job is demeaning, and what job isn't.



- Mike KB3EIA -

"Kim W5TIT" wrote:

(snip) I am telling you that my experience has been
that people who are customarily born in this country
feel that the jobs we are speaking of are beneath them.
(snip) But, how dare you dismiss the experiences I have
seen.


Again, I'm not dismissing your experiences. Instead, I'm questioning the
conclusions you've made about those experiences. You say, based on your
experiences with other people, nobody in this country other than immigrants
is willing to do those jobs? How many of those non-immigrant people did you
ask if they would take those jobs if the wages were better? I suspect just
about all of them would at least consider, and many would gladly take, those
jobs under different wage conditions. If I'm right, your conclusions are
flat wrong - non-immigrants are willing to do those jobs. And, if you are
wrong, to continue to perpetrate a myth that non-immigrants are either too
lazy or too uppish to do that work is simply insulting.


And, how dare you again, Dwight. (snip) How dare you
imply that I "don't care" about bad policies in this country.
Have I once said I don't care? (snip)


Lay off the false outrage, Kim. Nobody said you didn't care. I said "few
seem to care," not "Kim doesn't care." If you apply those words to yourself,
you do so in your own mind. If others want to apply those words to you,
they'll do so after reading what you've said.


(snip) and I've just told you I am basing that on experience. Go
to the Unemployment lines. I haven't--but I *BET* the majority
of people in those lines are not looking for work on farms, at
Wal-Mart, with municipalities, landscape companies, construction
firms, asbestos abatement firms, chemical and biological hazard
waste firms, and our ever-famous convenience stores such as
7-Eleven--all of which need people constantly.


Your experiences are clearly somewhat limited. Walmart doesn't hire
through state or outside employment agencies. Potential employees apply at
the individual stores and there are rarely shortages of applicants.
Municipalities tend to pay fairly well (with good benefits), hence rarely
have a shortage of applicants (skilled applicants is another matter).
Landscape companies, to keep costs down, are perhaps the largest employers
of illegal immigrants. Construction companies only have problems finding
skilled applicants (laborers are plentiful). The same with most other
companies seeking skilled labor. Convenience store jobs are among the lowest
paying, and most dangerous, in the country. In other words, none of these
tend to prove your point.


(snip) All one need do is look around them to see where our
youth find important and meaningful employment: McDonald's
and other fast food joints, light dining restaurants, and that's
about it. (snip)


You've got to be kidding, Kim. You consider employment at fast food
joints, some of the lowest paying jobs in this country, to be "important and
meaningful employment?"


(snip) Why did I break-out to light dining restaurants? Because
I don't see teen-agers in the "finer" dining restaraunts - and my
husband and I love to eat out so we have some experience.
Know why *I* think they (teen-agers) aren't there? Because
there, the customer service is higher scale, which demands more
personality, better etiquette, and of course--greater work ethic.


Or maybe the owners simply don't hire teenagers.


Guess who we do see serving us in those restaurants?


Who, Kim? You've already said teenagers (immigrant and non-immigrant)
don't work in these restaurants. That leaves only adults. I suppose you're
now going to say immigrant adults have more personally, better etiquette,
and a greater work ethic, than non-immigrant adults in this country, which
is why immigrant adults, not non-immigrant adults, work in the restaurants
you go to.


My husband has been at his formerly family-owned business
for 27 years. His mom sold the company last year. For most
of those 27 years, until about 10 years ago, they had a great
crew of folks. Since then, the main focus of my husband's
every day work has been to get someone in there who wants
a job and will work. Know how many nieces nephews, and
his own kids and my son, he has had through those years?
Ten. Not one of them has ever, ever worked there. (snip)


Perhaps that says more about your husband than the nieces, nephews, and
kids. That's not intended as an insult. Instead, it's just to point out that
few kids are willing to work for parents or immediate relatives - parents
and relatives tend to be more demanding and more judgmental than the normal
employer.


If the factories are closing, then what jobs are the immigrants
moving in to take? (snip) I am still curious to know if factories
are closing, what jobs are available for anyone to take? (snip)


Didn't I pretty much answer that in the next paragraph of that message?
There are obviously more jobs in town than just factory jobs, Kim. The
elimination of those factory jobs simply adds to the competition for those
remaining jobs.


Well, excuse me for the honesty--you'll call it having my
blinders on or not caring, maybe even because I am a
"liberal"--but, if one contract put this company out of
business, then perhaps the person should have gone on
to some form of vocational or higher level training in
business practices before they took such a jump. (snip)


It happened to be about a $450k per year contract, the loss of which his
company could not absorb.


(snip) if we have no control over the employment
situation in this country--we don't whine about it. We
knuckle under, get the menial jobs, sell the big house,
get the little house, sell the SUV and get the Saturn,
and we begin the task of seeing what we can do--if
anything--to change the route of what we perceive as
being awful. (snip)


Kim, as voters and citizens, we're supposed to have control over the
employment situation in this country. We don't simply because too many
choose to "knuckle under" instead of demanding better. Of course, they
probably don't have that much of a choice as long as most people are
heartless enough to think the solution for those people is to sell
everything, take a menial job, and live in poverty.


Then, report the company to INS. REPORT THEM. If
the company is getting contracts based on their employment
of illegeal aliens, then I am sure the firms they are doing
services for will want to know this. For goodness sake,
REPORT their ass.


I've already filed complaints. Sadly, it just doesn't work that way, Kim.
When it comes to businesses hiring illegal immigrants, government agencies
only take on a few, high profile, cases each year (such as Walmart
recently). Because of that, you could complain until you're blue in the face
and absolutely nothing will come of it. I truly wish it were different, but
that's simply the way it is (which is exactly why so many companies are now
willing to hire illegal immigrants).


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
news
"Kim W5TIT" wrote:

(snip) I am telling you that my experience has been
that people who are customarily born in this country
feel that the jobs we are speaking of are beneath them.
(snip) But, how dare you dismiss the experiences I have
seen.


Again, I'm not dismissing your experiences. Instead, I'm questioning the
conclusions you've made about those experiences. You say, based on your
experiences with other people, nobody in this country other than
immigrants
is willing to do those jobs? How many of those non-immigrant people did
you
ask if they would take those jobs if the wages were better?


Have you ever heard the phrase, "I wouldn't do that no matter how much they
paid me?" I haven't had to ask, Dwight. I am speaking of people that I
have personally been involved with either at casual get-togethers, work,
civic organizational meetings, or friends' socials.


I suspect just
about all of them would at least consider, and many would gladly take,
those
jobs under different wage conditions. If I'm right, your conclusions are
flat wrong - non-immigrants are willing to do those jobs.


I would not make such adamant comments based on supposition alone, Dwight.
And, I've tried to relay to you that I am referencing true/real-life
experiences--not just making casual observation.


And, if you are
wrong, to continue to perpetrate a myth that non-immigrants are either too
lazy or too uppish to do that work is simply insulting.


Welp, sorry. Then be insulted.


And, how dare you again, Dwight. (snip) How dare you
imply that I "don't care" about bad policies in this country.
Have I once said I don't care? (snip)

Lay off the false outrage, Kim. Nobody said you didn't care. I said "few
seem to care," not "Kim doesn't care." If you apply those words to
yourself,
you do so in your own mind. If others want to apply those words to you,
they'll do so after reading what you've said.


Then, you lay off the analogy of my being wrong and not caring, Dwight.
You'd be as affected if I responded to a post by you saying that, "seems
like everyone is on the _______ bandwagon." You would--and rightly so--make
the connection that I was including you as one of those "everyones." Also,
it is not false outrage--once again you dismiss someone else's attitude.


(snip) and I've just told you I am basing that on experience. Go
to the Unemployment lines. I haven't--but I *BET* the majority
of people in those lines are not looking for work on farms, at
Wal-Mart, with municipalities, landscape companies, construction
firms, asbestos abatement firms, chemical and biological hazard
waste firms, and our ever-famous convenience stores such as
7-Eleven--all of which need people constantly.

Your experiences are clearly somewhat limited.


You know what, Dwight? You're right. And, you know what else? I have
*told* you that I don't know how many times now. I have clearly, clearly
told you from whence I am basing my opinons. DUH!!!!!!!!!! And, you what
else? SO ARE YOURS.


Walmart doesn't hire
through state or outside employment agencies. Potential employees apply at
the individual stores and there are rarely shortages of applicants.


The phucking point is, Dwight, that people of whom you and I are
speaking--those that say they cannot find work, are not "looking" (i.e.,
going to take, consider, or toy with) the idea of employment at places like
Wal-Mart, etc.


Municipalities tend to pay fairly well (with good benefits), hence rarely
have a shortage of applicants (skilled applicants is another matter).


They have high turn-around, Dwight. Why? Because the work the ask folks to
do is generally considered to be far more work than many are willing to
do--even including police and fire work. And, even with the high
turnaround--again--the people of generally US-born heritage do not look for
or even consider work in those fields.


Landscape companies, to keep costs down, are perhaps the largest employers
of illegal immigrants. Construction companies only have problems finding
skilled applicants (laborers are plentiful). The same with most other
companies seeking skilled labor. Convenience store jobs are among the
lowest
paying, and most dangerous, in the country. In other words, none of these
tend to prove your point.


You are talking in circles, and ignoring good points I might add. My point
is this: REGARDLESS of the reasons you list above, the FACT still remains
that people who are in a non-immigrant class and generally US-born who you
say are displaced by immigrants filling the jobs, will *not* generally look
for or do the jobs listed above--and more. Whether you wish to believe that
or not--whatever. I've heard it expressed, I've known people who feel that
way, I've listened to it being discussed in public venues, and I've watched
my own Congress debate the problems associated with it.


(snip) All one need do is look around them to see where our
youth find important and meaningful employment: McDonald's
and other fast food joints, light dining restaurants, and that's
about it. (snip)

You've got to be kidding, Kim. You consider employment at fast food
joints, some of the lowest paying jobs in this country, to be "important
and
meaningful employment?"


For a phucking youth?????!!!!! Yes, I do, Dwight. The jobs filled at
places like that build the background it takes to be a half-way decent
employee as a young and professional adult.


(snip) Why did I break-out to light dining restaurants? Because
I don't see teen-agers in the "finer" dining restaraunts - and my
husband and I love to eat out so we have some experience.
Know why *I* think they (teen-agers) aren't there? Because
there, the customer service is higher scale, which demands more
personality, better etiquette, and of course--greater work ethic.

Or maybe the owners simply don't hire teenagers.


Give a dog a bone and he buries it.


Guess who we do see serving us in those restaurants?

Who, Kim? You've already said teenagers (immigrant and non-immigrant)
don't work in these restaurants. That leaves only adults. I suppose you're
now going to say immigrant adults have more personally, better etiquette,
and a greater work ethic, than non-immigrant adults in this country, which
is why immigrant adults, not non-immigrant adults, work in the restaurants
you go to.


Yep, that's exactly what I'm saying. And, just for you and Jim I'll say
this: some.


My husband has been at his formerly family-owned business
for 27 years. His mom sold the company last year. For most
of those 27 years, until about 10 years ago, they had a great
crew of folks. Since then, the main focus of my husband's
every day work has been to get someone in there who wants
a job and will work. Know how many nieces nephews, and
his own kids and my son, he has had through those years?
Ten. Not one of them has ever, ever worked there. (snip)

Perhaps that says more about your husband than the nieces, nephews, and
kids. That's not intended as an insult. Instead, it's just to point out
that
few kids are willing to work for parents or immediate relatives - parents
and relatives tend to be more demanding and more judgmental than the
normal
employer.


Give a dog a bone and he buries it.

OK, then, Dwight. Explain why in those years not only have the
nieces/nephews and great-nieces/nephews not worked there--in a time of our
country that unemployment is at the high it is, he (my husband) is begging
for employees? And, it happens that he is *always* begging for employees.
And, guess who generally fills that need? Not the people you say are out
there willing to take the job.


If the factories are closing, then what jobs are the immigrants
moving in to take? (snip) I am still curious to know if factories
are closing, what jobs are available for anyone to take? (snip)

Didn't I pretty much answer that in the next paragraph of that message?
There are obviously more jobs in town than just factory jobs, Kim. The
elimination of those factory jobs simply adds to the competition for those
remaining jobs.


Welcome to the real world, Dwight.


Well, excuse me for the honesty--you'll call it having my
blinders on or not caring, maybe even because I am a
"liberal"--but, if one contract put this company out of
business, then perhaps the person should have gone on
to some form of vocational or higher level training in
business practices before they took such a jump. (snip)

It happened to be about a $450k per year contract, the loss of which his
company could not absorb.


My point still remains. And, I've also gotta say: give a dog a bone and he
buries it.


(snip) if we have no control over the employment
situation in this country--we don't whine about it. We
knuckle under, get the menial jobs, sell the big house,
get the little house, sell the SUV and get the Saturn,
and we begin the task of seeing what we can do--if
anything--to change the route of what we perceive as
being awful. (snip)

Kim, as voters and citizens, we're supposed to have control over the
employment situation in this country.

PAH!! Welcome to the real world, Dwight. And, "supposed to" and do is two
entirely different things. We still don't sit around and whine about it.
Like I said above--we do what we gotta do and then we *begin the task of
seeing what we can do--if anything--to change the route of what we perceive
as being awful.* Is there a part of that you did not understand?


We don't simply because too many
choose to "knuckle under" instead of demanding better. Of course, they
probably don't have that much of a choice as long as most people are
heartless enough to think the solution for those people is to sell
everything, take a menial job, and live in poverty.


I am one of those who have mostly knuckled under. I used to try to change
things. But, without change I've done pretty well. It's a sad commentary,
but I and many are too busy knuckling under to try to change a
thing--welcome to the reality of what's really going on.


Then, report the company to INS. REPORT THEM. If
the company is getting contracts based on their employment
of illegeal aliens, then I am sure the firms they are doing
services for will want to know this. For goodness sake,
REPORT their ass.

I've already filed complaints. Sadly, it just doesn't work that way,
Kim.
When it comes to businesses hiring illegal immigrants, government agencies
only take on a few, high profile, cases each year (such as Walmart
recently). Because of that, you could complain until you're blue in the
face
and absolutely nothing will come of it. I truly wish it were different,
but
that's simply the way it is (which is exactly why so many companies are
now
willing to hire illegal immigrants).

Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/



Then figure out a way to be satisfied. Because you are absolutely right.
The one thing you and I differ on is that I do *not* believe the
immigrant/migrant/transient population in this country are displacing as
many as you believe. I believe they are doing jobs that--no matter how bad
it gets--"we" have been too spoiled to consider doing ourselves.

Kim W5TIT

"Kim W5TIT" wrote:
"Dwight Stewart" wrote:
(snip) I suppose you're now going to say immigrant
adults have more personally, better etiquette, and a
greater work ethic, than non-immigrant adults in this
country, which is why immigrant adults, not non-immigrant
adults, work in the restaurants you go to.

Yep, that's exactly what I'm saying. And, just for you and
Jim I'll say this: some.


Your bigotry towards American workers (non-immigrants) is noted. However,
we're straying off the subject with way too many personal anecdotes, so lets
get back to the core of this issue.

Again, I firmly believe the ONLY reason some people won't do some jobs is
because of the wages paid. There are people in this country (non-immigrants)
willing to walk into the containment chamber of a nuclear reactor if the pay
is good enough. There are people (non-immigrants) willing to walk 500 ft
high steel girders of a building construction site if the pay is good
enough. There are people (non-immigrants) willing to place their lives on
the line to protect you from crime if the pay is good enough. There are
people (non-immigrants) willing to lay their lives on the line to defend
this country if the pay is good enough. In other words, there are people
(non-immigrants) willing to do any job, no matter how bad or how dangerous,
if the pay is good enough. For you to now say otherwise, and instead insist
Americans just won't work because they're too lazy or too uppish (immigrants
workers are needed instead), is a slap in the face of every hard working
American.

If some of your friends and associates are different and won't work if the
pay is good (which I highly doubt), that says more about the people you hang
out with than it does about the American worker. The Americans I see all
around me are willing to work. However, the key issue for all of them is the
wages paid. It costs a lot of money to even be poor in this country today,
Kim. Average rent prices are approaching $700 per month. Average utility
prices are approaching $200 per month. Average car and insurance payments,
even for an older used car, are approaching $250 per month. Average food
prices, even for a young couple, are approaching $250 per month. That
doesn't include cloths, medical expenses, gas for the car to get to work,
car repairs, hair cuts, school costs for those who want to better their
lives, and so on. And that certainly doesn't include luxuries or children
(mentioned because some don't think the poor should even have children).

The average minimum wage worker is lucky to bring home $600 per month
after taxes. With that, even a two income family will have to give up some
of the basics of life (a car, a home, food, or something). Needless to say,
even common sense suggests few people want to work in those low paying jobs
and would rather hold out as long as possible for better paying jobs. You
seem to interpret that as they're simply too lazy or too uppish to work.

Bringing in immigrants to fill those jobs is not the answer. That still
leaves the people described above out of work and looking for jobs. Indeed,
filling those lower paying jobs with immigrants only increases the glut of
workers seeking slightly better paying jobs, driving wages down for those
jobs too. And the cycle repeats for the next higher paying jobs as workers
already in those slightly better paying jobs seek higher paying work to
escape the glut in workers seeking their jobs. The ripple effect of this
practice is undermining the entire American labor force. In the end, the
inevitable result of all this is a much lower standard of living for all
working class Americans. And those people are not going to be happy campers,
even less so as they hear some describe them as too lazy or too uppish to
work.

Increasing wages is the only answer. And if that drives some less
efficient companies out of business, well too bad. There are no guarantees
in this country (as Charles says) and, if the business is at all worthwhile,
plenty of other, hopefully better managed, companies will quickly spring up
to take their place.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/