wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
From: on Wed 16 Nov 2005 19:09
wrote:
From: "Bill Sohl" on Wed 16 Nov 2005 08:35
wrote in message
an old friend wrote:
wrote:
Bill Sohl wrote:

Way back in time the pro-coders managed to set themselves up as
"extra" amateurs BECAUSE of their telegraphy skill, all through
lobbying to keep morse code as the "hot ticket."

Not true, Len.

ABSOLUTELY TRUE, Miccolis. Everyone realizes it. Why not
admit that it is so?

Let's go through it, shall we? Pro-coders (one can only wonder if Len
means those who favored morse testing, those who favored morse use or
those who were simply proficient at morse code) made up their own
regulations. It isn't explained how or if these "pro-coders" all became
Extra Class ticket holders. Extra Class license holders can't obtain
that license without passing the most difficult theory and regulatory
written exam offered in U.S. amateur radio and not all of those with
morse code skills became Extra Class licensees. Len's statement appears
to have some gaping holes.

Tsk, tsk, tsk. NO "holes," Heil. An abbreviated synopsis
is all.

Big holes, Len.

Before Restructuring took effect in 2000, the Extra code test
rate was 20 WPM.

Unless a medical waiver was obtained, in which case the Extra
could be had for a code test of as little as 5 wpm.

The "modern" Extra class license was added in the 1951 restructuring
that
also added the Novice and Technician class licenses. The code test
speed
for the Extra was set at 20 wpm at that time.

That's what Len said. But when you say it, it just takes longer.
Congratulations.

Why? Because the older-timers influencing
the NAAR lobbyists thought they were hot snit for amateur
radio because so many had been professional telegraphers.

No, that's not true at all.

It does have that appearance. Why don't hams working for the FCC have
to put away their licenses as to not incur a conflict of interest?
That would like having a big oil president and vice president holding
oil stocks.

It was a way of keeping the old pro status past retirement.
Since they were already skilled in telegraphy, they got a free
set of perquisites in a HOBBY activity.

What about the thousands of others - like myself - who earned the
license because we wanted the privileges? In my case, that was
in 1970, at the age of 16.

You mom and dad provided you with three hots and a cot. Unless you
were raised in an orphanage where the Christians or the County provided
the three hots and a cot.

Prove that the "old First Phone" examination was "less hard"
than the Amateur Extra exam. You never completed that last
test element on your alleged Commercial radio operator license
and could only get a SECOND class.

Kindly prove that the old Amateur Extra was less difficult than the old
First Phone.

Heil, quit being the snotty lil kid trying to turn tables. That
makes YOU look dumb. I took all the test elements for a First
'Phone 49 years ago. I've seen the test elements for an Extra
of that time.

Where?

Back then those test elements were only given by FCC examiners. They
were not legally available to folks like you (outside of FCC). In fact,
back then
FCC required 2 years' experience as a General or higher license just to
*try*
the Extra test.

Dick Bash disagreed with you then and he disagrees with you now.

The Commercial license was still more difficult
than the amateur...NOT because I took any, but because the
Commercial license covered a LOT more EM territory, a LOT more
modes in Commercial radio then.

But you don't really know because you didn't take both. Some of those
who *did*
take both say the Extra written was "harder".

It's important that you should work harder for a hobby endeavor than
for a commercial endeavor.

"A Morse Code Exam would be a barrier to Morse Code use." N2EY

I agreed with you then and I agree with you now.

Bill Sohl wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
wrote:

Before Restructuring took effect in 2000, the Extra
code test rate was 20 WPM.

Unless a medical waiver was obtained, in which case the
Extra could be had for a code test of as little as 5 wpm.

The "modern" Extra class license was added in the 1951
restructuring that also added the Novice and Technician
class licenses. The code test speed
for the Extra was set at 20 wpm at that time.

That's kinda funny. The "modern" Extra is, therefore,
54 years old.

Yep. Introduced as part of the restructuring of 1951.

How long did the pre-modern Extra
exist before 1951.

For a few years in the mid-1920s, there was an amateur license
called the "Amateur Extra First Grade" IIRC. It required more
testing than the standard amateur license, and allowed certain
additional privileges. It wasn't very popular because the additional
privileges were about 200 meter operation, and the exodus to
the short waves had already begun.

That was before FCC and even FRC.

Or even better, how long did
radio as a practical medium exist before 1951.

Well, that depends on what you mean by "a practical medium".

But a half-century is about right.

What does that have to do with the license class?

Heil, quit being the snotty lil kid trying to turn tables. That
makes YOU look dumb. I took all the test elements for a First
'Phone 49 years ago. I've seen the test elements for an Extra
of that time.

Where?
Back then those test elements were only given by FCC examiners.
They were not legally available to folks like you (outside of FCC).

The legality of the availability of actual test info has never been
proven either way. Bash made the info available and was never
challenged. The FCC let it all go by which isn't proof absolute
that it may or may not have been legal, but the absence of action
ultimately made it legal over the long haul.

We're talking about two different things, Bill.

Len claims to have seen a 1957 version of the test for Extra, and says
it wasn't as hard as the First 'Phone of that time.

While it is not absolutely impossible for him to have seen that exam,
it
is highly improbable that he ever saw that exam, because it was simply
not available to people who neither worked for FCC nor took the amateur
exams. FCC kept the tests under lock and key. One can only imagine
the reaction of an FCC examiner in 1957 if someone asked to see the
Extra class written test just to see how hard it was.

I wish Phil Kane, K2ASP, would weigh in on this.

Now to Dick Bash...

Bash did his thing in the early 1970s - more than a decade after Len's
supposed look at the Extra test of 1957. He never got a look at the
written
tests, though. What he did was to ask people who had just taken the
tests
what was on them, and paid for any useful information they could
recall.
He essentially reverse-engineered the tests without actually seeing
them.
His books were not the exact tests but were very, very close, with only
trivial differences.

Yes, FCC did not go after him legally. And the whole issue became moot
a few years later (early 1980s) when FCC made the test contents public.


The plain simple fact is that at least some of those who took and
passed both
the First 'Phone and the Amateur Extra say the Extra was harder. I've
not
heard of anyone who took and passed both exams say the First 'Phone was
harder.


73 de Jim, N2EY

wrote:
From: "Bill Sohl" on Mon 21 Nov 2005 16:42
wrote in message
wrote:

Before Restructuring took effect in 2000, the Extra
code test rate was 20 WPM.

Unless a medical waiver was obtained, in which case the
Extra could be had for a code test of as little as 5 wpm.

The "modern" Extra class license was added in the 1951
restructuring that also added the Novice and Technician
class licenses. The code test speed
for the Extra was set at 20 wpm at that time.

That's kinda funny. The "modern" Extra is, therefore,
54 years old. How long did the pre-modern Extra
exist before 1951. Or even better, how long did
radio as a practical medium exist before 1951.

I wish these Extra Morsemen would get their stories
straight. Heil thinks the 1950s were ancient history
and won't accept it. :-)

Len, you claimed to have seen an Amateur Extra written
exam in 1957. How, exactly, did that happen?

Back then those test elements were only given by FCC examiners.
They were not legally available to folks like you (outside of FCC).

The legality of the availability of actual test info has never been
proven either way. Bash made the info available and was never
challenged. The FCC let it all go by which isn't proof absolute
that it may or may not have been legal, but the absence of action
ultimately made it legal over the long haul.

There were "Q&A" books on tests-and-answers for radio
and electricity back in the ancient history days of
the 1950s. Hardbound, not the best quality paper,
roughly the size of a Reader's Digest Condensed Book.

There were a number of such books. But they were not the actual
exam. Looking at a study guide book is not the same thing as seeing
the actual exam.

Did you see the actual exam, Len, or just one of the study guides?

There was no hue and cry over those "Q&A" books then.

Because they weren't the actual exam.

FCC issued "study guides" that outlined the subject areas of the
various
tests. Anyone could write questions and answers based on those tests,
but they would not be the actual exam.

Gene Hubbel's "H and H Electronics" store in Rockford
Illinois had the amateur radio test editions for sale.
Both partners were pre-WW2 hams, Gene (SK) had W9ERU
then, later W7DI after moving to Arizona in retirement.
Gene was a morseman and had a couple certificates for
passing greater than 60 WPM using morse and a "mill."

Did you call him names like "mighty macho morseman", Len? ;-)

Dick Bash and his schools came later. Why he got
bashed so harshly is still curious to me.

His method of gathering the information violated the spirit
if not the letter of the law. The law of that time, anyway.

wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
From: on Wed 16 Nov 2005 19:09
wrote:
From: "Bill Sohl" on Wed 16 Nov 2005 08:35
wrote in message
an old friend wrote:
wrote:
Bill Sohl wrote:

Way back in time the pro-coders managed to set themselves up as
"extra" amateurs BECAUSE of their telegraphy skill, all through
lobbying to keep morse code as the "hot ticket."

Not true, Len.

ABSOLUTELY TRUE, Miccolis. Everyone realizes it. Why not
admit that it is so?

Let's go through it, shall we? Pro-coders (one can only wonder if Len
means those who favored morse testing, those who favored morse use or
those who were simply proficient at morse code) made up their own
regulations. It isn't explained how or if these "pro-coders" all became
Extra Class ticket holders. Extra Class license holders can't obtain
that license without passing the most difficult theory and regulatory
written exam offered in U.S. amateur radio and not all of those with
morse code skills became Extra Class licensees. Len's statement appears
to have some gaping holes.

Tsk, tsk, tsk. NO "holes," Heil. An abbreviated synopsis
is all.

Big holes, Len.

Before Restructuring took effect in 2000, the Extra code test
rate was 20 WPM.

Unless a medical waiver was obtained, in which case the Extra
could be had for a code test of as little as 5 wpm.

The "modern" Extra class license was added in the 1951 restructuring
that
also added the Novice and Technician class licenses. The code test
speed
for the Extra was set at 20 wpm at that time.

That's what Len said.

No, it isn't. He left out the part about the medical waivers, which
became a reality in 1990.

Why? Because the older-timers influencing
the NAAR lobbyists thought they were hot snit for amateur
radio because so many had been professional telegraphers.

No, that's not true at all.

It does have that appearance.

How?

The ARRL did not create the Extra class license in 1951. They did
not lobby for it either.

Why don't hams working for the FCC have
to put away their licenses as to not incur a conflict of interest?

What hams worked at FCC in 1951?

That would like having a big oil president and vice president holding
oil stocks.

Do you think they don't?

It was a way of keeping the old pro status past retirement.
Since they were already skilled in telegraphy, they got a free
set of perquisites in a HOBBY activity.

What about the thousands of others - like myself - who earned the
license because we wanted the privileges? In my case, that was
in 1970, at the age of 16.

You mom and dad provided you with three hots and a cot.

So? That's what responsible parents do.

I also had to go to school and make acceptable grades. Do all assigned
chores at home and work (yes, I worked then). Plus all the usual
activities of a kid my age back then.

Prove that the "old First Phone" examination was "less hard"
than the Amateur Extra exam. You never completed that last
test element on your alleged Commercial radio operator license
and could only get a SECOND class.

Kindly prove that the old Amateur Extra was less difficult than the old
First Phone.

Heil, quit being the snotty lil kid trying to turn tables. That
makes YOU look dumb. I took all the test elements for a First
'Phone 49 years ago. I've seen the test elements for an Extra
of that time.

Where?

Back then those test elements were only given by FCC examiners. They
were not legally available to folks like you (outside of FCC). In fact,
back then
FCC required 2 years' experience as a General or higher license just to
*try*
the Extra test.

Dick Bash disagreed with you then and he disagrees with you now.

How? Dick Bash did not see the actual exams except by taking them.

The Commercial license was still more difficult
than the amateur...NOT because I took any, but because the
Commercial license covered a LOT more EM territory, a LOT more
modes in Commercial radio then.

But you don't really know because you didn't take both. Some of those
who *did* take both say the Extra written was "harder".

It's important that you should work harder for a hobby endeavor than
for a commercial endeavor.

Wasn't too hard for a 16 year old between 10th and 11th grade. In fact,
I'd have gotten it more than a year earlier except for the 2 year
waiting
period.

"A Morse Code Exam would be a barrier to Morse Code use." N2EY

Brian Burke, you have written that quote here several times, and
claimed I
wrote it. But I did not write that sentence - you did. Check google and
show us what I actually wrote on that subject.

I agreed with you then and I agree with you now.

You're only agreeing with something you wrote. Not what I wrote.

Mr Bash was a very honorable man and the one of the
finest ham radio operators to ever key a microphone.
His contributions to ham radio could fill volumes of books.
His contributions to ham radio were only exceeded by the
many unselfish hours he donated to bringing youth into
ham radio. Mr Bash is truly one of ham radio's finest.

wrote:

There were "Q&A" books on tests-and-answers for radio
and electricity back in the ancient history days of
the 1950s. Hardbound, not the best quality paper,
roughly the size of a Reader's Digest Condensed Book.

There was no hue and cry over those "Q&A" books then.
Gene Hubbel's "H and H Electronics" store in Rockford
Illinois had the amateur radio test editions for sale.
Both partners were pre-WW2 hams, Gene (SK) had W9ERU
then, later W7DI after moving to Arizona in retirement.
Gene was a morseman and had a couple certificates for
passing greater than 60 WPM using morse and a "mill."

The questions in those books were 'typical' of what one would expect on
the test. What you got on the test would be similar, but not exactly
like in the Q&A guides, and it wasn't all multiple choice either, there
were problems that had to be actually worked out.


Dick Bash and his schools came later. Why he got
bashed so harshly is still curious to me. It might
have been that his school/book logo had two four-
letter words in it? :-)

Bash would hang outside the door of the examining office and catch hams
as they came out. He would ask them to write down all the questions they
could remember. The FCC only had several different exams on each
element. Bash then compiled a book of the exact questions that could
appear on any of the exam sheets along with the answers. That made it a
simple memorizing exercise to pass the test. Many hams, and rightly so,
looked at that as cheating, just as it would be in school or college.

From: on Nov 21, 4:44 pm

wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
From: on Wed 16 Nov 2005 19:09
wrote:
From: "Bill Sohl" on Wed 16 Nov 2005 08:35
wrote in message
an old friend wrote:
wrote:
Bill Sohl wrote:

snipped blah blah...


The "modern" Extra class license was added in the 1951 restructuring that
also added the Novice and Technician class licenses. The code test speed
for the Extra was set at 20 wpm at that time.

That's what Len said. But when you say it, it just takes longer.
Congratulations.

Jimmie no accept what I write. He good at long answers
which say the same thing, but then he say he wrote it best. :-)


Why? Because the older-timers influencing
the NAAR lobbyists thought they were hot snit for amateur
radio because so many had been professional telegraphers.

No, that's not true at all.

It does have that appearance. Why don't hams working for the FCC have
to put away their licenses as to not incur a conflict of interest?
That would like having a big oil president and vice president holding
oil stocks.

In 1951 there was no Internet, no easy way to "talk" to the
FCC except through legal outfits and lobbying organizations
all using the "proper" format in their paperwork. Everything
was surface mail if you couldn't afford special couriers.
The League could afford a legal firm then and they filed
nice legalese documents with the Commission. With a relative
scarcity of correspondence incoming they could pay attention
to the League then. The League enjoyed a high place on
amateur regulation correspondence with the FCC then. Any
individual writing longhand, without legal terms or in any
"approved" format got chuckled at. Things were more
"patrician" then.

Things are a bit different now. Internet access to ALL
government is faster than overnight express mail. FCC has
to accept ALL filings. By law. The correspondence on hot-
ticket Dockets is enormous compared to more than a half
century ago. ALL radio has increased in scope and the FCC
is stuck with having to regulate an enormous set of radio
services affecting millions and millions more than existed
in 1951.

In 1951, as in 1956, the ENTIRE set of regulations of the
FCC could be put in a medium-sized loose-leaf binder. The
nicely-printed sheets were already punched for that and one
could be on a subscription list from the USGPO to receive
update pages. Before 2001 the entire set of regulations
wound up taking FIVE volumes of softbound books and printed
new every two years. Those who had Federal Register
subscriptions could get "updates" also in 1951 but by 2001
those updates could be obtained from the Federal Register
online.

While your remark about conflict of interest has merit,
Brian, I would remind everyone that regulation of amateur
radio is a SMALL part of the total FCC regulatory
requirement. Part 13, Title 47 C.F.R., has the regulations
for Commercial Radio Operator licenses. I count 10 of
those from my 1995 bound edition of Title 47. FCC has
to regulate COLEMs as well as the VEC. It would be
difficult to have any "conflict of interest" at the FCC
on the basis of having only ONE out of 13 (or even 16)
different operator licenses.


It was a way of keeping the old pro status past retirement.
Since they were already skilled in telegraphy, they got a free
set of perquisites in a HOBBY activity.

What about the thousands of others - like myself - who earned the
license because we wanted the privileges? In my case, that was
in 1970, at the age of 16.

You mom and dad provided you with three hots and a cot. Unless you
were raised in an orphanage where the Christians or the County provided
the three hots and a cot.

Jimmie looks at himself as the "model" of what all others did,
namely getting his in his teen years. Apparently, indoctrination
during teen years is somehow spay-shul, more important than
doing so later in life.

Jimmie did not MAKE any of the test regulations he passed. But,
he passed them, so therefore all others must be like him? He
had not achieved many years of expertise in radio communications
then but now he will say he did. Jimmie just passed the tests
which were put in place by much older regulators, lobbied for by
much older radio amateurs than he.

Jimmie still doesn't regulate any radio service and still
endeavors to hold the status as much quo as when he first
achieved Extra at the ripe old age of 16 (35 years ago?).



Prove that the "old First Phone" examination was "less hard"
than the Amateur Extra exam. You never completed that last
test element on your alleged Commercial radio operator license
and could only get a SECOND class.

Kindly prove that the old Amateur Extra was less difficult than the old
First Phone.

Heil, quit being the snotty lil kid trying to turn tables. That
makes YOU look dumb. I took all the test elements for a First
'Phone 49 years ago. I've seen the test elements for an Extra
of that time.

Where?

In one of the harbor cities of Los Angeles. Available in various
forms but limited to photocopies and mimeographed re-typed form.
The "Xerox machine" hadn't got into production yet in 1957.
Passed around by hand, of course. :-)

Back then those test elements were only given by FCC examiners. They
were not legally available to folks like you (outside of FCC). In fact,
back then
FCC required 2 years' experience as a General or higher license just to
*try* the Extra test.

Dick Bash disagreed with you then and he disagrees with you now.

The "Q&A" (Question and Answer) books got their info by various
ways, including interviews with those who had passed the different
tests. If they somehow purloined the test information they
weren't prosecuted for it...

Anyone perusing the Copyright laws of the United States will find
out that DIRECT REPRODUCTION of any U.S. government work is not
quite punishable; the Copyright laws forbid the government from
copyrighting their own work! The legal ramifications of that
have to be worked out by legal people as to whether such things
are forbidden to reproduce OR to reveal.

As you say, the Dick Bash organization is still in business
after many years (I think those old Q&A books might still be
printed too), so the "Bash Books" weren't the high crime they
were reputed to be in urban legend. shrug


The Commercial license was still more difficult
than the amateur...NOT because I took any, but because the
Commercial license covered a LOT more EM territory, a LOT more
modes in Commercial radio then.

But you don't really know because you didn't take both. Some of those
who *did* take both say the Extra written was "harder".

[tsk, self-aggrandizement and done after-the-fact]

It's important that you should work harder for a hobby endeavor than
for a commercial endeavor.

Of course, since some say "it's the most important thing in
life!" :-)


"A Morse Code Exam would be a barrier to Morse Code use." N2EY

I agreed with you then and I agree with you now.

I too agree with that Miccolis statement, adding a "hear! hear!"



With a beep beep here, a beep beep there, everywhere a beep beep...

From: on Nov 21, 4:44 pm

wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
From: on Wed 16 Nov 2005 19:09
wrote:
From: "Bill Sohl" on Wed 16 Nov 2005 08:35
wrote in message
an old friend wrote:
wrote:
Bill Sohl wrote:

snipped blah blah...


The "modern" Extra class license was added in the 1951 restructuring that
also added the Novice and Technician class licenses. The code test speed
for the Extra was set at 20 wpm at that time.

That's what Len said. But when you say it, it just takes longer.
Congratulations.

Jimmie no accept what I write. He good at long answers
which say the same thing, but then he say he wrote it best. :-)


Why? Because the older-timers influencing
the NAAR lobbyists thought they were hot snit for amateur
radio because so many had been professional telegraphers.

No, that's not true at all.

It does have that appearance. Why don't hams working for the FCC have
to put away their licenses as to not incur a conflict of interest?
That would like having a big oil president and vice president holding
oil stocks.

In 1951 there was no Internet, no easy way to "talk" to the
FCC except through legal outfits and lobbying organizations
all using the "proper" format in their paperwork. Everything
was surface mail if you couldn't afford special couriers.
The League could afford a legal firm then and they filed
nice legalese documents with the Commission. With a relative
scarcity of correspondence incoming they could pay attention
to the League then. The League enjoyed a high place on
amateur regulation correspondence with the FCC then. Any
individual writing longhand, without legal terms or in any
"approved" format got chuckled at. Things were more
"patrician" then.

Things are a bit different now. Internet access to ALL
government is faster than overnight express mail. FCC has
to accept ALL filings. By law. The correspondence on hot-
ticket Dockets is enormous compared to more than a half
century ago. ALL radio has increased in scope and the FCC
is stuck with having to regulate an enormous set of radio
services affecting millions and millions more than existed
in 1951.

In 1951, as in 1956, the ENTIRE set of regulations of the
FCC could be put in a medium-sized loose-leaf binder. The
nicely-printed sheets were already punched for that and one
could be on a subscription list from the USGPO to receive
update pages. Before 2001 the entire set of regulations
wound up taking FIVE volumes of softbound books and printed
new every two years. Those who had Federal Register
subscriptions could get "updates" also in 1951 but by 2001
those updates could be obtained from the Federal Register
online.

While your remark about conflict of interest has merit,
Brian, I would remind everyone that regulation of amateur
radio is a SMALL part of the total FCC regulatory
requirement. Part 13, Title 47 C.F.R., has the regulations
for Commercial Radio Operator licenses. I count 10 of
those from my 1995 bound edition of Title 47. FCC has
to regulate COLEMs as well as the VEC. It would be
difficult to have any "conflict of interest" at the FCC
on the basis of having only ONE out of 13 (or even 16)
different operator licenses.


It was a way of keeping the old pro status past retirement.
Since they were already skilled in telegraphy, they got a free
set of perquisites in a HOBBY activity.

What about the thousands of others - like myself - who earned the
license because we wanted the privileges? In my case, that was
in 1970, at the age of 16.

You mom and dad provided you with three hots and a cot. Unless you
were raised in an orphanage where the Christians or the County provided
the three hots and a cot.

Jimmie looks at himself as the "model" of what all others did,
namely getting his in his teen years. Apparently, indoctrination
during teen years is somehow spay-shul, more important than
doing so later in life.

Jimmie did not MAKE any of the test regulations he passed. But,
he passed them, so therefore all others must be like him? He
had not achieved many years of expertise in radio communications
then but now he will say he did. Jimmie just passed the tests
which were put in place by much older regulators, lobbied for by
much older radio amateurs than he.

Jimmie still doesn't regulate any radio service and still
endeavors to hold the status as much quo as when he first
achieved Extra at the ripe old age of 16 (35 years ago?).



Prove that the "old First Phone" examination was "less hard"
than the Amateur Extra exam. You never completed that last
test element on your alleged Commercial radio operator license
and could only get a SECOND class.

Kindly prove that the old Amateur Extra was less difficult than the old
First Phone.

Heil, quit being the snotty lil kid trying to turn tables. That
makes YOU look dumb. I took all the test elements for a First
'Phone 49 years ago. I've seen the test elements for an Extra
of that time.

Where?

In one of the harbor cities of Los Angeles. Available in various
forms but limited to photocopies and mimeographed re-typed form.
The "Xerox machine" hadn't got into production yet in 1957.
Passed around by hand, of course. :-)

Back then those test elements were only given by FCC examiners. They
were not legally available to folks like you (outside of FCC). In fact,
back then
FCC required 2 years' experience as a General or higher license just to
*try* the Extra test.

Dick Bash disagreed with you then and he disagrees with you now.

The "Q&A" (Question and Answer) books got their info by various
ways, including interviews with those who had passed the different
tests. If they somehow purloined the test information they
weren't prosecuted for it...

Anyone perusing the Copyright laws of the United States will find
out that DIRECT REPRODUCTION of any U.S. government work is not
quite punishable; the Copyright laws forbid the government from
copyrighting their own work! The legal ramifications of that
have to be worked out by legal people as to whether such things
are forbidden to reproduce OR to reveal.

As you say, the Dick Bash organization is still in business
after many years (I think those old Q&A books might still be
printed too), so the "Bash Books" weren't the high crime they
were reputed to be in urban legend. shrug


The Commercial license was still more difficult
than the amateur...NOT because I took any, but because the
Commercial license covered a LOT more EM territory, a LOT more
modes in Commercial radio then.

But you don't really know because you didn't take both. Some of those
who *did* take both say the Extra written was "harder".

[tsk, self-aggrandizement and done after-the-fact]

It's important that you should work harder for a hobby endeavor than
for a commercial endeavor.

Of course, since some say "it's the most important thing in
life!" :-)


"A Morse Code Exam would be a barrier to Morse Code use." N2EY

I agreed with you then and I agree with you now.

I too agree with that Miccolis statement, adding a "hear! hear!"



With a beep beep here, a beep beep there, everywhere a beep beep...

wrote:
wrote:
From: on Wed 16 Nov 2005 19:09
wrote:
From: "Bill Sohl" on Wed 16 Nov 2005 08:35
wrote in message
an old friend wrote:
wrote:
Bill Sohl wrote:

Way back in time the pro-coders managed to set themselves up as
"extra" amateurs BECAUSE of their telegraphy skill, all through
lobbying to keep morse code as the "hot ticket."

Would that be in 1951 (when the Extra as we know it was created) or
some other time like the 1960s?

Before Restructuring took effect in 2000, the Extra code test
rate was 20 WPM. Why? Because the older-timers influencing
the NAAR lobbyists thought they were hot snit for amateur
radio because so many had been professional telegraphers.

Who, exactly, are you talking about, Len? Who are the "older timers"
and the "NAAR lobbyists?"

You seem to be saying that back about 1951 the ARRL lobbied for
the creation of the Extra, with its 20 wpm code test. Is that what
you meant?

It was a way of keeping the old pro status past retirement.
Since they were already skilled in telegraphy, they got a free
set of perquisites in a HOBBY activity.

Only if they passed the Extra written, as has already been pointed
out. But that's a different issue.

wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
From: on Wed 16 Nov 2005 19:09
wrote:
From: "Bill Sohl" on Wed 16 Nov 2005 08:35
wrote in message
an old friend wrote:
wrote:
Bill Sohl wrote:

Way back in time the pro-coders managed to set themselves up as
"extra" amateurs BECAUSE of their telegraphy skill, all through
lobbying to keep morse code as the "hot ticket."

Not true, Len.

ABSOLUTELY TRUE, Miccolis. Everyone realizes it. Why not
admit that it is so?

Let's go through it, shall we? Pro-coders (one can only wonder if Len
means those who favored morse testing, those who favored morse use or
those who were simply proficient at morse code) made up their own
regulations. It isn't explained how or if these "pro-coders" all became
Extra Class ticket holders. Extra Class license holders can't obtain
that license without passing the most difficult theory and regulatory
written exam offered in U.S. amateur radio and not all of those with
morse code skills became Extra Class licensees. Len's statement appears
to have some gaping holes.

Tsk, tsk, tsk. NO "holes," Heil. An abbreviated synopsis
is all.

Big holes, Len.

Before Restructuring took effect in 2000, the Extra code test
rate was 20 WPM.

Unless a medical waiver was obtained, in which case the Extra
could be had for a code test of as little as 5 wpm.

The "modern" Extra class license was added in the 1951 restructuring
that
also added the Novice and Technician class licenses. The code test
speed
for the Extra was set at 20 wpm at that time.

That's what Len said.

No, it isn't. He left out the part about the medical waivers, which
became a reality in 1990.

I'm sure that people with disabilities really get under your skin.

Why? Because the older-timers influencing
the NAAR lobbyists thought they were hot snit for amateur
radio because so many had been professional telegraphers.

No, that's not true at all.

It does have that appearance.

How?

The ARRL did not create the Extra class license in 1951. They did
not lobby for it either.

Why don't hams working for the FCC have
to put away their licenses as to not incur a conflict of interest?

What hams worked at FCC in 1951?

That would like having a big oil president and vice president holding
oil stocks.

Do you think they don't?

It was a way of keeping the old pro status past retirement.
Since they were already skilled in telegraphy, they got a free
set of perquisites in a HOBBY activity.

What about the thousands of others - like myself - who earned the
license because we wanted the privileges? In my case, that was
in 1970, at the age of 16.

You mom and dad provided you with three hots and a cot.

So? That's what responsible parents do.

I also had to go to school and make acceptable grades. Do all assigned
chores at home and work (yes, I worked then). Plus all the usual
activities of a kid my age back then.

Or what? Let's say you brought home a "D" in math and science.

Prove that the "old First Phone" examination was "less hard"
than the Amateur Extra exam. You never completed that last
test element on your alleged Commercial radio operator license
and could only get a SECOND class.

Kindly prove that the old Amateur Extra was less difficult than the old
First Phone.

Heil, quit being the snotty lil kid trying to turn tables. That
makes YOU look dumb. I took all the test elements for a First
'Phone 49 years ago. I've seen the test elements for an Extra
of that time.

Where?

Back then those test elements were only given by FCC examiners. They
were not legally available to folks like you (outside of FCC). In fact,
back then
FCC required 2 years' experience as a General or higher license just to
*try*
the Extra test.

Dick Bash disagreed with you then and he disagrees with you now.

How? Dick Bash did not see the actual exams except by taking them.

Then he published them.

The Commercial license was still more difficult
than the amateur...NOT because I took any, but because the
Commercial license covered a LOT more EM territory, a LOT more
modes in Commercial radio then.

But you don't really know because you didn't take both. Some of those
who *did* take both say the Extra written was "harder".

It's important that you should work harder for a hobby endeavor than
for a commercial endeavor.

Wasn't too hard for a 16 year old between 10th and 11th grade. In fact,
I'd have gotten it more than a year earlier except for the 2 year
waiting
period.

"The Man" still keeping you down?

"A Morse Code Exam would be a barrier to Morse Code use." N2EY

Brian Burke, you have written that quote here several times, and
claimed I
wrote it. But I did not write that sentence - you did. Check google and
show us what I actually wrote on that subject.

I agreed with you then and I agree with you now.

You're only agreeing with something you wrote. Not what I wrote.

In all fairness, I should recheck the quote.