Jim Hampton wrote:

Fasten your seatbelts. We're going down fast and it is going to be a bumpy
ride.



Sad to say, you stand a very good chance of being right! 8^(

- Mike KB3EIA -

Dan/W4NTI wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
wrote:
wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote:
wrote:
. . .
On the other hand, I believe that we should have a good
mix of ages.

Sure - but how much is enough? If, say, 10% of the US amateur
population were under the age of 21, would that be enough?

What "dire fate" would befall ham radio if there wasn't a single
licensee under 21? What do they actaully bring to hobby which
is so
important?? Sorry, makes no sense, I just don't get it.

Whole bunch of things:

1) Youth is the future

Old thought pattern.

Not at all, Dan. It's still true.

Amateur Radio has turned into a hobby for the "older crowd".

When I was a teenager, it seemed like almost all other hams were
ancient. Not my dad's age but my granddad's age.

The youth of today are too busy getting daddy and mommy to buy them a new
cell phone and/or laptop.

Maybe where you are.

2) One of the Basis and Purposes of the ARS is education - which
includes things like educating youth. Even if a young ham does
not become an engineer or technical type, the technical background
of ham radio is a good thing to have.

So who is going to educate them?

The same sort of folks who educated me. Most of what I learned about
ham radio in my teens came from books and personal experience. Now
we have the internet too.

How many ham stations have you
seen at a school lately?

More than existed when I was in grade and high school.

For that matter....when is your club going to put
on a school demo?

Perhaps in the fall. But that's not the point, is it?

3) The ARS has the image of an "old white guy's hobby" in some
circles. While that's not an accurate picture, losing younger
hams isn't going to help things

4) Young folks have a lot to offer the ARS.

Sure they do.....so go recruit them. Stop jacking your jaws and do
something.

I have, Dan.

If it's a numbers game why not shift gears and recruit retirees instead
of chasing kids?


There you go....were zero beat now.

That's been going on for a couple decades now. Look at the folks
we did FD with a few years ago - most of the older folks in that
crowd were licensed after age 55.

The thing to do is what Dee says - recruit anyone with an interest.

Correct.

The retirees are far more independent than kids,

Very true.

they're more mature,

And they got the money to buy a rig, antenna, house and lot to put it
on...etc.

HAH! Look at the FCC enforcement letters - you don't see many
young people being cited for serious operating violations.

Of course not. They have a signal to be heard. FCC can't hear anything
below 20/9.

Sure they can, but first they need complaints from hams.

There was a guy in Florida named Flippo or some such, and now
Gerritsen in LA. They have no counterparts in the younger
crowd.

Oh really? How about that computer geek in California that hacked all the
computer systems????? He was a ham....forgot his call.

You mean Kevin Mitnik (sp?) Yes, he was a ham - but he did not violate
Part 97,
nor any other radio service (that I know of).

His crimes were all about hacking into computer systems. Which cost him
his
ham license (just like the KV fella) because FCC considers all
violations,
particularly those of the Communications Act, when granting licenses.

Flippo and Gerritsen were convicted of *radio* violations. They're both
a long way from being teenagers.

Or you can look at the behavior of one "retired from
regular hours" frequent poster here....Maturity?

on average they don't care about nonsense like
instant gratification and peer pressure
and they have the time the kids
don't have. And in most cases they also have the money the kids don't
have.

Those I'll agree with.

There are pro/con on all the above. IMHO the basic thing....recruit all
those you can and let the chips fall where they will.

Agreed.

You have to love Ham Radio to come and
join us. If you
don't.......(this will tick em off) WE DON'T NEED YA.

The trick is that if they don't love it, they won't stay anyway.

That's what I mean by "a means to an end". If someone got into ham
radio
as a means to local "honeydew" communication, they're likely to have
replaced their ham rig with a cell phone. But if they got into ham
radio
because of interest in "radio for its own sake"...the cell phone won't
change their interest any more than a wired phone.

73 de Jim, N2EY

wrote:
wrote:
wrote:

. . .
On the other hand, I believe that we should have a good
mix of ages.

Sure - but how much is enough? If, say, 10% of the US amateur
population were under the age of 21, would that be enough?

What "dire fate" would befall ham radio if there wasn't a single
licensee under 21? What do they actaully bring to hobby which
is so
important?? Sorry, makes no sense, I just don't get it.

Whole bunch of things:

1) Youth is the future

??. . ya got me. What does THAT mean??

2) One of the Basis and Purposes of the ARS

No counter, that nonsense is a long-since worn out old bureaucratic
relic/crutch which needs a serious update. Ham radio is a recreational
pastime with some value in it's ability to provide emergency comms and
not much if anything else.

is education - which
includes things like educating youth. Even if a young ham does
not become an engineer or technical type, the technical background
of ham radio is a good thing to have.

3) The ARS has the image of an "old white guy's hobby" in some
circles.

In a *lot* of circles and they're basically right. This phenomenon is a
result of evolutionary forces at work within the hobby. There are two
choices he Go with the obvious flow and accept where Mother Nature
is leading us and take advantage of it -OR- fight Mother which is
always a losing battle and try to keep applying the mores, values and
expectations of the yesteryears when we came into the hobby 50, 30 even
20 years ago. So yeah, ham radio has been moving toward being an old
white fart's RF spectrum playground for years. Once more I ask *so
what?*

While that's not an accurate picture, losing younger
hams isn't going to help things

We can't lose what we don't have.

4) Young folks have a lot to offer the ARS.

Beats me, name a few of those. Besides kids being better tower monkeys
than us geezers are.

If it's a numbers game why not shift gears and recruit retirees instead of chasing kids?

That's been going on for a couple decades now.

Don't agree. Point out one example of a formal effort to consciously
recruit older folk. Which is like all the widely publicized (and
generally failed) programs which have been targeting kids over the
years.

Look at the folks
we did FD with a few years ago - most of the older folks in that
crowd were licensed after age 55.

Exactly, you couldn't have made my point any better, thankew. If we're
playing a numbers game and/or if we're trying to find the most
promising market sector for recruiting puposes it's obvious to me that
the older crowd, particularly the retirees would be much more fertile
territory than the kids. Take a hypothetical example: The ARRL sets
aside $100k for a one-year recruiting campaign and brings in a
marketing firm to handle it. The firm gets up to speed on the
demographics of the hobby and reserches where new members are coming
from *today* and where they're not coming from. My bet is that they'd
spend the majority of the dollars on getting ads and articles into the
AARP magazine vs. spending any of it on demonstrably futile SOP ARRL
kiddie chasing expeditions.

The thing to do is what Dee says - recruit anyone with an interest.

Of course but that has nothing to do with reaching out which is where
I'm coming from. .

The retirees are far more independent than kids,

Very true.

they're more mature,

HAH! Look at the FCC enforcement letters - you don't see many
young people being cited for serious operating violations.

There was a guy in Florida named Flippo or some such, and now
Gerritsen in LA. They have no counterparts in the younger
crowd.

Or you can look at the behavior of one "retired from
regular hours" frequent poster here....Maturity?

Oh come on James, if there's a *thousand* of those twistoids and
miscreants in the hobby they'd represent a lousy 0.15% of the total
licensed population. The rest of society should be this free of
a-holes.

on average they don't care about nonsense like
instant gratification and peer pressure
and they have the time the kids
don't have. And in most cases they also have the money the kids don't have.

Those I'll agree with.

73 de Jim, N2EY

From: Dan/Diana on May 30, 9:08 pm



You have to love Ham Radio to come and join us. If you
don't.......(this will tick em off) WE DON'T NEED YA.

Ooooooohhhh! :-)

Sounds like the usual HATE group sloganeering. Do you have
that mighty macho morseman slogan on the white sheets you
wear at your "clubhouse?" Printed on old confederate flags?

Talk to the ARRL marketing folks...maybe they can make those
sheets (and presumably T-shirts for informal wear) available
by mail-order (shipping charges extra)?

Does your "ham club" have a regulation ring or do you have
your regular fight nights on bare dirt?

Sounds like "lots of fun" for a radio hobby...

From: "K4YZ" on Mon 30 May 2005 01:44

wrote:
From: Mike Coslo on May 29, 9:57 pm

NOT EVEN CLOSE. Having been IN the "space business" since
1964 and working for the manufacturer of the Space Shuttle
Main Engine...(SNIP)

Even aerospace industries have to hire janitors, Lennie...I am
sure you were very enthusiastic in your duties.


IN aerospace industry doing specific space related work:

Electro-Optical Systems, Pasadena, CA (then a Division of Xerox,
now a Division of Loral) as spacecraft fabrication engineer.
Clean room environment, strict QC, microwelding of "cordwood"
and all soldering/inspection under 10x stereo microscopes.
Unmanned spacecraft packages included Mars Mariner 67,
Quadrupole Spectrometer, ALSEP (Apollo Lunar Surface
Experiment Pacakage) SWS (Solar Wind Spectrometer). 1960s.

Rocketdyne Division of Rockwell International, Canoga Park, CA
MTS II (Member of the Technical Staff), Instrumentation
Engineering Group, doing instrumentation design for laser
deformable mirror program (an initial part of the "Star Wars"
program under President Reagan), LOX flowmeter replacement
on the SSME (Space Shuttle Main Engine - there are three on
each Shuttle), classified work for Atomics International
(a spin-off of Rocketdyne, also owned by Rockwell then).
1980s. Boeing Aircraft Company bought Rocketdyne a few
years ago and sales are pending for Rocketdyne to be sold to
another corporation. Rocketdyne was originally a Division
of North American Aviation; Rockwell bought that with the
Division being part of the package. Shuttle was designed
and built by the main aviation group.

NO custodial services performed for any employer, any time.

I was enthused by nearly ALL projects.

So, what did Stebie do after being fired as a Purchasing
Agent of a small company after less than a half year of
employment? Go back into custodial services or continue
cleaning bed pans? :-)

Temper fry.

wrote:
From: "K4YZ" on Mon 30 May 2005 01:44

wrote:
From: Mike Coslo on May 29, 9:57 pm

NOT EVEN CLOSE. Having been IN the "space business" since
1964 and working for the manufacturer of the Space Shuttle
Main Engine...(SNIP)

Even aerospace industries have to hire janitors, Lennie...I am
sure you were very enthusiastic in your duties.

IN aerospace industry doing specific space related work:

Electro-Optical Systems, Pasadena, CA (then a Division of Xerox,
now a Division of Loral) as spacecraft fabrication engineer.

Uh huh. Right.

Clean room environment, strict QC...(SNIP)

I assume that to mean "Quick Cleaning"...janitors are supposed to
do that...

microwelding of "cordwood"
and all soldering/inspection under 10x stereo microscopes.
Unmanned spacecraft packages included Mars Mariner 67,
Quadrupole Spectrometer, ALSEP (Apollo Lunar Surface
Experiment Pacakage) SWS (Solar Wind Spectrometer). 1960s.

Don't believe a bit of it.

Science fiction...er...Lennie fiction, I guess.

Rocketdyne Division of Rockwell International...(SNIP)

I didn't believe the preceeding...I sure don't beleive this.

NO custodial services performed for any employer, any time.

I bet.

I was enthused by nearly ALL projects.

But none of them involving Amateur Radio.

So, what did Stebie do after being fired as a Purchasing
Agent of a small company after less than a half year of
employment?

"Stebie" wouldn't know. "Stebie" wasn't fired, and you continue
to get other bits of information wrong, Lennie.

This has been readdressed to you before. Why do you continue to
get it wrong? Just looking at past headers on messages proves that
much.

Go back into custodial services or continue
cleaning bed pans?

I don't do either. Benefit of being an ER Nurse.

LenIdon'tCareHowLudicrousMyLiesAppearAnderson@ieee .org

Putz.

Steve, K4YZ

wrote:
Heh heh, I've heard the particular lament of "we can't get
these (darn) kids to LISTEN to us!" for lots of generations
and have read of the same thing in books printed before I
existed. :-) It's a VERY common parental angst.

Gee, Len, since you've never actually been a parent, it sounds
like you're talking about something you've never actually done..

One thing that teachers learn - if they are good at teaching -
is to NEVER TALK DOWN to students...not even if one is boiling
over inside because they "won't listen." :-) The problem is
really in the teacher being unable to properly teach. That
applies to ANY subject and ANYONE explaining something. The
"teacher" has to address the subject, put the spotlight on it
and avoid shining the spotlight on themselves. The subject
will be new to the "students" but the "teacher" is familiar.

Have you ever been a teacher of young people, Len?

"Teachers" have to know much more about the subject than
their "lesson plan." They have to organize their "teaching"
into a comprehensible, learnable flow of ideas and concepts
that "students" can mentally digest (difficult but obviously
not impossible). Knowing more about the subject than the
"plan outline," allows them to field interruptions of some
"students" about bits and pieces of the subject that they
might have already learned. Such "students" could be
lightly disciplined "in class" with something like "that's
true, but let's bring that up later after we look at the
overall picture (of this subject)." There's lots of similar
ways to keep control on "teaching" a subject to a group.

You don't seem to be able to do any teaching here, though, Len.

That's true but way too many (in here at least) want to get
"insulted" from an apparent "attack" on what they do! :-)

You get insulted by someone disagreeing with you, or pointing
out your mistakes.

Having spent over a half century IN radio and electronics,
having been to many places, being a member of the IEEE for
32 years, my observation (shared with others) is that the
"technical people" got INTO technology because it was
interesting to them personally...WITHOUT having to go
through the licensed amateur radio route. Far more non-
amateurs in professional electronics than those who might
have gotten a ham ticket during their teen-age years.

So? You've never been a radio amateur, either.

The technical phenomenon of cellular telephony has put
roughly 100 MILLION cell phones into the USA population.
[statement of the U.S. Census Bureau over two years ago
based on cell phone subscriptions here as one in three
of the population] Cell phones (little two-way radios in
themselves) are just extensions of a general need to
communicate amongst one's peer group...little different
from wired telephone use by teenagers a half century ago.

And they don't require any license by the user. They're almost
totally automatic in operation, too. Is that what
you think amateur radio should be?

Using cell phones as a "hobby" is wrong.

Says who?

Semi-private
communications is a social group act, not a hobby.

What in the world does that mean?

Those who are too IN to their particular hobby (such as
amateur radio) have lost sight of how widespread and
pervasive the entire world of "radio" has become.

Who are you talking about, Len?

They've
lost sight of that other technical phenomenon, the Internet
with its ability to reach most of the world without any
ionospheric perterbations affecting HF bands.

So what?

They've
become ignorant to the fact that the rest of the "radio"
world has gone beyond HF, that HF is NOT the Holy Grail
of communications means nor are the very early skills
of "radio operating" some kind of ultimate test of
"skill."

Who said they were?

You sound like a powerboater trying to ruin the fun of sailboaters.


True enough. History - as far as some folks' attitudes -
DOES repeat itself, again and again. :-)

Yep, we see your same old tired wornout attitudes here again
and again, Len...;-)

The paradigms of yesterday just DON'T apply today.

Some of them do. Or do you insist on a continuous techno-cultural
revolution?

Those
reasons for being have been crowded out with a cornucopia
of NEW, challenging avocations affordable by most. The
world and technology has CHANGED. Some people haven't.

Is that a bad thing? Is all change somehow good?


The inability to change, to accept change, may be a human
survival trait? The "familiar" represents "security." It
is known. To be good at something is comforting, reassuring.
To individuals. But, the overall "tribe" has accepted
change, accepted it, and is enjoying it.

Not all change is good, Len. The fact that the mob does something
does not make it better, or right.

Look at the contest between the text messagers and the Morse Code
operators. The "tribe" (the audience) was so sure the world-champion
text messagers would be faster than the Morse Code operators in their
historic costumes. Yet the Morse Code ops, going about 1/3 world
record speed, passed the message perfectly, without abbreviations,
and presented the result in written form before the text messagers
could even get the message inputted into the 'phone. (They had two
words to go - "car insurance").

And it's rather surreal to see you lecturing and posturing on
"young'uns in Ham Radio" when it was *you* who suggested to FCC that
*no-one* below the age of 14
years be allowed to obtain *any* class of amateur radio license. Yet
when asked
for examples of young people causing problems in amateur radio because
of their
youth, you could not give a single example.

Dee Flint wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote:
wrote:

. . .

On the other hand, I believe that we should have a good
mix of ages.

Sure - but how much is enough? If, say, 10% of the US amateur
population were under the age of 21, would that be enough?

What "dire fate" would befall ham radio if there wasn't a single
licensee under 21? What do they actaully bring to hobby which is so
important?? Sorry, makes no sense, I just don't get it.

If it's a numbers game why not shift gears and recruit retirees instead
of chasing kids? The retirees are far more independent than kids,
they're more mature, on average they don't care about nonsense like
instant gratification and peer pressure and they have the time the kids
don't have. And in most cases they also have the money the kids don't
have.

w3rv


I've often suggested recruiting people in the 40 to 50 year old range.
Their kids are grown or nearly so. They have a better income than when they
were younger and a little more free time than when they were younger. And
they are still young enough to have energy and enthusiasm for new
activities.

Absolutely, the 40 and up sector is where I expect most new hams will
come from. By a wide margin. There's another factor out there to
consider. The Boomers are coming up fast on their late 50s/early 60s
and this bunch is a whole *lot* more tech-savvy than my generation is
and I'm only a few years older than they are. They're some serious
candidates for recruiting into ham radio.

Personally I try to encourage everyone of all ages who shows even a hint of
interest.

I believe we all have some responsibility to Elmer newbies into the
hobby wherever they pop up. Which I call "passive recruiting". I'd like
to see some "aggressive recruiting" aimed this time at the "over the
hill gang". I don't think it's ever been tried before. Which is another
good reason to take a whack at it.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

w3rv

Your right Jim. I see no chance for the USA to stay on top. IMHO it is
due
to the liberal mindset that started in the 60s and has taken over our
public
schools and Universities.

And I see no help for it.

Dan/W4NTI



Hello, Dan

Cutting aid to eduation, the V.A., and other programs is a function of the
liberal mindset?


That is not what I said, nor meant. And you know it. However I'll follow
your trend.....

No, it is a result of idiots that happen to be Republicans.

Meanwhile, a ton of cuts for the rich. BTW, they want to eliminate the
deposit (5 cents) per can of soda (and other stuff such as beer) in NYS.
They wish to replace it with a similar *tax*! Have you noticed that they
wish to eliminate (or have they already) a deduction for energy efficient
vehicles - yet retain a deduction for SUVs weighing over .... what is it,
3
tons?

The so-called liberals wanted the deposit to encourage folks to return the
cans and not leave them all over the place. Pataki (our governor) and his
gang (republicans) want to replace the deposit with a *tax*! They can't
stand to see the money returned to the people.

The reality is that the Republicans want to kill the poor to save the
rich.

Nice try.


Oh come on now Jim. That is idiotic and you know it. The Republicans don't
want to kill the poor. They want them to keep voting for Republicans.
Hey...sorta like the Democrats, eh?

Given a few years of our troups being killed in Iraq, I'll be interested
in
seeing how they will replace them. Duty *forever* in Iraq is not likely
to
work.


Ah.....the VN syndrom is still alive and well amongst the Liberals amongst
us. Hey Jim...didn't work then....won't work now. The Liberals EXTENDED
the VIETNAM WAR.....don't ya know?


I had no problems with attacking Afganistan. Iraq, however, with its'
weapons of mass destruction .... well, sooner or later the folks with the
modest double-digit I.Q.s will wake up.

That's because you and apparantly a large proportion of the US public have
no concept at all of why we are in IRAQ. It's called divide and conquor,
it's called setting up a Democracy (or something close) right smack in the
middle of the Middle East. It's called ending this endless BS coming out of
the Jihad morons. I would rather fight them there then here. Wake
up....or would you prefere a bunch of ragheads in the streets of NJ killing
and raping your women and kids?

Far fetched? Burn a Quaron and see what the enlightened ones do. Oh,
sorry. We already saw a touch of that one.

How many weapons of mass
destruction have they found?

They all went to Syria. They are next you know.


England is really upset with Tony Blair. They
want him out. I offered to trade Bush for him, but, unfortunately, no one
wants Bush.

Oh come on now....Chiaraq is history, Tony Blair will be vindicated. The
dumb ass Britts threw out Churchill after he defeated Hitler (with our help
of course). You can't expect clear thinking folks to consider Great
Brittain as a bastion of common sense now can you?


Of course, the Democrats that get elected because of this will be blamed
when they have to make changes. Changes will have to be made, whether we
like it or not.

BTW, I didn't inhale )



Sure you did. It's ok the statute has ended by now.


Best regards from Rochester, NY
Jim AA2QA



73 old boy.

Dan/W4NTI

Here Lennie, take this quarter....and call some one that cares.

You are in serious need of a rubber room.

Dan/W4NTI

wrote in message
ups.com...
From: Dan/Diana on May 30, 9:08 pm



You have to love Ham Radio to come and join us. If you
don't.......(this will tick em off) WE DON'T NEED YA.

Ooooooohhhh! :-)

Sounds like the usual HATE group sloganeering. Do you have
that mighty macho morseman slogan on the white sheets you
wear at your "clubhouse?" Printed on old confederate flags?

Talk to the ARRL marketing folks...maybe they can make those
sheets (and presumably T-shirts for informal wear) available
by mail-order (shipping charges extra)?

Does your "ham club" have a regulation ring or do you have
your regular fight nights on bare dirt?

Sounds like "lots of fun" for a radio hobby...