KØHB wrote:
"N2EY" wrote

|
| - Allowing a free upgrade is proof that the material in the test which
is not
| taken is not necessary for the privileges.
|

Here we go again! Damn it Jim, that is patently false and you know that
it is, yet you keep dragging it out as a fact. Allowing a free upgrade
isn't "proof" of anything except that a free-pass was given, sort of
like a day of amnesty when all overdue library books can be returned
without fees. Yes, it's a really bad idea, but it doesn't disprove the
need for proper qualification examinations. Go join Carl Stevenson and
Ed Hare in the NTI sign-up queue. (I'd mention them by call sign, but I
wouldn't want to risk compromising your "standards".)

If the Technicians are given the same privileges as a General, does it
not mean that a Technician is capable of those privileges after taking
the Technician test? If so then why should any further testing besides
Technician level be given for future General class licensees at the old
level. All that is needed is a Technician level test.

Amnesty? OY!

- Mike KB3EIA -

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , Paul W. Schleck
writes:

In (N2EY)
writes:


In article , Paul W. Schleck
writes:

In (N2EY)
writes:


In article om, "Dee
D.
Flint" writes:

Basically I think the ARRL Board knows that the free upgrades means
that
their proposal probably will not be adopted in this form. The FCC
has
never
gone along with free upgrades before and there is no evidence that
they
would do so now. However, I believe they tossed it in as another
idea
for
the FCC to consider in developing whatever the FCC decides to do, if
they
decide to do anything at all.

That's probably correct, Dee. And that's what bothers me!

As you say, FCC has never done free upgrades, and the last time the
issue
came
up (98-143), the ARRL proposal was for existing Novices (!) and Tech
Pluses
to
get free upgrade to General. Of course, FCC said "no way", and has had
no
problem whatever keeping the closed-to-new-issues classes in their
database.

So why propose something FCC obviously isn't going to do? Just wastes
everybody's time.

More important, it diverts attention from the other issues.

oh wait, I think I just answered my own question...;-)

73 de Jim, N2EY

I brought this subject up with someone in the League. This exact
thread, actually. I was told that the ARRL BoD sincerely believes
(take
at face value, or not) that failure to upgrade licensees in the FCC R&O
for WT 98-143 was not a final "no" answer.

Maybe it wasn't. But are such freebies really a good idea?

It may be a realistic, and pragmatic, idea when considered against the
pros and cons:

Cons:

Provides a "free upgrade" to those that haven't explicitly tested for
it.

That's one. There are others:

- Allowing a free upgrade is proof that the material in the test which is
not
taken
is not necessary for the privileges.

Like that hasn't been the case for decades...

- Amateurs who miss the one time upgrade have to take more tests than
those who
didn't. How do we justify that?

You don't need to justify it. Life's a bitch and then you die.

- Decreased reason for more than half of all hams to upgrade by testing.

Pros:

Avoids having to wait until the last Advanced class license expires to
refarm the Advanced phone bands.

Why does that have to be done at all?

To eliminate having a dual set of regulations.

Alternatively, avoids opening up the
Advanced class phone bands to General-class hams (an effective downgrade
in privileges for Advanced, and crowding out DX users with more
U.S. hams in those bands) or opening up the Extra class phone bands to
Advanced-class hams (which would be a "free upgrade" in all but name).

Again, why not just leave those subbands as they are now?

The FCC and government prefer simplicity.

Also avoids having to accommodate a license class (Tech Plus) that isn't
even carried in the FCC database anymore, which is a records/
enforcement problem for the FCC, and requires the licensee to keep
documentation forever.

If the current rules are left alone, all Tech Pluses will be Techs in six
years, two months and 20 days or so.

But all Novices and Advanced won't be gone for decades.

Why not just give all the existing Techs, Tech Pluses and Novices the
"NewNovice" privs, in addition to their existing privileges? The database
doesn't need to change at all.

Rather, it is just one of
the unresolved loose ends that was deliberately not tied up until
better
consensus emerged from the amateur radio community about things like
Novice band refarming, etc. The League official noted that the ARRL's
band refarming proposal, RM-10413, has been sitting on an FCC
official's
desk for about two years now (he claims to know the exact FCC official,
but did not name him). Because of this, as long a wait, if not longer,
is expected on a "final" answer concerning automatic upgrading.

I say we should judge by actions. When FCC thinksa proposal is a good or
bad
idea, they act. How long did the whole 98-143 process take, from initial
release of the NPRM to the new rules in April 2000?

More important, what would a lack of free upgrades hurt? Is it really
such a
burden to require an Advanced to pass Element 4, or a Tech to pass
Element
3, in order to get the next higher grade of license?

I think the ARRL may be politically shrewder than some would give them
credit.

You mean the BoD. I'm the ARRL too, remember?

How much of the ARRL proposal in 1998 got enacted?

Feel free to let us know.

They can turn to the reformers and say, "See, we're giving you
a both a Novice and General HF-class license that doesn't require Morse
Code." To the old-school (and long-time, dues-paying) members they can
at least imply, "We recognize that the Morse Code tests you took in the
past are valuable, so we are going to reward you with a higher class of
license. Then you will always know that you are better than anyone who
gets a General or Extra class license under the reduced standards in the
future."

Avoids the subject of why free upgrades are needed.

I say they're not.

So argue with the ARRL then.

Cheers,
Bill K2UNK

"KØHB" wrote in message
link.net...

Here we go again! Damn it [expletive deleted], that is patently false and
you know that
it is, yet you keep dragging it out as a fact.


'S called barking up a tree...

Kim W5TIT

"KØHB" wrote in message hlink.net...
"N2EY" wrote

|
| - Allowing a free upgrade is proof that the material in the test which
is not
| taken is not necessary for the privileges.
|

Here we go again! Damn it Jim, that is patently false and you know that
it is, yet you keep dragging it out as a fact. Allowing a free upgrade
isn't "proof" of anything except that a free-pass was given, sort of
like a day of amnesty when all overdue library books can be returned
without fees. Yes, it's a really bad idea, but it doesn't disprove the
need for proper qualification examinations. Go join Carl Stevenson and
Ed Hare in the NTI sign-up queue. (I'd mention them by call sign, but I
wouldn't want to risk compromising your "standards".)

3333333, Hans, K0-Heavenly-Body

Jim is going down the same path that both Larry Roll and Bruce Benyon
have admitted to taking. If they can't have an ARS that meets their
lofty ideals, then they want to destroy it.

You read it here first.

bb

If they can't have an ARS that meets their
lofty ideals, then they want to destroy it.

You read it here first.

bb

I have no intention of destroying it, groups like NCI and "CBRRL" are doing a
GREAT JOB without my help.

In (N2EY) writes:

In article , Paul W. Schleck
writes:

In (N2EY) writes:


In article , Paul W. Schleck
writes:

In (N2EY)
writes:


In article om, "Dee D.
Flint" writes:

Basically I think the ARRL Board knows that the free upgrades means that
their proposal probably will not be adopted in this form. The FCC has
never
gone along with free upgrades before and there is no evidence that they
would do so now. However, I believe they tossed it in as another idea
for
the FCC to consider in developing whatever the FCC decides to do, if they
decide to do anything at all.

That's probably correct, Dee. And that's what bothers me!

As you say, FCC has never done free upgrades, and the last time the issue
came
up (98-143), the ARRL proposal was for existing Novices (!) and Tech
Pluses
to
get free upgrade to General. Of course, FCC said "no way", and has had no
problem whatever keeping the closed-to-new-issues classes in their
database.

So why propose something FCC obviously isn't going to do? Just wastes
everybody's time.

More important, it diverts attention from the other issues.

oh wait, I think I just answered my own question...;-)

73 de Jim, N2EY

I brought this subject up with someone in the League. This exact
thread, actually. I was told that the ARRL BoD sincerely believes (take
at face value, or not) that failure to upgrade licensees in the FCC R&O
for WT 98-143 was not a final "no" answer.

Maybe it wasn't. But are such freebies really a good idea?

It may be a realistic, and pragmatic, idea when considered against the
pros and cons:

Cons:

Provides a "free upgrade" to those that haven't explicitly tested for
it.

That's one. There are others:

- Allowing a free upgrade is proof that the material in the test which is not
taken is not necessary for the privileges.

To quote from the ARRL's FAQ on their proposal:

http://www.arrl.org/news/restructuring2/faq.html

"The fact is that the examination bar has never been at a uniform height
over ham radio's nearly 100-year history."

Were you also opposed to giving pre-1917 hams a waiver for the 20 WPM
code test?

- Amateurs who miss the one time upgrade have to take more tests than those
who didn't. How do we justify that?

It's called "grandfathering," which is done in more regulatory contexts
than can possibly be named here. Due to the need for certainty in the
law, it is nearly always based on hard cutoff dates. Technologies,
practices, and people change over the very long timeline that laws and
regulations are required to cover. It is not possible to predict the
future with certainty, so laws and regulations must change to reflect
current knowledge. It is also impractical for society to retest,
recertify, or revalidate every existing entity against current
requirements.

The web site for Malvern Instrumentation gives a good definition of
grandfathering in a technical context:

"Grandfathering is the practice of claiming exemption of older systems
from validation regulations and requirements on the basis that these
systems have proved their reliability by adoption for a long period of
time by a large user base."

Grandfathering in the context of ham radio recognizes that existing hams
have not only passed the tests in effect at the time, sometimes topics
not covered presently (Morse code, drawing circuit diagrams, etc.), but
have also gained experience beyond their initial exam topics. It is a
fair, and pragmatic, distinction between existing hams and entry-level
ones. Quoting again from the FAQ document:

"Passing any amateur examination does not magically result in a good
operator. It's just the key to the kingdom, so to speak. Experience and
good mentoring create skillful and knowledgeable operators, not the
relative difficulty or ease of the test."

You might argue that not every existing ham has obtained the same degree
of experience, or even a minimum necessary level of experience to be
given a free upgrade. That would be true, but ultimately would be
self-limiting, as experience would correlate with participation. An
inactive ham using no privileges today would be using no more privileges
if the FCC gave him a free upgrade tomorrow. Free upgrades are not a
perfect solution, ideal in all cases, but are a good solution overall.

- Decreased reason for more than half of all hams to upgrade by testing.

No proposal is perfect. Weigh this one against the pros.


Pros:

Avoids having to wait until the last Advanced class license expires to
refarm the Advanced phone bands.

Why does that have to be done at all?

So, are you advocating not refarming the Advanced phone bands even
*after* the last Advanced class license expires? Yeah, that's a
semantic nit-pick over what you wrote above, but then so is "You mean
the BoD. I'm the ARRL too, remember?" that you wrote below.

If you do agree that the Advanced phone bands should be refarmed at some
point in the future, at what point would you have it done? Would you
leave it to Extras, give it to Generals, or would you otherwise split it
up in some way?

Alternatively, avoids opening up the
Advanced class phone bands to General-class hams (an effective downgrade
in privileges for Advanced, and crowding out DX users with more
U.S. hams in those bands) or opening up the Extra class phone bands to
Advanced-class hams (which would be a "free upgrade" in all but name).

Again, why not just leave those subbands as they are now?

In this day and age, regulatory agencies seem more eager to simplify
regulations. Removing regulations that are obsolete, or cover too small
an intended audience to be justified on a cost basis, is likely a top
priority for such agencies. Again, what is your timeline for change?
Decades in the future, or never?

Also avoids having to accommodate a license class (Tech Plus) that isn't
even carried in the FCC database anymore, which is a records/
enforcement problem for the FCC, and requires the licensee to keep
documentation forever.

If the current rules are left alone, all Tech Pluses will be Techs in six
years, two months and 20 days or so.

If by saying, "If the current rules are left alone..." you really meant
leaving alone everything *except* the 5 WPM Morse code requirement
(which would be eliminated for these General and below under the ARRL
proposal), then, and only then, Technician-class hams will assume the
HF privileges of Technician-Plus. That's still a long time in FCC
enforcement (and VEC administration) years. Even if you argue that FCC
action on further restructuring will take most of that six years anyway,
there are still all those Novice and Advanced class licenses that will
likely exist in the database for decades to come.

Why not just give all the existing Techs, Tech Pluses and Novices the
"NewNovice" privs, in addition to their existing privileges? The database
doesn't need to change at all.

Did you notice that Novices actually lose privileges? See the FAQ
document above for more details. In particular, power limits are
lowered from 200 Watts PEP to 100 Watts PEP on HF bands except for 10
meters, and 50 Watts PEP on 10 meters. From the FAQ:

"The reason behind the change in Novice power limits is to avoid having
to examine entry-level applicants about how to evaluate amateur stations
for RF safety. "

I'm sure that you would argue that Technicians should retain their power
limits (1500 Watts PEP) on 6 meters and up, and I would agree, but what
about HF? Should Technicians lose privileges on those bands, by having
their power limits lowered (from 200 Watts PEP), or should there be
separate power limits for Novice and Technician on HF? This is starting
to get more complicated than before.


Rather, it is just one of
the unresolved loose ends that was deliberately not tied up until better
consensus emerged from the amateur radio community about things like
Novice band refarming, etc. The League official noted that the ARRL's
band refarming proposal, RM-10413, has been sitting on an FCC official's
desk for about two years now (he claims to know the exact FCC official,
but did not name him). Because of this, as long a wait, if not longer,
is expected on a "final" answer concerning automatic upgrading.

I say we should judge by actions. When FCC thinksa proposal is a good or
bad
idea, they act. How long did the whole 98-143 process take, from initial
release of the NPRM to the new rules in April 2000?

More important, what would a lack of free upgrades hurt? Is it really such a
burden to require an Advanced to pass Element 4, or a Tech to pass Element
3, in order to get the next higher grade of license?

I think the ARRL may be politically shrewder than some would give them
credit.

You mean the BoD. I'm the ARRL too, remember?

Yes, I meant the governance of the ARRL when I used the shorthand "ARRL"
in the context of offering an opinion on a BoD decision. Only they can
establish ARRL official policy and petition the FCC in the name of the
ARRL. Who else did you think I meant?

How much of the ARRL proposal in 1998 got enacted?

You will need more than a rhetorical question to make an argument here.
Instead, why don't you just come right out and say, for the benefit of
the audience, which items in the ARRL proposal got enacted, and which
ones didn't? And, of those that didn't get enacted, which ones you
think have already been given a final "no" answer?

They can turn to the reformers and say, "See, we're giving you
a both a Novice and General HF-class license that doesn't require Morse
Code." To the old-school (and long-time, dues-paying) members they can
at least imply, "We recognize that the Morse Code tests you took in the
past are valuable, so we are going to reward you with a higher class of
license. Then you will always know that you are better than anyone who
gets a General or Extra class license under the reduced standards in the
future."

Avoids the subject of why free upgrades are needed.

But does address the subject of why they may be politically desirable,
not only by leading to simplified FCC regulations, but also resulting
in a more harmonious and productive amateur radio in the future by
addressing most of the concerns of most factions.

I say they're not.

So you've said. I'm sure that you will also say this to your
representatives within the ARRL and comment on any future FCC NPRM on
the subject. I will, too. For the record, I'm not in complete
agreement with the ARRL proposal, either. I don't see the regulatory
justification for the retention of 5 WPM Morse code for Extra, and I
remain skeptical that a Novice license (even a restructured one) is
viable today.

73 de Jim, N2EY

--
73, Paul W. Schleck, K3FU

http://www.novia.net/~pschleck/
Finger for PGP Public Key

In article , "Kim W5TIT"
writes:

"KØHB" wrote in message
hlink.net...

Here we go again! Damn it [expletive deleted], that is patently false and
you know that
it is, yet you keep dragging it out as a fact.


'S called barking up a tree...

...or trying to nail jelly to it... :-)

LHA / WMD

In article , Paul W. Schleck
writes:

In (N2EY) writes:

In article , Paul W. Schleck
writes:

In (N2EY)
writes:


In article , Paul W. Schleck
writes:

In (N2EY)
writes:


In article om, "Dee
D.
Flint" writes:

Basically I think the ARRL Board knows that the free upgrades means
that
their proposal probably will not be adopted in this form. The FCC has
never
gone along with free upgrades before and there is no evidence that they
would do so now. However, I believe they tossed it in as another idea
for
the FCC to consider in developing whatever the FCC decides to do, if
they
decide to do anything at all.

That's probably correct, Dee. And that's what bothers me!

As you say, FCC has never done free upgrades, and the last time the
issue
came
up (98-143), the ARRL proposal was for existing Novices (!) and Tech
Pluses
to
get free upgrade to General. Of course, FCC said "no way", and has had
no
problem whatever keeping the closed-to-new-issues classes in their
database.

So why propose something FCC obviously isn't going to do? Just wastes
everybody's time.

More important, it diverts attention from the other issues.

oh wait, I think I just answered my own question...;-)

73 de Jim, N2EY

I brought this subject up with someone in the League. This exact
thread, actually. I was told that the ARRL BoD sincerely believes (take
at face value, or not) that failure to upgrade licensees in the FCC R&O
for WT 98-143 was not a final "no" answer.

Maybe it wasn't. But are such freebies really a good idea?

It may be a realistic, and pragmatic, idea when considered against the
pros and cons:

Cons:

Provides a "free upgrade" to those that haven't explicitly tested for
it.

That's one. There are others:

- Allowing a free upgrade

*can be taken as*

proof that the material in the test which is not
taken is not necessary for the privileges.

To quote from the ARRL's FAQ on their proposal:

http://www.arrl.org/news/restructuring2/faq.html

"The fact is that the examination bar has never been at a uniform height
over ham radio's nearly 100-year history."

And I say: "So what? The question is whether there is any good reason to
give almost 60% of existing hams a free upgrade to the next license class,
even though the upgrade to that class requires only a written test from a
published pool.

Were you also opposed to giving pre-1917 hams a waiver for the 20 WPM
code test?

No such waiver ever existed. What *was* waived were the 20 wpm receiving and
sending code tests, plus the Extra written test. The person who got the waiver
had to hold at least a General license, too.

That was long before my time, too. And it affected maybe 2% of the licensed
hams at the time.

- Amateurs who miss the one time upgrade have to take more tests than those
who didn't. How do we justify that?

It's called "grandfathering," which is done in more regulatory contexts
than can possibly be named here. Due to the need for certainty in the
law, it is nearly always based on hard cutoff dates. Technologies,
practices, and people change over the very long timeline that laws and
regulations are required to cover. It is not possible to predict the
future with certainty, so laws and regulations must change to reflect
current knowledge. It is also impractical for society to retest,
recertify, or revalidate every existing entity against current
requirements.

None of which is proposed.

The web site for Malvern Instrumentation gives a good definition of
grandfathering in a technical context:

"Grandfathering is the practice of claiming exemption of older systems
from validation regulations and requirements on the basis that these
systems have proved their reliability by adoption for a long period of
time by a large user base."

Grandfathering in the context of ham radio recognizes that existing hams
have not only passed the tests in effect at the time, sometimes topics
not covered presently (Morse code, drawing circuit diagrams, etc.), but
have also gained experience beyond their initial exam topics. It is a
fair, and pragmatic, distinction between existing hams and entry-level
ones. Quoting again from the FAQ document:

"Passing any amateur examination does not magically result in a good
operator. It's just the key to the kingdom, so to speak. Experience and
good mentoring create skillful and knowledgeable operators, not the
relative difficulty or ease of the test."

I disagree with that assessment. YMMV.

You might argue that not every existing ham has obtained the same degree
of experience, or even a minimum necessary level of experience to be
given a free upgrade. That would be true, but ultimately would be
self-limiting, as experience would correlate with participation. An
inactive ham using no privileges today would be using no more privileges
if the FCC gave him a free upgrade tomorrow. Free upgrades are not a
perfect solution, ideal in all cases, but are a good solution overall.

I disagree. What's wrong with simply allowing Techs, Tech Pluses and Advanceds
to upgrade in their own time?

What is the sudden need to eliminate those license classes? The Novice and
Advanced have been closed off to new issues for almost 4 years, and their
numbers have declined. And from 1953 to 1967, no new Advanceds were issued. Did
any of that cause problems?

What's the rush?

Are the written tests too hard?

- Decreased reason for more than half of all hams to upgrade by testing.

No proposal is perfect. Weigh this one against the pros.

I have. The cons win.

Pros:

Avoids having to wait until the last Advanced class license expires to
refarm the Advanced phone bands.

Why does that have to be done at all?

So, are you advocating not refarming the Advanced phone bands even
*after* the last Advanced class license expires? Yeah, that's a
semantic nit-pick over what you wrote above, but then so is "You mean
the BoD. I'm the ARRL too, remember?" that you wrote below.

You're avoiding the question.

Why do the Advanced class subbands have to be "refarmed" at all? Who or what
would they be "refarmed" to? What's the longterm plan?

If you do agree that the Advanced phone bands should be refarmed at some
point in the future, at what point would you have it done? Would you
leave it to Extras, give it to Generals, or would you otherwise split it
up in some way?

Why does it need to be done at all? Is the Extra written that hard?

Alternatively, avoids opening up the
Advanced class phone bands to General-class hams (an effective downgrade
in privileges for Advanced, and crowding out DX users with more
U.S. hams in those bands) or opening up the Extra class phone bands to
Advanced-class hams (which would be a "free upgrade" in all but name).

Again, why not just leave those subbands as they are now?

In this day and age, regulatory agencies seem more eager to simplify
regulations. Removing regulations that are obsolete, or cover too small
an intended audience to be justified on a cost basis, is likely a top
priority for such agencies. Again, what is your timeline for change?
Decades in the future, or never?

I don't see any reason to "refarm" them at all. Not at this time, anyway.

Note that in 4 years, the number of Advanceds has dropped by only about 16%.
Seems to be a pretty popular license even today.

It sounds to me like you want all Advanceds to become Extras so that the
Advanced subbands can become General bandspace. That's not part of the ARRL
proposal, though.

Also avoids having to accommodate a license class (Tech Plus) that isn't
even carried in the FCC database anymore, which is a records/
enforcement problem for the FCC, and requires the licensee to keep
documentation forever.

If the current rules are left alone, all Tech Pluses will be Techs in six
years, two months and 20 days or so.

If by saying, "If the current rules are left alone..." you really meant
leaving alone everything *except* the 5 WPM Morse code requirement
(which would be eliminated for these General and below under the ARRL
proposal), then, and only then, Technician-class hams will assume the
HF privileges of Technician-Plus.

Whatever. I don't see why the 5 wpm code test is such a big deal as a
requirement.

That's still a long time in FCC
enforcement (and VEC administration) years.

Why? It's been almost 4 years since the last restructuring took effect. Look at
the enforcement letters - Techs without code masquerading as Tech Pluses isn't
a
big problem, from what I see.

Even if you argue that FCC
action on further restructuring will take most of that six years anyway,
there are still all those Novice and Advanced class licenses that will
likely exist in the database for decades to come.

It makes sense to grandfather existing Novices to the "NewNovice" (or whatever
it is called). There are only about 32,000 Novices left now, down from just
under 50,000 after restructuring.

What *is* the problem with Advanceds just staying as they are? Have you not
read from the Advanceds who say they *don't want* to become Extras?

Why not just give all the existing Techs, Tech Pluses and Novices the
"NewNovice" privs, in addition to their existing privileges? The database
doesn't need to change at all.

Did you notice that Novices actually lose privileges? See the FAQ
document above for more details. In particular, power limits are
lowered from 200 Watts PEP to 100 Watts PEP on HF bands except for 10
meters, and 50 Watts PEP on 10 meters.

Is that really much of a problem? How many Novices are on the air today running
more than those power levels?

From the FAQ:

"The reason behind the change in Novice power limits is to avoid having
to examine entry-level applicants about how to evaluate amateur stations
for RF safety. "

I'm sure that you would argue that Technicians should retain their power
limits (1500 Watts PEP) on 6 meters and up, and I would agree, but what
about HF? Should Technicians lose privileges on those bands, by having
their power limits lowered (from 200 Watts PEP), or should there be
separate power limits for Novice and Technician on HF? This is starting
to get more complicated than before.

Not at all! Where an existing ham has greater privs, those privs would be
retained. This has been done with Tech Pluses for almost 4 years now. FCC
proposed it and enacted it, btw. Why can't it be done for existing Novices and
Techs?

The 1998 proposal from ARRL Hq was for Tech Pluses and Novices to get a freebie
to General - and FCC said no. What has changed that suddenly makes free
upgrades a good idea?

Rather, it is just one of
the unresolved loose ends that was deliberately not tied up until better
consensus emerged from the amateur radio community about things like
Novice band refarming, etc. The League official noted that the ARRL's
band refarming proposal, RM-10413, has been sitting on an FCC official's
desk for about two years now (he claims to know the exact FCC official,
but did not name him). Because of this, as long a wait, if not longer,
is expected on a "final" answer concerning automatic upgrading.

I say we should judge by actions. When FCC thinksa proposal is a good or
bad
idea, they act. How long did the whole 98-143 process take, from initial
release of the NPRM to the new rules in April 2000?

More important, what would a lack of free upgrades hurt? Is it really such
a
burden to require an Advanced to pass Element 4, or a Tech to pass Element
3, in order to get the next higher grade of license?

I think the ARRL may be politically shrewder than some would give them
credit.

You mean the BoD. I'm the ARRL too, remember?

Yes, I meant the governance of the ARRL when I used the shorthand "ARRL"
in the context of offering an opinion on a BoD decision. Only they can
establish ARRL official policy and petition the FCC in the name of the
ARRL. Who else did you think I meant?

Those folks are elected and paid for by members like *me*. They supposedly
make those proposals in *my* name and with *my* support.

Well, I don't support everything in that proposal.

How much of the ARRL proposal in 1998 got enacted?

You will need more than a rhetorical question to make an argument here.
Instead, why don't you just come right out and say, for the benefit of
the audience, which items in the ARRL proposal got enacted, and which
ones didn't? And, of those that didn't get enacted, which ones you
think have already been given a final "no" answer?

All right.

Fact is, almost nothing proposed by ARRL Hq in 1998 got enacted. 5 wpm for
General, that's about it. On everything else, FCC either:

- said no: free upgrades, better written tests, Techs on HF CW without a formal
test

- went far beyond what was requested: 5 wpm Extra, Advanced closed off, written
testing reduced dramatically

They can turn to the reformers and say, "See, we're giving you
a both a Novice and General HF-class license that doesn't require Morse
Code." To the old-school (and long-time, dues-paying) members they can
at least imply, "We recognize that the Morse Code tests you took in the
past are valuable, so we are going to reward you with a higher class of
license. Then you will always know that you are better than anyone who
gets a General or Extra class license under the reduced standards in the
future."

Avoids the subject of why free upgrades are needed.

But does address the subject of why they may be politically desirable,
not only by leading to simplified FCC regulations, but also resulting
in a more harmonious and productive amateur radio in the future by
addressing most of the concerns of most factions.

I don't see that at all. Are the written tests so difficult, and the VE test
process so onerous, that free upgrades are the only answer?

I say they're not.

So you've said. I'm sure that you will also say this to your
representatives within the ARRL and comment on any future FCC NPRM on
the subject.

Already have. In detail. More to come, too.

I will, too. For the record, I'm not in complete
agreement with the ARRL proposal, either. I don't see the regulatory
justification for the retention of 5 WPM Morse code for Extra,

I do. Morse code is a big part of amateur radio, and having no code test at all
simply denies the reality of that.

and I
remain skeptical that a Novice license (even a restructured one) is
viable today.

What we have now is a system that tends to funnel newcomers into VHF/UHF
amateur radio, and manufactured equipment. And away from HF and homebrewing. A
restructured Novice could change that.

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article , Alun
writes:

It has worse S/N performance than SSB

That depends entirely on the type of encoding and modulation used,
doesn't it?
Can you categorically say that digital voice can *never* outperform
SSB?

No. One day it might. But not yet.

Even if the data rate is slowed down?

If there's anything that deserves spectrum space for experimentation,
it's digital modes, not analog voice modes.

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article . net, "Bill Sohl"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , Paul W. Schleck
writes:

In (N2EY)
writes:


In article om, "Dee
D.
Flint" writes:

Basically I think the ARRL Board knows that the free upgrades means
that
their proposal probably will not be adopted in this form. The FCC has
never
gone along with free upgrades before and there is no evidence that they
would do so now. However, I believe they tossed it in as another idea
for
the FCC to consider in developing whatever the FCC decides to do, if
they
decide to do anything at all.

That's probably correct, Dee. And that's what bothers me!

As you say, FCC has never done free upgrades, and the last time the
issue
came
up (98-143), the ARRL proposal was for existing Novices (!) and Tech
Pluses
to
get free upgrade to General. Of course, FCC said "no way", and has had
no
problem whatever keeping the closed-to-new-issues classes in their
database.

So why propose something FCC obviously isn't going to do? Just wastes
everybody's time.

More important, it diverts attention from the other issues.

oh wait, I think I just answered my own question...;-)

73 de Jim, N2EY

I brought this subject up with someone in the League. This exact
thread, actually. I was told that the ARRL BoD sincerely believes (take
at face value, or not) that failure to upgrade licensees in the FCC R&O
for WT 98-143 was not a final "no" answer.

Maybe it wasn't. But are such freebies really a good idea?

Here's your options:

We currently have essentially a 6 license system in place (even though
several licenses are no longer issued). To go from that system
to the one proposed by ARRL leaves three options as I see it:

1. The one-time free upgrade process as put forth by ARRL which takes
nothing away from anyone

Hold on a sec.

Right now there are about 105,000 Extras. And we have a few slices of
choice kHz on 4 HF bands. In my experience, QRM in these subbands is usually
less than elsewhere in the same band because relatively few US hams have access
to them.

If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have access to
those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level. So giving them
a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Same situation for Generals.
elsewhere in the same band

and immediately gets everyone into the
new 3 license system,

But nobody says why that is such a big priority, when it wasn't 4 years ago.

or

2. Go to the new system but "grandfather" those on current but no
longer to be issued license classes which takes nothing from anyone but
presents a dual system of licenses, rules and regulations which would
likly exist for decades until those with licenses no longer being issued
as new ended up SK or otherwise dropped from our ranks

or upgraded! Have you forgotten that any of the closed off classes can
upgrade with the required tests? The fact that so few Advanceds have
upgraded in almost 4 years is quite interesting, don't you think? Number
of Advanceds is down by only about 16%, and that includes both upgrades
and expirations.

or,

3. Implement the ARRL 3 licnense system and downgrade some
folks to new Novice (i.e. the Techs) or General (i.e the Advanced).
This last scenario takes away privileges and we all know how well
that went down in the late 60's Incentive Licensing implementation.

Or

4. Do something else.

To me the answer is clear...and, I suspect so is it also to ARRL which
is why the proposal includes free upgrades.

Why should FCC allow free upgrades today, when they said no in 1999? What has
changed?

Rather, it is just one of
the unresolved loose ends that was deliberately not tied up until better
consensus emerged from the amateur radio community about things like
Novice band refarming, etc. The League official noted that the ARRL's
band refarming proposal, RM-10413, has been sitting on an FCC official's
desk for about two years now (he claims to know the exact FCC official,
but did not name him). Because of this, as long a wait, if not longer,
is expected on a "final" answer concerning automatic upgrading.

I say we should judge by actions. When FCC thinksa proposal is a good or
bad
idea, they act. How long did the whole 98-143 process take, from initial
release of the NPRM to the new rules in April 2000?

More important, what would a lack of free upgrades hurt? Is it really such
a
burden to require an Advanced to pass Element 4, or a Tech to pass Element
3,
in order to get the next higher grade of license?

See options 2 and 3 above.

The rules for the 6 license classes are already in place. So what's the
problem?

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article .net, "KØHB"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote

|
| - Allowing a free upgrade is proof that the material in the test which
is not
| taken is not necessary for the privileges.
|

Here we go again!

Where, Hans?

[expletive deleted]

it Jim, that is patently false and you know that
it is, yet you keep dragging it out as a fact.

What is false?

Here's the quote:

"Allowing a free upgrade is proof that the material in the test which
is not taken is not necessary for the privileges."

How is that patently false?

Perhaps it would be clearler stated thusly:

"If a free upgrade is allowed, some will say that
such an upgrade is proof that the material in the test which
is not taken is not necessary for the privileges."

Allowing a free upgrade
isn't "proof" of anything except that a free-pass was given, sort of
like a day of amnesty when all overdue library books can be returned
without fees.

Not the same thing at all! Fee-amnesty is a forgiveness of a violation.
Free upgrade isn't.

Consider this scenario:

FCC says new rules will go into effect on R-day (R for Restructuring)

Our Hero gets Tech on R-day minus 1

Our Hero gets free upgrade to General on R-day.

General written test not needed by Our Hero.

QED

Yes, it's a really bad idea, but it doesn't disprove the
need for proper qualification examinations.

*IF* the free upgrades are actually done, don't you think some
will say there's no reason for the General test?

It's called logic, Hans. Try it sometime.

Go join Carl Stevenson and
Ed Hare in the NTI sign-up queue. (I'd mention them by call sign, but I
wouldn't want to risk compromising your "standards".)

You mean WK3C and W1RFI?

Why are you so afraid of dissenting opinions, Hans?
What are you so afraid of?

73 de Jim, N2EY

N2EY wrote:
In article , Alun
writes:


It has worse S/N performance than SSB

That depends entirely on the type of encoding and modulation used,
doesn't it?
Can you categorically say that digital voice can *never* outperform
SSB?

No. One day it might. But not yet.


Even if the data rate is slowed down?

If there's anything that deserves spectrum space for experimentation,
it's digital modes, not analog voice modes.


DId you read the review in QST about the digital box you attach to your
HF rig?

It sounded like a pretty good thing, until they pointed out it's fatal
deficiency near the end. I shouldn't b that harsh - if it is a fixed
frequency application, then it won't be too bad.

You just have to be listening at the right frequency at the beginning of
a transmission, or it's no hearee! My guess is that anything that will
allow you to pick up a transmission in the middle of a transmission will
boost the bandwidth requirements up quite a bit.

- Mike KB3EIA -

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article . net, "Bill
Sohl"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , Paul W. Schleck
writes:

In (N2EY)
writes:


In article om,
"Dee
D.
Flint" writes:

Basically I think the ARRL Board knows that the free upgrades means
that
their proposal probably will not be adopted in this form. The FCC
has
never
gone along with free upgrades before and there is no evidence that
they
would do so now. However, I believe they tossed it in as another
idea
for
the FCC to consider in developing whatever the FCC decides to do, if
they
decide to do anything at all.

That's probably correct, Dee. And that's what bothers me!

As you say, FCC has never done free upgrades, and the last time the
issue
came
up (98-143), the ARRL proposal was for existing Novices (!) and Tech
Pluses
to
get free upgrade to General. Of course, FCC said "no way", and has
had
no
problem whatever keeping the closed-to-new-issues classes in their
database.

So why propose something FCC obviously isn't going to do? Just wastes
everybody's time.

More important, it diverts attention from the other issues.

oh wait, I think I just answered my own question...;-)

73 de Jim, N2EY

I brought this subject up with someone in the League. This exact
thread, actually. I was told that the ARRL BoD sincerely believes
(take
at face value, or not) that failure to upgrade licensees in the FCC
R&O
for WT 98-143 was not a final "no" answer.

Maybe it wasn't. But are such freebies really a good idea?

Here's your options:

We currently have essentially a 6 license system in place (even though
several licenses are no longer issued). To go from that system
to the one proposed by ARRL leaves three options as I see it:

1. The one-time free upgrade process as put forth by ARRL which takes
nothing away from anyone

Hold on a sec.

Right now there are about 105,000 Extras. And we have a few slices of
choice kHz on 4 HF bands. In my experience, QRM in these subbands is
usually
less than elsewhere in the same band because relatively few US hams have
access
to them.

If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have access
to
those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level. So giving
them
a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.
83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Same situation for Generals.
elsewhere in the same band

and immediately gets everyone into the
new 3 license system,

But nobody says why that is such a big priority, when it wasn't 4 years
ago.

I suspect the FCC four years ago (5 years ago now) expected change
over time. You are free to voice your own thoughts on need or not.

or

2. Go to the new system but "grandfather" those on current but no
longer to be issued license classes which takes nothing from anyone but
presents a dual system of licenses, rules and regulations which would
likly exist for decades until those with licenses no longer being issued
as new ended up SK or otherwise dropped from our ranks

or upgraded! Have you forgotten that any of the closed off classes can
upgrade with the required tests? The fact that so few Advanceds have
upgraded in almost 4 years is quite interesting, don't you think? Number
of Advanceds is down by only about 16%, and that includes both upgrades
and expirations.

Repeat my comment above about the unlikly QRM from former
advanced being in Extra segments...if freely upgraded.

or,

3. Implement the ARRL 3 licnense system and downgrade some
folks to new Novice (i.e. the Techs) or General (i.e the Advanced).
This last scenario takes away privileges and we all know how well
that went down in the late 60's Incentive Licensing implementation.

Or

4. Do something else.

I identified the ONLY three options on a general basis. You propose
something else but do not specify what that is. Either there is
nothing else as an option and you know it or, there is another
option but you don't wish for anyone to know what it is.
The ball is in your court. Only three options exist unless you can provide
a real 4th option.

To me the answer is clear...and, I suspect so is it also to ARRL which
is why the proposal includes free upgrades.

Why should FCC allow free upgrades today, when they said no in 1999? What
has
changed?

I don't care. In the end the FCC will decide. There's no need for me
to explain or even understand why the FCC might allow it.

Rather, it is just one of
the unresolved loose ends that was deliberately not tied up until
better
consensus emerged from the amateur radio community about things like
Novice band refarming, etc. The League official noted that the ARRL's
band refarming proposal, RM-10413, has been sitting on an FCC
official's
desk for about two years now (he claims to know the exact FCC
official,
but did not name him). Because of this, as long a wait, if not
longer,
is expected on a "final" answer concerning automatic upgrading.

I say we should judge by actions. When FCC thinksa proposal is a good
or
bad
idea, they act. How long did the whole 98-143 process take, from
initial
release of the NPRM to the new rules in April 2000?

More important, what would a lack of free upgrades hurt? Is it really
such
a
burden to require an Advanced to pass Element 4, or a Tech to pass
Element
3,
in order to get the next higher grade of license?

See options 2 and 3 above.

The rules for the 6 license classes are already in place. So what's the
problem?

Which requires enforcement authorities to keep tabs on 6
different sets of spectrum authority. You can disagree that it isn't
significant, but I'd bet it IS an issue in the FCC and other
government mindsets. YMMV.

Cheers,
Bill K2UNK

N2EY wrote:
In article .net, "KØHB"
writes:


"N2EY" wrote

|
| - Allowing a free upgrade is proof that the material in the test which
is not
| taken is not necessary for the privileges.
|

Here we go again!


Where, Hans?

We are "going" to irritate Hans again! 8^)



it Jim, that is patently false and you know that
it is, yet you keep dragging it out as a fact.


What is false?

Here's the quote:

"Allowing a free upgrade is proof that the material in the test which
is not taken is not necessary for the privileges."

How is that patently false?

Perhaps it would be clearler stated thusly:

"If a free upgrade is allowed, some will say that
such an upgrade is proof that the material in the test which
is not taken is not necessary for the privileges."

Jim, it is the truth as plain as can be.

"Wanna be a general class ham?"

"Sure."

"You have three choices:"


"1. Study and become a General class ham now

2. Study to become a Technician now, and wait a few months, then you'll
be a General.

3. Wait until after those few months, and take a General test and then
be a General class Ham."

"Is the technician class test more difficult than the General?

"Nope, it's easier."

"Wait a second! Is the Technician a higher class than the General?"

"Nope, General is one grade higher than Technician."

"So by taking an easier test now, I can get more privileges, and all I
have to do is wait a few months?"

"Yup!"

"But if I wait, I'll have to take a harder test for the same thing?"

"Yup."

"Hold on a second! If I can take an easier test now, and get the same
privileges as a harder test later, WHY should the later test be harder?
Why should those who come later have to take a more difficult test when
the test I take now is sufficient? Isn't the Technician test we take now
qualification enough?

"I don't really know!"








Allowing a free upgrade
isn't "proof" of anything except that a free-pass was given, sort of
like a day of amnesty when all overdue library books can be returned
without fees.


Not the same thing at all! Fee-amnesty is a forgiveness of a violation.
Free upgrade isn't.

Consider this scenario:

FCC says new rules will go into effect on R-day (R for Restructuring)

Our Hero gets Tech on R-day minus 1

Our Hero gets free upgrade to General on R-day.

General written test not needed by Our Hero.

QED


Yes, it's a really bad idea, but it doesn't disprove the
need for proper qualification examinations.


*IF* the free upgrades are actually done, don't you think some
will say there's no reason for the General test?

It's called logic, Hans. Try it sometime.

If they are done this way, those who want lesser testing will have a
powerful tool. "Look at all the people who are now Generals and only
took a Technician test. Give logical and compelling reasons that this
should not be a permanent thing."

How on earth are we going to argue against THAT?



Go join Carl Stevenson and
Ed Hare in the NTI sign-up queue. (I'd mention them by call sign, but I
wouldn't want to risk compromising your "standards".)


You mean WK3C and W1RFI?

I always thought your opinion differed quite a bit from those two Jim! 8^)


Why are you so afraid of dissenting opinions, Hans?
What are you so afraid of?

Just cabin fever, Jim.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...
N2EY wrote:
In article .net, "KØHB"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote
|
| - Allowing a free upgrade is proof that the material in the test which
is not
| taken is not necessary for the privileges.
|

Here we go again!


Where, Hans?

We are "going" to irritate Hans again! 8^)

it Jim, that is patently false and you know that
it is, yet you keep dragging it out as a fact.

What is false?

Here's the quote:

"Allowing a free upgrade is proof that the material in the test which
is not taken is not necessary for the privileges."

How is that patently false?

Perhaps it would be clearler stated thusly:

"If a free upgrade is allowed, some will say that
such an upgrade is proof that the material in the test which
is not taken is not necessary for the privileges."

Jim, it is the truth as plain as can be.

"Wanna be a general class ham?"

"Sure."

"You have three choices:"


"1. Study and become a General class ham now

2. Study to become a Technician now, and wait a few months, then you'll
be a General.

3. Wait until after those few months, and take a General test and then
be a General class Ham."

"Is the technician class test more difficult than the General?

"Nope, it's easier."

"Wait a second! Is the Technician a higher class than the General?"

"Nope, General is one grade higher than Technician."

"So by taking an easier test now, I can get more privileges, and all I
have to do is wait a few months?"

"Yup!"

"But if I wait, I'll have to take a harder test for the same thing?"

"Yup."

"Hold on a second! If I can take an easier test now, and get the same
privileges as a harder test later, WHY should the later test be harder?
Why should those who come later have to take a more difficult test when
the test I take now is sufficient? Isn't the Technician test we take now
qualification enough?

"I don't really know!"

That really says it all.

Allowing a free upgrade
isn't "proof" of anything except that a free-pass was given, sort of
like a day of amnesty when all overdue library books can be returned
without fees.

Not the same thing at all! Fee-amnesty is a forgiveness of a violation.
Free upgrade isn't.

Consider this scenario:

FCC says new rules will go into effect on R-day (R for Restructuring)

Our Hero gets Tech on R-day minus 1

Our Hero gets free upgrade to General on R-day.

General written test not needed by Our Hero.

QED


Yes, it's a really bad idea, but it doesn't disprove the
need for proper qualification examinations.


*IF* the free upgrades are actually done, don't you think some
will say there's no reason for the General test?

It's called logic, Hans. Try it sometime.

If they are done this way, those who want lesser testing will have a
powerful tool. "Look at all the people who are now Generals and only
took a Technician test. Give logical and compelling reasons that this
should not be a permanent thing."

How on earth are we going to argue against THAT?

Simple: We're not! We can say all we want that it was a one-time
thing,
that it was needed in order to close the books on licenses no longer
issued, that time-in-grade is worth something, yada yada yada. But in
the end, they'll be able to pick out a few dozen/hundred/thousand who
got their licenses X days before the freebie, and say, "why can't I
get the same deal?"

This sort of thing is probably why FCC didn't just grandfather all
existing Generals and above to Extra in 1968. And it also explains the
Great Giveaway of December 1952.

The newbies would have a legitimate-sounding gripe.

Go join Carl Stevenson and
Ed Hare in the NTI sign-up queue. (I'd mention them by call sign, but I
wouldn't want to risk compromising your "standards".)

You mean WK3C and W1RFI?

I always thought your opinion differed quite a bit from those two Jim! 8^)

On some things, yes. But on other things (like BPL), the three of us
are in complete and perfect agreement.

Why are you so afraid of dissenting opinions, Hans?
What are you so afraid of?

Just cabin fever, Jim.

Maybe. Or maybe, like some other rrap denizens, he resorts to anger
when lacking a logical counterargument.

wait till the RM comments....

Which brings up an interesting point....

Back in the ancient time, FCC essentially said they weren't going to
do
anything until the amateur community came to a consensus on changes.
That
all changed with the NPRM for 98-143.

It appears that folks in the ARRL BoD and Hq, as well as a few others,
knew that something was brewing at FCC, and put out proposals just
before
the NPRM hit the streets. But most of us did not know what was brewing
until proposals and the NPRM started to fly.

Then came all the comments, etc, and finally the Report and Order in
December
1999.

This time, it's quite a bit different. S25.5 is essentially gone, and
FCC does...nothing. 14 petitions from various groups, some of them
almost exactly identical (NCI and NCVEC), hit FCC, and they assign RM
numbers in batches of 7, and take comments.

Now comes the ARRL proposal. And maybe more, like Hans. Been over six
months since folks came home from Geneva and.....no rules changes.

See the difference?

The first ARRL website/QST story said the process would take 2 years.
I scoffed - now I'm wondering if they might be right!

Wanna do a proposal, Mike? Everybody else is!

73 de Jim, N2EY

The first ARRL website/QST story said the process would take 2 years.
I scoffed - now I'm wondering if they might be right!

Wanna do a proposal, Mike? Everybody else is!

73 de Jim, N2EY


Not a Bad Idea Jim, maybe if everyone just keeps dumping hundreds of Proposals
on the FCC, they might just drag it out forever.

N2EY wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message ...


some snippage



Just cabin fever, Jim.


Maybe. Or maybe, like some other rrap denizens, he resorts to anger
when lacking a logical counterargument.

I'd hope not. But it is possible. There is an interesting debate style
for sure. I've only been called stupid by two people here. Lenover21 and
Hans..... Umm, yes, your point!


wait till the RM comments....

Which brings up an interesting point....

Back in the ancient time, FCC essentially said they weren't going to
do
anything until the amateur community came to a consensus on changes.
That
all changed with the NPRM for 98-143.

It appears that folks in the ARRL BoD and Hq, as well as a few others,
knew that something was brewing at FCC, and put out proposals just
before
the NPRM hit the streets. But most of us did not know what was brewing
until proposals and the NPRM started to fly.

Then came all the comments, etc, and finally the Report and Order in
December
1999.

This time, it's quite a bit different. S25.5 is essentially gone, and
FCC does...nothing. 14 petitions from various groups, some of them
almost exactly identical (NCI and NCVEC), hit FCC, and they assign RM
numbers in batches of 7, and take comments.

Now comes the ARRL proposal. And maybe more, like Hans. Been over six
months since folks came home from Geneva and.....no rules changes.

See the difference?

The first ARRL website/QST story said the process would take 2 years.
I scoffed - now I'm wondering if they might be right!

Wanna do a proposal, Mike? Everybody else is!


My proposal would not be anywhere near as radical as the others going
around. And yes, I do think that ARRL's proposal is radical. Hans'
proposal, with all its quirks, is much more consistent and rewarding of
knowledge than the league's idea. If it were a choice between the two,
I'd choose Hans' proposal in a second.

Maybe I'll write something up, and bounce it off you.

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , Mike Coslo writes:

Even if the data rate is slowed down?

If there's anything that deserves spectrum space for experimentation,
it's digital modes, not analog voice modes.


DId you read the review in QST about the digital box you attach to your

HF rig?

It sounded like a pretty good thing, until they pointed out it's fatal
deficiency near the end. I shouldn't b that harsh - if it is a fixed
frequency application, then it won't be too bad.

You just have to be listening at the right frequency at the beginning of
a transmission, or it's no hearee! My guess is that anything that will
allow you to pick up a transmission in the middle of a transmission will
boost the bandwidth requirements up quite a bit.

It's just one try at it. There are other ways.

For example, listen to people talk sometime and notice how many pauses most
people insert in their speech. Some folks' speech is full of umms and ahhs
because they are mentally trying to "hold the VOX". (I'm not making this up -
listen to *how* people speak, rather than what they are saying, and note how
the odd patterns!)

Suppose that before modulation the digitized signal compressed the pauses
and on the receive end they were expanded. Or maybe left out if they were over
a certain length. The digital signal could be sent at a slower pace and yet
catch up during the pauses.

Maybe simply trade bandwidth for speech rate. You stop talking and the rig
takes a few seconds to finish sending - no problem!

Point is, a lot of experimentation in this area is hampered or discouraged by
the current rules. That's why folks like Hans and I commented *against* ARRL's
"novice refarming" proposal some time back, saying the kHz would be better
reused as a digital sandbox rather than simply more SSB space.

73 de Jim, N2EY

In (N2EY) writes:

In article , Paul W. Schleck
writes:

In (N2EY) writes:

In article , Paul W. Schleck
writes:

In (N2EY)
writes:


In article , Paul W. Schleck
writes:

In (N2EY)
writes:


In article om, "Dee
D.
Flint" writes:

Basically I think the ARRL Board knows that the free upgrades means
that
their proposal probably will not be adopted in this form. The FCC has
never
gone along with free upgrades before and there is no evidence that they
would do so now. However, I believe they tossed it in as another idea
for
the FCC to consider in developing whatever the FCC decides to do, if
they
decide to do anything at all.

That's probably correct, Dee. And that's what bothers me!

As you say, FCC has never done free upgrades, and the last time the
issue
came
up (98-143), the ARRL proposal was for existing Novices (!) and Tech
Pluses
to
get free upgrade to General. Of course, FCC said "no way", and has had
no
problem whatever keeping the closed-to-new-issues classes in their
database.

So why propose something FCC obviously isn't going to do? Just wastes
everybody's time.

More important, it diverts attention from the other issues.

oh wait, I think I just answered my own question...;-)

73 de Jim, N2EY

I brought this subject up with someone in the League. This exact
thread, actually. I was told that the ARRL BoD sincerely believes (take
at face value, or not) that failure to upgrade licensees in the FCC R&O
for WT 98-143 was not a final "no" answer.

Maybe it wasn't. But are such freebies really a good idea?

It may be a realistic, and pragmatic, idea when considered against the
pros and cons:

Cons:

Provides a "free upgrade" to those that haven't explicitly tested for
it.

That's one. There are others:

- Allowing a free upgrade

*can be taken as*

proof that the material in the test which is not
taken is not necessary for the privileges.

To quote from the ARRL's FAQ on their proposal:

http://www.arrl.org/news/restructuring2/faq.html

"The fact is that the examination bar has never been at a uniform height
over ham radio's nearly 100-year history."

And I say: "So what? The question is whether there is any good reason to
give almost 60% of existing hams a free upgrade to the next license class,
even though the upgrade to that class requires only a written test from a
published pool.

Were you also opposed to giving pre-1917 hams a waiver for the 20 WPM
code test?

No such waiver ever existed. What *was* waived were the 20 wpm receiving and
sending code tests, plus the Extra written test. The person who got the waiver
had to hold at least a General license, too.

Now you're being pedantic. I was describing a subset of the waiver
given, enough for the purpose of the argument. You described the entire
waiver. Both are correct, and neither contradicts my arguments.

That was long before my time, too. And it affected maybe 2% of the licensed
hams at the time.

So you might accept grandfathering, if it occurred at some asymptotic
point in the past, and only affected a small minority of hams? What
percentage would be a threshold? You say that it is wrong to
grandfather 60% of all hams, but you might be willing to accept
grandfathering of 2% of all hams. What about a proposal that
grandfathers some percentage of hams in-between? What would be your
greater objection, grandfathering all of the Techs, or grandfathering
all of the Advanced?

Remember that at some time in the future, we may be looking on this
grandfathering as occurring at some asymptotic point in the past, as
with the pre-1917 waiver above. You ask below what is the long-term
plan. I say one aspect of the plan is to be able to look back on this
grandfathering in the same way that we look upon the pre-1917 waiver.

- Amateurs who miss the one time upgrade have to take more tests than those
who didn't. How do we justify that?

It's called "grandfathering," which is done in more regulatory contexts
than can possibly be named here. Due to the need for certainty in the
law, it is nearly always based on hard cutoff dates. Technologies,
practices, and people change over the very long timeline that laws and
regulations are required to cover. It is not possible to predict the
future with certainty, so laws and regulations must change to reflect
current knowledge. It is also impractical for society to retest,
recertify, or revalidate every existing entity against current
requirements.

None of which is proposed.

But when considering alternatives, one really has to identify all
implicit alternatives, and argue for or against them (avoiding the
logical pitfall of false dichotomies, trichotomies, etc.). The status
quo, which you have advocated, and might be labeled alternative #4 based
on your exchange with Bill Sohl, is one such implicit alternative. I
would argue against that, for the reasons I have given previously
(streamlining of license classes, streamlining of band plans, reduction
of regulatory burden, reduction in confusion for amateurs and the FCC,
harmonization with the deletion of S25.5 and with other countries'
regulations, etc.).

If license classes are consolidated to a smaller number, one alternative
is simply to grandfather existing hams, which the ARRL has advocated.
One other implicit alternative (say, #5), is to make every Novice,
Advanced (and possibly non-Plus, or would that be non-Plussed, Tech)
come back in to take written tests to upgrade to the next level, or
otherwise lose privileges. I would argue against that also, for the
reasons I have also given previously (it is impractical to retest
everyone, and such existing hams are a large, stable user base such as
that in the definition of grandfathering below).


The web site for Malvern Instrumentation gives a good definition of
grandfathering in a technical context:

"Grandfathering is the practice of claiming exemption of older systems
from validation regulations and requirements on the basis that these
systems have proved their reliability by adoption for a long period of
time by a large user base."

Grandfathering in the context of ham radio recognizes that existing hams
have not only passed the tests in effect at the time, sometimes topics
not covered presently (Morse code, drawing circuit diagrams, etc.), but
have also gained experience beyond their initial exam topics. It is a
fair, and pragmatic, distinction between existing hams and entry-level
ones. Quoting again from the FAQ document:

"Passing any amateur examination does not magically result in a good
operator. It's just the key to the kingdom, so to speak. Experience and
good mentoring create skillful and knowledgeable operators, not the
relative difficulty or ease of the test."

I disagree with that assessment. YMMV.

You might argue that not every existing ham has obtained the same degree
of experience, or even a minimum necessary level of experience to be
given a free upgrade. That would be true, but ultimately would be
self-limiting, as experience would correlate with participation. An
inactive ham using no privileges today would be using no more privileges
if the FCC gave him a free upgrade tomorrow. Free upgrades are not a
perfect solution, ideal in all cases, but are a good solution overall.

I disagree. What's wrong with simply allowing Techs, Tech Pluses and Advanceds
to upgrade in their own time?

What is the sudden need to eliminate those license classes? The Novice and
Advanced have been closed off to new issues for almost 4 years, and their
numbers have declined. And from 1953 to 1967, no new Advanceds were issued. Did
any of that cause problems?

What's the rush?

Are the written tests too hard?

- Decreased reason for more than half of all hams to upgrade by testing.

No proposal is perfect. Weigh this one against the pros.

I have. The cons win.

Pros:

Avoids having to wait until the last Advanced class license expires to
refarm the Advanced phone bands.

Why does that have to be done at all?

So, are you advocating not refarming the Advanced phone bands even
*after* the last Advanced class license expires? Yeah, that's a
semantic nit-pick over what you wrote above, but then so is "You mean
the BoD. I'm the ARRL too, remember?" that you wrote below.

You're avoiding the question.

Why do the Advanced class subbands have to be "refarmed" at all? Who or what
would they be "refarmed" to? What's the longterm plan?

If you do agree that the Advanced phone bands should be refarmed at some
point in the future, at what point would you have it done? Would you
leave it to Extras, give it to Generals, or would you otherwise split it
up in some way?

Why does it need to be done at all? Is the Extra written that hard?

So you would argue that any refarming would be done at some asymptotic
point in the far future, indistinguishable at present between "decades"
and "never."


Alternatively, avoids opening up the
Advanced class phone bands to General-class hams (an effective downgrade
in privileges for Advanced, and crowding out DX users with more
U.S. hams in those bands) or opening up the Extra class phone bands to
Advanced-class hams (which would be a "free upgrade" in all but name).

Again, why not just leave those subbands as they are now?

In this day and age, regulatory agencies seem more eager to simplify
regulations. Removing regulations that are obsolete, or cover too small
an intended audience to be justified on a cost basis, is likely a top
priority for such agencies. Again, what is your timeline for change?
Decades in the future, or never?

I don't see any reason to "refarm" them at all. Not at this time, anyway.

Note that in 4 years, the number of Advanceds has dropped by only about 16%.
Seems to be a pretty popular license even today.

It sounds to me like you want all Advanceds to become Extras so that the
Advanced subbands can become General bandspace. That's not part of the ARRL
proposal, though.

No, I never said that. I would combine Advanced and Extra phone bands
into just Extra phone bands, and leave the General bands as they are.
That doesn't mean that I wouldn't support frequency shifting, such as
that proposed to make 40 meters a primary amateur allocation, or part of
Novice band refarming. Just that I would keep the proportional amounts
roughly the same. I realize that the current ARRL proposal splits up
the Advanced phone bands, giving proportionally more to the General than
the Extra phone bands on 80 and 40 meters, and proportionally less on 15
meters (no changes on 20 meters). I do not strongly support that, but
even that proposal isn't giving the entire Advanced phone bandwidth to
the Generals.

Also avoids having to accommodate a license class (Tech Plus) that isn't
even carried in the FCC database anymore, which is a records/
enforcement problem for the FCC, and requires the licensee to keep
documentation forever.

If the current rules are left alone, all Tech Pluses will be Techs in six
years, two months and 20 days or so.

If by saying, "If the current rules are left alone..." you really meant
leaving alone everything *except* the 5 WPM Morse code requirement
(which would be eliminated for these General and below under the ARRL
proposal), then, and only then, Technician-class hams will assume the
HF privileges of Technician-Plus.

Whatever. I don't see why the 5 wpm code test is such a big deal as a
requirement.

Does your "Whatever" answer above mean that you support 5 WPM Morse code
for all HF license classes, or just for Extra? If the former, then
there is a very real distinction that will continue to exist in the
license ladder whether or not it continues to be recorded in the
database. If so, then the expiring of Tech-Plus license in 6 years is
not a simplification, it is a complication.

That's still a long time in FCC
enforcement (and VEC administration) years.

Why? It's been almost 4 years since the last restructuring took effect. Look at
the enforcement letters - Techs without code masquerading as Tech Pluses isn't
a
big problem, from what I see.

You argue that it's not an enforcement problem because few or none have
been caught. I would argue that it is an enforcement problem because it
would be very hard to catch someone, especially if confirming who has
what privileges requires documentation that is no longer in the FCC
database, and might no longer be retained by hams or VEC's. The FCC's
limited staff time is probably being aimed at big fish, such as Advanced
and Extra-class scofflaws engaging in power and interference violations.

Even if you argue that FCC
action on further restructuring will take most of that six years anyway,
there are still all those Novice and Advanced class licenses that will
likely exist in the database for decades to come.

It makes sense to grandfather existing Novices to the "NewNovice" (or whatever
it is called). There are only about 32,000 Novices left now, down from just
under 50,000 after restructuring.

What *is* the problem with Advanceds just staying as they are? Have you not
read from the Advanceds who say they *don't want* to become Extras?

Which is as much of an argument as "Have you not read from the hams who
say that they *don't want* to have ham radio examinations without Morse
code?"


Why not just give all the existing Techs, Tech Pluses and Novices the
"NewNovice" privs, in addition to their existing privileges? The database
doesn't need to change at all.

Did you notice that Novices actually lose privileges? See the FAQ
document above for more details. In particular, power limits are
lowered from 200 Watts PEP to 100 Watts PEP on HF bands except for 10
meters, and 50 Watts PEP on 10 meters.

Is that really much of a problem? How many Novices are on the air today running
more than those power levels?

From the FAQ:

"The reason behind the change in Novice power limits is to avoid having
to examine entry-level applicants about how to evaluate amateur stations
for RF safety. "

I'm sure that you would argue that Technicians should retain their power
limits (1500 Watts PEP) on 6 meters and up, and I would agree, but what
about HF? Should Technicians lose privileges on those bands, by having
their power limits lowered (from 200 Watts PEP), or should there be
separate power limits for Novice and Technician on HF? This is starting
to get more complicated than before.

Not at all! Where an existing ham has greater privs, those privs would be
retained. This has been done with Tech Pluses for almost 4 years now. FCC
proposed it and enacted it, btw. Why can't it be done for existing Novices and
Techs?

So, again, as part of your status-quo alternative, you want to keep in
place the regulations and bandplans for six classes of license, only
five of which will be tracked in the FCC database six years from now.

The 1998 proposal from ARRL Hq was for Tech Pluses and Novices to get a freebie
to General - and FCC said no. What has changed that suddenly makes free
upgrades a good idea?

The ARRL argues that this is now the second round of restructuring. The
FCC prefers to revisit things every few years, and do things in
manageable chunks. What is driving this second round is the lifting of
the S25.5 requirement, the eventual need (in the ARRL's opinion, and
mine) to address the shrinking pools of Novice and Advanced class
licenses, as well as the fact that there will be no distinction in the
FCC database between two classes of licenses with different privileges
(Tech and Tech Plus) in the very near future.

Rather, it is just one of
the unresolved loose ends that was deliberately not tied up until better
consensus emerged from the amateur radio community about things like
Novice band refarming, etc. The League official noted that the ARRL's
band refarming proposal, RM-10413, has been sitting on an FCC official's
desk for about two years now (he claims to know the exact FCC official,
but did not name him). Because of this, as long a wait, if not longer,
is expected on a "final" answer concerning automatic upgrading.

I say we should judge by actions. When FCC thinksa proposal is a good or
bad
idea, they act. How long did the whole 98-143 process take, from initial
release of the NPRM to the new rules in April 2000?

More important, what would a lack of free upgrades hurt? Is it really such
a
burden to require an Advanced to pass Element 4, or a Tech to pass Element
3, in order to get the next higher grade of license?

I think the ARRL may be politically shrewder than some would give them
credit.

You mean the BoD. I'm the ARRL too, remember?

Yes, I meant the governance of the ARRL when I used the shorthand "ARRL"
in the context of offering an opinion on a BoD decision. Only they can
establish ARRL official policy and petition the FCC in the name of the
ARRL. Who else did you think I meant?

Those folks are elected and paid for by members like *me*. They supposedly
make those proposals in *my* name and with *my* support.

Well, I don't support everything in that proposal.

Welcome to the realities of representative democracy. Both of us pay
dues to the ARRL and elect Directors. They make proposals in both of
our names. I don't support everything in that proposal either, but it
is an ARRL proposal. You and I are perfectly free to submit comments to
the FCC as "ARRL Members," but the ARRL Board of Directors will submit
comments to the FCC as "*The* ARRL."


How much of the ARRL proposal in 1998 got enacted?

You will need more than a rhetorical question to make an argument here.
Instead, why don't you just come right out and say, for the benefit of
the audience, which items in the ARRL proposal got enacted, and which
ones didn't? And, of those that didn't get enacted, which ones you
think have already been given a final "no" answer?

All right.

Fact is, almost nothing proposed by ARRL Hq in 1998 got enacted. 5 wpm for
General, that's about it. On everything else, FCC either:

- said no: free upgrades, better written tests, Techs on HF CW without a formal
test

- went far beyond what was requested: 5 wpm Extra, Advanced closed off, written
testing reduced dramatically

They can turn to the reformers and say, "See, we're giving you
a both a Novice and General HF-class license that doesn't require Morse
Code." To the old-school (and long-time, dues-paying) members they can
at least imply, "We recognize that the Morse Code tests you took in the
past are valuable, so we are going to reward you with a higher class of
license. Then you will always know that you are better than anyone who
gets a General or Extra class license under the reduced standards in the
future."

Avoids the subject of why free upgrades are needed.

But does address the subject of why they may be politically desirable,
not only by leading to simplified FCC regulations, but also resulting
in a more harmonious and productive amateur radio in the future by
addressing most of the concerns of most factions.

I don't see that at all. Are the written tests so difficult, and the VE test
process so onerous, that free upgrades are the only answer?

I say they're not.

So you've said. I'm sure that you will also say this to your
representatives within the ARRL and comment on any future FCC NPRM on
the subject.

Already have. In detail. More to come, too.

I will, too. For the record, I'm not in complete
agreement with the ARRL proposal, either. I don't see the regulatory
justification for the retention of 5 WPM Morse code for Extra,

I do. Morse code is a big part of amateur radio, and having no code test at all
simply denies the reality of that.

I'm sure that you will argue in more detail than "Morse code is a big
part of ham radio, and having no code test simply denies the reality of
that." You may also have to find new arguments beyond those that the
FCC rejected in Docket WT 98-143, including yours.

and I
remain skeptical that a Novice license (even a restructured one) is
viable today.

What we have now is a system that tends to funnel newcomers into VHF/UHF
amateur radio, and manufactured equipment. And away from HF and homebrewing. A
restructured Novice could change that.

Part of arguing for a new Novice license would involve identifying what
has not worked with the present Novice license, and what changes would
somehow "open the floodgates" with the proposed future one. You argue
that most entry-level hams are being funneled to VHF/UHF. I might also
argue that there are not very many entry-level hams at all, especially
younger people, regardless of where they are being funneled. The
youngest members in most clubs locally are well into their mid-30's.
The presence of teenagers has all but evaporated.

What types of realistic homebrewing are you advocating for "NewNovice"
hams beyond 3-transistor OOK transmitters and single-conversion
receivers? Please be specific. What aspects of current communications
technology, something that would be used and would not be a trophy or
shop-project to be put on a shelf, can be realistically homebrewed via
commercially-available (and presently-manufactured) parts by high-school
age hams?

When you argue for "NewNovice" privileges, are you supporting it with 5
WPM code, or without? What if almost no one wants to sign up for 5 WPM
code as an entry-level requirement?

73 de Jim, N2EY

--
73, Paul W. Schleck, K3FU

http://www.novia.net/~pschleck/
Finger for PGP Public Key

In article , Paul W. Schleck
writes:

In (N2EY) writes:

In article , Paul W. Schleck
writes:

In (N2EY)
writes:

In article , Paul W. Schleck
writes:

In (N2EY)
writes:

In article , Paul W. Schleck
writes:

In (N2EY)
writes:

In article om, "Dee
D.
Flint" writes:


I brought this subject up with someone in the League. This exact
thread, actually. I was told that the ARRL BoD sincerely believes
(take
at face value, or not) that failure to upgrade licensees in the FCC R&O
for WT 98-143 was not a final "no" answer.

Maybe it wasn't. But are such freebies really a good idea?

It may be a realistic, and pragmatic, idea when considered against the
pros and cons:

Cons:

Provides a "free upgrade" to those that haven't explicitly tested for
it.

That's one. There are others:

- Allowing a free upgrade

*can be taken as*

proof that the material in the test which is not
taken is not necessary for the privileges.

To quote from the ARRL's FAQ on their proposal:

http://www.arrl.org/news/restructuring2/faq.html

"The fact is that the examination bar has never been at a uniform height
over ham radio's nearly 100-year history."

And I say: "So what? The question is whether there is any good reason to
give almost 60% of existing hams a free upgrade to the next license class,
even though the upgrade to that class requires only a written test from a
published pool.

Were you also opposed to giving pre-1917 hams a waiver for the 20 WPM
code test?

No such waiver ever existed. What *was* waived were the 20 wpm receiving and
sending code tests, plus the Extra written test. The person who got the
waiver had to hold at least a General license, too.

Now you're being pedantic.

I'm being *accurate*.

I was describing a subset of the waiver
given, enough for the purpose of the argument.
You described the entire
waiver. Both are correct, and neither contradicts my arguments.

I find it interesting that you mentioned only the code test part of the waiver,
not
the written test part. Some folks might think the waiver only applied to the
code
tests.

That was long before my time, too. And it affected maybe 2% of the licensed
hams at the time.

So you might accept grandfathering, if it occurred at some asymptotic
point in the past, and only affected a small minority of hams?

Depends on the situation. The old Extra waiver only began after there was no
difference
among the operating privileges of a General, Conditional, Advanced or Extra
(1952 or later). IOW it was
just a title sort of thing - didn't make any difference in practical
application. And anyone who qualified
for it was an OT from the very early days (35 years at least). By the time the
waiver meant anything
in terms of operating privileges, that gap was over 51 years.

That's a completely different scenario than offering a free *upgrade* to almost
60% of existing hams,
plus any that might get ham tickets before the rules change.

What
percentage would be a threshold? You say that it is wrong to
grandfather 60% of all hams, but you might be willing to accept
grandfathering of 2% of all hams.

And I might not. Depends on the situation.

And the more I think about it, the more I think the old Extra waiver was a bad
idea, and that there may be
no scenario that would be worthwhile.

What about a proposal that
grandfathers some percentage of hams in-between?

I say no to free upgrades, then.

What would be your
greater objection, grandfathering all of the Techs, or grandfathering
all of the Advanced?

What's the difference? They're both bad ideas.

Remember that at some time in the future, we may be looking on this
grandfathering as occurring at some asymptotic point in the past, as
with the pre-1917 waiver above.

You mean like when the Advanced has been unavailable for 35+ years and their
numbers are down to about 1% of the ARS total?

You ask below what is the long-term
plan. I say one aspect of the plan is to be able to look back on this
grandfathering in the same way that we look upon the pre-1917 waiver.

We don't look back on it the same way.

And why was it done?

- Amateurs who miss the one time upgrade have to take more tests than
those who didn't. How do we justify that?

It's called "grandfathering," which is done in more regulatory contexts
than can possibly be named here. Due to the need for certainty in the
law, it is nearly always based on hard cutoff dates. Technologies,
practices, and people change over the very long timeline that laws and
regulations are required to cover. It is not possible to predict the
future with certainty, so laws and regulations must change to reflect
current knowledge. It is also impractical for society to retest,
recertify, or revalidate every existing entity against current
requirements.

None of which is proposed.

But when considering alternatives, one really has to identify all
implicit alternatives, and argue for or against them (avoiding the
logical pitfall of false dichotomies, trichotomies, etc.). The status
quo, which you have advocated, and might be labeled alternative #4 based
on your exchange with Bill Sohl, is one such implicit alternative.

To put it simply: Just leave the closed-off classes alone, and let them
go away by attrition.

This is exactly what was done with the Advanced from the beginning of 1953
until 1967 - more than 14 years. What problems did it cause?

I
would argue against that, for the reasons I have given previously
(streamlining of license classes, streamlining of band plans, reduction
of regulatory burden, reduction in confusion for amateurs and the FCC,
harmonization with the deletion of S25.5 and with other countries'
regulations, etc.).

All it takes to keep those classes is a few sentences in Part 97.

If license classes are consolidated to a smaller number, one alternative
is simply to grandfather existing hams, which the ARRL has advocated.

A more accurate term is "free upgrade", because that's what it is.

"Grandfather" implies letting a person keep what they already have without
recertification. That's not what is proposed by the ARRL BoD for Techs and
Advanceds.

One other implicit alternative (say, #5), is to make every Novice,
Advanced (and possibly non-Plus, or would that be non-Plussed, Tech)
come back in to take written tests to upgrade to the next level, or
otherwise lose privileges.

That's the worst alternative.

I would argue against that also, for the
reasons I have also given previously (it is impractical to retest
everyone,

It could easily be done over time by saying that you either retest before Date
X
or you'll be reclassified at a lower license class.

and such existing hams are a large, stable user base such as
that in the definition of grandfathering below).

"Large, stable user base"? We don't really know about that. How many
of those folks are active? Why have so few Advanceds upgraded to
Extra?

The web site for Malvern Instrumentation gives a good definition of
grandfathering in a technical context:

"Grandfathering is the practice of claiming exemption of older systems
from validation regulations and requirements on the basis that these
systems have proved their reliability by adoption for a long period of
time by a large user base."

IOW, we allow them to continue doing what they're doing because they've shown
a lack of problems in the past. But we require more of new systems.

It *doesn't* say we allow free upgrades.

Grandfathering in the context of ham radio recognizes that existing hams
have not only passed the tests in effect at the time, sometimes topics
not covered presently (Morse code, drawing circuit diagrams, etc.), but
have also gained experience beyond their initial exam topics. It is a
fair, and pragmatic, distinction between existing hams and entry-level
ones. Quoting again from the FAQ document:

"Passing any amateur examination does not magically result in a good
operator. It's just the key to the kingdom, so to speak. Experience and
good mentoring create skillful and knowledgeable operators, not the
relative difficulty or ease of the test."

I disagree with that assessment. YMMV.

You might argue that not every existing ham has obtained the same degree
of experience, or even a minimum necessary level of experience to be
given a free upgrade. That would be true, but ultimately would be
self-limiting, as experience would correlate with participation. An
inactive ham using no privileges today would be using no more privileges
if the FCC gave him a free upgrade tomorrow. Free upgrades are not a
perfect solution, ideal in all cases, but are a good solution overall.

I disagree. What's wrong with simply allowing Techs, Tech Pluses and
Advanceds to upgrade in their own time?

What is the sudden need to eliminate those license classes? The Novice and
Advanced have been closed off to new issues for almost 4 years, and their
numbers have declined. And from 1953 to 1967, no new Advanceds were issued.
Did any of that cause problems?

What's the rush?

Are the written tests too hard?

Well? The current Extra was recently earned by a bright seven year old - can
we really say that it's unreasonable to expect others to do what she did for
the
same privileges?

- Decreased reason for more than half of all hams to upgrade by testing.

No proposal is perfect. Weigh this one against the pros.

I have. The cons win.

Pros:

Avoids having to wait until the last Advanced class license expires to
refarm the Advanced phone bands.

Why does that have to be done at all?

So, are you advocating not refarming the Advanced phone bands even
*after* the last Advanced class license expires? Yeah, that's a
semantic nit-pick over what you wrote above, but then so is "You mean
the BoD. I'm the ARRL too, remember?" that you wrote below.

You're avoiding the question.

Why do the Advanced class subbands have to be "refarmed" at all? Who or what
would they be "refarmed" to? What's the longterm plan?

If you do agree that the Advanced phone bands should be refarmed at some
point in the future, at what point would you have it done? Would you
leave it to Extras, give it to Generals, or would you otherwise split it
up in some way?

Why does it need to be done at all? Is the Extra written that hard?

Why do you avoid these simple questions?

So you would argue that any refarming would be done at some asymptotic
point in the far future, indistinguishable at present between "decades"
and "never."

I'm *asking* what the problem is with leaving some things alone.


Alternatively, avoids opening up the
Advanced class phone bands to General-class hams (an effective downgrade
in privileges for Advanced, and crowding out DX users with more
U.S. hams in those bands) or opening up the Extra class phone bands to
Advanced-class hams (which would be a "free upgrade" in all but name).

Again, why not just leave those subbands as they are now?

In this day and age, regulatory agencies seem more eager to simplify
regulations. Removing regulations that are obsolete, or cover too small
an intended audience to be justified on a cost basis, is likely a top
priority for such agencies. Again, what is your timeline for change?
Decades in the future, or never?

I don't see any reason to "refarm" them at all. Not at this time, anyway.

Note that in 4 years, the number of Advanceds has dropped by only about 16%.

Seems to be a pretty popular license even today.

Note also that several Advanceds have said they *don't* want an upgrade, free
or not.
I don't understand why, but that's what they've said.

It sounds to me like you want all Advanceds to become Extras so that the
Advanced subbands can become General bandspace. That's not part of the ARRL
proposal, though.

No, I never said that.

No, you didn't. That's why I wrote "sounds to me".

I would combine Advanced and Extra phone bands
into just Extra phone bands, and leave the General bands as they are.

That's the status quo! It's not "refarming" at all.

That doesn't mean that I wouldn't support frequency shifting, such as
that proposed to make 40 meters a primary amateur allocation, or part of
Novice band refarming. Just that I would keep the proportional amounts
roughly the same. I realize that the current ARRL proposal splits up
the Advanced phone bands, giving proportionally more to the General than
the Extra phone bands on 80 and 40 meters, and proportionally less on 15
meters (no changes on 20 meters). I do not strongly support that, but
even that proposal isn't giving the entire Advanced phone bandwidth to
the Generals.

And if nothing at all is done, the results are almost the same as what you
propose.

Also avoids having to accommodate a license class (Tech Plus) that isn't
even carried in the FCC database anymore, which is a records/
enforcement problem for the FCC, and requires the licensee to keep
documentation forever.

If the current rules are left alone, all Tech Pluses will be Techs in six
years, two months and 20 days or so.

If by saying, "If the current rules are left alone..." you really meant
leaving alone everything *except* the 5 WPM Morse code requirement
(which would be eliminated for these General and below under the ARRL
proposal), then, and only then, Technician-class hams will assume the
HF privileges of Technician-Plus.

Whatever. I don't see why the 5 wpm code test is such a big deal as a
requirement.

Does your "Whatever" answer above mean that you support 5 WPM Morse code
for all HF license classes, or just for Extra?

I support a code test for all amateur licenses, period. I think the dropping of
the
code test for the Tech back in 1991 was a mistake. I argued and commented
against it then, and much of what I said would happen has come to pass.

If the former, then
there is a very real distinction that will continue to exist in the
license ladder whether or not it continues to be recorded in the
database. If so, then the expiring of Tech-Plus license in 6 years is
not a simplification, it is a complication.

That's still a long time in FCC
enforcement (and VEC administration) years.

Why? It's been almost 4 years since the last restructuring took effect. Look
at the enforcement letters - Techs without code masquerading as Tech Pluses
isn't a big problem, from what I see.

You argue that it's not an enforcement problem because few or none have
been caught. I would argue that it is an enforcement problem because it
would be very hard to catch someone, especially if confirming who has
what privileges requires documentation that is no longer in the FCC
database, and might no longer be retained by hams or VEC's. The FCC's
limited staff time is probably being aimed at big fish, such as Advanced
and Extra-class scofflaws engaging in power and interference violations.

You might want to read the letters. They're pretty evenly distributed, license
clas wise, except for Novices.

Even if you argue that FCC
action on further restructuring will take most of that six years anyway,
there are still all those Novice and Advanced class licenses that will
likely exist in the database for decades to come.

It makes sense to grandfather existing Novices to the "NewNovice" (or
whatever
it is called). There are only about 32,000 Novices left now, down from just
under 50,000 after restructuring.

What *is* the problem with Advanceds just staying as they are? Have you not
read from the Advanceds who say they *don't want* to become Extras?

Which is as much of an argument as "Have you not read from the hams who
say that they *don't want* to have ham radio examinations without Morse
code?"

You keep avoiding the question.

Why not just give all the existing Techs, Tech Pluses and Novices the
"NewNovice" privs, in addition to their existing privileges? The database
doesn't need to change at all.

Did you notice that Novices actually lose privileges? See the FAQ
document above for more details. In particular, power limits are
lowered from 200 Watts PEP to 100 Watts PEP on HF bands except for 10
meters, and 50 Watts PEP on 10 meters.

Is that really much of a problem? How many Novices are on the air today
running more than those power levels?

Well? You know the answer as well as I: "Very few".

From the FAQ:

"The reason behind the change in Novice power limits is to avoid having
to examine entry-level applicants about how to evaluate amateur stations
for RF safety. "

I'm sure that you would argue that Technicians should retain their power
limits (1500 Watts PEP) on 6 meters and up, and I would agree, but what
about HF? Should Technicians lose privileges on those bands, by having
their power limits lowered (from 200 Watts PEP), or should there be
separate power limits for Novice and Technician on HF? This is starting
to get more complicated than before.

Not at all! Where an existing ham has greater privs, those privs would be
retained. This has been done with Tech Pluses for almost 4 years now. FCC
proposed it and enacted it, btw. Why can't it be done for existing Novices
and Techs?

So, again, as part of your status-quo alternative, you want to keep in
place the regulations and bandplans for six classes of license, only
five of which will be tracked in the FCC database six years from now.

Why not? Most of that is just a few lines in Part 97.

The 1998 proposal from ARRL Hq was for Tech Pluses and Novices to get a
freebie
to General - and FCC said no. What has changed that suddenly makes free
upgrades a good idea?

The ARRL argues that this is now the second round of restructuring.

Then why wasn't the BoD ready for it?

The
FCC prefers to revisit things every few years, and do things in
manageable chunks.

Meaning no disrespect, but - how do you know?

And if that is, indeed, the case, why not make a few changes now
(like the "NewNovice") and revisit in a few years?

What is driving this second round is the lifting of
the S25.5 requirement, the eventual need (in the ARRL's opinion, and
mine) to address the shrinking pools of Novice and Advanced class
licenses, as well as the fact that there will be no distinction in the
FCC database between two classes of licenses with different privileges
(Tech and Tech Plus) in the very near future.

Let's take those one at a time:

"shrinking pools of Novice and Advanced class licenses"

If the Novice is reopened to new issues and existing Novices get NewNovice
privileges as proposed by the BoD, the Novice shrinkage should stop.

Advanceds are shrinking at a very slow rate (16% in almost 4 years) so there's
no hurry in dealing with them.

"there will be no distinction in the FCC database between two classes of
licenses with different privileges
(Tech and Tech Plus) in the very near future"

Part of the proposal is for the code test for all but the Extra to go away, so
the difference between
Tech and Tech Plus becomes moot unless someone wants to get an Extra - at which
time all they
need do is present their old license or other document for Element 1 credit.

Or they can just take the code test!

So that's not an issue either.

Rather, it is just one of
the unresolved loose ends that was deliberately not tied up until
better
consensus emerged from the amateur radio community about things like
Novice band refarming, etc. The League official noted that the ARRL's
band refarming proposal, RM-10413, has been sitting on an FCC
official's
desk for about two years now (he claims to know the exact FCC official,
but did not name him). Because of this, as long a wait, if not longer,
is expected on a "final" answer concerning automatic upgrading.

I say we should judge by actions. When FCC thinksa proposal is a good or
bad
idea, they act. How long did the whole 98-143 process take, from initial
release of the NPRM to the new rules in April 2000?

More important, what would a lack of free upgrades hurt? Is it really
such a
burden to require an Advanced to pass Element 4, or a Tech to pass
Element 3, in order to get the next higher grade of license?

I think the ARRL may be politically shrewder than some would give them
credit.

You mean the BoD. I'm the ARRL too, remember?

Yes, I meant the governance of the ARRL when I used the shorthand "ARRL"
in the context of offering an opinion on a BoD decision. Only they can
establish ARRL official policy and petition the FCC in the name of the
ARRL. Who else did you think I meant?

Those folks are elected and paid for by members like *me*. They supposedly
make those proposals in *my* name and with *my* support.

Well, I don't support everything in that proposal.

Welcome to the realities of representative democracy.

Been there since 1968 with ARRL.

Both of us pay
dues to the ARRL and elect Directors. They make proposals in both of
our names. I don't support everything in that proposal either, but it
is an ARRL proposal. You and I are perfectly free to submit comments to
the FCC as "ARRL Members," but the ARRL Board of Directors will submit
comments to the FCC as "*The* ARRL."

Which will be done in my case, as was before. The BoD needs to realize,
however, that the ARRL's position is weakened by proposing things that
much if not most of the membership opposes.

How much of the ARRL proposal in 1998 got enacted?

You will need more than a rhetorical question to make an argument here.
Instead, why don't you just come right out and say, for the benefit of
the audience, which items in the ARRL proposal got enacted, and which
ones didn't? And, of those that didn't get enacted, which ones you
think have already been given a final "no" answer?

All right.

Fact is, almost nothing proposed by ARRL Hq in 1998 got enacted. 5 wpm for
General, that's about it. On everything else, FCC either:

- said no: free upgrades, better written tests, Techs on HF CW without a
formal test

- went far beyond what was requested: 5 wpm Extra, Advanced closed off,
written testing reduced dramatically

They can turn to the reformers and say, "See, we're giving you
a both a Novice and General HF-class license that doesn't require Morse
Code." To the old-school (and long-time, dues-paying) members they can
at least imply, "We recognize that the Morse Code tests you took in the
past are valuable, so we are going to reward you with a higher class of
license. Then you will always know that you are better than anyone who
gets a General or Extra class license under the reduced standards in the
future."

Avoids the subject of why free upgrades are needed.

But does address the subject of why they may be politically desirable,
not only by leading to simplified FCC regulations, but also resulting
in a more harmonious and productive amateur radio in the future by
addressing most of the concerns of most factions.

I don't see that at all. Are the written tests so difficult, and the VE test
process so onerous, that free upgrades are the only answer?

I say they're not.

So you've said. I'm sure that you will also say this to your
representatives within the ARRL and comment on any future FCC NPRM on
the subject.

Already have. In detail. More to come, too.

I will, too. For the record, I'm not in complete
agreement with the ARRL proposal, either. I don't see the regulatory
justification for the retention of 5 WPM Morse code for Extra,

I do. Morse code is a big part of amateur radio, and having no code test at
all simply denies the reality of that.

I'm sure that you will argue in more detail than "Morse code is a big
part of ham radio, and having no code test simply denies the reality of
that."

OK, here's some mo

One of the Basis and Purposes of the ARS is technical education and skill
development.
IOW, hams learning about how radio works. Morse skill helps in this area
because Morse-capable radio equipment can be made using a very wide variety of
technologies and complexities.

IOW, the beginner can build a very simple Morse station, and improve it as
knowledge and skill expand.

You may also have to find new arguments beyond those that the
FCC rejected in Docket WT 98-143, including yours.

That was 5 years ago. Things change. And if FCC just dumps Element 1, as they
may, the Tech and Tech plus can simply merge.

and I
remain skeptical that a Novice license (even a restructured one) is
viable today.

What we have now is a system that tends to funnel newcomers into VHF/UHF
amateur radio, and manufactured equipment. And away from HF and homebrewing.
A restructured Novice could change that.

Part of arguing for a new Novice license would involve identifying what
has not worked with the present Novice license, and what changes would
somehow "open the floodgates" with the proposed future one.

What didn't work was simply this: Getting a Novice required passing two tests
(code and theory) while getting a Tech after 1991 required passing just one. So
most new hams went for the Tech because it was perceived to be easier.

On top of that, the Novice didn't have 2 meters.

You argue
that most entry-level hams are being funneled to VHF/UHF.

They are. Look at the privileges. ALL of amateur VHF/UHF vs. four little slices
of HF.

might also
argue that there are not very many entry-level hams at all, especially
younger people, regardless of where they are being funneled.

Look at

http://www.ah0a.org

for numbers of new licenses granted each month.

In the past 12 months FCC issued 20,256 new amateur licenses. Is that "not very
many"?

The
youngest members in most clubs locally are well into their mid-30's.
The presence of teenagers has all but evaporated.

Why do you think that is?

What types of realistic homebrewing are you advocating for "NewNovice"
hams beyond 3-transistor OOK transmitters and single-conversion
receivers? Please be specific.

What's wrong with those sorts of rigs for a start? There are also
lots of good kits out there. And note that the "NewNovice" allows a wide
variety of modes.

What aspects of current communications
technology, something that would be used and would not be a trophy or
shop-project to be put on a shelf, can be realistically homebrewed via
commercially-available (and presently-manufactured) parts by high-school
age hams?

Lots of CW rigs, for a start. I built my first station from junk at age 13.

Do you think homebrewing is no longer practical? How about kits? Are
we to be nothing but appliance operators?

When you argue for "NewNovice" privileges, are you supporting it with 5
WPM code, or without?

I support a code test for *all* ham licenses. That probably won't happen, of
course.
But it's a good idea.

What if almost no one wants to sign up for 5 WPM
code as an entry-level requirement?

The ARRL proposal talks about how great the old Novice was in its heyday. 5 wpm
didn't stop hundreds of thousands of hams then - why should it do so now, when
we have more and better training methods?

The fact is that it's not the code test or the written test or the number of
license classes
which is/are the problem. It's things like lack of publicity, antenna
restrictions, and
competition from other activities.

73 de Jim, N2EY

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
[snip]
What didn't work was simply this: Getting a Novice required passing two
tests
(code and theory) while getting a Tech after 1991 required passing just
one. So
most new hams went for the Tech because it was perceived to be easier.


From the introduction of the no-code Tech until April of 2000, the no-code
Technician license required passing two tests: the Novice written and the
Technician written.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

In article , Robert Casey
writes:

I wrote:

Think about it - what exactly *should* an entry-level license do? If
it insures that newcomers know enough to keep out of trouble (on the
air, anyway,) gives them a sample of what amateur radio is about, and
inspires them to learn and do more with ham radio, isn't that just
about perfect?

An entry level license test should expect knowledge of how to know what
frequency your transmitter is on,

Display is on the front of the rig.

what mode,

Same

the subbands for which modes,

Band edges for your license. Coupla questions.

how to identify RFI problems (harmonics),

Not all RFI is harmonics, though.

simple antennas,

Why?

rules about IDing, no business traffic,
operating (pick a frequency nobody else is using to call CQ, but once
you're done it's not your frequency anymore),

All comes under rules and regs - basic "keep out of trouble" stuff.

simple emergency traffic operations.

Sure - but how do you test for it?

All except antennas above comes under "keep out of trouble"

Current Element 2 is very VHF/UHF centric, and so are current Tech
Plus privs. The goal seems to be to strike more of a balance between
above and below 30 MHz privileges.

Aside from propagation, there's really little difference from HF and
VHF/UHF.

Well, propagation is kinda why we're on the air.

But there are other differences, like:

- the amount of available spectrum (6 meters has 250 more kHz than all 9
amateur HF/MF bands put together)

- how many people over how wide an area can hear you

- how easy it is to homebrew a simple rig that can be work stations thousands
of miles away.

Questions like "Is 80m likely to have good propagation for DX during the
daytime?" don't really address issues of safety and interference to other
services.

Agreed!

A beginner
will soon learn on the air what times and bands make sense for DX
operations.

Some will, others will remain clueless for years.

One difference I note between many of today's hams and those of yesteryear is
that
in the past it seemed to me that almost all new hams had a lot of experience
*listening*
to the ham bands before they got their licenses and went on the air on the ham
bands.
In my case, I first heard hams while SWLing, and learned the code by listening
to hams
use it on the air. Plus read a lot of books on the subject. So I was no
stranger to the
bands I used when I got the license and built a transmitter.

Today it seems that many hams study the book and get the license, then set
about getting
a rig.

So change the question pool, but don't dumb it down

How do we define "dumbing it down"? If 35 questions are adequate for
all amateur VHF/UHF at full meat-cooking power, plus 200 watts on
parts of HF, shouldn't 25 be adequate for the limited privs
proposed for the Novice?

Number of questions, given all the time you want to finish the test, doesn't
make a test easy or hard. 5 tough questions is a lot harder to pass than
100 really easy questions.

Exactly. I can write you an essay question test that is super easy and a
multiple
choice test that is super hard - on the same material.

How much is it reasonable to expect a newcomer to learn in order to be
turned loose with ~100 watts on parts of HF and ~25 watts on parts of
VHF/UHF?

5 wpm code test retained for Extra only

Predictably, I do have a problem with that.

Me too. Should be at least 13 and preferably 20 wpm. Sending and
receiving.

Won't happen

Probably not, but it's still a good idea.

Why, no otehr service uses code anymore, and more modern data
modes now exist.

Because hams *do* use code today. A ham license is for operating in
the ham bands, not for using other services.

Yes, they require more advanced equipment, but
modern equipment is much more reliable than the vacuum tube stuff
we had 50 years ago.

Does that mean we don't need a theory test either?

NASA's JPL doesn't use Morse code with
the Mars probes.

The track record of failed Mars probes is pretty long, though. And
NASA has a somewhat bigger budget than the average ham...

And that's really hard DX to do.

Not with the resources NASA and JPL have available.

(why do they call it the *Jet* Propulsion Lab, anyway? They all
use rockets, don't they?)

And if you're going to use that argument, consider that there are
no skilled radio operators on those probes either.

Other services haven't just done away with using Morse - they've
done away with the very *idea* of a "radio operator". Skills not
needed or wanted. You say it still takes skill to know what band
to use at a certain time of day to make a certain contact, regardless
of mode? Look at ALE - does all that for you. No operator
needed. Just a "user".

Moreover, it can be now,
since it has not been required by the ITU for the last six months.

FCC will most probably just drop it completely.

I think they will too

Unfortunately

What does the FCC get out of requiring code, now that the treaty doesn't
require it anymore?

That's probably the key question. Which is kinda sad, because it used to
be "what is best for the amateur radio service" not "what does FCC get
out of it".

Between BPL, the flap over that popstar using the F word and not being fined
and
the Mr. Powell going nuts over a "wardrobe malfunction", I sometimes wonder....

Existing Advanceds get free upgrade to Extra,

OK

Why OK? Why not simply carry the Advanceds as a separate class, as
has been done for the past 3 years and 9 months?

Can't stand loose ends

What's the problem? FCC kept the Advanced on the books from 1953 to
1967
even though no new ones were issued and the license conveyed no
additional privileges at all.

Do those loose ends really cause any problems?

Not that I can see. But if there is a problem, well, let's call 4 years
of experience as an advanced the same as passing the old element 4B,
and make them extras.

Why? What does it hurt to leave them alone? I've read posts by Advanceds
who don't want an upgrade!

Some phone below 7100? No? Why not?

That space is needed for CW and digital modes.

Better to keep those on the Novice freqs and refarm more useful
spectrum to phone

Why reward the most spectrum-inefficent modes? Why not digital voice?

Maybe designate some subbands for new and experimental modes as
primary, and allow older modes on a secondary basis. That is, you
have to accept interference from them, and not cause them interference.

That's what K0HB, me, and others said to FCC in response to ARRL's "novice band
refarming" proposal. Reuse the Novice subbands as experimental sandboxes. Use
any new digimode you want, as long as it's documented and fits in the subband.

And encourage new methods of modulating the RF carrier directly
instead of say 2m packet where everyone just injected the modem signal
into their FM voice mode rigs. Not efficient.

Actually it was very efficient from the standpoint that you didn't need a new
rig. Almost any old 2m rig would do.

And that's the Achilles' heel - whether or not a new mode means building a new
rig.

Old Novice subbands replaced by additional CW/data

Maybe we might want some Morse code beginner subbands where new users
can feel comfortable operating and not get blown away by experts.

No real expert blows away beginners.

I've worked lots of beginners on 40 meters between 7025 and 7050.

As an
informal gentlemen's agreement. Need not be much bandwidth, a few "CW
channels" should be enough.

Channels? Ugh.

Novice power level set below that requiring RF exposure evaluation

OK

Agreed.

Used to be 75 watts input power. Make it the level that most
commercial yeacomwood trancievers produce "barefoot".

100 W HF, 25 W VHF/UHF.

How would you feel if it were decided to give all existing hams except
Novices a free upgrade to Extra, then have just two classes -
"Limited" (new name for Novice) and "Full" (everybody else)?

I would be OK with that only if the Techs got only a limited licence.

Then that'd be 3 classes then.

Which is where we are now

Why would Techs be singled out for a limited license? They have full
privs above 50 MHz.

I would have no problem with giving Generals a full licence.

By your reasoning, there's no reason to have the Extra, then. Nor its
test.

Used to be the extra only gave you a shorter callsign (if avaliable) and
bragging rights.

That ended 36 years ago!

Techs with old Element 3 (licensed before March 21, 1987) can get a
General
license *today* with no additional testing. Just show up at a VE
session with
proof of such license, fill out the 605 and pay the VE fee. Instant
General.
And if such a ham can pass the Extra written (might as well try, the
same
VE fee buys that test too), they get an Extra.

That's what I did. I did study for it, though. Wanted to "lock in" my
element 3
and element 1 anyway (so I wouldn't need to worry about holding onto old
copies of my tech license) and also might as well go for the whole
enchallida
while I was at it. Though that enchallida doesn't have a 20WPM topping...

So why are there stil over 82,000 Advanceds?

Been that way since April 15, 2000.

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article , "Dee D. Flint"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
[snip]
What didn't work was simply this: Getting a Novice required passing two
tests
(code and theory) while getting a Tech after 1991 required passing just
one. So
most new hams went for the Tech because it was perceived to be easier.


From the introduction of the no-code Tech until April of 2000, the no-code
Technician license required passing two tests: the Novice written and the
Technician written.

Right you are, Dee! I should have written "just one *type* of test".

Either way, the principle is the same - take two written tests on related
material, or one written and one code test.

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article t, "Bill Sohl"
writes:

Here's your options:

We currently have essentially a 6 license system in place (even though
several licenses are no longer issued). To go from that system
to the one proposed by ARRL leaves three options as I see it:

1. The one-time free upgrade process as put forth by ARRL which takes
nothing away from anyone

Hold on a sec.

Right now there are about 105,000 Extras. And we have a few slices of
choice kHz on 4 HF bands. In my experience, QRM in these subbands is
usually
less than elsewhere in the same band because relatively few US hams have
access
to them.

If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have access
to
those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level. So giving
them
a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Then just leave 'em be!

Same situation for Generals.
elsewhere in the same band

and immediately gets everyone into the
new 3 license system,

But nobody says why that is such a big priority, when it wasn't 4 years
ago.

I suspect the FCC four years ago (5 years ago now) expected change
over time. You are free to voice your own thoughts on need or not.

They've gotten change over time, too.

or

2. Go to the new system but "grandfather" those on current but no
longer to be issued license classes which takes nothing from anyone but
presents a dual system of licenses, rules and regulations which would
likly exist for decades until those with licenses no longer being issued
as new ended up SK or otherwise dropped from our ranks

or upgraded! Have you forgotten that any of the closed off classes can
upgrade with the required tests? The fact that so few Advanceds have
upgraded in almost 4 years is quite interesting, don't you think? Number
of Advanceds is down by only about 16%, and that includes both upgrades
and expirations.

Repeat my comment above about the unlikly QRM from former
advanced being in Extra segments...if freely upgraded.

Then what's the problem?

or,

3. Implement the ARRL 3 licnense system and downgrade some
folks to new Novice (i.e. the Techs) or General (i.e the Advanced).
This last scenario takes away privileges and we all know how well
that went down in the late 60's Incentive Licensing implementation.

Or

4. Do something else.

I identified the ONLY three options on a general basis. You propose
something else but do not specify what that is. Either there is
nothing else as an option and you know it or, there is another
option but you don't wish for anyone to know what it is.
The ball is in your court. Only three options exist unless you can provide
a real 4th option.

OK, do this:

Leave General, Advanced and Extra privs alone.

"NewNovices" get privileges to be described elsewhere.

Existing Novice privileges change to those for "NewNovices"

Below 30 MHz, existing Tech Pluses get the same privs as "NewNovices".

Above 30 MHz, existing Techs and Tech Pluses continue to have what they have
now. (everything)

If it decided to eliminate Element 1 for the "NewNovice", then Techs would get
"NewNovice" privileges below 30 MHz.

Simple, easy and no giveaways.

To me the answer is clear...and, I suspect so is it also to ARRL which
is why the proposal includes free upgrades.

Why should FCC allow free upgrades today, when they said no in 1999? What
has
changed?

I don't care. In the end the FCC will decide. There's no need for me
to explain or even understand why the FCC might allow it.

That's good - won;t have to argue against it as much.

Rather, it is just one of
the unresolved loose ends that was deliberately not tied up until
better
consensus emerged from the amateur radio community about things like
Novice band refarming, etc. The League official noted that the ARRL's
band refarming proposal, RM-10413, has been sitting on an FCC
official's
desk for about two years now (he claims to know the exact FCC
official,
but did not name him). Because of this, as long a wait, if not
longer,
is expected on a "final" answer concerning automatic upgrading.

I say we should judge by actions. When FCC thinksa proposal is a good
or
bad
idea, they act. How long did the whole 98-143 process take, from
initial
release of the NPRM to the new rules in April 2000?

More important, what would a lack of free upgrades hurt? Is it really
such
a
burden to require an Advanced to pass Element 4, or a Tech to pass
Element
3,
in order to get the next higher grade of license?

See options 2 and 3 above.

The rules for the 6 license classes are already in place. So what's the
problem?

Which requires enforcement authorities to keep tabs on 6
different sets of spectrum authority.

You can disagree that it isn't
significant, but I'd bet it IS an issue in the FCC and other
government mindsets.

Suppose we do my Option 4.

FCC has to keep track of four privsets below 30 MHz and 2 above.

73 de Jim, N2EY

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article t, "Bill
Sohl"
writes:

[snip]

If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have
access
to
those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level. So
giving
them
a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?

83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Then just leave 'em be!

That would require essentially maintaining the status quo, which
is unacceptable.

The FCC wants to simplify - the ARRL wants to create a viable
entry level class with meaningful HF privs and reasonable power
limits.

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net, I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

YM will, of course V ...

73,
Carl - wk3c

In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article t, "Bill
Sohl"
writes:

[snip]

If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have
access
to
those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level. So
giving
them
a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.

Only a few? I'm willing to share them with as many as can pass the
required tests. Particularly the *written* tests.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.

You're the one willing to share with "a few"....

And I do recall someone saying they'd **NEVER** support a reduction
in the **WRITTEN** test requirements. Yet now I see that same person
supporting free upgrades that involve not even having to take *written*
tests...

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?

Why not upgrade all existing hams except Novices to Extra, then?

83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Then just leave 'em be!

That would require essentially maintaining the status quo, which
is unacceptable.

Why?

The FCC wants to simplify -

Says who?

I recall that FCC **REJECTED** the ARRL proposal to free-upgrade Tech Pluses
and Novices to General back in 1998-99. And even though ARRL proposed keeping
the Advanced open, FCC rejected that too.

In fact it was *FCC's* idea to keep the Novice and Advanced as closed-off
license classes, rather than handing out free upgrades.

What has changed in the four years since then that now requires handing out
over 82,000 free passes to Extra, and over 322,000 free passes to General?

the ARRL wants to create a viable
entry level class with meaningful HF privs and reasonable power limits.

And that part is a good idea! In fact, it's almost identical to what I proposed
here more than 2 years ago. Except I'd require 5 wpm code...

But that doesn't explain the need for over 400,000 free upgrades.

Of course if the Novice is reopened with new HF privs, Tech Pluses should get
those same privs. And if the code test isn't required for "NewNovices", then
Techs should get those same HF privs.

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net

I'll ask again for a link to those comments.

I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

Even though it means a one-shot reduction in written test requirements
for over 400,000 hams. That's almost 60% of those licensed today.

Here's another thought: Rules changes like that don't happen overnight -
there's always a time delay between when a rules change is announced and the
new rules take effect. So if FCC simply accepted ARRL's proposal tomorrow,
they'd probably make it effective a few months hence.

So someone without a license could just take the Tech before the changes take
place, and then ride the free upgrade bus to General.

I'd really like to see a link to Ed's arguments...

Or maybe someone can repost them here...

73 de Jim, N2EY

Carl R. Stevenson wrote:
"N2EY" wrote in message

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.

So am I. They need to be tested though, and they need to take the test
that other Extra's take.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.

as are your motives.


Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?


They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?

83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Then just leave 'em be!


That would require essentially maintaining the status quo, which
is unacceptable.

Why? What happens if the staus quo is maintaned?

The FCC wants to simplify - the ARRL wants to create a viable
entry level class with meaningful HF privs and reasonable power
limits.

On what relevant statements do you base this?

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net, I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

As a person that would never support a reduction in the written test
requirements, how do you support your rationale?

Do you now support a reduction in the test requirements? Obviously the
answer is yes.

Are these benificiaries of the so called "one shot deal" qualified to
operate at the level to which they will be advanced?

Assuming your answer is yes, what is the reasoning behind those who
come after the "one shot deal" to have to take a more difficult test?

- Mike KB3EIA -

N2EY wrote:

In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:


"N2EY" wrote in message
...

In article t, "Bill

Sohl"

writes:


[snip]


If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have

access

to

those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level. So

giving

them

a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.


Only a few? I'm willing to share them with as many as can pass the
required tests. Particularly the *written* tests.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.


You're the one willing to share with "a few"....

And I do recall someone saying they'd **NEVER** support a reduction
in the **WRITTEN** test requirements. Yet now I see that same person
supporting free upgrades that involve not even having to take *written*
tests...

Technically he's right Jim. He isn't supporting any reduction in the
writtens. He's supporting not having to take a test *at all*. There is a
difference, you know!


Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.


If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?


Why not upgrade all existing hams except Novices to Extra, then?

83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Then just leave 'em be!

That would require essentially maintaining the status quo, which
is unacceptable.


Why?

The FCC wants to simplify -


Says who?

I recall that FCC **REJECTED** the ARRL proposal to free-upgrade Tech Pluses
and Novices to General back in 1998-99. And even though ARRL proposed keeping
the Advanced open, FCC rejected that too.

In fact it was *FCC's* idea to keep the Novice and Advanced as closed-off
license classes, rather than handing out free upgrades.

What has changed in the four years since then that now requires handing out
over 82,000 free passes to Extra, and over 322,000 free passes to General?


the ARRL wants to create a viable
entry level class with meaningful HF privs and reasonable power limits.


And that part is a good idea! In fact, it's almost identical to what I proposed
here more than 2 years ago. Except I'd require 5 wpm code...

But that doesn't explain the need for over 400,000 free upgrades.

Of course if the Novice is reopened with new HF privs, Tech Pluses should get
those same privs. And if the code test isn't required for "NewNovices", then
Techs should get those same HF privs.

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net


I'll ask again for a link to those comments.


I think that when you scratch the surface of most people that support
reductions in the Morse code testing, you will find that they also
support reduction or elimination of the rest of the testing regimen.
There are exceptions, but they prove the rule IMO.


I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.


Even though it means a one-shot reduction in written test requirements
for over 400,000 hams. That's almost 60% of those licensed today.

By golly, that's a lot more high level hams!

Here's another thought: Rules changes like that don't happen overnight -
there's always a time delay between when a rules change is announced and the
new rules take effect. So if FCC simply accepted ARRL's proposal tomorrow,
they'd probably make it effective a few months hence.

So someone without a license could just take the Tech before the changes take
place, and then ride the free upgrade bus to General.

Yup!

I'd really like to see a link to Ed's arguments...

Me too! I want to see if he can convince me of something I'd said I'd
never support!

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Carl R. Stevenson wrote:
"N2EY" wrote in message

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.

Only a few?

Fun fact:

When I got my Extra there were fewer than 10,000 others (other Extras, that
is). Now there are over 104,000 others. Doesn't bother me a bit. The more the
merrier - IF they pass the tests.

So am I. They need to be tested though, and they need to take the test
that other Extra's take.

Exactly.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.

as are your motives.

As I said before - all who pass the required tests are welcome in *our*
sandbox.

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?

83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Then just leave 'em be!

That would require essentially maintaining the status quo, which
is unacceptable.

Why? What happens if the staus quo is maintaned?

Good question.

The FCC wants to simplify - the ARRL wants to create a viable
entry level class with meaningful HF privs and reasonable power
limits.

On what relevant statements do you base this?

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net, I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

As a person that would never support a reduction in the written test
requirements, how do you support your rationale?

Do you now support a reduction in the test requirements? Obviously the
answer is yes.

Are these benificiaries of the so called "one shot deal" qualified to
operate at the level to which they will be advanced?

Assuming your answer is yes, what is the reasoning behind those who
come after the "one shot deal" to have to take a more difficult test?

That's the real problem - particularly for the Tech-to-General upgrade.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Hi all, on this thread,

"N2EY" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Carl R. Stevenson wrote:
"N2EY" wrote in message
Jim,
I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.
Only a few?
Fun fact:
When I got my Extra there were fewer than 10,000 others (other Extras,
that
is). Now there are over 104,000 others. Doesn't bother me a bit. The more
the
merrier - IF they pass the tests.

You all are on the wrong numbers, as you might recall, that the airwaves
wont stop ath the borders of your country. There are already hundrets of
thousands HAMS worldwide in "Your Sandbox". Dont you think that beeing a ham
requires only some simple testing? It requires GLOBAL THINKING of open
minded persons. All what I could read here on this matter is everything else
than OPEN MINDED and not a bit of GLOBAL HAM THINKING.

So am I. They need to be tested though, and they need to take the test
that other Extra's take.

Exactly.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.

as are your motives.

As I said before - all who pass the required tests are welcome in *our*
sandbox.

What is "your sandbox"? Where can I make a test to access 40m above 7.100 ?
Where can I do the test for usage of 146 - 148 MHz? This is your sandbox, I
assume. But all the other Ham frequencies are also the sandbox and
playground of all the hams in the world. Their numbers are a lot more than
just 100k.


Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?

83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Then just leave 'em be!

That would require essentially maintaining the status quo, which
is unacceptable.

Why? What happens if the staus quo is maintaned?

Good question.

The FCC wants to simplify - the ARRL wants to create a viable
entry level class with meaningful HF privs and reasonable power
limits.

On what relevant statements do you base this?

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net, I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

As a person that would never support a reduction in the written test
requirements, how do you support your rationale?

Do you now support a reduction in the test requirements? Obviously the
answer is yes.

Are these benificiaries of the so called "one shot deal" qualified to
operate at the level to which they will be advanced?

Thats the usual procedure in most countries of the globe to make a one shot
exam.

Assuming your answer is yes, what is the reasoning behind those who
come after the "one shot deal" to have to take a more difficult test?

That's the real problem - particularly for the Tech-to-General upgrade.

Effective after Aug. 15, 2003, this kind of upgrade from non-HF to HF- Hams
has occured after the WRC03 throughout the world. This has been of greatest
benefit to ham radio after its developement. Now as there is young blood on
the bands, it will keep the ITU from knibbling on the bands.

73 de OE8SOQ
Helmut


73 de Jim, N2EY

"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article t, "Bill
Sohl"
writes:

[snip]

If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have
access
to
those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level. So
giving
them
a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.

That's awfully big of you, Carl.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.

Ah, but it IS his sandbox. It is also MY sandbox and, through a
lowering of the qualifications for obtaining an Extra class license, it
happens to be your sandbox.

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?

Why should anyone obtain an upgrade without testing?

83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Then just leave 'em be!

That would require essentially maintaining the status quo, which
is unacceptable.

How so and to whom?

The FCC wants to simplify -

Really?

the ARRL wants to create a viable
entry level class with meaningful HF privs and reasonable power
limits.

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net, I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

So a "gimme" for tens of thousands is what makes sense to you, huh?
You've often written of morse tests as hoops and hazing, preventing
"otherwise qualified" people from entering amateur radio. You vowed that
you'd never support a watering down of written tests. Now you are
supporting a freebie for these thousands of "otherwise qualified"
individuals. "Otherwise qualified" must mean those people who can't
pass a required examination.

YM will, of course V ...

I don't know about mileage, but my views certainly differs from yours.

Dave K8MN

"Helmut" wrote in message ...
Hi all, on this thread,

Hello!

"N2EY" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Carl R. Stevenson wrote:
"N2EY" wrote in message
Jim,
I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.
Only a few?
Fun fact:
When I got my Extra there were fewer than 10,000 others (other Extras,
that
is). Now there are over 104,000 others. Doesn't bother me a bit. The more
the
merrier - IF they pass the tests.

You all are on the wrong numbers, as you might recall, that the airwaves
wont stop ath the borders of your country.

The "others" I wrote of above are other US Amateur Extra licensees.

There are already hundrets of
thousands HAMS worldwide in "Your Sandbox".

It's not my sandbox. It's our sandbox. And all who can pass the
required
tests are welcome! Not just "a few".

Dont you think that beeing a ham
requires only some simple testing?

Yes! The tests for a US license are very simple, yet some people want
them
to be even more simple. I don't think that's a good idea.

It requires GLOBAL THINKING of open
minded persons. All what I could read here on this matter is everything else
than OPEN MINDED and not a bit of GLOBAL HAM THINKING.

Most of what is discussed here is amateur radio policy in the USA.
That's simply a result of it being US based and in English.

So am I. They need to be tested though, and they need to take the test
that other Extra's take.

Exactly.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.

as are your motives.

As I said before - all who pass the required tests are welcome in *our*
sandbox.

What is "your sandbox"?

I don't have one!

Where can I make a test to access 40m above 7.100 ?

Move to ITU Region 2. Or convince your government to change the rules.

The reason hams in Regions 1 and 3 don't have 7.100-7.300 is that
their
governments wanted that spectrum for shortwave broacasting in 1938.
It's
not the fault of hams or governments in Region 2.

Where can I do the test for usage of 146 - 148 MHz?

Move to ITU Region 2. Or convince your government to change the rules.

This is your sandbox, I
assume.

Not mine. Ours.

But all the other Ham frequencies are also the sandbox and
playground of all the hams in the world. Their numbers are a lot more than
just 100k.

And they're all welcome. But how many of them are actually using, say,
7.000 to 7.025?

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?

83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Then just leave 'em be!

That would require essentially maintaining the status quo, which
is unacceptable.

Why? What happens if the staus quo is maintaned?

Good question.

The FCC wants to simplify - the ARRL wants to create a viable
entry level class with meaningful HF privs and reasonable power
limits.

On what relevant statements do you base this?

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net, I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

As a person that would never support a reduction in the written test
requirements, how do you support your rationale?

Do you now support a reduction in the test requirements? Obviously the
answer is yes.

Are these benificiaries of the so called "one shot deal" qualified to
operate at the level to which they will be advanced?

Thats the usual procedure in most countries of the globe to make a one shot
exam.


That's not the case in the USA. We have several classes of license,
with a very
easy and simple exam for the limited-privileges licenses and a more
advanced exam for the full-privileges license. By the standards of
most of the rest of
the world, the USA exams are very easy.

What is being discussed in this thread is a proposal that would give
more privileges to many with limited-privileges license *without* any
more tests.
I think that's a bad idea.

Assuming your answer is yes, what is the reasoning behind those who
come after the "one shot deal" to have to take a more difficult test?

That's the real problem - particularly for the Tech-to-General upgrade.

Effective after Aug. 15, 2003, this kind of upgrade from non-HF to HF- Hams
has occured after the WRC03 throughout the world.

Are you talking about the code test? We're talking about the *written*
tests.

This has been of greatest
benefit to ham radio after its developement. Now as there is young blood on
the bands, it will keep the ITU from knibbling on the bands.

How much difference has it really made?

How many countries have changed their rules?

How many new hams have gotten on the air since those changes?

How does the number of new hams since the changes compare to an equal
period of time before the changes?

73 de Jim, N2EY

Hi, Jim,

"N2EY" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
om...
"Helmut" wrote in message
...
Hi all, on this thread,

Hello!

"N2EY" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Carl R. Stevenson wrote:
"N2EY" wrote in message
Jim,
I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.
Only a few?
Fun fact:
When I got my Extra there were fewer than 10,000 others (other Extras,
that
is). Now there are over 104,000 others. Doesn't bother me a bit. The
more
the
merrier - IF they pass the tests.

You all are on the wrong numbers, as you might recall, that the airwaves
wont stop ath the borders of your country.

The "others" I wrote of above are other US Amateur Extra licensees.

HF-Bands are not only for EXTRA licensed hams from the US, and the
expression "SANDBOX" means the whole spectrum accessible for radio amateurs
all over the world. In the process of restructuring after WRC03 zillion of
hams will be able to enter this spectrum. Most of them did not pass the "US
GOLD CARD EXTRA" tests. They are given full HF privileges by the
authorities. This will also occur in the United States in the near future.
Do you realy think, your authority will step back from their voting at
WRC03? Do you think they want to loose their face towards those other
countries they were partnering at the WRC03?

They all are your fellow hams. Your friends, buddies, pals, or fellas. Why
don't you try to do the same, as the rest of the worlds hams are doing to
their hamfriends, stepping up now into the heaven of ham radio? Welcome
them, elmer them, if you think they are not skilled enough, and give them
the feeling of beeing welcome in your part of the spectrum. Exept in the US
and a few other countries, you can tell the license class from the callsign.
From all the others around the globe you cannot tell, if they've got their
HF-privileges after the WRC without passing a test. What will your reaction
be? "Go home, this is MY PARTof the spectrum"? There will be poor
operational skills around for a while. Just recall YOUR first months of
HF-operation. No master ever fell out of the blue sky, they all had to take
their lesson and do her homework and practice.

Beeing a ham worldwide includes to be:
CONSIDERATE...never knowingly operates in such a way as to lessen the
pleasure of others.
LOYAL...offers loyalty, encouragement and support to other amateurs, local
clubs, and the American Radio Relay League, through which Amateur Radio in
the United States is represented nationally and internationally.

PROGRESSIVE...with knowledge abreast of science, a well-built and efficient
station and operation above reproach.

FRIENDLY...slow and patient operating when requested; friendly advice and
counsel to the beginner; kindly assistance, cooperation and consideration
for the interests of others. These are the hallmarks of the amateur spirit.

BALANCED...radio is an avocation, never interfering with duties owed to
family, job, school or community.

PATRIOTIC...station and skill always ready for service to country and
community.

--The original Amateur's Code was written by Paul M. Segal, W9EEA, in 1928.
Nowadays there has to be added: global thinking

Most of what is discussed here is amateur radio policy in the USA.

That's simply a result of it being US based and in English.


And concerning this newsgroup as to be US-based and written in english
language is not protecting you of beeing a ham. Act like, speak like and
write like it is to the honor of amateur radio.


So am I. They need to be tested though, and they need to take the
test
that other Extra's take.

I've heard the same song across the bands after they dropped the CW-test to
5wpm. Did it help anything? Your authority ignored it. Do you think they did
change their habit to please 10 percent of the american hams?



Exactly.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.

as are your motives.

As I said before - all who pass the required tests are welcome in
*our*
sandbox.

What is "your sandbox"?

I don't have one!

Where can I make a test to access 40m above 7.100 ?

Move to ITU Region 2. Or convince your government to change the rules.

The reason hams in Regions 1 and 3 don't have 7.100-7.300 is that
their
governments wanted that spectrum for shortwave broacasting in 1938.
It's not the fault of hams or governments in Region 2.


You are right on this. It will get regulated after 2007 when the 40m
allocation will be 7000 - 7200 exclusive for all hams worldwide. This was
also concluded in Geneva.


Where can I do the test for usage of 146 - 148 MHz?

Move to ITU Region 2. Or convince your government to change the rules.

This is your sandbox, I
assume.

Not mine. Ours.

But all the other Ham frequencies are also the sandbox and
playground of all the hams in the world. Their numbers are a lot more
than
just 100k.

And they're all welcome. But how many of them are actually using, say,
7.000 to 7.025?

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?

83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Then just leave 'em be!

That would require essentially maintaining the status quo, which
is unacceptable.

Why? What happens if the staus quo is maintaned?

Good question.

The FCC wants to simplify - the ARRL wants to create a viable
entry level class with meaningful HF privs and reasonable power
limits.

On what relevant statements do you base this?

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net, I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

As a person that would never support a reduction in the written test
requirements, how do you support your rationale?

Do you now support a reduction in the test requirements? Obviously
the
answer is yes.

Are these benificiaries of the so called "one shot deal" qualified
to
operate at the level to which they will be advanced?

Thats the usual procedure in most countries of the globe to make a one
shot
exam.


That's not the case in the USA. We have several classes of license,
with a very easy and simple exam for the limited-privileges licenses and a
more
advanced exam for the full-privileges license. By the standards of
most of the rest of the world, the USA exams are very easy.

What is being discussed in this thread is a proposal that would give
more privileges to many with limited-privileges license *without* any
more tests. I think that's a bad idea.


Assuming your answer is yes, what is the reasoning behind those who
come after the "one shot deal" to have to take a more difficult test?

That's the real problem - particularly for the Tech-to-General
upgrade.

Effective after Aug. 15, 2003, this kind of upgrade from non-HF to HF-
Hams
has occured after the WRC03 throughout the world.

Are you talking about the code test? We're talking about the *written*
tests.

This has been of greatest
benefit to ham radio after its developement. Now as there is young blood
on
the bands, it will keep the ITU from knibbling on the bands.

How much difference has it really made?

How many countries have changed their rules?

How many new hams have gotten on the air since those changes?

How does the number of new hams since the changes compare to an equal
period of time before the changes?

Jim, it is not the difference in numbers, it is just the fact, that it
happend. Give yourself the cream upon the cake and think positive about the
new situation. Showing anger and agressiv language against those beeing a
"victim" of the restructuring process doesn't bring any good to the ham
family. Not in your country, and not around the world. And where we cannot
do anything against it, it's not worth to argue about it. It is NOT
negotiable.

Here in Europe, we even did'nt have the time to try negotiating. The
authorities of the various countries just signed the bill and thats it. Your
FCC should do the same. This would save you all here on this thread a lot of
nerves.


God bless, stay calm, and have a nice week

73 de OE8SOQ

Helmut

ps: meet me on echolink node # 107658 if you would like to talk.




73 de Jim, N2EY

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:

In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:


"N2EY" wrote in message
...

In article t, "Bill

Sohl"

writes:


[snip]


If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have

access

to

those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level. So

giving

them

a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.


Only a few? I'm willing to share them with as many as can pass the
required tests. Particularly the *written* tests.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.


You're the one willing to share with "a few"....

And I do recall someone saying they'd **NEVER** support a reduction
in the **WRITTEN** test requirements. Yet now I see that same person
supporting free upgrades that involve not even having to take *written*
tests...

Technically he's right Jim. He isn't supporting any reduction in the
writtens. He's supporting not having to take a test *at all*. There is a
difference, you know!

No there isn't.

Eliminating something is the same as reducing it to zero. The free upgrades
simply reduce the testing required for the upgrade to zero. Still a reduction.

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?

Why not upgrade all existing hams except Novices to Extra, then?

83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Then just leave 'em be!

That would require essentially maintaining the status quo, which
is unacceptable.

Why?

The FCC wants to simplify -

Says who?

I recall that FCC **REJECTED** the ARRL proposal to free-upgrade Tech
Pluses
and Novices to General back in 1998-99. And even though ARRL proposed
keeping
the Advanced open, FCC rejected that too.

In fact it was *FCC's* idea to keep the Novice and Advanced as closed-off
license classes, rather than handing out free upgrades.

What has changed in the four years since then that now requires handing out
over 82,000 free passes to Extra, and over 322,000 free passes to General?


the ARRL wants to create a viable
entry level class with meaningful HF privs and reasonable power limits.


And that part is a good idea! In fact, it's almost identical to what I
proposed
here more than 2 years ago. Except I'd require 5 wpm code...

But that doesn't explain the need for over 400,000 free upgrades.

Of course if the Novice is reopened with new HF privs, Tech Pluses should
get
those same privs. And if the code test isn't required for "NewNovices",
then
Techs should get those same HF privs.

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net


I'll ask again for a link to those comments.

Please?


I think that when you scratch the surface of most people that support
reductions in the Morse code testing, you will find that they also
support reduction or elimination of the rest of the testing regimen.
There are exceptions, but they prove the rule IMO.

I disagree! I think many if not most anticodetest folks just want the code test
to go away. Frankly, I'm surprised that Carl has changed his tune so
completely.

I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

Even though it means a one-shot reduction in written test requirements
for over 400,000 hams. That's almost 60% of those licensed today.

By golly, that's a lot more high level hams!

Bingo.

Here's another thought: Rules changes like that don't happen overnight -
there's always a time delay between when a rules change is announced and
the
new rules take effect. So if FCC simply accepted ARRL's proposal tomorrow,
they'd probably make it effective a few months hence.

So someone without a license could just take the Tech before the changes
take
place, and then ride the free upgrade bus to General.

Yup!

I'd really like to see a link to Ed's arguments...

Me too! I want to see if he can convince me of something I'd said I'd
never support!

I can see some possibilities:

- Free upgrading Techs would mean a lot more hams with HF, which is a big
arguing point against BPL

- Possible recruiting tool for ARRL ("look what we got you!")

- Less work for VECs (NCVEC is always complaining - see their comments.)

- (the big one): The ARRL proposal dumps Element 1 for all but Extra.
Supporting it gets Carl and NCI most of what they want in the codetest area.
And maybe the FCC will dump Element 1 for Extra too....

I'd really like to see the link. Looked around eham but can't find the comments
mentioned.

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article , Dave Heil
writes:

"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article t, "Bill
Sohl"
writes:

[snip]

If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have
access
to
those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level. So
giving
them
a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.

That's awfully big of you, Carl.

I haven't heard Carl on the lowest 25 of 80, 40, 20 or 15. Have you, Dave?

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.

Ah, but it IS his sandbox. It is also MY sandbox and, through a
lowering of the qualifications for obtaining an Extra class license, it
happens to be your sandbox.

It's *our* sandbox.

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?

Why should anyone obtain an upgrade without testing?

That's what I keep asking!

83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Then just leave 'em be!

That would require essentially maintaining the status quo, which
is unacceptable.

How so and to whom?

The FCC wants to simplify -

Really?

the ARRL wants to create a viable
entry level class with meaningful HF privs and reasonable power
limits.

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net, I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

So a "gimme" for tens of thousands is what makes sense to you, huh?
You've often written of morse tests as hoops and hazing, preventing
"otherwise qualified" people from entering amateur radio. You vowed that
you'd never support a watering down of written tests. Now you are
supporting a freebie for these thousands of "otherwise qualified"
individuals. "Otherwise qualified" must mean those people who can't
pass a required examination.

Required *WRITTEN* examination.

Note also that Carl has repeatedly said here that the current license structure
was just about right except for the code test and the need to beef up the Tech
written because it allows full power on "meat cooking frequencies" (great
catchphrase, btw). All of which made sense if you agree with the anticodetest
arguments. Now, for some reason, there's some sort of *need* to hand out lotsa
freebies. But no one will say why.

YM will, of course V ...

I don't know about mileage, but my views certainly differs from yours.

Having met W1RFI and chauffered him around Philly a few weeks back, I'd really
like to read his reasoning on the ARRL proposal. 'Specially if he won over
Carl. Heck, he might win me over!

73 de Jim, N2EY

Dave Heil wrote:
"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...

In article t, "Bill

Sohl"

writes:


[snip]


If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have

access

to

those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level. So

giving

them

a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.


That's awfully big of you, Carl.


Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.


Ah, but it IS his sandbox. It is also MY sandbox and, through a
lowering of the qualifications for obtaining an Extra class license, it
happens to be your sandbox.


Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?


Why should anyone obtain an upgrade without testing?


83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Then just leave 'em be!

That would require essentially maintaining the status quo, which
is unacceptable.


How so and to whom?


The FCC wants to simplify -


Really?


the ARRL wants to create a viable
entry level class with meaningful HF privs and reasonable power
limits.

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net, I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.


So a "gimme" for tens of thousands is what makes sense to you, huh?
You've often written of morse tests as hoops and hazing, preventing
"otherwise qualified" people from entering amateur radio.

The Morse code was keeping tens of thousands of otherwise *unqualified*
people out too!


You vowed that
you'd never support a watering down of written tests. Now you are
supporting a freebie for these thousands of "otherwise qualified"
individuals. "Otherwise qualified" must mean those people who can't
pass a required examination.

I'm "otherwise qualified" to be a neurosurgeon!


- Mike KB3EIA -

I think the ARRL is doing a super job of taking care of its own cash
cow. Ham Radio as we know it is changing in the interest of progress
with no considration for the hobby. I bet if everyone who subscribes
to QST was to cancel their subscriptions,in other words, BOY COTT the
ARRL, their trend of thought would take a sudden change of direction.
Who cares about manufactures who pay for glossy pages of advertisment
in QST. After all didn't we all used to make our own radios once.
It seems as though the reciepe is to dismantle the hobby of amateur
radio and ARRL is trying to hang on to what ever will keep them going
as money making tax free organization.
Ask your self, what has the ARRL ever done for you personally or for
anyone you know, I bet the answer is zero, nada.
I am glad that I have at least had the past 47 or so years of amateur
radio.
That is how I feel and I just want to voice my personal opinion even
though I am going to get bashed for it. Jim AF1Q


(N2EY) wrote in message . com...
"Helmut" wrote in message ...
Hi all, on this thread,

Hello!

"N2EY" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Carl R. Stevenson wrote:
"N2EY" wrote in message
Jim,
I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.
Only a few?
Fun fact:
When I got my Extra there were fewer than 10,000 others (other Extras,
that
is). Now there are over 104,000 others. Doesn't bother me a bit. The more
the
merrier - IF they pass the tests.

You all are on the wrong numbers, as you might recall, that the airwaves
wont stop ath the borders of your country.

The "others" I wrote of above are other US Amateur Extra licensees.

There are already hundrets of
thousands HAMS worldwide in "Your Sandbox".

It's not my sandbox. It's our sandbox. And all who can pass the
required
tests are welcome! Not just "a few".

Dont you think that beeing a ham
requires only some simple testing?

Yes! The tests for a US license are very simple, yet some people want
them
to be even more simple. I don't think that's a good idea.

It requires GLOBAL THINKING of open
minded persons. All what I could read here on this matter is everything else
than OPEN MINDED and not a bit of GLOBAL HAM THINKING.

Most of what is discussed here is amateur radio policy in the USA.
That's simply a result of it being US based and in English.

So am I. They need to be tested though, and they need to take the test
that other Extra's take.

Exactly.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.

as are your motives.

As I said before - all who pass the required tests are welcome in *our*
sandbox.

What is "your sandbox"?

I don't have one!

Where can I make a test to access 40m above 7.100 ?

Move to ITU Region 2. Or convince your government to change the rules.

The reason hams in Regions 1 and 3 don't have 7.100-7.300 is that
their
governments wanted that spectrum for shortwave broacasting in 1938.
It's
not the fault of hams or governments in Region 2.

Where can I do the test for usage of 146 - 148 MHz?

Move to ITU Region 2. Or convince your government to change the rules.

This is your sandbox, I
assume.

Not mine. Ours.

But all the other Ham frequencies are also the sandbox and
playground of all the hams in the world. Their numbers are a lot more than
just 100k.

And they're all welcome. But how many of them are actually using, say,
7.000 to 7.025?

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?

83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Then just leave 'em be!

That would require essentially maintaining the status quo, which
is unacceptable.

Why? What happens if the staus quo is maintaned?

Good question.

The FCC wants to simplify - the ARRL wants to create a viable
entry level class with meaningful HF privs and reasonable power
limits.

On what relevant statements do you base this?

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net, I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

As a person that would never support a reduction in the written test
requirements, how do you support your rationale?

Do you now support a reduction in the test requirements? Obviously the
answer is yes.

Are these benificiaries of the so called "one shot deal" qualified to
operate at the level to which they will be advanced?

Thats the usual procedure in most countries of the globe to make a one shot
exam.


That's not the case in the USA. We have several classes of license,
with a very
easy and simple exam for the limited-privileges licenses and a more
advanced exam for the full-privileges license. By the standards of
most of the rest of
the world, the USA exams are very easy.

What is being discussed in this thread is a proposal that would give
more privileges to many with limited-privileges license *without* any
more tests.
I think that's a bad idea.

Assuming your answer is yes, what is the reasoning behind those who
come after the "one shot deal" to have to take a more difficult test?

That's the real problem - particularly for the Tech-to-General upgrade.

Effective after Aug. 15, 2003, this kind of upgrade from non-HF to HF- Hams
has occured after the WRC03 throughout the world.

Are you talking about the code test? We're talking about the *written*
tests.

This has been of greatest
benefit to ham radio after its developement. Now as there is young blood on
the bands, it will keep the ITU from knibbling on the bands.

How much difference has it really made?

How many countries have changed their rules?

How many new hams have gotten on the air since those changes?

How does the number of new hams since the changes compare to an equal
period of time before the changes?

73 de Jim, N2EY