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Why not more young'uns in Ham radio
Many people lament that there is not enough interest in Ham radio by
young people. There are often many reasons given for this deficiency, and somewhat less "fixes". One of the reasons that is given very often is that Amateur radio is in some sort of competition with the Internet. Let us look at this theory. What is the competition between the two? In order to use the internet, one must of course have a computer. It must be connected to the internet, through one of several methods. Once the person has learned to turn on the computer, open a few programs or so, they have the necessary skills to work the internet. Amateur radio on the other hand, requires that a radio be used, which requires some skill in operating. An antenna system needs to be connected to this radio. Whereas it is possible to have everything set up for the Ham, most young people do not have the resources to have someone set up their system. Coupled with the possibility of putting an antenna in operation that only costs a few dollars, or even less if the youngster has good scrounging skills, the likelihood is that they would design and put up their own antenna, another skill needed. So there is a large difference in the skills needed for the two hobbies. Cell phones as competition? While there is a temptation to snipe "Get Real!", I'll address those too. What would make a person decide to take up Cell phone use as a hobby? Cell phones allow you to talk to people that you know (for the most part) and operate in the same manner as a regular telephone, save that you take the cell with you, and you are generally tied in the same building with a standard telephone. It's hard to imagine someone doing that as a hobby, although there are a lot of people who spend a lot of time using them. So what makes a youngster decide to become a Ham? We can try using the input of those who became Hams at a young age. Most of what I have heard is that the person was very interested in the technical aspects involved with getting on the air. Making antennas, building rigs, and getting them on the air was a big part of the attraction. In the end, I believe that it is young people that have a technical interest that will likely become Hams. And that, I believe, is the crux of the issue. America is not a place that encourages those who might be thinking of a technical career. We have a tendency to encourage a more "pop culture" outlook, which as often as not discounts actual learning for "street cred", and actually turns the smart person into an object of ridicule. There are levels, and there are levels. If a person is intelligent, and wants a good livelihood, you will find careers that are acceptable. You can be a movie star, or perhaps a lawyer. A whole spectrum follows, but engineering and the technical fields are not very high on that list. How often is the Techie portrayed as a sort of Bill Nye, the science guy type (at best). How about the smart woman who takes off her glasses and suddenly becomes the hot babe? Professor Frink on "The Simpsons"? Pop culture is not kind to the technical types. My experiences with programs like "bring your sons and daughters to work day" shows that almost none of the kids is even thinking of a technical field. A lot want to be lawyers. Once in the past, we were scared into thinking that maybe science and technology was maybe not such a bad thing. That happened when the commies launched Sputnik. Suddenly it seemed important that at least some of our kids decided to work in the sciences. Hopefully we will decide that again without having to be shocked into it. I am pretty firmly convinced that until we stop catering to the least common denominator, until we stop marginalizing the technically and scientifically inclined, we will not find many youngsters who want to come into our hobby. - Mike KB3EIA - |
"Mike Coslo" wrote in message ... [snip] I am pretty firmly convinced that until we stop catering to the least common denominator, until we stop marginalizing the technically and scientifically inclined, we will not find many youngsters who want to come into our hobby. - Mike KB3EIA - I would tend to agree with that. All through school, I was somewhat of an "outcast" because I was interested in science and technology. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
"Mike Coslo" wrote in message ... Many people lament that there is not enough interest in Ham radio by young people. What chance ham radio had to interest young people is loooong gone. (...of course arrl will never admit to this, to them it's still sometime in 1965) One of the reasons that is given very often is that Amateur radio is in some sort of competition with the Internet. Let us look at this theory. Here's another 'white paper' theory: Kids & INTERNET: Instant Messager, Chat Rooms, Videoconference in REAL TIME with your friends, Play games (Halo for example) over a Network with your friends, send messages via cellphone to e-mail and visa-versa, computers are cheap $300 for a P4 fully loaded at C-shows...etc...etc... Kids and HAM RADIO: Radios can be expensive, big antennas needed if you want HF, all to talk to are sour old men (or retro-bigots if your on 75 Meters at night) who hate kids for the most part, packet-radio a joke at 9600 baud (circa 1981 speed!!) compared to DSL, radios expensive to fix if they break and most radios (except yaesu) are built like a cheap VCR kids on ham few and far between.....etc any questions? (it sucks eh?) |
Dee Flint wrote:
"Mike Coslo" wrote in message ... [snip] I am pretty firmly convinced that until we stop catering to the least common denominator, until we stop marginalizing the technically and scientifically inclined, we will not find many youngsters who want to come into our hobby. - Mike KB3EIA - I would tend to agree with that. All through school, I was somewhat of an "outcast" because I was interested in science and technology. And isn't that a strange thing? Women especially, can be ostracized for interest in "non-womanly" things. And that pressure to conform can be pretty tough. Good to see you didn't cave. - Mike KB3EIA - |
"Mike Coslo" wrote in message ... Dee Flint wrote: "Mike Coslo" wrote in message ... [snip] I am pretty firmly convinced that until we stop catering to the least common denominator, until we stop marginalizing the technically and scientifically inclined, we will not find many youngsters who want to come into our hobby. - Mike KB3EIA - I would tend to agree with that. All through school, I was somewhat of an "outcast" because I was interested in science and technology. And isn't that a strange thing? Women especially, can be ostracized for interest in "non-womanly" things. And that pressure to conform can be pretty tough. Good to see you didn't cave. - Mike KB3EIA - Couldn't cave because then I wouldn't be me. I simply decided I wanted to remain myself rather than become a different person. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
"Dee Flint" wrote in message ... "Mike Coslo" wrote in message ... [snip] I am pretty firmly convinced that until we stop catering to the least common denominator, until we stop marginalizing the technically and scientifically inclined, we will not find many youngsters who want to come into our hobby. - Mike KB3EIA - I would tend to agree with that. All through school, I was somewhat of an "outcast" because I was interested in science and technology. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// That explains why you were not asked to the proms. All this time I had suspected it was a result of your condescending attitude. |
One of the reasons that is given very often is that Amateur radio is in some sort of competition with the Internet. Let us look at this theory. Here's another 'white paper' theory: Kids & INTERNET: Instant Messager, Chat Rooms, Videoconference in REAL TIME with your friends, Play games (Halo for example) over a Network with your friends, send messages via cellphone to e-mail and visa-versa, computers are cheap $300 for a P4 fully loaded at C-shows...etc...etc... Kids and HAM RADIO: Radios can be expensive, big antennas needed if you want HF, all to talk to are sour old men (or retro-bigots if your on 75 Meters at night) who hate kids for the most part, packet-radio a joke at 9600 baud (circa 1981 speed!!) compared to DSL, radios expensive to fix if they break and most radios (except yaesu) are built like a cheap VCR kids on ham few and far between.....etc any questions? ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;; Nope. You just about covered it all. That leaves only the holdout dregs of CB who are now getting Tech licenses and migrating to two meters. You can hear them every day on the local repeaters. They use CB slang such as "hate and discontent", "make my phone go ringy-dingy", "I heard that, I did", and the all-time favorite? "Ten four, good buddy." They buy a Rad Shack 2 meter ht and hammer the repeaters all day long. Ask one of them to switch over to simplex and you can hear the confusion in their voices. "Simplex. What is that?" or, "I can't get out that far." Oh, and for laughs just listen to the Techies as they give each other signal reports on a repeater. They tell each other they are full quieting and have good audio. Oh, duh! The ultimate hoot for me was when last week a couple of Techies were hammering the daylights out of a local repeater. One was getting out of range and his Techie buddie suggested they move to another repeater. What did I hear but the one Tech say to the other, "I am gonna QSY to my truck." Lids. Lids and more Lids. (ditttos on the Yaesu gear. I wouldn't own anything but) |
"Jamar" nolid@nohome wrote in message ... "Dee Flint" wrote in message ... "Mike Coslo" wrote in message ... [snip] I am pretty firmly convinced that until we stop catering to the least common denominator, until we stop marginalizing the technically and scientifically inclined, we will not find many youngsters who want to come into our hobby. - Mike KB3EIA - I would tend to agree with that. All through school, I was somewhat of an "outcast" because I was interested in science and technology. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// That explains why you were not asked to the proms. All this time I had suspected it was a result of your condescending attitude. And who says I was not asked to the proms? Little do you know. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
"Jamar" nolid@nohome wrote in message ... "Dee Flint" wrote in message ... "Mike Coslo" wrote in message ... [snip] I am pretty firmly convinced that until we stop catering to the least common denominator, until we stop marginalizing the technically and scientifically inclined, we will not find many youngsters who want to come into our hobby. - Mike KB3EIA - I would tend to agree with that. All through school, I was somewhat of an "outcast" because I was interested in science and technology. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// That explains why you were not asked to the proms. All this time I had suspected it was a result of your condescending attitude. Well I guess that an interesting discussion degenerated at the 3rd post ...... 73 safe holiday everyone ....... Tom KI3R Belle Vernon Pa |
Kids & INTERNET: Instant Messager, Chat Rooms, Videoconference in REAL TIME with your friends, Play games (Halo for example) over a Network with your friends, send messages via cellphone to e-mail and visa-versa, computers are cheap $300 for a P4 fully loaded at C-shows...etc...etc... I'll buy that ..... Kids and HAM RADIO: Radios can be expensive, big antennas needed if you want HF, Big maybe ...expensive ...like anything else what you want to put into it ..... all to talk to are sour old men (or retro-bigots if your on 75 Meters at night) who hate kids for the most part, Ah com on ..here we go again with this crap ..... this happens in all endeavors ... avoid those idiots by a turn of the dial or better yet get on CW where this "effluent" isn't present .... packet-radio a joke at 9600 baud (circa 1981 speed!!) Agreed ...... what started out as a interesting meld of computer hi-tech into the service fizzled ...... perhaps more by govt. regulation than anything else ..... not an expert here ..... compared to DSL, radios expensive to fix if they break Yes and no ...... simple homemade stuff is easy to fix if you built it .... I hate to use the old saw but I have yet to see a computer whiz etch his own motherboard of late ...... and most radios (except yaesu) are built like a cheap VCR huh ?????? I have many radios that have gone for years without a problem ..... kids on ham few and far between.....etc any questions? Yep ...what is your call ...... and have you helped any kids get their tickets of late ..... (it sucks eh?) Nope ....but your attitude sure does ..... 73 Tom KI3R Belle Vernon Pa .... |
On Sat, 28 May 2005 19:42:14 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote:
Many people lament that there is not enough interest in Ham radio by young people. There are often many reasons given for this deficiency, and somewhat less "fixes". One of the reasons that is given very often is that Amateur radio is in some sort of competition with the Internet. Let us look at this theory. What is the competition between the two? In order to use the internet, one must of course have a computer. It must be connected to the internet, through one of several methods. Once the person has learned to turn on the computer, open a few programs or so, they have the necessary skills to work the internet. Amateur radio on the other hand, requires that a radio be used, which requires some skill in operating. An antenna system needs to be connected to this radio. Whereas it is possible to have everything set up for the Ham, most young people do not have the resources to have someone set up their system. Coupled with the possibility of putting an antenna in operation that only costs a few dollars, or even less if the youngster has good scrounging skills, the likelihood is that they would design and put up their own antenna, another skill needed. So there is a large difference in the skills needed for the two hobbies. Cell phones as competition? While there is a temptation to snipe "Get Real!", I'll address those too. What would make a person decide to take up Cell phone use as a hobby? Cell phones allow you to talk to people that you know (for the most part) and operate in the same manner as a regular telephone, save that you take the cell with you, and you are generally tied in the same building with a standard telephone. It's hard to imagine someone doing that as a hobby, although there are a lot of people who spend a lot of time using them. So what makes a youngster decide to become a Ham? We can try using the input of those who became Hams at a young age. Most of what I have heard is that the person was very interested in the technical aspects involved with getting on the air. Making antennas, building rigs, and getting them on the air was a big part of the attraction. In the end, I believe that it is young people that have a technical interest that will likely become Hams. And that, I believe, is the crux of the issue. America is not a place that encourages those who might be thinking of a technical career. We have a tendency to encourage a more "pop culture" outlook, which as often as not discounts actual learning for "street cred", and actually turns the smart person into an object of ridicule. There are levels, and there are levels. If a person is intelligent, and wants a good livelihood, you will find careers that are acceptable. You can be a movie star, or perhaps a lawyer. A whole spectrum follows, but engineering and the technical fields are not very high on that list. How often is the Techie portrayed as a sort of Bill Nye, the science guy type (at best). How about the smart woman who takes off her glasses and suddenly becomes the hot babe? Professor Frink on "The Simpsons"? Pop culture is not kind to the technical types. My experiences with programs like "bring your sons and daughters to work day" shows that almost none of the kids is even thinking of a technical field. A lot want to be lawyers. Once in the past, we were scared into thinking that maybe science and technology was maybe not such a bad thing. That happened when the commies launched Sputnik. Suddenly it seemed important that at least some of our kids decided to work in the sciences. Hopefully we will decide that again without having to be shocked into it. I am pretty firmly convinced that until we stop catering to the least common denominator, until we stop marginalizing the technically and scientifically inclined, we will not find many youngsters who want to come into our hobby. - Mike KB3EIA - The answer is simple: They're lazy and have NO imaginations. They want the easy, don't have to do/learn anything way. Look at all the retards on thier cellphones EVERY FREAKING MINUTE of the day. |
Nope. You just about covered it all. That leaves only the holdout dregs of CB who are now getting Tech licenses and migrating to two meters. Used to be that the hams came mostly from the SWL fraternity ...... we have had CB converts test and upgrade with no difficulty .... problems on the repeaters .....any were solved by a phone call to that person not by an on air "dressing down" You can hear them every day on the local repeaters. They use CB slang such as "hate and discontent", "make my phone go ringy-dingy", "I heard that, I did", and the all-time favorite? "Ten four, good buddy." Did you give the guys a call on the phone and explain procedure or write them a note ??? We all were young once either in age or experience .....at 57 I still routinely put my foot in my mouth ... They buy a Rad Shack 2 meter ht and hammer the repeaters all day long. Ask one of them to switch over to simplex and you can hear the confusion in their voices. Here is where I have to agree with you Terry ..... better yet ask them to switch over to CW or the digital modes on HF. The problem I see is that we don't have enough people upgrading to HF or using any mode but VHF FM. "Simplex. What is that?" or, "I can't get out that far." Oh, and for laughs just listen to the Techies as they give each other signal reports on a repeater. They tell each other they are full quieting and have good audio. Oh, duh! Again our job as members of this "fraternity" is to be a guide to to new guys or ladys. Always remember the stupid things that we have done or said in the past ....and boy do I have a lot of those ...... The ultimate hoot for me was when last week a couple of Techies were hammering the daylights out of a local repeater. One was getting out of range and his Techie buddie suggested they move to another repeater. What did I hear but the one Tech say to the other, "I am gonna QSY to my truck." Lids. Lids and more Lids. No just newcombers for the most part who need a little guidence but I do know guys who have been in this line for 50 years who would fit the Lid title ....... (ditttos on the Yaesu gear. I wouldn't own anything but) I'm looking at a 897 for the car ...looks pretty neat ..... Takle care all 73 Tom KI3R Belle Vernon Pa. |
"garigue" wrote in message ... "Jamar" nolid@nohome wrote in message ... "Dee Flint" wrote in message ... "Mike Coslo" wrote in message ... [snip] I am pretty firmly convinced that until we stop catering to the least common denominator, until we stop marginalizing the technically and scientifically inclined, we will not find many youngsters who want to come into our hobby. - Mike KB3EIA - I would tend to agree with that. All through school, I was somewhat of an "outcast" because I was interested in science and technology. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// That explains why you were not asked to the proms. All this time I had suspected it was a result of your condescending attitude. Well I guess that an interesting discussion degenerated at the 3rd post ..... 73 safe holiday everyone ....... Tom KI3R Belle Vernon Pa Unfortunately that's the usual pattern. It's very difficult to keep a good discussion going without someone putting in derogatory remarks just to feed their own egos. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
Joe Cameltoe ) writes: On Sat, 28 May 2005 19:42:14 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote: Many people lament that there is not enough interest in Ham radio by young people. There are often many reasons given for this deficiency, and somewhat less "fixes". One of the reasons that is given very often is that Amateur radio is in some sort of competition with the Internet. Let us look at this theory. What is the competition between the two? In order to use the internet, one must of course have a computer. It must be connected to the internet, through one of several methods. Once the person has learned to turn on the computer, open a few programs or so, they have the necessary skills to work the internet. Amateur radio on the other hand, requires that a radio be used, which requires some skill in operating. An antenna system needs to be connected to this radio. Whereas it is possible to have everything set up for the Ham, most young people do not have the resources to have someone set up their system. Coupled with the possibility of putting an antenna in operation that only costs a few dollars, or even less if the youngster has good scrounging skills, the likelihood is that they would design and put up their own antenna, another skill needed. So there is a large difference in the skills needed for the two hobbies. Cell phones as competition? While there is a temptation to snipe "Get Real!", I'll address those too. What would make a person decide to take up Cell phone use as a hobby? Cell phones allow you to talk to people that you know (for the most part) and operate in the same manner as a regular telephone, save that you take the cell with you, and you are generally tied in the same building with a standard telephone. It's hard to imagine someone doing that as a hobby, although there are a lot of people who spend a lot of time using them. So what makes a youngster decide to become a Ham? We can try using the input of those who became Hams at a young age. Most of what I have heard is that the person was very interested in the technical aspects involved with getting on the air. Making antennas, building rigs, and getting them on the air was a big part of the attraction. In the end, I believe that it is young people that have a technical interest that will likely become Hams. And that, I believe, is the crux of the issue. America is not a place that encourages those who might be thinking of a technical career. We have a tendency to encourage a more "pop culture" outlook, which as often as not discounts actual learning for "street cred", and actually turns the smart person into an object of ridicule. There are levels, and there are levels. If a person is intelligent, and wants a good livelihood, you will find careers that are acceptable. You can be a movie star, or perhaps a lawyer. A whole spectrum follows, but engineering and the technical fields are not very high on that list. How often is the Techie portrayed as a sort of Bill Nye, the science guy type (at best). How about the smart woman who takes off her glasses and suddenly becomes the hot babe? Professor Frink on "The Simpsons"? Pop culture is not kind to the technical types. My experiences with programs like "bring your sons and daughters to work day" shows that almost none of the kids is even thinking of a technical field. A lot want to be lawyers. Once in the past, we were scared into thinking that maybe science and technology was maybe not such a bad thing. That happened when the commies launched Sputnik. Suddenly it seemed important that at least some of our kids decided to work in the sciences. Hopefully we will decide that again without having to be shocked into it. I am pretty firmly convinced that until we stop catering to the least common denominator, until we stop marginalizing the technically and scientifically inclined, we will not find many youngsters who want to come into our hobby. - Mike KB3EIA - The answer is simple: They're lazy and have NO imaginations. They want the easy, don't have to do/learn anything way. Look at all the retards on thier cellphones EVERY FREAKING MINUTE of the day. The problem with that is that you've just alienated the very group that needs to be part of amateur radio (for the hobby, for them). YOu can't go into a room full of people you want to attract and call them names. I do argue that the failure of amateur radio to attract young people is because we a) aren't trying and b)don't know how. The minute you characterize all the young as some monolithic group, you are saying you don't know the kids, and if you don't know them, then there's no way of bridging that gap. I'm not sure how we do it, but I do know that one has to get into their heads to reach them. Keep in mind that decades ago, amateur radio was hardly a mainstreem interest among the population. SOme would be interested, many would not. There'd be people like you back then characterizing the young people, minus the cellphones, basically saying the same thing. Ultimately, little has changed. Michael VE2BVW |
"Mike Coslo" wrote in message ... Many people lament that there is not enough interest in Ham radio by young people. There are often many reasons given for this deficiency, and somewhat less "fixes". One of the reasons that is given very often is that Amateur radio is in some sort of competition with the Internet. Let us look at this theory. What is the competition between the two? In order to use the internet, one must of course have a computer. It must be connected to the internet, through one of several methods. Once the person has learned to turn on the computer, open a few programs or so, they have the necessary skills to work the internet. Amateur radio on the other hand, requires that a radio be used, which requires some skill in operating. An antenna system needs to be connected to this radio. Whereas it is possible to have everything set up for the Ham, most young people do not have the resources to have someone set up their system. Coupled with the possibility of putting an antenna in operation that only costs a few dollars, or even less if the youngster has good scrounging skills, the likelihood is that they would design and put up their own antenna, another skill needed. So there is a large difference in the skills needed for the two hobbies. Cell phones as competition? While there is a temptation to snipe "Get Real!", I'll address those too. What would make a person decide to take up Cell phone use as a hobby? Cell phones allow you to talk to people that you know (for the most part) and operate in the same manner as a regular telephone, save that you take the cell with you, and you are generally tied in the same building with a standard telephone. It's hard to imagine someone doing that as a hobby, although there are a lot of people who spend a lot of time using them. So what makes a youngster decide to become a Ham? We can try using the input of those who became Hams at a young age. Most of what I have heard is that the person was very interested in the technical aspects involved with getting on the air. Making antennas, building rigs, and getting them on the air was a big part of the attraction. In the end, I believe that it is young people that have a technical interest that will likely become Hams. And that, I believe, is the crux of the issue. America is not a place that encourages those who might be thinking of a technical career. We have a tendency to encourage a more "pop culture" outlook, which as often as not discounts actual learning for "street cred", and actually turns the smart person into an object of ridicule. There are levels, and there are levels. If a person is intelligent, and wants a good livelihood, you will find careers that are acceptable. You can be a movie star, or perhaps a lawyer. A whole spectrum follows, but engineering and the technical fields are not very high on that list. How often is the Techie portrayed as a sort of Bill Nye, the science guy type (at best). How about the smart woman who takes off her glasses and suddenly becomes the hot babe? Professor Frink on "The Simpsons"? Pop culture is not kind to the technical types. My experiences with programs like "bring your sons and daughters to work day" shows that almost none of the kids is even thinking of a technical field. A lot want to be lawyers. Once in the past, we were scared into thinking that maybe science and technology was maybe not such a bad thing. That happened when the commies launched Sputnik. Suddenly it seemed important that at least some of our kids decided to work in the sciences. Hopefully we will decide that again without having to be shocked into it. I am pretty firmly convinced that until we stop catering to the least common denominator, until we stop marginalizing the technically and scientifically inclined, we will not find many youngsters who want to come into our hobby. - Mike KB3EIA - Hello, Mike You've hit the nail on the head. Look at one reply to Dee's comment. I went to a pipe organ concert last evening and ran into a guy who has been in broadcasting. I'm glad I got out of broadcasting. He was glad he was approaching retirement. He told me that he hated news. Oh, if you are an anchor or weatherman, you can make $150,000 a year, no sweat. But for the folks that have to take the equipment and run the recorders or gather the news for that personality, wages are terrible. I was in broadcasting at one time. I served as an engineer at a couple of stations and chief engineer of one station. The pay was pretty good. Then the FCC changed things. No more 1st class radiotelephone license required. This allowed anyone to get in with no prior anything. Stations (due to competition from satellite and cable tv) started networking. One local station let go most of the staff and they get their feed from another station in Syracuse (that also feeds other stations owned by the same entity). A skeleton crew for the news, network feeds during the day, and the feed from Syracuse otherwise. One person serves as chief engineer for 5 stations and they run him ragged. And he makes less than those on-air personalities that might work 4 hours per day (plus a few more researching, but certainly less than 8 hours per day). BTW, the interns work for *nothing*. It is part of their college "education". Since they receive college credit for the work, there is no labor law violation. I've heard that the working jobs are paying perhaps 7 to 12 bucks per hour. Why would someone want to get into that? Heck, don't think, cut grass, and you'll make perhaps 8 or 10. I recently posted a link. Most interesting. Direct TV (which I subscribe to) is launching a number of satellites to feed high-definition to the U.S. Guess who launched the satellite for them? Russia! China has most of our manufacturing. I refuse to work as a toolmaker for $10.00 per hour. I'd take a job as a janitor before virtually giving away labor that should be around $30.00 per hour. Many folks that got hit with the latest cuts where I put in most of my career are back working as temps - at about 60% wages and no benefits. Fortunately, they didn't pull the plug fast enough on me. Although my pension is small, I do get health coverage (at least most of it) from my former employer. I am not considering just not working. I won't have the income that I'd like, but enough to manage on. Social Insecurity is only 4 1/2 years away. I had enough technical knowledge stolen from me over the years at that company. The last time, I was speaking with a supervisor about how terrible the code was in their programmable ladder controllers. I told him that scan rates could be cut by a factor of 7 and cycle times improved. I also mentioned that I had automated ladder generation with optimization back around 1982. He stated that if I could do it, he'd take me in to see the manager. I told him that I had the code already but was not going to give it to the department because we were going to loose our jobs anyway. So, China does the work manually. They didn't want the machines. Fasten your seatbelts. We're going down fast and it is going to be a bumpy ride. 73 from Rochester, NY Jim AA2QA |
Mike Coslo wrote:
.. . . . So what makes a youngster decide to become a Ham? We can try using the input of those who became Hams at a young age. Most of what I have heard is that the person was very interested in the technical aspects involved with getting on the air. Making antennas, building rigs, and getting them on the air was a big part of the attraction. I was one of those back in the "Golden Era" of ham radio. There were two basic types of kids who got into ham radio. Those who had a strong interest in electronics and enjoyed building their rigs and such many of whom went on to become EEs and EE techs. The other category consisted of kids whose interests were in using ham radio to *communicate*. I was one of those. I was a certified geek from a tender age but I didn't have much interest in electronics as such because I was far more interested in things mechanical which eventually led me into a career in mechanical enginering with DXing and contesting strictly on a hobby basis. Others in this group had no particular interests in technical matters at all. When I look back at all the kid hams I knew and what they've done since then on the job and in the hobby it's about a 30/70 split. 30% are into electronics, 70% are not and never were. One of my young ham acquaintances from back then became a priest for instance. As often as not having to study electronics and do soldering iron pushups were friggin' obstacles to getting on the air. In the end, I believe that it is young people that have a technical interest that will likely become Hams. And that, I believe, is the crux of the issue. Sort of. Bottom line here though is that ham radio has historically attracted a much broader group of kids than just those with an interest in electronics. America is not a place that encourages those who might be thinking of a technical career. We have a tendency to encourage a more "pop culture" outlook, which as often as not discounts actual learning for "street cred", There's another factor here. I raised three kids and they're raising a total of five kids under Pop-pop's "close supervision". The problem I'm seeing at least within today's version of the Yuppy class is overprogrammed kids and sports. Their lives are consumed by carefully planned "events" mom & dad have arranged for them. Football practice here then more football practice, soccer practice, two swim meets this week and oops let's not forget Corryne's dance class and there goes mom "Crap, I gotta be in three places at the same time again!" There aren't any open slots in the kids' schedules for some quiet soldering iron time on their own. It's obsessive, massive and insane. and actually turns the smart person into an object of ridicule. I'm not laying any claims to being particulary smart and I took a lot of cheap shots about being a geek up thru my junior high school years. I wasn't alone with this problem either, all us young hams had to deal with it to one extent or another. I was lucky because I've never been bothered by "peer pressure", fuggem, "meet me out by the swings after school . . ". The wilting lilly type geeks had it much tougher but I don't remember any who pulled out of ham radio because of the crap they took from other kids. The big drivers kids have is their parents, if the parents support their interests the geeks will be OK. If the parents don't support or think much of their interests the geek kids have a real problem. My parents were very supportive of my interest in ham radio (except when I blotted out the TV while Dad while watching the Friday nite Gillete fights. "Radios off NOW". Click). I don't see where life has changed very much in this respect. There are levels, and there are levels. If a person is intelligent, and wants a good livelihood, you will find careers that are acceptable. You can be a movie star, or perhaps a lawyer. A whole spectrum follows, but engineering and the technical fields are not very high on that list. How often is the Techie portrayed as a sort of Bill Nye, the science guy type (at best). How about the smart woman who takes off her glasses and suddenly becomes the hot babe? Professor Frink on "The Simpsons"? Pop culture is not kind to the technical types. My experiences with programs like "bring your sons and daughters to work day" shows that almost none of the kids is even thinking of a technical field. A lot want to be lawyers. Kids ain't stupid, they follow the money. Problem there is that one of these days the lawyer biz is gonna tank because of overpopulation. Once in the past, we were scared into thinking that maybe science and technology was maybe not such a bad thing. That happened when the commies launched Sputnik. Suddenly it seemed important that at least some of our kids decided to work in the sciences. Hopefully we will decide that again without having to be shocked into it. Don't even get me started on that debacle. I was one of the first to find Sputnik 1 on 15M which I did with the ham club's old Hammarlund rcvr. Long story but I'll spare ya that one. Kids flocked to engineering schools in battalions then they dumped into the Apollo program. When that bubble broke months after the Apollo program ended several years later something like 200,000 graduate engineers found themselves out on the bricks looking for jobs. I met a guy in that timeframe who was one of those. You won't believe this one but it's true: This guy had spent his entire professional career "engineering" NASA control and annunciator panel PILOT LAMPS for God's sake! He finally found a job as a real estate agent and barely beat the sheriff to the title for his abode. Thousands of others weren't so lucky. These guys (and a few gals, very few) have raised their kids and are becoming grandparents today. They have clout, they been there in volume. I wouldn't expect them to encourage acquiring technical educations, at least not in engineering, I would expect a lot of lingering bitterness about engineering careers on their parts. As much as I've enjoyed my 40+ year engineering career even I'd hesitate about encouraging a kid to get into the biz. Like everything else the engineering of the products we use is being shipped offshore. I dunno, don't look good to me . . I am pretty firmly convinced that until we stop catering to the least common denominator, until we stop marginalizing the technically and scientifically inclined, we will not find many youngsters who want to come into our hobby. I agree with that 100% but it would take years to have any noticeable effect. Taking the topic out a bit further so what if ham radio shrinks, even if it shrinks a bunch? What would be the real-world implications? A bit less clout at the FCC? The League might have to lay off a few bodies? After that what?? We have a helluva lot more hams today per capita today than we had back in the "Golden Era". If we lost half of us we'd still be ahead. We've been sitting ducks for years with respect to losing some of our spectrum space above 30Mhz. and it has nothing do with the number of valid ham tickets. The huge change from the "Golden Era" involves the HF spectrum. HF radio has become almost passe as far as it's commercial value is concerned. Hell, the FCC is dumping BPL all over it, sez it all. So I don't see where even a precipitous drop the number of ham tickets will have any effect on our HF privs. So what's left to get excited about?? With or without kids citizens of all ages will continue to come into the hobby which will continue to evolve just like it has for the past century. I dunno what ham radio will be like 25-50 out but my hunch is that it'll be smaller, maybe much smaller but still very much alive and well. The future is much bigger than any of us or the even the ARRL (gasp!), there's absolutely nothing we can do about any of it. Rants and hand-wringing in this NG notwithstanding. Let it roll and enjoy the trip people. - Mike KB3EIA - w3rv |
Oh yeah -- take a look at San Diego youth training -- URL: http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/n...-1mi7hams.html Only one of several schools here that are training school kids So what are you doing to get more "young'uns" into the Amateur Radio Service ? -- CL -- I doubt, therefore I might be ! "Jim Hampton" wrote in message ... "Mike Coslo" wrote in message ... Many people lament that there is not enough interest in Ham radio by young people. |
garigue wrote:
Used to be that the hams came mostly from the SWL fraternity ...... we have had CB converts test and upgrade with no difficulty .... problems on the repeaters .....any were solved by a phone call to that person not by an on air "dressing down" You can hear them every day on the local repeaters. They use CB slang such as "hate and discontent", "make my phone go ringy-dingy", "I heard that, I did", and the all-time favorite? "Ten four, good buddy." Did you give the guys a call on the phone and explain procedure or write them a note ??? We all were young once either in age or experience .....at 57 I still routinely put my foot in my mouth ... Every once in a blue moon I regress back into my mischevious mode and at the tail end of a qso on one of the heavily-used 2M machines I'll drop in the "Ten 'Fo Good Buddy" routine just see what happens. On a couple of these occasions yup, sure enough here cometh one of the self-appointed repeater cops with a stern lecture about "proper operating practices". I just leave well enough alone and listen to all the squelch tails which pop up. A buddy told me that one of these goofballs got up at a meeting and asked "what can we do about w3rv?" You need to gain another 7 years in the saddle before you'll be 65 which is THE major milestone. After you hit that one you have not only a free pass to having both feet in your mouth but it's also *expected*. Geezerhood is a great, you'll enjoy it no end. Takle care all 73 Tom KI3R Belle Vernon Pa. w3rv |
Mike Coslo wrote:
Many people lament that there is not enough interest in Ham radio by young people. Agreed - but how much would be enough? There are often many reasons given for this deficiency, and somewhat less "fixes". One of the reasons that is given very often is that Amateur radio is in some sort of competition with the Internet. Every activity is in competition with every other. What is the competition between the two? In order to use the internet, one must of course have a computer. It must be connected to the internet, through one of several methods. Once the person has learned to turn on the computer, open a few programs or so, they have the necessary skills to work the internet. Yup. But there's mo A computer has many uses, from being a glorified typewriter to a serious research/calculation device to gaming to producing all sorts of multimedia stuff. Most decent white-collar jobs today require computer skills. Many blue-collar jobs also require them. Amateur radio on the other hand, requires that a radio be used, which requires some skill in operating. An antenna system needs to be connected to this radio. Whereas it is possible to have everything set up for the Ham, most young people do not have the resources to have someone set up their system. Coupled with the possibility of putting an antenna in operation that only costs a few dollars, or even less if the youngster has good scrounging skills, the likelihood is that they would design and put up their own antenna, another skill needed. So there is a large difference in the skills needed for the two hobbies. You're missing a couple of other points, Mike. Computers are all over the place, inexpensive, and often available as hand-me-downs. PCs only a few years old can be had for next-to-nothing. Some people live in places where putting up an antenna - *any* antenna - is banned by CC&Rs. A family isn't likely to move so that Junior can put up a G5RV. Cell phones as competition? While there is a temptation to snipe "Get Real!", I'll address those too. What would make a person decide to take up Cell phone use as a hobby? Cell phones allow you to talk to people that you know (for the most part) and operate in the same manner as a regular telephone, save that you take the cell with you, and you are generally tied in the same building with a standard telephone. It's hard to imagine someone doing that as a hobby, although there are a lot of people who spend a lot of time using them. You missed the point, Mike. Before cell phones became inexpensive and ubiquitous, the average person didn't have many options for personal mobile/portable communications. There was ham radio and cb and not much else. Cell phones changed all that. So what makes a youngster decide to become a Ham? Same things that make anyone else. We can try using the input of those who became Hams at a young age. Most of what I have heard is that the person was very interested in the technical aspects involved with getting on the air. Making antennas, building rigs, and getting them on the air was a big part of the attraction. I was one of those people - licensed at age 13. With no real help from the parents, btw. In the end, I believe that it is young people that have a technical interest that will likely become Hams. More complex than that. There are three basic areas of interest involved: 1) Technical (likes to fool around with radio stuff) 2) Operating (likes the actual operating experience) 3) Communicating (likes the message content more than the medium) Most hams' reasons for getting into the ARS are a mixture of the three. For example, I know some DXers whose main focus is #2. They love the thrill of the chase, hunting down the new ones, etc. Their stations are technical wonders - but the technical stuff is simply a means to an end, not the end in itself. Then there are the ragchew types who have real long-term friendships on-air. Their focus is mainly #3. Or the techno types who are always working on a project but rarely on the air. Once they get something working really well, the excitement is gone and they're off to something else. And that, I believe, is the crux of the issue. I think it's more complex. America is not a place that encourages those who might be thinking of a technical career. We have a tendency to encourage a more "pop culture" outlook, which as often as not discounts actual learning for "street cred", and actually turns the smart person into an object of ridicule. There are levels, and there are levels. If a person is intelligent, and wants a good livelihood, you will find careers that are acceptable. You can be a movie star, or perhaps a lawyer. A whole spectrum follows, but engineering and the technical fields are not very high on that list. Agreed. How often is the Techie portrayed as a sort of Bill Nye, the science guy type (at best). How many TV shows and movies ever depict engineering or technical folks at all, compared to other fields like health care or law enforcement? How about the smart woman who takes off her glasses and suddenly becomes the hot babe? Bailey Quarters. Although she's hot with the glasses *on*, as well.. Professor Frink on "The Simpsons"? Pop culture is not kind to the technical types. Been that way for a long time, Mike. My experiences with programs like "bring your sons and daughters to work day" shows that almost none of the kids is even thinking of a technical field. A lot want to be lawyers. Or business types, or a lot of other things. Once in the past, we were scared into thinking that maybe science and technology was maybe not such a bad thing. That happened when the commies launched Sputnik. Yeah - who'd a thunk they could do something like that? Suddenly it seemed important that at least some of our kids decided to work in the sciences. Hopefully we will decide that again without having to be shocked into it. No, today is worse. The society seems unshockable. Look at where so much stuff today is made... I am pretty firmly convinced that until we stop catering to the least common denominator, until we stop marginalizing the technically and scientifically inclined, we will not find many youngsters who want to come into our hobby. The fact of the matter is that amateur radio has always been a rather specialized activity anyway. I graduated high school in 1972 - the golden age of space and technology, right? In my high school of 2500 boys there were at most six licensed hams. In the girls' school next door there were *none*. 5000 middle class kids in suburban Philly, going to schools where the emphasis was on math and science, and there were but a handful of hams. And this was in an era before CC&Rs, cable TV, VCRs, cell phones, PCs, etc. 73 de Jim, N2EY The most popular highschool technical activity back then was working on cars. A kid with a few tools and skills could get a few dollars together, buy an old heap and get on the road. |
"Caveat Lector" wrote in message news:MWome.7049$vp.262@fed1read07... Oh yeah -- take a look at San Diego youth training -- URL: http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/n...-1mi7hams.html Only one of several schools here that are training school kids So what are you doing to get more "young'uns" into the Amateur Radio Service ? -- CL -- I doubt, therefore I might be ! So what am I doing trying to get young folks into amateur radio? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HamRadioHelpGroup With all due regards to UALLbeware ... Jim AA2QA |
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From: Mike Coslo on May 29, 9:57 pm
wrote: Mike Coslo wrote: Many people lament that there is not enough interest in Ham radio by young people. Agreed - but how much would be enough? Dunno. I personally agree somewhat with Brian K's assertion that the absolute number of Hams could indeed drop without serious problems. On the other hand, I believe that we should have a good mix of ages. Younger hobbyists have to be there to "take orders" from the older ones? :-) There are often many reasons given for this deficiency, and somewhat less "fixes". One of the reasons that is given very often is that Amateur radio is in some sort of competition with the Internet. Every activity is in competition with every other. Among teen-agers? How can you possibly say that? :-) Surely. Comparisons between the two show that Amateur radio is a tad bit more involved than buying a computer, doing a dialup and surfing the net. Will a person who's idea of a hobby is clicking a mouse button find Amateur radio a tad intimidating? Tsk, tsk. Ham speak with forked tongue on inpugning "no intellect required." A sort of Deus Ex Mousina attitude. Mike, you were never into computers and BBSs before the Macintosh mouse debuted, were you? Lots and lots of ALL ages were BBSing, having a great time without the GUI, well before Windows, when not on-line they were doing programming, writing games, "unprotecting" protected disks, experimenting with the first modem advancements, etc. Budding authors were practicing writing and established writers were generating manuscripts with relative ease. Accounting people had discovered the first spreadsheets and increased the efficiency of their inventory, financial records, establishing both schedules and prices of products they were making. ALL BEFORE the advent of either the computer Mouse or GUI. To get an HF transceiver in their vehicles, both young and old could buy a set of transceiver, antenna, microphone for under $200 from Sears, K-Mart, Wall-Mart, etc. in the morning and have it installed and working in the afternoon. Of course that was "CB" and therefore "lowly" and, to some, "criminal." :-) [all before the GUI and mouse] I have to admit that putting up one's ham station DOES take some smarts. One copies an antenna design out of the ARRL Antenna Handbook, getting somewhat close to the dimensions. One can copy a whole transceiver design out of the ARRL Handbook, then rescue themselves by scrapping the unworking project with a ready-built transceiver bought at HRO (reviews of performance presented by the "ARRL Lab" and published in QST). They can even buy coax cable assemblies when they are unable to put on PL-259s right, even buy whole antenna kits. I'd say that was "plug and play" on the same order as PCs, but before Microsith came out with that marketing/sales phrase. :-) A computer has many uses, from being a glorified typewriter to a serious research/calculation device to gaming to producing all sorts of multimedia stuff. Don't forget surfing porn. A great way to build character! 8^) Tsk, Mike. You never saw "dirty pictures" elsewhere (not over a computer) when you were "building (your own) character?" :-) Most decent white-collar jobs today require computer skills. Many blue-collar jobs also require them. True enough. There aren't a lot of businesses or corporations that need "ham radio skills" (even discounting morse code). Back before the GUI and computer mousies, push-to-talk two-way radios were common in business large and small, with public safety organizations, in the military, and in government. All easy to use...and NOT on amateur bands nor needing morse code skills. Not missing a point. To me, computers are like underwear - pretty much gotta have it. I've not seen any "HANES" computer bramds in stores... Some people live in places where putting up an antenna - *any* antenna - is banned by CC&Rs. A family isn't likely to move so that Junior can put up a G5RV. Unless either of you have some NEW info courtesy of the U.S. Census Bureau, you will find the MOST residences in the USA do NOT have such restrictions. Heh! i had a thought -maybe we could get some of the rebellious types to go stealth! 8^) You haven't heard of MOBILE or even HAND-HELD transceivers?!? Actually, I think you missed my point! My point is that if a person is making a choice of hobbies to get into, the concept of choosing between Amateur radio and using a cell phone just isn't in the mix. I see trendy teens with cell phones glued to their heads every day. I can only assume that they spend hours each day on them. I can guarantee that that kid has never considered amateur radio as a hobby. How do you present this "guarantee?" In writing? From "long experience" in observation? [remember there are a few of us who've been around longer and seen MORE teeners - even been one once - have MANY DIFFERENT observations of others over the past half century] I doubt they consider their cells as a hobby either. So it is pretty hard to think of that as competition. Competition for teeners' TIME. They have the same 24 hours a day as adults and infants, the same need to sleep, eat, and do other things (such as attend school). How many TV shows and movies ever depict engineering or technical folks at all, compared to other fields like health care or law enforcement? TV shows and Movies are for ENTERTAINMENT of enough customers that will pay the Producers of same...and artists. Entertainment shows go for the Emotions of the audience. One show made a start toward a good positive presentation of engineers and techies. It was Star Trek. The original series had a very kind treatment of Scottie, the engineer. ...who ran the works of a SPACESHIP (circa 1967) as thunk up by MOVIE people, the Producers, the Writers, the scenery and prop designers. NOT "techie" insofar as our then-present society was. EMOTION stuff, NOT education. I graduated high school in 1972 - the golden age of space and technology, right? Well, pretty close to the end of it.... NOT EVEN CLOSE. Having been IN the "space business" since 1964 and working for the manufacturer of the Space Shuttle Main Engine (as well as the Apollo first-stage engine), you both missed the Space Shuttle program and well over a hundred STS missions. You've MISSED the unmanned vehicle missions and negated the tremendous data gathered by the Mars rovers and the trips to the outer edges of our solar system. You two have completely ignored when the "personal computer" made its debuts beginning in the mid-1970s, and suddenly skyrocketing after 1980. You've missed the first computer networking of BBSs that began in the late 1970s or have recognized the Internet phenomenon happening after it went public in 1991. Perhaps you've both become too blase' about computers and the Internet? My basic thesis is that we as a society are moving toward the celebration of the ordinary, the mundane. We have lost our edge. And that can only last for so long. Tsk, your own middle-age angst is mumbling. :-) I've heard the SAME sort of complaint by others about their generations' folly for about six decades. :-) If we can celebrate those who *DO* things instead of simply consume things, we might reverse that trend. That has been going on in nearly all technological endeavors for as long as I can remember. The DO-ers are celebrated. A survey of the IEEE Milestone history program in electronics demonstrates that, a program that is shared with other technological associations. The birth of the first "hard drive" has been Milestoned recently...IBM's RAMAC and the Model 350 disk storage system (1956) out of a small IBM lab in Silicon Valley. But, to be celebrated, you MUST do something that others consider more remarkable than average. Your own personal accomplishment is NOT enough. One isn't a DO-er just by making something and showing it on the Internet to a wide ranging viewing audience, then proclaiming its "greatness." Neither is one a DO-er by explaining what they "will" do and expecting plaudits BEFORE they've ever done anything. |
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Mike Coslo wrote:
wrote: Mike Coslo wrote: Many people lament that there is not enough interest in Ham radio by young people. Agreed - but how much would be enough? Dunno. I personally agree somewhat with Brian K's assertion that the absolute number of Hams could indeed drop without serious problems. It's happening already. The important number is how many *active* hams there are. On the other hand, I believe that we should have a good mix of ages. Sure - but how much is enough? If, say, 10% of the US amateur population were under the age of 21, would that be enough? How would it compare to the way things were 10, 20, 30 years ago? Looking around at hamfests and club meetings isn't necessarily a representative sample of the ham population. There are often many reasons given for this deficiency, and somewhat less "fixes". One thing is for su Adding an age requirement, as proposed to FCC by one frequent poster here, isn't a fix nor a good idea. One of the reasons that is given very often is that Amateur radio is in some sort of competition with the Internet. Every activity is in competition with every other. Surely. Comparisons between the two show that Amateur radio is a tad bit more involved than buying a computer, doing a dialup and surfing the net. Will a person who's idea of a hobby is clicking a mouse button find Amateur radio a tad intimidating? More than a tad! What is the competition between the two? In order to use the internet, one must of course have a computer. It must be connected to the internet, through one of several methods. Once the person has learned to turn on the computer, open a few programs or so, they have the necessary skills to work the internet. Yup. But there's mo A computer has many uses, from being a glorified typewriter to a serious research/calculation device to gaming to producing all sorts of multimedia stuff. Don't forget surfing porn. A great way to build character! 8^) See "all sorts of multimedia stuff". Most decent white-collar jobs today require computer skills. Many blue-collar jobs also require them. Amateur radio on the other hand, requires that a radio be used, which requires some skill in operating. An antenna system needs to be connected to this radio. Whereas it is possible to have everything set up for the Ham, most young people do not have the resources to have someone set up their system. Coupled with the possibility of putting an antenna in operation that only costs a few dollars, or even less if the youngster has good scrounging skills, the likelihood is that they would design and put up their own antenna, another skill needed. So there is a large difference in the skills needed for the two hobbies. You're missing a couple of other points, Mike. Computers are all over the place, inexpensive, and often available as hand-me-downs. PCs only a few years old can be had for next-to-nothing. Not missing a point. To me, computers are like underwear - pretty much gotta have it. And like underwear, there are some things better done without computers... Some people live in places where putting up an antenna - *any* antenna - is banned by CC&Rs. A family isn't likely to move so that Junior can put up a G5RV. Heh! i had a thought -maybe we could get some of the rebellious types to go stealth! 8^) A few might. Cell phones as competition? While there is a temptation to snipe "Get Real!", I'll address those too. What would make a person decide to take up Cell phone use as a hobby? Cell phones allow you to talk to people that you know (for the most part) and operate in the same manner as a regular telephone, save that you take the cell with you, and you are generally tied in the same building with a standard telephone. It's hard to imagine someone doing that as a hobby, although there are a lot of people who spend a lot of time using them. You missed the point, Mike. Before cell phones became inexpensive and ubiquitous, the average person didn't have many options for personal mobile/portable communications. There was ham radio and cb and not much else. Cell phones changed all that. Actually, I think you missed my point! My point is that if a person is making a choice of hobbies to get into, the concept of choosing between Amateur radio and using a cell phone just isn't in the mix. I see trendy teens with cell phones glued to their heads every day. I can only assume that they spend hours each day on them. Maybe - but kids spending lots of time on the 'phone isn't a new thing at all. Goes back to the '50s at least. I can guarantee that that kid has never considered amateur radio as a hobby. I doubt they consider their cells as a hobby either. Means to an end, not an end in itself. So it is pretty hard to think of that as competition. Here's how: Back before cell phones, one "selling point" for ham radio was something like "if you and your friends got ham licenses, you could talk all you want without tying up the 'phone." Another was that repeaters extended the range of an HT, mobile or compromise home station enormously. Of course that's a "means to an end" application - the goal is talking to the friends, the radio part is simply how it's done. 20 years ago such a "sales pitch" made sense. Today, in most places, the response would be to simply get a cell phone. I have two cell phones, a few computers, spend a lot of time on the internet in my job and off work, and I cannot explain the seeming exclusivity ascribed to the them as related to my Ham license. Time spent on them is not time on the air. So what makes a youngster decide to become a Ham? Same things that make anyone else. We can try using the input of those who became Hams at a young age. Most of what I have heard is that the person was very interested in the technical aspects involved with getting on the air. Making antennas, building rigs, and getting them on the air was a big part of the attraction. I was one of those people - licensed at age 13. With no real help from the parents, btw. In the end, I believe that it is young people that have a technical interest that will likely become Hams. More complex than that. There are three basic areas of interest involved: 1) Technical (likes to fool around with radio stuff) 2) Operating (likes the actual operating experience) 3) Communicating (likes the message content more than the medium) Most hams' reasons for getting into the ARS are a mixture of the three. For example, I know some DXers whose main focus is #2. They love the thrill of the chase, hunting down the new ones, etc. Their stations are technical wonders - but the technical stuff is simply a means to an end, not the end in itself. Then there are the ragchew types who have real long-term friendships on-air. Their focus is mainly #3. Or the techno types who are always working on a project but rarely on the air. Once they get something working really well, the excitement is gone and they're off to something else. And that, I believe, is the crux of the issue. I think it's more complex. America is not a place that encourages those who might be thinking of a technical career. We have a tendency to encourage a more "pop culture" outlook, which as often as not discounts actual learning for "street cred", and actually turns the smart person into an object of ridicule. There are levels, and there are levels. If a person is intelligent, and wants a good livelihood, you will find careers that are acceptable. You can be a movie star, or perhaps a lawyer. A whole spectrum follows, but engineering and the technical fields are not very high on that list. Agreed. How often is the Techie portrayed as a sort of Bill Nye, the science guy type (at best). How many TV shows and movies ever depict engineering or technical folks at all, compared to other fields like health care or law enforcement? And we've only had a gazillion shows about that kind of stuff. Bingo. One show made a start toward a good positive presentation of engineers and techies. It was Star Trek. The original series had a very kind treatment of Scottie, the engineer. The portrayal of the engineer as a Scot is a classic stereotype. Goes back to "MacAndrew's Hymn" at least. How about the smart woman who takes off her glasses and suddenly becomes the hot babe? Bailey Quarters. Although she's hot with the glasses *on*, as well.. I'll bet you liked Marcia Strassman too! Of course - Mrs. Kotter... Professor Frink on "The Simpsons"? Pop culture is not kind to the technical types. Been that way for a long time, Mike. My experiences with programs like "bring your sons and daughters to work day" shows that almost none of the kids is even thinking of a technical field. A lot want to be lawyers. Or business types, or a lot of other things. Yup. I don't know if you heard about this, but there are some people who want to bring proposition 19 into the whole of education. I can see it now, young women being forced to become engineers..... There's a big difference between equality of opportunity and equality of result. Look what happened to the guy at Harvard... Once in the past, we were scared into thinking that maybe science and technology was maybe not such a bad thing. That happened when the commies launched Sputnik. Yeah - who'd a thunk they could do something like that? Suddenly it seemed important that at least some of our kids decided to work in the sciences. Hopefully we will decide that again without having to be shocked into it. No, today is worse. The society seems unshockable. Look at where so much stuff today is made... I share your concern. BTW, the place where so much of our "stuff" is made is not our friend. Sure they are - as long as we play by *their* rules. Part of the problem goes back decades, to when the USA decided that certain sectors of manufacturing could be dominated by imports. I am pretty firmly convinced that until we stop catering to the least common denominator, until we stop marginalizing the technically and scientifically inclined, we will not find many youngsters who want to come into our hobby. The fact of the matter is that amateur radio has always been a rather specialized activity anyway. No argument there. I graduated high school in 1972 - the golden age of space and technology, right? Well, pretty close to the end of it.... In my high school of 2500 boys there were at most six licensed hams. In the girls' school next door there were *none*. 5000 middle class kids in suburban Philly, going to schools where the emphasis was on math and science, and there were but a handful of hams. And this was in an era before CC&Rs, cable TV, VCRs, cell phones, PCs, etc. My basic thesis is that we as a society are moving toward the celebration of the ordinary, the mundane. We have lost our edge. And that can only last for so long. I think it's the opposite - we don't celebrate the "ordinary" enough! Suppose - just suppose - that instead of going to the moon on a "before this decade is out" timeline, the USA had devoted some of those resources to developing energy independence. Energy crisis? what energy crisis? If we can celebrate those who *DO* things instead of simply consume things, we might reverse that trend. You mean "produce things". The people who are celebrities today are all doers - movie stars, sports figures, etc. The most popular highschool technical activity back then was working on cars. A kid with a few tools and skills could get a few dollars together, buy an old heap and get on the road. Been there, done that. 8^) How many highschoolers do that today? 73 de Jim, N2EY |
You need to gain another 7 years in the saddle before you'll be 65 which is THE major milestone. After you hit that one you have not only a free pass to having both feet in your mouth but it's also *expected*. Geezerhood is a great, you'll enjoy it no end. Takle care all 73 Tom KI3R Belle Vernon Pa. w3rv God willing Kelly ..God willing .... 73 Tom KI3R |
wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote: wrote: .. . . On the other hand, I believe that we should have a good mix of ages. Sure - but how much is enough? If, say, 10% of the US amateur population were under the age of 21, would that be enough? What "dire fate" would befall ham radio if there wasn't a single licensee under 21? What do they actaully bring to hobby which is so important?? Sorry, makes no sense, I just don't get it. If it's a numbers game why not shift gears and recruit retirees instead of chasing kids? The retirees are far more independent than kids, they're more mature, on average they don't care about nonsense like instant gratification and peer pressure and they have the time the kids don't have. And in most cases they also have the money the kids don't have. w3rv |
wrote in message oups.com... wrote: Mike Coslo wrote: wrote: . . . On the other hand, I believe that we should have a good mix of ages. Sure - but how much is enough? If, say, 10% of the US amateur population were under the age of 21, would that be enough? What "dire fate" would befall ham radio if there wasn't a single licensee under 21? What do they actaully bring to hobby which is so important?? Sorry, makes no sense, I just don't get it. If it's a numbers game why not shift gears and recruit retirees instead of chasing kids? The retirees are far more independent than kids, they're more mature, on average they don't care about nonsense like instant gratification and peer pressure and they have the time the kids don't have. And in most cases they also have the money the kids don't have. w3rv Kelly, I think we're batting our gums over nothing. The original post, in my mind, hit the nail on the head. Technical folks seem to be almost unwanted in the United States. One reason for amateur radio (at least in the past) was to attract the technically oriented and hopefully some would persue their interest and become engineers. Engineers don't make tons of money these days. Skilled trades folks are almost unwanted. I had to laugh, there were ads for toolmakers (a number of years minimum experience) that ran $10.00 to $12.00 per hour. I just saw an ad for a parking lot attendent at $11.00 per hour. Of course, the requirements for that job were tough. Almost as tough as amateur radio requirements. Not only did you need a high school diploma (or ged, or equivalent experience), you had to be able to make change without the use of a computer or calculator! Meanwhile, Russia launches Direct TVs latest hi-definition satellite, China does the manufacturing. As to your suggestion about putting a minimum age limit for amateurs, raising it enough (say to 55) would ensure that mostly appliance operators apply. Sorry, I can't agree on an age limit for amateurs (although I understand what you mean about the numbers game - therefor the suggestion). Meanwhile, we have to get rid of manufacturing and perhaps teachers too. We have more important stuff to deal with, such as the weapons of mass destruction. 73 from Rochester, NY Jim AA2QA |
"Jim Hampton" wrote We have more important stuff to deal with, such as the weapons of mass destruction. It's amazing how hard those suckers are to find! So far about 1,600 of our youth have died looking for those pesky things. Just when the military cemeteries were filling mostly with old retired warriors, it looks like Memorial Day is getting a new lease on life. dit dit de Hans, K0HB |
wrote in message oups.com... wrote: Mike Coslo wrote: wrote: . . . On the other hand, I believe that we should have a good mix of ages. Sure - but how much is enough? If, say, 10% of the US amateur population were under the age of 21, would that be enough? What "dire fate" would befall ham radio if there wasn't a single licensee under 21? What do they actaully bring to hobby which is so important?? Sorry, makes no sense, I just don't get it. If it's a numbers game why not shift gears and recruit retirees instead of chasing kids? The retirees are far more independent than kids, they're more mature, on average they don't care about nonsense like instant gratification and peer pressure and they have the time the kids don't have. And in most cases they also have the money the kids don't have. w3rv I've often suggested recruiting people in the 40 to 50 year old range. Their kids are grown or nearly so. They have a better income than when they were younger and a little more free time than when they were younger. And they are still young enough to have energy and enthusiasm for new activities. Personally I try to encourage everyone of all ages who shows even a hint of interest. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE |
"Dee Flint" wrote in message ... wrote in message oups.com... wrote: Mike Coslo wrote: wrote: . . . On the other hand, I believe that we should have a good mix of ages. Sure - but how much is enough? If, say, 10% of the US amateur population were under the age of 21, would that be enough? What "dire fate" would befall ham radio if there wasn't a single licensee under 21? What do they actaully bring to hobby which is so important?? Sorry, makes no sense, I just don't get it. If it's a numbers game why not shift gears and recruit retirees instead of chasing kids? The retirees are far more independent than kids, they're more mature, on average they don't care about nonsense like instant gratification and peer pressure and they have the time the kids don't have. And in most cases they also have the money the kids don't have. w3rv I've often suggested recruiting people in the 40 to 50 year old range. Their kids are grown or nearly so. They have a better income than when they were younger and a little more free time than when they were younger. And they are still young enough to have energy and enthusiasm for new activities. Personally I try to encourage everyone of all ages who shows even a hint of interest. Dee D. Flint, N8UZE Hello, Dee You are one who is an asset to amateur radio. One who doesn't quibble over someone's age, gender, or background (heaven help us if it is a cber wanting to get in LOL). Go tell 'em, gal! The best of 73s from Rochester, NY (someone will gripe about a plural here LOL) Jim ps - I consider the best of 73s to be a singular collective and think Dee deserves a big *thanks* for encouraging anyone and everyone! :) pps - anyone who thinks not, just be my guest and ZBM-2 :)) |
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wrote: Mike Coslo wrote: wrote: . . . On the other hand, I believe that we should have a good mix of ages. Sure - but how much is enough? If, say, 10% of the US amateur population were under the age of 21, would that be enough? What "dire fate" would befall ham radio if there wasn't a single licensee under 21? What do they actaully bring to hobby which is so important?? Sorry, makes no sense, I just don't get it. Whole bunch of things: 1) Youth is the future 2) One of the Basis and Purposes of the ARS is education - which includes things like educating youth. Even if a young ham does not become an engineer or technical type, the technical background of ham radio is a good thing to have. 3) The ARS has the image of an "old white guy's hobby" in some circles. While that's not an accurate picture, losing younger hams isn't going to help things 4) Young folks have a lot to offer the ARS. If it's a numbers game why not shift gears and recruit retirees instead of chasing kids? That's been going on for a couple decades now. Look at the folks we did FD with a few years ago - most of the older folks in that crowd were licensed after age 55. The thing to do is what Dee says - recruit anyone with an interest. The retirees are far more independent than kids, Very true. they're more mature, HAH! Look at the FCC enforcement letters - you don't see many young people being cited for serious operating violations. There was a guy in Florida named Flippo or some such, and now Gerritsen in LA. They have no counterparts in the younger crowd. Or you can look at the behavior of one "retired from regular hours" frequent poster here....Maturity? on average they don't care about nonsense like instant gratification and peer pressure and they have the time the kids don't have. And in most cases they also have the money the kids don't have. Those I'll agree with. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
Jim Hampton wrote:
wrote in message .. . . . . Kelly, I think we're batting our gums over nothing. When you get right down to it you're probably right. Which is typical of just about all threads in this NG. The original post, in my mind, hit the nail on the head. Technical folks seem to be almost unwanted in the United States. One reason for amateur radio (at least in the past) was to attract the technically oriented and hopefully some would persue their interest and become engineers. Nice warm fuzzy theory and it worked in a number of cases. Fact is though that if a ham ticket was some sort of prerequisite for becoming an EE the EE discipline would be basically to invisible in this country. Which it certainly is not. Engineers don't make tons of money these days. Skilled trades folks are almost unwanted. I had to laugh, there were ads for toolmakers (a number of years minimum experience) that ran $10.00 to $12.00 per hour. I was raised in my Dad's 20-man took & die works but I wised up after a couple years on the bench and went to engineering school, I know that biz well. The job shop rate around here is in the $25/hr range. One of my brothers who has his papers is knocking down $30+/hr and has UAW bennies I'd kill for plus he has all the OT he can be bothered with. Must be a *flock* of unemployed toolmakers around Rochester . . I just saw an ad for a parking lot attendent at $11.00 per hour. Of course, the requirements for that job were tough. Almost as tough as amateur radio requirements. Not only did you need a high school diploma (or ged, or equivalent experience), you had to be able to make change without the use of a computer or calculator! Meanwhile, Russia launches Direct TVs latest hi-definition satellite, China does the manufacturing. As to your suggestion about putting a minimum age limit for amateurs, Whoa: Stop Jim. Go back and read my post and point out where I suggested anything about an age limit on anybody or anything. raising it enough (say to 55) would ensure that mostly appliance operators apply. Sorry, I can't agree on an age limit for amateurs (although I understand what you mean about the numbers game - therefor the suggestion). Meanwhile, we have to get rid of manufacturing and perhaps teachers too. We have more important stuff to deal with, such as the weapons of mass destruction. 73 from Rochester, NY Jim AA2QA w3rv |
wrote in message oups.com... Jim Hampton wrote: wrote in message . . . . . Kelly, I think we're batting our gums over nothing. When you get right down to it you're probably right. Which is typical of just about all threads in this NG. The original post, in my mind, hit the nail on the head. Technical folks seem to be almost unwanted in the United States. One reason for amateur radio (at least in the past) was to attract the technically oriented and hopefully some would persue their interest and become engineers. Nice warm fuzzy theory and it worked in a number of cases. Fact is though that if a ham ticket was some sort of prerequisite for becoming an EE the EE discipline would be basically to invisible in this country. Which it certainly is not. Engineers don't make tons of money these days. Skilled trades folks are almost unwanted. I had to laugh, there were ads for toolmakers (a number of years minimum experience) that ran $10.00 to $12.00 per hour. I was raised in my Dad's 20-man took & die works but I wised up after a couple years on the bench and went to engineering school, I know that biz well. The job shop rate around here is in the $25/hr range. One of my brothers who has his papers is knocking down $30+/hr and has UAW bennies I'd kill for plus he has all the OT he can be bothered with. Must be a *flock* of unemployed toolmakers around Rochester . . I just saw an ad for a parking lot attendent at $11.00 per hour. Of course, the requirements for that job were tough. Almost as tough as amateur radio requirements. Not only did you need a high school diploma (or ged, or equivalent experience), you had to be able to make change without the use of a computer or calculator! Meanwhile, Russia launches Direct TVs latest hi-definition satellite, China does the manufacturing. As to your suggestion about putting a minimum age limit for amateurs, Whoa: Stop Jim. Go back and read my post and point out where I suggested anything about an age limit on anybody or anything. raising it enough (say to 55) would ensure that mostly appliance operators apply. Sorry, I can't agree on an age limit for amateurs (although I understand what you mean about the numbers game - therefor the suggestion). Meanwhile, we have to get rid of manufacturing and perhaps teachers too. We have more important stuff to deal with, such as the weapons of mass destruction. 73 from Rochester, NY Jim AA2QA w3rv Hello, Kelly As I re-read the thread, I agree. You were stating "if a numbers game", etc. As to this area, Rochester is about as depressed as it gets right now. We were rated number one or two a couple weeks ago. You are correct in that a good toolmaker should be knocking down $30.00 per hour or so. I made $12.00 plus an hour in 1978! I've heard some toolmakers that were loosing their jobs that they refused to work for $10.00 per hour and I don't blame them. What goes around, comes around. 20 years from now, there won't be the skilled workforce nor the engineers to fill positions. It will be sad, but once we have sunk to equal to the lowest common denominator, there will be no folks to fill the positions. Of course, we can Kaizaan the problem (is the spelling correct?). The managers can have a coffee and doughnut party, but it will be to no avail. 73 from Rochester, NY Jim AA2QA |
wrote in message ups.com... wrote: wrote: Mike Coslo wrote: wrote: . . . On the other hand, I believe that we should have a good mix of ages. Sure - but how much is enough? If, say, 10% of the US amateur population were under the age of 21, would that be enough? What "dire fate" would befall ham radio if there wasn't a single licensee under 21? What do they actaully bring to hobby which is so important?? Sorry, makes no sense, I just don't get it. Whole bunch of things: 1) Youth is the future 2) One of the Basis and Purposes of the ARS is education - which includes things like educating youth. Even if a young ham does not become an engineer or technical type, the technical background of ham radio is a good thing to have. 3) The ARS has the image of an "old white guy's hobby" in some circles. While that's not an accurate picture, losing younger hams isn't going to help things 4) Young folks have a lot to offer the ARS. If it's a numbers game why not shift gears and recruit retirees instead of chasing kids? That's been going on for a couple decades now. Look at the folks we did FD with a few years ago - most of the older folks in that crowd were licensed after age 55. The thing to do is what Dee says - recruit anyone with an interest. The retirees are far more independent than kids, Very true. they're more mature, HAH! Look at the FCC enforcement letters - you don't see many young people being cited for serious operating violations. There was a guy in Florida named Flippo or some such, and now Gerritsen in LA. They have no counterparts in the younger crowd. Or you can look at the behavior of one "retired from regular hours" frequent poster here....Maturity? on average they don't care about nonsense like instant gratification and peer pressure and they have the time the kids don't have. And in most cases they also have the money the kids don't have. Those I'll agree with. 73 de Jim, N2EY Hello, Jim I sent an off-group message to Dee. You are correct in that she is correct. The less arguing and more recruiting we can do, the better. 73 from Rochester, NY Jim AA2QA |
wrote in message ups.com... wrote: wrote: Mike Coslo wrote: wrote: . . . On the other hand, I believe that we should have a good mix of ages. Sure - but how much is enough? If, say, 10% of the US amateur population were under the age of 21, would that be enough? What "dire fate" would befall ham radio if there wasn't a single licensee under 21? What do they actaully bring to hobby which is so important?? Sorry, makes no sense, I just don't get it. Whole bunch of things: 1) Youth is the future Old thought pattern. Amateur Radio has turned into a hobby for the "older crowd". The youth of today are too busy getting daddy and mommy to buy them a new cell phone and/or laptop. 2) One of the Basis and Purposes of the ARS is education - which includes things like educating youth. Even if a young ham does not become an engineer or technical type, the technical background of ham radio is a good thing to have. So who is going to educate them? How many ham stations have you seen at a school lately? For that matter....when is your club going to put on a school demo? 3) The ARS has the image of an "old white guy's hobby" in some circles. While that's not an accurate picture, losing younger hams isn't going to help things 4) Young folks have a lot to offer the ARS. Sure they do.....so go recruit them. Stop jacking your jaws and do something. If it's a numbers game why not shift gears and recruit retirees instead of chasing kids? There you go....were zero beat now. That's been going on for a couple decades now. Look at the folks we did FD with a few years ago - most of the older folks in that crowd were licensed after age 55. The thing to do is what Dee says - recruit anyone with an interest. Correct. The retirees are far more independent than kids, Very true. they're more mature, And they got the money to buy a rig, antenna, house and lot to put it on...etc. HAH! Look at the FCC enforcement letters - you don't see many young people being cited for serious operating violations. Of course not. They have a signal to be heard. FCC can't hear anything below 20/9. There was a guy in Florida named Flippo or some such, and now Gerritsen in LA. They have no counterparts in the younger crowd. Oh really? How about that computer geek in California that hacked all the computer systems????? He was a ham....forgot his call. Or you can look at the behavior of one "retired from regular hours" frequent poster here....Maturity? on average they don't care about nonsense like instant gratification and peer pressure and they have the time the kids don't have. And in most cases they also have the money the kids don't have. Those I'll agree with. 73 de Jim, N2EY There are pro/con on all the above. IMHO the basic thing....recruit all those you can and let the chips fall where they will. You have to love Ham Radio to come and join us. If you don't.......(this will tick em off) WE DON'T NEED YA. Dan/W4NTI |
"Jim Hampton" wrote in message ... wrote in message oups.com... Jim Hampton wrote: wrote in message . . . . . Kelly, I think we're batting our gums over nothing. When you get right down to it you're probably right. Which is typical of just about all threads in this NG. The original post, in my mind, hit the nail on the head. Technical folks seem to be almost unwanted in the United States. One reason for amateur radio (at least in the past) was to attract the technically oriented and hopefully some would persue their interest and become engineers. Nice warm fuzzy theory and it worked in a number of cases. Fact is though that if a ham ticket was some sort of prerequisite for becoming an EE the EE discipline would be basically to invisible in this country. Which it certainly is not. Engineers don't make tons of money these days. Skilled trades folks are almost unwanted. I had to laugh, there were ads for toolmakers (a number of years minimum experience) that ran $10.00 to $12.00 per hour. I was raised in my Dad's 20-man took & die works but I wised up after a couple years on the bench and went to engineering school, I know that biz well. The job shop rate around here is in the $25/hr range. One of my brothers who has his papers is knocking down $30+/hr and has UAW bennies I'd kill for plus he has all the OT he can be bothered with. Must be a *flock* of unemployed toolmakers around Rochester . . I just saw an ad for a parking lot attendent at $11.00 per hour. Of course, the requirements for that job were tough. Almost as tough as amateur radio requirements. Not only did you need a high school diploma (or ged, or equivalent experience), you had to be able to make change without the use of a computer or calculator! Meanwhile, Russia launches Direct TVs latest hi-definition satellite, China does the manufacturing. As to your suggestion about putting a minimum age limit for amateurs, Whoa: Stop Jim. Go back and read my post and point out where I suggested anything about an age limit on anybody or anything. raising it enough (say to 55) would ensure that mostly appliance operators apply. Sorry, I can't agree on an age limit for amateurs (although I understand what you mean about the numbers game - therefor the suggestion). Meanwhile, we have to get rid of manufacturing and perhaps teachers too. We have more important stuff to deal with, such as the weapons of mass destruction. 73 from Rochester, NY Jim AA2QA w3rv Hello, Kelly As I re-read the thread, I agree. You were stating "if a numbers game", etc. As to this area, Rochester is about as depressed as it gets right now. We were rated number one or two a couple weeks ago. You are correct in that a good toolmaker should be knocking down $30.00 per hour or so. I made $12.00 plus an hour in 1978! I've heard some toolmakers that were loosing their jobs that they refused to work for $10.00 per hour and I don't blame them. What goes around, comes around. 20 years from now, there won't be the skilled workforce nor the engineers to fill positions. It will be sad, but once we have sunk to equal to the lowest common denominator, there will be no folks to fill the positions. Of course, we can Kaizaan the problem (is the spelling correct?). The managers can have a coffee and doughnut party, but it will be to no avail. 73 from Rochester, NY Jim AA2QA Your right Jim. I see no chance for the USA to stay on top. IMHO it is due to the liberal mindset that started in the 60s and has taken over our public schools and Universities. And I see no help for it. Dan/W4NTI |
"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message link.net... "Jim Hampton" wrote in message ... wrote in message oups.com... Jim Hampton wrote: wrote in message . . . . . Kelly, I think we're batting our gums over nothing. When you get right down to it you're probably right. Which is typical of just about all threads in this NG. The original post, in my mind, hit the nail on the head. Technical folks seem to be almost unwanted in the United States. One reason for amateur radio (at least in the past) was to attract the technically oriented and hopefully some would persue their interest and become engineers. Nice warm fuzzy theory and it worked in a number of cases. Fact is though that if a ham ticket was some sort of prerequisite for becoming an EE the EE discipline would be basically to invisible in this country. Which it certainly is not. Engineers don't make tons of money these days. Skilled trades folks are almost unwanted. I had to laugh, there were ads for toolmakers (a number of years minimum experience) that ran $10.00 to $12.00 per hour. I was raised in my Dad's 20-man took & die works but I wised up after a couple years on the bench and went to engineering school, I know that biz well. The job shop rate around here is in the $25/hr range. One of my brothers who has his papers is knocking down $30+/hr and has UAW bennies I'd kill for plus he has all the OT he can be bothered with. Must be a *flock* of unemployed toolmakers around Rochester . . I just saw an ad for a parking lot attendent at $11.00 per hour. Of course, the requirements for that job were tough. Almost as tough as amateur radio requirements. Not only did you need a high school diploma (or ged, or equivalent experience), you had to be able to make change without the use of a computer or calculator! Meanwhile, Russia launches Direct TVs latest hi-definition satellite, China does the manufacturing. As to your suggestion about putting a minimum age limit for amateurs, Whoa: Stop Jim. Go back and read my post and point out where I suggested anything about an age limit on anybody or anything. raising it enough (say to 55) would ensure that mostly appliance operators apply. Sorry, I can't agree on an age limit for amateurs (although I understand what you mean about the numbers game - therefor the suggestion). Meanwhile, we have to get rid of manufacturing and perhaps teachers too. We have more important stuff to deal with, such as the weapons of mass destruction. 73 from Rochester, NY Jim AA2QA w3rv Hello, Kelly As I re-read the thread, I agree. You were stating "if a numbers game", etc. As to this area, Rochester is about as depressed as it gets right now. We were rated number one or two a couple weeks ago. You are correct in that a good toolmaker should be knocking down $30.00 per hour or so. I made $12.00 plus an hour in 1978! I've heard some toolmakers that were loosing their jobs that they refused to work for $10.00 per hour and I don't blame them. What goes around, comes around. 20 years from now, there won't be the skilled workforce nor the engineers to fill positions. It will be sad, but once we have sunk to equal to the lowest common denominator, there will be no folks to fill the positions. Of course, we can Kaizaan the problem (is the spelling correct?). The managers can have a coffee and doughnut party, but it will be to no avail. 73 from Rochester, NY Jim AA2QA Your right Jim. I see no chance for the USA to stay on top. IMHO it is due to the liberal mindset that started in the 60s and has taken over our public schools and Universities. And I see no help for it. Dan/W4NTI Hello, Dan Cutting aid to eduation, the V.A., and other programs is a function of the liberal mindset? Meanwhile, a ton of cuts for the rich. BTW, they want to eliminate the deposit (5 cents) per can of soda (and other stuff such as beer) in NYS. They wish to replace it with a similar *tax*! Have you noticed that they wish to eliminate (or have they already) a deduction for energy efficient vehicles - yet retain a deduction for SUVs weighing over .... what is it, 3 tons? The so-called liberals wanted the deposit to encourage folks to return the cans and not leave them all over the place. Pataki (our governor) and his gang (republicans) want to replace the deposit with a *tax*! They can't stand to see the money returned to the people. The reality is that the Republicans want to kill the poor to save the rich. Nice try. Given a few years of our troups being killed in Iraq, I'll be interested in seeing how they will replace them. Duty *forever* in Iraq is not likely to work. I had no problems with attacking Afganistan. Iraq, however, with its' weapons of mass destruction .... well, sooner or later the folks with the modest double-digit I.Q.s will wake up. How many weapons of mass destruction have they found? England is really upset with Tony Blair. They want him out. I offered to trade Bush for him, but, unfortunately, no one wants Bush. Of course, the Democrats that get elected because of this will be blamed when they have to make changes. Changes will have to be made, whether we like it or not. BTW, I didn't inhale :)) Best regards from Rochester, NY Jim AA2QA |
"Dan/W4NTI" wrote in message link.net... wrote in message ups.com... wrote: wrote: Mike Coslo wrote: wrote: . . . On the other hand, I believe that we should have a good mix of ages. Sure - but how much is enough? If, say, 10% of the US amateur population were under the age of 21, would that be enough? What "dire fate" would befall ham radio if there wasn't a single licensee under 21? What do they actaully bring to hobby which is so important?? Sorry, makes no sense, I just don't get it. Whole bunch of things: 1) Youth is the future Old thought pattern. Amateur Radio has turned into a hobby for the "older crowd". The youth of today are too busy getting daddy and mommy to buy them a new cell phone and/or laptop. 2) One of the Basis and Purposes of the ARS is education - which includes things like educating youth. Even if a young ham does not become an engineer or technical type, the technical background of ham radio is a good thing to have. So who is going to educate them? How many ham stations have you seen at a school lately? For that matter....when is your club going to put on a school demo? 3) The ARS has the image of an "old white guy's hobby" in some circles. While that's not an accurate picture, losing younger hams isn't going to help things 4) Young folks have a lot to offer the ARS. Sure they do.....so go recruit them. Stop jacking your jaws and do something. If it's a numbers game why not shift gears and recruit retirees instead of chasing kids? There you go....were zero beat now. That's been going on for a couple decades now. Look at the folks we did FD with a few years ago - most of the older folks in that crowd were licensed after age 55. The thing to do is what Dee says - recruit anyone with an interest. Correct. The retirees are far more independent than kids, Very true. they're more mature, And they got the money to buy a rig, antenna, house and lot to put it on...etc. HAH! Look at the FCC enforcement letters - you don't see many young people being cited for serious operating violations. Of course not. They have a signal to be heard. FCC can't hear anything below 20/9. There was a guy in Florida named Flippo or some such, and now Gerritsen in LA. They have no counterparts in the younger crowd. Oh really? How about that computer geek in California that hacked all the computer systems????? He was a ham....forgot his call. Or you can look at the behavior of one "retired from regular hours" frequent poster here....Maturity? on average they don't care about nonsense like instant gratification and peer pressure and they have the time the kids don't have. And in most cases they also have the money the kids don't have. Those I'll agree with. 73 de Jim, N2EY There are pro/con on all the above. IMHO the basic thing....recruit all those you can and let the chips fall where they will. You have to love Ham Radio to come and join us. If you don't.......(this will tick em off) WE DON'T NEED YA. Dan/W4NTI Point well made, Dan 73 from Rochester, NY Jim AA2QA |
Your right Jim. I see no chance for the USA to stay on top. IMHO it is due to the liberal mindset that started in the 60s and has taken over our public schools and Universities. And I see no help for it. Dan/W4NTI Hello, Dan Cutting aid to eduation, the V.A., and other programs is a function of the liberal mindset? No. The liberals want to increase taxes to pay for these entitlements. Trouble is the Liberal mindset is that there is never enough taxation. Who pays these taxes? Liberals brought us Medicare, a system fraught with fraud and theft. Dittos for Food Stamps. Likewise for Govt. subsidized housing, now in the third and fourth generations. Meanwhile, a ton of cuts for the rich. BTW, they want to eliminate the deposit (5 cents) per can of soda (and other stuff such as beer) in NYS. They wish to replace it with a similar *tax*! Have you noticed that they wish to eliminate (or have they already) a deduction for energy efficient vehicles - yet retain a deduction for SUVs weighing over .... what is it, 3 tons? Look at the facts. The "rich" pay far more than the every day Joe Sixpack worker. http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/men...s .guest.html The so-called liberals wanted the deposit to encourage folks to return the cans and not leave them all over the place. Pataki (our governor) and his gang (republicans) want to replace the deposit with a *tax*! They can't stand to see the money returned to the people. The reality is that the Republicans want to kill the poor to save the rich. Yet more Liberal invective based on emotion rather than facts. Why not do what other states are doing. Eliminate the silly deposit requirement? Typical Liberal mindset. More Goverment intervention into personal lives... Nice try. Poor try. Given a few years of our troups being killed in Iraq, I'll be interested in seeing how they will replace them. Duty *forever* in Iraq is not likely to work. Yet the morale of our troops is extremely high and despite the liberal press, they come home feeling as though they are doing a good thing. Dan Rather and you excluded. I had no problems with attacking Afganistan. Iraq, however, with its' weapons of mass destruction .... well, sooner or later the folks with the modest double-digit I.Q.s will wake up. How many weapons of mass destruction have they found? England is really upset with Tony Blair. They want him out. I offered to trade Bush for him, but, unfortunately, no one wants Bush. That explains why he won a second term, hands down, despite rampant voter fraud in the blue states. Of course, the Democrats that get elected because of this will be blamed when they have to make changes. Changes will have to be made, whether we like it or not. After 8 years of our troops, ships, and yes, the First Ever World Trade Center Bombing under Clinton's rule...changes indeed must be made. Terrorists were emboldened by Clinton's inaction and yes, cowardice. BTW, I didn't inhale :)) Not necessary. Your thought processes are already befuddled enough. Best regards from Rochester, NY Jim AA2QA Dittos. And while I have the podium, Jim, I agree with Dan on this one. The Liberal mindset has turned our schools inside out. Our kids cannot recite the Pledge of Allegiance because it has, GASP!, the God word in it. Yet the Muslim kids in New York are allowed to kneel toward Mecca several times a day and the Liberals say not one word about that. That is called "tolerance", while any mention of God has to be dealt with and eliminated quickly lest the Christians "indoctrinate" our kids. Graduating eighth-graders have never heard of the Getteysburg Address, Antietam or Atlanta. I guess their liberal teachers were too busy teaching them to be "tolerant" of alternate lifestyles. Our sixth graders have no idea who Abe Lincoln was, that he enacted the Emancipatiion Proclamation, but they know all about Martin Luther King and Muhammed. Our fifth graders know nothing of our Constitution, but they know that guns are bad and Rap Music is good. Our fourth graders don't understand why their mommy and daddy got a divorce, but they know that it is OK for Little Johnny to have two Dads or two Mommies. Our third graders are fast learning that they cannot bring to school photos of their dads or moms who are serving in the military for Show and Tell. Allah forbid that the kids should be subjected to a photo of a proud Marine doing his or her duty for our country. The liberal teachers call that "zero tolerance". Oh, the latest Liberal hoot? A couple of school systems are now being ever so gracious in allowing the kids to recite The Pledge, but they must now omit the Gasp!, God word and replace it with "your belief". How sickeningly politically correct. The Liberals, accompanied by the likes of Chappaquiddic Ted are doing our country great harm. You could't pay me to be a Democrat, but obviously there are those who can be. Dan is correct on this one. You lose. |
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