Bill Sohl wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
Dick Bash disagreed with you then and he disagrees with you now.

How? Dick Bash did not see the actual exams except by taking them.

Then he published them.

And FCC did nothing about it.
Some in the FCC wanted to prosecute,
but the higher ups didn't allow it.
Phil Kane has told about it first-hand -
he was working in the office where Bash
did his thing at the time.

The only thing that can be derive or concluded
from that is the probable fact that there was
disagreement within the FCC as to the ability to
pursue and win any case against Bash.

Or any of the other reasons. All it takes is one!

Whether Bash broke the letter of the law or not isn't
clear, but it *is* clear that he broke the spirit of the law.

I never met anyone convicted of breaking the spirit
of any law.

BINGO!!!

There's also "innocent until proven guilty".

The other issue that would be in play is
the legality of the law itself on constitutional grounds.

Possibly, but I find it hard to believe that the FCC would
have lost on those grounds. Doing so would set a
precedent that *no* license exam contents could be kept
out of the public view.

Still, FCC may have thought it better not to take that chance.

If, back then, FCC had thought
it was OK for people to see the actual exams,
they would have been published
(as they are now) rather than going
through the additional work of making
up study guides.

That's in your opinion anyway.

It's also common sense. FCC made up study guides consisting
of essay questions that indicated the general areas of knowledge
that would be on the test. Those guides were published - ARRL
reproduced them in their License Manuals (they specifically
mention that fact in the Manual). Why would FCC go through
the trouble to make up those guides if it were OK for non-FCC
people to see the actual exam?

Still, unless there existed specific regulations about divulging
and publishing the exam contents, FCC's case agains Bash
might have been very weak.

The Commercial license was still more difficult
than the amateur...NOT because I took any, but because the
Commercial license covered a LOT more EM territory, a LOT more
modes in Commercial radio then.

But you don't really know because you didn't take both. Some of
those
who *did* take both say the Extra written was "harder".

It's important that you should work harder for a hobby endeavor than
for a commercial endeavor.

Wasn't too hard for a 16 year old between 10th and 11th grade. In fact,
I'd have gotten it more than a year earlier except for the 2 year
waiting period.

"The Man" still keeping you down?

Not at all. Experience was part of the requirement back then. It was
and is a good idea.

I really have no problem with an experience criteria
(e.g.a time interval between General and Extra).

Nor I, but it would make more work for FCC. Right now
anyone can go from any license class or no license at all
to Extra in one exam session. An experience requirement
would mean that many hams would need at least two exam
sessions and two FCC paperwork cycles to get to Extra.
More admin work = not something FCC would like.

Cheers and Happy Thanksgiving to all, I thank the
Lord for all the great and wonderful people and things
in my life.

Well said, Bill! I wish the same to all this fine day.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Reposted for the guys in the Pirate Radio groups.




wrote in message
ups.com...
Bill Sohl wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
Dick Bash disagreed with you then and he disagrees with you now.

How? Dick Bash did not see the actual exams except by taking them.

Then he published them.

And FCC did nothing about it.
Some in the FCC wanted to prosecute,
but the higher ups didn't allow it.
Phil Kane has told about it first-hand -
he was working in the office where Bash
did his thing at the time.

The only thing that can be derive or concluded
from that is the probable fact that there was
disagreement within the FCC as to the ability to
pursue and win any case against Bash.

Or any of the other reasons. All it takes is one!

Whether Bash broke the letter of the law or not isn't
clear, but it *is* clear that he broke the spirit of the law.

I never met anyone convicted of breaking the spirit
of any law.

BINGO!!!

There's also "innocent until proven guilty".

The other issue that would be in play is
the legality of the law itself on constitutional grounds.

Possibly, but I find it hard to believe that the FCC would
have lost on those grounds. Doing so would set a
precedent that *no* license exam contents could be kept
out of the public view.

Still, FCC may have thought it better not to take that chance.

If, back then, FCC had thought
it was OK for people to see the actual exams,
they would have been published
(as they are now) rather than going
through the additional work of making
up study guides.

That's in your opinion anyway.

It's also common sense. FCC made up study guides consisting
of essay questions that indicated the general areas of knowledge
that would be on the test. Those guides were published - ARRL
reproduced them in their License Manuals (they specifically
mention that fact in the Manual). Why would FCC go through
the trouble to make up those guides if it were OK for non-FCC
people to see the actual exam?

Still, unless there existed specific regulations about divulging
and publishing the exam contents, FCC's case agains Bash
might have been very weak.

The Commercial license was still more difficult
than the amateur...NOT because I took any, but because the
Commercial license covered a LOT more EM territory, a LOT
more
modes in Commercial radio then.

But you don't really know because you didn't take both. Some of
those
who *did* take both say the Extra written was "harder".

It's important that you should work harder for a hobby endeavor
than
for a commercial endeavor.

Wasn't too hard for a 16 year old between 10th and 11th grade. In
fact,
I'd have gotten it more than a year earlier except for the 2 year
waiting period.

"The Man" still keeping you down?

Not at all. Experience was part of the requirement back then. It was
and is a good idea.

I really have no problem with an experience criteria
(e.g.a time interval between General and Extra).

Nor I, but it would make more work for FCC. Right now
anyone can go from any license class or no license at all
to Extra in one exam session. An experience requirement
would mean that many hams would need at least two exam
sessions and two FCC paperwork cycles to get to Extra.
More admin work = not something FCC would like.

Cheers and Happy Thanksgiving to all, I thank the
Lord for all the great and wonderful people and things
in my life.

Well said, Bill! I wish the same to all this fine day.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Unlicensed Community Radio wrote:
Reposted for the guys in the Pirate Radio groups.


I guess the guys in the pirate radio groups too stupid to read it here.

wrote in message
ups.com...
Bill Sohl wrote:

I really have no problem with an experience criteria
(e.g.a time interval between General and Extra).

Nor I, but it would make more work for FCC. Right now
anyone can go from any license class or no license at all
to Extra in one exam session. An experience requirement
would mean that many hams would need at least two exam
sessions and two FCC paperwork cycles to get to Extra.
More admin work = not something FCC would like.

Any idea what percent of people actually pass both
the General and the Extra in one session?

I suspect the number is relatively small.

Cheers,
Bill K2UNK

Bill Sohl wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
Bill Sohl wrote:

I really have no problem with an experience criteria
(e.g.a time interval between General and Extra).

Nor I, but it would make more work for FCC. Right now
anyone can go from any license class or no license at all
to Extra in one exam session. An experience requirement
would mean that many hams would need at least two exam
sessions and two FCC paperwork cycles to get to Extra.
More admin work = not something FCC would like.

Any idea what percent of people actually pass both
the General and the Extra in one session?

Probably a considerable number. The number of Generals is pretty stable
while the number of Extras just keeps growing.

Note too that for one VE fee you get one chance at every element you
haven't already passed. If someone goes to a VE session for General,
there's no harm or cost (except time) if they try the Extra while
they're at it. I've known more than a few hams who went to a VE session
intending on the General and who came home with an Extra.

Not a new thing, either. Way back in 1968, when I went to the FCC
office at 2nd & Chestnut to take the General, the examiner suggested
that I try the Advanced while I was there. No additional cost and since
I had the General in the bag, it would actually save him some work in
the future. A 14-year-old with any sense at all did not say "no" to The
Man, so I tried the Advanced written, and passed.

I suspect the number is relatively small.

Check the AH0A site under "new licenses". While most hams start out as
Techs,
every month a small but not negligible number go straight to General or
Extra.

Regardless of the number, I doubt FCC would bring back the experience
requirement after 30 years without one. Particularly since they'd have
to
enforce it.

73 es HT de Jim, N2EY

wrote in message
ups.com...
Bill Sohl wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
Bill Sohl wrote:
I really have no problem with an experience criteria
(e.g.a time interval between General and Extra).

Nor I, but it would make more work for FCC. Right now
anyone can go from any license class or no license at all
to Extra in one exam session. An experience requirement
would mean that many hams would need at least two exam
sessions and two FCC paperwork cycles to get to Extra.
More admin work = not something FCC would like.

Any idea what percent of people actually pass both
the General and the Extra in one session?

Probably a considerable number. The number of Generals is pretty stable
while the number of Extras just keeps growing.

Note too that for one VE fee you get one chance at every element you
haven't already passed. If someone goes to a VE session for General,
there's no harm or cost (except time) if they try the Extra while
they're at it. I've known more than a few hams who went to a VE session
intending on the General and who came home with an Extra.

Not a new thing, either. Way back in 1968, when I went to the FCC
office at 2nd & Chestnut to take the General, the examiner suggested
that I try the Advanced while I was there. No additional cost and since
I had the General in the bag, it would actually save him some work in
the future. A 14-year-old with any sense at all did not say "no" to The
Man, so I tried the Advanced written, and passed.

I suspect the number is relatively small.

Check the AH0A site under "new licenses".
While most hams start out as Techs,
every month a small but not negligible
number go straight to General or Extra.

That's my question, how small is that number?
Also, the AH0A site doesn't truly indicate if
someone went immediately from Tech to Extra
at the same VE session so the ability to determine
how many did so via AH0A stats isn't accurate.

Regardless of the number,
I doubt FCC would bring back the experience
requirement after 30 years without one.
Particularly since they'd have to enforce it.

What's to enforce? All it comes down to is license issuing.

Seems all the FCC need do is not allow the upgrade unless
the applicant has 'N' years of elapsed time since getting their
General. The FCC database system could automatically
withhold issuing the Extra unless the time interval is elapsed.
It could even be automatic so the person might pass their
Extra at some point and the FCC system having been notified
of the person passing Extra would then be updated and at
the elapsed time interval, the FCC could then automatically
issue the Extra upgrade. Just some basic software application
reprograming as I see it.

Cheers,
Bill K2UNK

"Bill Sohl" wrote in message
nk.net...

wrote in message
ups.com...
Bill Sohl wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
Bill Sohl wrote:
I really have no problem with an experience criteria
(e.g.a time interval between General and Extra).

Nor I, but it would make more work for FCC. Right now
anyone can go from any license class or no license at all
to Extra in one exam session. An experience requirement
would mean that many hams would need at least two exam
sessions and two FCC paperwork cycles to get to Extra.
More admin work = not something FCC would like.

Any idea what percent of people actually pass both
the General and the Extra in one session?

Probably a considerable number. The number of Generals is pretty stable
while the number of Extras just keeps growing.

Note too that for one VE fee you get one chance at every element you
haven't already passed. If someone goes to a VE session for General,
there's no harm or cost (except time) if they try the Extra while
they're at it. I've known more than a few hams who went to a VE session
intending on the General and who came home with an Extra.

Not a new thing, either. Way back in 1968, when I went to the FCC
office at 2nd & Chestnut to take the General, the examiner suggested
that I try the Advanced while I was there. No additional cost and since
I had the General in the bag, it would actually save him some work in
the future. A 14-year-old with any sense at all did not say "no" to The
Man, so I tried the Advanced written, and passed.

I suspect the number is relatively small.

Check the AH0A site under "new licenses".
While most hams start out as Techs,
every month a small but not negligible
number go straight to General or Extra.

That's my question, how small is that number?
Also, the AH0A site doesn't truly indicate if
someone went immediately from Tech to Extra
at the same VE session so the ability to determine
how many did so via AH0A stats isn't accurate.

Regardless of the number,
I doubt FCC would bring back the experience
requirement after 30 years without one.
Particularly since they'd have to enforce it.

What's to enforce? All it comes down to is license issuing.

Seems all the FCC need do is not allow the upgrade unless
the applicant has 'N' years of elapsed time since getting their
General. The FCC database system could automatically
withhold issuing the Extra unless the time interval is elapsed.
It could even be automatic so the person might pass their
Extra at some point and the FCC system having been notified
of the person passing Extra would then be updated and at
the elapsed time interval, the FCC could then automatically
issue the Extra upgrade. Just some basic software application
reprograming as I see it.

Cheers,
Bill K2UNK




That would not work, because of the rampant corruption in
the FCC & ARRL.

Bill Sohl wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
Bill Sohl wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
Bill Sohl wrote:
I really have no problem with an experience criteria
(e.g.a time interval between General and Extra).

Nor I, but it would make more work for FCC. Right now
anyone can go from any license class or no license at all
to Extra in one exam session. An experience requirement
would mean that many hams would need at least two exam
sessions and two FCC paperwork cycles to get to Extra.
More admin work = not something FCC would like.

Any idea what percent of people actually pass both
the General and the Extra in one session?

Probably a considerable number. The number of Generals is pretty stable
while the number of Extras just keeps growing.

Note too that for one VE fee you get one chance at every element you
haven't already passed. If someone goes to a VE session for General,
there's no harm or cost (except time) if they try the Extra while
they're at it. I've known more than a few hams who went to a VE session
intending on the General and who came home with an Extra.

Not a new thing, either. Way back in 1968, when I went to the FCC
office at 2nd & Chestnut to take the General, the examiner suggested
that I try the Advanced while I was there. No additional cost and since
I had the General in the bag, it would actually save him some work in
the future. A 14-year-old with any sense at all did not say "no" to The
Man, so I tried the Advanced written, and passed.

I suspect the number is relatively small.

Check the AH0A site under "new licenses".
While most hams start out as Techs,
every month a small but not negligible
number go straight to General or Extra.

That's my question, how small is that number?
Also, the AH0A site doesn't truly indicate if
someone went immediately from Tech to Extra
at the same VE session so the ability to determine
how many did so via AH0A stats isn't accurate

It's impossible to accurately determine *upgrades* from AH0A's
numbers. An upgrade is classed as a modification, same as an address
or name change.

But if you look at the number of new licenses, it's clear that at least
some
new hams bypass Tech and go straight for General or Extra. AH0A's
numbers only count as "new" licenses where the licensee was not
in the database at all during the previous month.

Of course some "new" licenses are actually "retread" hams, who let
their licenses lapse for whatever reason and now are back.

Regardless of the number,
I doubt FCC would bring back the experience
requirement after 30 years without one.
Particularly since they'd have to enforce it.

What's to enforce? All it comes down to is license issuing.

Seems all the FCC need do is not allow the upgrade unless
the applicant has 'N' years of elapsed time since getting their
General. The FCC database system could automatically
withhold issuing the Extra unless the time interval is elapsed.
It could even be automatic so the person might pass their
Extra at some point and the FCC system having been notified
of the person passing Extra would then be updated and at
the elapsed time interval, the FCC could then automatically
issue the Extra upgrade. Just some basic software application
reprograming as I see it.

Actually the enforcement would fall upon the VEs anyway. They'd
be required to only give the Extra test to those who could show
a General or Advanced license that had been issued at least
X amount of time previously. Form 605 could be changed so
that you'd have to indicate the effective date of the General, etc.

So it really wouldn't be an FCC enforcement thing at all.

OTOH, it would increase FCC admin work slightly because they'd
have more upgrades to process.

The big hurdle would be selling FCC on the idea that an experience
requirement is needed, after 30 years without one. That selling job
would rival convincing them that a 5 wpm code test is still
needed.......;-)

73 de Jim, N2EY



Cheers,
Bill K2UNK

FCC & ARRL partners in the Culture of Corruption

wrote in message
ups.com...
Bill Sohl wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
Bill Sohl wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
Bill Sohl wrote:
I really have no problem with an experience criteria
(e.g.a time interval between General and Extra).

Nor I, but it would make more work for FCC. Right now
anyone can go from any license class or no license at all
to Extra in one exam session. An experience requirement
would mean that many hams would need at least two exam
sessions and two FCC paperwork cycles to get to Extra.
More admin work = not something FCC would like.

Any idea what percent of people actually pass both
the General and the Extra in one session?

Probably a considerable number. The number of Generals is pretty stable
while the number of Extras just keeps growing.

Note too that for one VE fee you get one chance at every element you
haven't already passed. If someone goes to a VE session for General,
there's no harm or cost (except time) if they try the Extra while
they're at it. I've known more than a few hams who went to a VE session
intending on the General and who came home with an Extra.

Not a new thing, either. Way back in 1968, when I went to the FCC
office at 2nd & Chestnut to take the General, the examiner suggested
that I try the Advanced while I was there. No additional cost and since
I had the General in the bag, it would actually save him some work in
the future. A 14-year-old with any sense at all did not say "no" to The
Man, so I tried the Advanced written, and passed.

I suspect the number is relatively small.

Check the AH0A site under "new licenses".
While most hams start out as Techs,
every month a small but not negligible
number go straight to General or Extra.

That's my question, how small is that number?
Also, the AH0A site doesn't truly indicate if
someone went immediately from Tech to Extra
at the same VE session so the ability to determine
how many did so via AH0A stats isn't accurate

It's impossible to accurately determine *upgrades* from AH0A's
numbers. An upgrade is classed as a modification, same as an address
or name change.

But if you look at the number of new licenses, it's clear that at least
some
new hams bypass Tech and go straight for General or Extra. AH0A's
numbers only count as "new" licenses where the licensee was not
in the database at all during the previous month.

Of course some "new" licenses are actually "retread" hams, who let
their licenses lapse for whatever reason and now are back.

Regardless of the number,
I doubt FCC would bring back the experience
requirement after 30 years without one.
Particularly since they'd have to enforce it.

What's to enforce? All it comes down to is license issuing.

Seems all the FCC need do is not allow the upgrade unless
the applicant has 'N' years of elapsed time since getting their
General. The FCC database system could automatically
withhold issuing the Extra unless the time interval is elapsed.
It could even be automatic so the person might pass their
Extra at some point and the FCC system having been notified
of the person passing Extra would then be updated and at
the elapsed time interval, the FCC could then automatically
issue the Extra upgrade. Just some basic software application
reprograming as I see it.

Actually the enforcement would fall upon the VEs anyway. They'd
be required to only give the Extra test to those who could show
a General or Advanced license that had been issued at least
X amount of time previously. Form 605 could be changed so
that you'd have to indicate the effective date of the General, etc.

Why should an applicant be prohibited from taking and passing
the test? The time interval should be limiting the actual
license issuance...not serve as a roadblock to taking the
test at any time.

So it really wouldn't be an FCC enforcement thing at all.

OTOH, it would increase FCC admin work slightly because they'd
have more upgrades to process.

The big hurdle would be selling FCC on the idea that an experience
requirement is needed, after 30 years without one. That selling job
would rival convincing them that a 5 wpm code test is still
needed.......;-)

We'll likly never know :-)

Cheers,
Bill K2UNK