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On Aug 18, 7:06 pm, American Insurgent wrote:

I live in Clovis, California (just outside Fresno), 180 miles from
Sacramento, and get hdtv on channels 3, 13, and 58 almost every day,
using a Channel Master 1160A antenna mounted with rotor on a 20-ft
mast. Some days I also get channels 10, 29, and 40 from Sacramento.
Reception is usually strong enough in the mornings and at night. I
have also, on occasion, received hdtv stations from the bay area, 200
miles from me.

I used to live in Paradise, a few miles from you. We put a large UHF yagi up
in a tree and aimed it for San Francisco. We could get a fair picture in the
morning and evening, but nothing but snow during the day. Because of a
mountain intervening, we really didn't get much signal at all from Sacto.
Our best signal was from "Perfect 36".

On Aug 19, 3:12 pm, "Brenda Ann" wrote:


I used to live in Paradise, a few miles from you. We put a large UHF yagi up

Paradise is well over 250 miles from Clovis/Fresno. Fresno is between
San Francisco and Los Angeles whereas Paradise is Near Chico, or even
closer to Magalia, California.

When I lived in Sacramento, I got analog channels from Chico, Redding,
Reno, San Francisco, San Jose, Salinas, Concord, and sometimes even
from Fresno. With the SAME antenna, I would expect to also get the
digital signals from those same stations.

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On Aug 19, 3:12 pm, "Brenda Ann" wrote:


I used to live in Paradise, a few miles from you. We put a large UHF yagi
up

Paradise is well over 250 miles from Clovis/Fresno. Fresno is between
San Francisco and Los Angeles whereas Paradise is Near Chico, or even
closer to Magalia, California.


Chalk it up to getting old. I confused Chico with Fresno (not a lot of
difference between the two, though. Both are like living in hell with a few
trees. Fresno is a few degrees hotter..

On Aug 19, 5:18 pm, wrote:
On Aug 19, 3:12 pm, "Brenda Ann" wrote:



I used to live in Paradise, a few miles from you. We put a large UHF yagi up

Paradise is well over 250 miles from Clovis/Fresno. Fresno is between
San Francisco and Los Angeles whereas Paradise is Near Chico, or even
closer to Magalia, California.

When I lived in Sacramento, I got analog channels from Chico, Redding,
Reno, San Francisco, San Jose, Salinas, Concord, and sometimes even
from Fresno. With the SAME antenna, I would expect to also get the
digital signals from those same stations.

I have been to Paradise, CA -and- I have been to Hell . . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell%2C_California

On Aug 19, 4:12 pm, "Brenda Ann" wrote:
wrote in message

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On Aug 18, 7:06 pm, American Insurgent wrote:

I live in Clovis, California (just outside Fresno), 180 miles from
Sacramento, and get hdtv on channels 3, 13, and 58 almost every day,
using a Channel Master 1160A antenna mounted with rotor on a 20-ft
mast. Some days I also get channels 10, 29, and 40 from Sacramento.
Reception is usually strong enough in the mornings and at night. I
have also, on occasion, received hdtv stations from the bay area, 200
miles from me.

I used to live in Paradise, a few miles from you. We put a large UHF yagi up
in a tree and aimed it for San Francisco. We could get a fair picture in the
morning and evening, but nothing but snow during the day. Because of a
mountain intervening, we really didn't get much signal at all from Sacto.
Our best signal was from "Perfect 36".


You probably had a sunrise/sunset effect, if I call it something Ace
will scream at me so I'll just leave it at that. Channel 36 put out a
powerful signal for 20 years until the early 2000s. When I was a kid
in the 1980s a standard tabletop rabbit ears antenna with a loop would
pick it up quite easily in Roseville, 140 miles from San Jose. Even if
San Francisco stations weren't coming in, 36 would come in. Then
around five years ago they abruptly vanished. I suspect that the old
transmitter croaked and the station replaced it with a much less
muscular unit.

I always thought it was a shame that 36 had such crappy programming
for the signal they put out. They were an old fashioned independent
station-lots of old movies and cheap reruns. 36 had very little self-
produced programming. The self-produced local show had largely
disappeared from most TV (except PBS, and even they got most of their
stuff from WGBH) by 36's heyday. The advent of satellites and VCRs
meant that stations could fill airtime without resorting to producing
much of their own stuff.

It also meant that the stations could operate 24 hours, instead of
shutting down after the 11 pm news and going back on at 7 am. By the
late 80s stations were signing off only once a week for transmitter
maintenance. A few years after that, they perfected the science of
staying on while doing maintenance, and all TV became 24 hours. I used
to love staying up late in the summer (when there was no school) and
watching the stations sign off Sunday night for maintenance. By then
it was one of the few ways they could express themselves. Channel 40
in Sacramento had 2 minute opinion programs for a long time, until
people got too dumb to tell opinion from regular programming or to
recognize opinion when they saw it (what's this?), and the station was
rendered unable to express management's opinions.

By the way, I decided to manually enter EVERY SINGLE CHANNEL into the
TV to see what popped up, and got a couple surprises. Univision is on
channel 18, just like the list said, although weak. There's a
Christian station on HD Channel 48 that's not on the list. Apparently
it's the HD service of analog channel 29, which once ran a short lived
family programming network called Pax. Today, it's running a network
called Ion-on a mind boggling FOUR channels. One is Ion, one is
"qubo", apparently a Christian children's network, one is Ion Life,
and a fourth is "Worship", apparently Christian music videos. Channel
13 runs a second channel for sporting events.

Entering the analog channel into the box will cause the first
subchannel of the HD service of the analog station to pop up-IF you
have already entered the HD channel in. I got no signal on channel 29
until I manually went to HD channel 48. The Samsung box goes up to
channel 69, even though I read once that HD only went up to 62. If you
look at the HD channel list, it turns the order of stations that had
been accepted for 60 years on its head. There are very few VHF
channels anywhere, and in Sacramento, Univision is on channel 18 while
ABC has been exiled to channel 61. It's gonna result in a lot of
disorientation until people adapt. But I'm the guy who was thrown for
a loop when CBS and ABC switched channels with each other in
Sacramento, so what do I know.

On Aug 19, 2:39 pm, K Isham wrote:
American Insurgent wrote:
I recently plunked down $650 to be able to get HDTV. That includes
$290 Polaroid 19" LCD HDTV, $180 Samsung HDTV set top box, $70 for an
HDTV indoor antenna, and a whopping $65 for a special cable called an
HDMI cable (in addition to tax). I watched some OTA HDTV tonight, and
was disappointed. Many programs are not yet in full HDTV, including
ABC World News. This results in blank space on the sides. Some
commercials are in standard def, which on HDTV makes additional blank
space on the top and bottom, giving an effect of the signal "floating"
on a sea of darkness.

Furthermore, the signal was jerky, like streaming internet video, with
frequent pixelation. I even lost the signal for a few seconds, after
which I checked to see if there was a "trip wire" in the settings that
I could turn down or off. I once had a Panasonic TV that would give
you a blue screen if the signal got too low. That I could turn off;
this I can't. If the signal gets too low with the Samsung STB, it will
give you a "weak signal" screensaver.

Some stations are squeezing two signals on one HDTV channel. In two
cases, the second channel is a 24/7 weather channel with local weather
reports; in a third case the Fox station has a music video service
called "The Tube" on their second channel. The PBS station has an
amazing THREE stations on one channel! One is their regular channel,
one is a second channel that is usually available only on cable, and a
third is V-me, a PBS service for Latinos in Spanish. The Univision
(Spanish language) channel supposedly has an HDTV service, but there's
nothing there.

Some reports have said that HDTV from different cities is available in
Sacramento; my antenna won't pick it up. I suppose that if I had an
outdoor antenna on a pole I'd get it. Two channels, including a local
weather channel and the HDTV signal of a second tier station, are weak
and keep cutting out. If this is HDTV after years of government
pressure and millions spent, it's clearly not ready for prime time so
to speak. Hopefully by switch time they'll have ironed out the bugs.

My setup at first wouldn't pick up several stations with the slew
buttons; I had to download an HDTV channel list off the net, then
manually enter those stations into memory. Even more confusing, the
Samsung box lists channels not by their HDTV assignment, but by their
standard def channel, a hyphen, and a subchannel, ex. 6-1, 6-2, and
6-3 instead of Channel 53. You can USE the HD channel, but it switches
you right back to this hyphenated system on the display. I suppose
this is to ease the transition, and to allow subchannels, but you are
left not only with two channel numbers for one station but something
less than true HDTV, since stations force two or three services onto
one HD channel. I doubt that was the FCC's intention.

I suspect that when people realize that they're being forced into HDTV-
with beaucoup dollar amounts required to switch-only to get standard
def, they'll be mad. I'm an electronics geek anyway, so for me it was
worth it. But Joe Sixpack will spend this sort of outlay and find his
HD experience reduced so that his local TV station can bring him 24
hour weather or music videos, and start talking a blue streak.

I use a MAC-Mini attached to my ELGATO EyeTV 500 HD converter with the
Samsung 213T 21 inch display.
The nearest transmitter is some 30 miles from my house, with most of
them 50 miles.
Like you, I was initially disappointed that most of the stations
broadcast 2 or 3 channels per channel, but I like the fact that the
picture comes in crystal clear. On my ABC affiliate "Lost" really comes
alive as compared to the analog signal and in 5.1 surround sound.
I also use the MAC-Mini to record and burn the DVD of the shows I like.
although I don't have Blue-Ray yet, the computer has to convert it back
to regular definition which takes some time, but it looks as good as if
I bought the regular DVD from the store.
I normally work Swing-shift so it comes in handy.
I think that if Joe-six-pack where to be shown what is possible with the
new system then he wouldn't scream so much.

Ken.

Americans were the same people who screamed when the country tried to
switch to metric, so I don't know how well HDTV is gonna be swallowed.
The expense alone will give people sticker shock. Our local cable
system is not keeping up-they only have four local HD channels,
instead of the smorgasbord you can find over the air. If Comcast
doesn't get its act together they're gonna lose customers to DirecTV
and plain old antennas. DirecTV plans 100 digital channels. Comcast
charges an ADDITIONAL $10 to get HD, and then offers a grand total of
about 10 channels. I can get more than that with an antenna, when
subchannels are factored in. Maybe Comcast is counting on their
current business model, which is to offer internet where AT&T can't
offer DSL, then strongarm internet subscribers into coughing up for
TV. I suspect that as the telcos and the cable companies get more and
more aggressive in monopolizing the internet that people will switch
to satellite internet services like Wild Blue, which today mainly
cater to rural folk away from DSL and cable.

On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 18:49:56 -0700, American Insurgent wrote:
have already entered the HD channel in. I got no signal on channel 29
until I manually went to HD channel 48. The Samsung box goes up to

Sounds like the station is programmed improperly and isn't sending a
proper "TVCT" ("Virtual Channel Table").

channel 69, even though I read once that HD only went up to 62.

In the interim, DTV stations are possible on all 68 channels. The FCC
*tried* to avoid assigning interim channels above 51 (and especially above
59) but in some areas, like California, it simply wasn't possible.

I count only 17 interim DTV facilities above channel 59. However, three
of them are in Northern California. (and five in Los Angeles)

All of these go away in about 18 months. When the analog signals are shut
down in February 2009, all DTV stations above channel 51 will move to
lower channels. In most cases, that means their current analog channel
will be reactivated as digital. See below.

look at the HD channel list, it turns the order of stations that had
been accepted for 60 years on its head. There are very few VHF
channels anywhere, and in Sacramento, Univision is on channel 18 while
ABC has been exiled to channel 61. It's gonna result in a lot of

The current DTV channels are considered interim, for the transition
process. Many of them will change on Transition Day in February 2009.
Definitely ABC in Sacramento, because channel 61 will no longer be a valid
TV channel!

In Sacramento:
Channel 3: Interim 35, stays on 35.
Channel 6: Interim 53, moves to 9.
(after the SF analog station on that channel shuts down; SF will remain
on channel 30)
Channel 10: Interim 61, returns to 10.
Channel 13: Interim 25, stays on 25.
Channel 19: Interim 18, stays on 18.
Channel 29: Interim 48, stays on 48.
Channel 31: Interim 21, stays on 21.
Channel 40: Interim 55, returns to 40.
Channel 58: Interim 46, stays on 46.
Channel 64: Interim 62, moves to 26.
(after the SF analog station on that channel shuts down; SF will remain
on channel 27)

When you get up on the morning of February 18, 2009, you'll have to go
into your TV's setup menu and do another channel scan, to find your locals
on their new channels. You may have to do it more than once during that
week as I suspect some stations may not get moved to their new channels
quite on time...

On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 21:42:38 +0900, Brenda Ann wrote:
Some channels will NEVER be "HDTV". The system only ALLOWS for HDTV. The
stations have the choice of either a single HDTV channel, OR up to FIVE
lower resolution channels. I can see most network channels running HD only
during prime time or sporting events for the most part, while leaving the
option open to run other services during the day.

You can have HDTV plus another SDTV (standard-resolution) channel.

Actually, to the best of my knowledge there is no hard limit on how many
channels you can offer - you could in theory have five HDTV channels - but
the necessary compression would probably yield five unintelligible
macroblock-filled channels. I do know of stations running one HDTV and
two SDTVs though one of the SDTVs is usually a weather forecast which can
live with a very small bandwidth allocation.

But the station I work for does run one HDTV and one SDTV (as does one of
our competitors) and it works fine.

A handful of PBS stations are already running multiple subchannels during
the day, then shutting down the subchannels at night in favor of a single
HD channel. That plan works well with PBS' mission, not so much so for
commercial stations. (I don't think you'll see much of it on commercial
operations)

You will need an outdoor antenna to get a good usable digital signal.

Not necessarily true. I live in a typical single-story brick ranch house
25 miles from the transmitters. I get reliable reception from four
stations with rabbit ears.

It does require an outdoor antenna to get the other stations; that said,
the *analog* signals I get from those stations on rabbit ears are
something nobody would watch anyway.

Generally, if a given antenna gives you a stable analog signal that your
mother-in-law would watch without complaining, it'll probably give you
stable DTV reception. Unless the station is skimping on power. (unlikely
in large markets, quite likely in small ones.)

On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 01:17:50 -0700, RHF wrote:
Note - Most of the new HDTV Channels are UHF 14-83 and only
require the smaller UHF 'size' TV Antennas -but- these are also
more directional : Hence the Built-in-Rotor.

Most, but not all! In San Francisco, NBC (KNTV-11) is already on VHF
channel 12, and ABC will be moving to VHF channel 7 in 18 months, when
their analog vacates the channel.

In Sacramento, there are no VHF DTVs now, but on Transition Day PBS
(KVIE-6) and ABC (KXTV-10) will be moving to VHF channels 9 and 10
respectively.

Likewise in other cities.

Salespeople at "big box" stores will tell you you MUST buy a new HDTV
antenna for use with your new HDTV. The antennas they sell are nearly
always UHF-only. Do not expect to receive all your local stations if you
buy their special antenna. It may work now, but some of your channels may
disappear in 2009.

If the antenna you already have on your old analog set is working OK, it
will be fine for HDTV.

Doug Smith W9WI wrote:
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 01:17:50 -0700, RHF wrote:
Note - Most of the new HDTV Channels are UHF 14-83 and only
require the smaller UHF 'size' TV Antennas -but- these are also
more directional : Hence the Built-in-Rotor.

Most, but not all! In San Francisco, NBC (KNTV-11) is already on VHF
channel 12, and ABC will be moving to VHF channel 7 in 18 months, when
their analog vacates the channel.

In Sacramento, there are no VHF DTVs now, but on Transition Day PBS
(KVIE-6) and ABC (KXTV-10) will be moving to VHF channels 9 and 10
respectively.

Likewise in other cities.

Salespeople at "big box" stores will tell you you MUST buy a new HDTV
antenna for use with your new HDTV. The antennas they sell are nearly
always UHF-only. Do not expect to receive all your local stations if you
buy their special antenna. It may work now, but some of your channels may
disappear in 2009.

If the antenna you already have on your old analog set is working OK, it
will be fine for HDTV.