I recently plunked down $650 to be able to get HDTV. That includes
$290 Polaroid 19" LCD HDTV, $180 Samsung HDTV set top box, $70 for an
HDTV indoor antenna, and a whopping $65 for a special cable called an
HDMI cable (in addition to tax). I watched some OTA HDTV tonight, and
was disappointed. Many programs are not yet in full HDTV, including
ABC World News. This results in blank space on the sides. Some
commercials are in standard def, which on HDTV makes additional blank
space on the top and bottom, giving an effect of the signal "floating"
on a sea of darkness.

Furthermore, the signal was jerky, like streaming internet video, with
frequent pixelation. I even lost the signal for a few seconds, after
which I checked to see if there was a "trip wire" in the settings that
I could turn down or off. I once had a Panasonic TV that would give
you a blue screen if the signal got too low. That I could turn off;
this I can't. If the signal gets too low with the Samsung STB, it will
give you a "weak signal" screensaver.

Some stations are squeezing two signals on one HDTV channel. In two
cases, the second channel is a 24/7 weather channel with local weather
reports; in a third case the Fox station has a music video service
called "The Tube" on their second channel. The PBS station has an
amazing THREE stations on one channel! One is their regular channel,
one is a second channel that is usually available only on cable, and a
third is V-me, a PBS service for Latinos in Spanish. The Univision
(Spanish language) channel supposedly has an HDTV service, but there's
nothing there.

Some reports have said that HDTV from different cities is available in
Sacramento; my antenna won't pick it up. I suppose that if I had an
outdoor antenna on a pole I'd get it. Two channels, including a local
weather channel and the HDTV signal of a second tier station, are weak
and keep cutting out. If this is HDTV after years of government
pressure and millions spent, it's clearly not ready for prime time so
to speak. Hopefully by switch time they'll have ironed out the bugs.

My setup at first wouldn't pick up several stations with the slew
buttons; I had to download an HDTV channel list off the net, then
manually enter those stations into memory. Even more confusing, the
Samsung box lists channels not by their HDTV assignment, but by their
standard def channel, a hyphen, and a subchannel, ex. 6-1, 6-2, and
6-3 instead of Channel 53. You can USE the HD channel, but it switches
you right back to this hyphenated system on the display. I suppose
this is to ease the transition, and to allow subchannels, but you are
left not only with two channel numbers for one station but something
less than true HDTV, since stations force two or three services onto
one HD channel. I doubt that was the FCC's intention.

I suspect that when people realize that they're being forced into HDTV-
with beaucoup dollar amounts required to switch-only to get standard
def, they'll be mad. I'm an electronics geek anyway, so for me it was
worth it. But Joe Sixpack will spend this sort of outlay and find his
HD experience reduced so that his local TV station can bring him 24
hour weather or music videos, and start talking a blue streak.

"American Insurgent" wrote in message
ups.com...
Many programs are not yet in full HDTV, including
ABC World News. This results in blank space on the sides. Some
commercials are in standard def, which on HDTV makes additional blank
space on the top and bottom, giving an effect of the signal "floating"
on a sea of darkness.

Some channels will NEVER be "HDTV". The system only ALLOWS for HDTV. The
stations have the choice of either a single HDTV channel, OR up to FIVE
lower resolution channels. I can see most network channels running HD only
during prime time or sporting events for the most part, while leaving the
option open to run other services during the day.


Furthermore, the signal was jerky, like streaming internet video, with
frequent pixelation. I even lost the signal for a few seconds, after
which I checked to see if there was a "trip wire" in the settings that
I could turn down or off. I once had a Panasonic TV that would give
you a blue screen if the signal got too low. That I could turn off;
this I can't. If the signal gets too low with the Samsung STB, it will
give you a "weak signal" screensaver.

You will need an outdoor antenna to get a good usable digital signal. Where
rabbit ears, etc. type indoor antennas can normally get a usable (though
often poor) picture, they will not work well for a digital stream.

My setup at first wouldn't pick up several stations with the slew
buttons; I had to download an HDTV channel list off the net, then
manually enter those stations into memory. Even more confusing, the
Samsung box lists channels not by their HDTV assignment, but by their
standard def channel, a hyphen, and a subchannel, ex. 6-1, 6-2, and
6-3 instead of Channel 53. You can USE the HD channel, but it switches
you right back to this hyphenated system on the display. I suppose
this is to ease the transition, and to allow subchannels, but you are
left not only with two channel numbers for one station but something
less than true HDTV, since stations force two or three services onto
one HD channel. I doubt that was the FCC's intention.

Again, it's not HDTV, it's DIGITAL TV, with the OPTION for the station to
use the entire bandwidth for an HDTV signal.

I suspect that when people realize that they're being forced into HDTV-
with beaucoup dollar amounts required to switch-only to get standard
def, they'll be mad. I'm an electronics geek anyway, so for me it was
worth it. But Joe Sixpack will spend this sort of outlay and find his
HD experience reduced so that his local TV station can bring him 24
hour weather or music videos, and start talking a blue streak.


Joe Sixpack most likely doesn't even notice a difference between HD and
Analog (though there is one, most don't notice or care... after working as a
repair tech for decades, I've seen it more than a few times where a customer
would gripe about how their picture looked worse after I changed a CRT... of
course it did.. with the 3/4 dead CRT that was replaced, they couldn't see
the ghosting or the snow.

On Aug 18, 7:06 pm, American Insurgent wrote:

Furthermore, the signal was jerky, like streaming internet video, with
frequent pixelation. I even lost the signal for a few seconds, after

Depending on where you live in Sacramento, signals can be very weak
and require and outdoor antenna. Most stations broadcast their signal
from Walnut Grove. I lived in Sacramento for 23 years and fully
understand the reception problems there. If you live in South
Sacramento, you are more apt to have a strong enough signal to use an
indoor antenna for a digital signal, but even then, what works in one
house may not work in the house next door. With a properly installed
outdoor antenna, WITH rotor, you should have NO problem getting all
the Sacramento stations perfect, AS WELL AS some of the San Francisco
stations. This will usually require a large UHF-VHF tv antenna.
Note: There is no such thing as an hdtv antenna. ALL television
antennas are hdtv-analog compatible. Another factor in Sacramento is
antenna height. Look around. You will see THOUSANDS of tv antennas
mounted on 20-ft to 40-ft masts with a rotor, on a roof top.

I live in Clovis, California (just outside Fresno), 180 miles from
Sacramento, and get hdtv on channels 3, 13, and 58 almost every day,
using a Channel Master 1160A antenna mounted with rotor on a 20-ft
mast. Some days I also get channels 10, 29, and 40 from Sacramento.
Reception is usually strong enough in the mornings and at night. I
have also, on occasion, received hdtv stations from the bay area, 200
miles from me.

Some stations are squeezing two signals on one HDTV channel. In two

That's the bonus with hdvt/digital tv. MORE program choices. In
future years, you may find that channel 40.1 is regular FOX, 40.2
might be FOX NEWS CHANNEL, 40.3 might be FOX MOVIE CHANNEL, etc.

Some reports have said that HDTV from different cities is available in
Sacramento; my antenna won't pick it up. I suppose that if I had an

Of course your indoor antenna won't pick them up. But with the proper
outdoor antenna, the stations you pick up will be perfect - no snow.
Generally speaking, whatever worked for analog reception will work for
digital reception, AS LONG AS the analog reception was good, not
weak. So IF you got, for example, channel 2 in San Francisco, snow-
free with an indoor antenna, you would probably also get their hdtv
signal using the SAME indoor antenna.

Be careful with these out-dated internet lists of hdtv channels. I
have found that the stations are still experimenting and have changed
channels on me at least once. Most Sacramento and Fresno stations
have gone back to using their analog channel numbers instead of the
ones posted on the internet. Unlike most cities, both Sacramento and
Fresno are using both UHF AND VHF channels for hdtv.

In Fresno, our signals are much stronger than you get in Sacramento,
yet my mothers new digital tv got no signal using the BEST non-
amplified indoor antenna made - a 2-bay bowtie with screen. I got her
an amplified antenna, and now all but one of the Fresno hdtv stations
come in, but still occasionally she loses a signal for a few seconds.
In general, indoor antennas are NOT a good choice for a digital
signal.

On Aug 19, 6:03 am, Mike wrote:
In article ,
"Brenda Ann" wrote:

You will need an outdoor antenna to get a good usable digital signal. Where
rabbit ears, etc. type indoor antennas can normally get a usable (though
often poor) picture, they will not work well for a digital stream.

Nonsense. I have used 20 year old rabbit ears myself, they work fine
for HDTV. As always, it just depends on how far away you are from the
transmitter. The alignment is critical, of course. You either get a
perfect signal or you get nothing at all by just slightly moving the
antenna.

BUT ! -Why- Always "Fiddle" with a set of Rabbit-Ears Indoors :
When a good 'Fixed" 'passive' HDTV Antenna will produce very
Good Results once it is installed and set-up (pointed-in-the-right-
direction) for many trouble-free Years.

doing it right the frist time saves a lot of 'fiddling'
time and time again over time ~ RHF

On Aug 19, 7:05 am, Zeke Zzzppt wrote:
American Insurgent wrote:
I recently plunked down $650 to be able to get HDTV. That includes
$290 Polaroid 19" LCD HDTV,

Good luck with the "Polaroid"...

I knew 3 people that had a Polaroid VCR/DVD player combo and none of
them lasted for more than 6 months. Service and parts were unobtainable.


Look, I don't expect a TV from Wal-Mart to be that great anyway. I
needed a legit HDTV, and this was the cheapest. Unlike a VCR/DVD
machine, an LCD TV doesn't have any moving parts. Besides, once you
get below $500 or so, everything is made in China, and it's all pretty
much similar quality.

On Aug 19, 5:42 am, "Brenda Ann" wrote:
"American Insurgent" wrote in message

ups.com...

Many programs are not yet in full HDTV, including
ABC World News. This results in blank space on the sides. Some
commercials are in standard def, which on HDTV makes additional blank
space on the top and bottom, giving an effect of the signal "floating"
on a sea of darkness.

Some channels will NEVER be "HDTV". The system only ALLOWS for HDTV. The
stations have the choice of either a single HDTV channel, OR up to FIVE
lower resolution channels. I can see most network channels running HD only
during prime time or sporting events for the most part, while leaving the
option open to run other services during the day.

Furthermore, the signal was jerky, like streaming internet video, with

frequent pixelation. I even lost the signal for a few seconds, after
which I checked to see if there was a "trip wire" in the settings that
I could turn down or off. I once had a Panasonic TV that would give
you a blue screen if the signal got too low. That I could turn off;
this I can't. If the signal gets too low with the Samsung STB, it will
give you a "weak signal" screensaver.

- You will need an outdoor antenna to get a good usable digital
signal.
- Where rabbit ears, etc. type indoor antennas can normally get a
- usable (though often poor) picture, they will not work well for a
- digital stream.

A 'passive' 4-Bay UHF TV Antenna will solve most peoples
UHF ANTENNA = http://cgi.ebay.com/_W0QQitemZ260148015644
HDTV Reception problems for HDTV Stations with-in 35 Miles.

Once installed one of the new "HDTV' {UHF} Antennas outside
and pointed-in-the-right-direction you should have trouble-free
"Free" HDTV Reception for 10~25 Years. - imho ~ RHF

My setup at first wouldn't pick up several stations with the slew
buttons; I had to download an HDTV channel list off the net, then
manually enter those stations into memory. Even more confusing, the
Samsung box lists channels not by their HDTV assignment, but by their
standard def channel, a hyphen, and a subchannel, ex. 6-1, 6-2, and
6-3 instead of Channel 53. You can USE the HD channel, but it switches
you right back to this hyphenated system on the display. I suppose
this is to ease the transition, and to allow subchannels, but you are
left not only with two channel numbers for one station but something
less than true HDTV, since stations force two or three services onto
one HD channel. I doubt that was the FCC's intention.

Again, it's not HDTV, it's DIGITAL TV, with the OPTION for the station to
use the entire bandwidth for an HDTV signal.

I suspect that when people realize that they're being forced into HDTV-
with beaucoup dollar amounts required to switch-only to get standard
def, they'll be mad. I'm an electronics geek anyway, so for me it was
worth it. But Joe Sixpack will spend this sort of outlay and find his
HD experience reduced so that his local TV station can bring him 24
hour weather or music videos, and start talking a blue streak.

Joe Sixpack most likely doesn't even notice a difference between HD and
Analog (though there is one, most don't notice or care... after working as a
repair tech for decades, I've seen it more than a few times where a customer
would gripe about how their picture looked worse after I changed a CRT... of
course it did.. with the 3/4 dead CRT that was replaced, they couldn't see
the ghosting or the snow.

Joe Says : Things Always Look Better On TB After A Six Pack...
Burp !

On Aug 19, 9:05 am, wrote:
On Aug 18, 7:06 pm, American Insurgent wrote:

Furthermore, the signal was jerky, like streaming internet video, with
frequent pixelation. I even lost the signal for a few seconds, after

Depending on where you live in Sacramento, signals can be very weak
and require and outdoor antenna. Most stations broadcast their signal
from Walnut Grove. I lived in Sacramento for 23 years and fully
understand the reception problems there. If you live in South
Sacramento, you are more apt to have a strong enough signal to use an
indoor antenna for a digital signal, but even then, what works in one
house may not work in the house next door. With a properly installed
outdoor antenna, WITH rotor, you should have NO problem getting all
the Sacramento stations perfect, AS WELL AS some of the San Francisco
stations. This will usually require a large UHF-VHF tv antenna.
Note: There is no such thing as an hdtv antenna. ALL television
antennas are hdtv-analog compatible. Another factor in Sacramento is
antenna height. Look around. You will see THOUSANDS of tv antennas
mounted on 20-ft to 40-ft masts with a rotor, on a roof top.

I live in Clovis, California (just outside Fresno), 180 miles from
Sacramento, and get hdtv on channels 3, 13, and 58 almost every day,
using a Channel Master 1160A antenna mounted with rotor on a 20-ft
mast. Some days I also get channels 10, 29, and 40 from Sacramento.
Reception is usually strong enough in the mornings and at night. I
have also, on occasion, received hdtv stations from the bay area, 200
miles from me.

Some stations are squeezing two signals on one HDTV channel. In two

That's the bonus with hdvt/digital tv. MORE program choices. In
future years, you may find that channel 40.1 is regular FOX, 40.2
might be FOX NEWS CHANNEL, 40.3 might be FOX MOVIE CHANNEL, etc.

Some reports have said that HDTV from different cities is available in
Sacramento; my antenna won't pick it up. I suppose that if I had an

Of course your indoor antenna won't pick them up. But with the proper
outdoor antenna, the stations you pick up will be perfect - no snow.
Generally speaking, whatever worked for analog reception will work for
digital reception, AS LONG AS the analog reception was good, not
weak. So IF you got, for example, channel 2 in San Francisco, snow-
free with an indoor antenna, you would probably also get their hdtv
signal using the SAME indoor antenna.

Be careful with these out-dated internet lists of hdtv channels. I
have found that the stations are still experimenting and have changed
channels on me at least once. Most Sacramento and Fresno stations
have gone back to using their analog channel numbers instead of the
ones posted on the internet. Unlike most cities, both Sacramento and
Fresno are using both UHF AND VHF channels for hdtv.

In Fresno, our signals are much stronger than you get in Sacramento,
yet my mothers new digital tv got no signal using the BEST non-
amplified indoor antenna made - a 2-bay bowtie with screen. I got her
an amplified antenna, and now all but one of the Fresno hdtv stations
come in, but still occasionally she loses a signal for a few seconds.
In general, indoor antennas are NOT a good choice for a digital
signal.

TIP - If you buy one of the Amplified (~20dB Gain) HDTV Antennas
that has a Built-in-Rotor and a Remote-Control to operate it.
- - - Try to find one that also has the Directional Controls on the
Controller Box. -IF- You lose or damage the Remote Control at
least you will not be UCWP / DIW ~ RHF

On Aug 19, 11:10 am, American Insurgent wrote:
On Aug 19, 7:05 am, Zeke Zzzppt wrote:

American Insurgent wrote:
I recently plunked down $650 to be able to get HDTV. That includes
$290 Polaroid 19" LCD HDTV,

Good luck with the "Polaroid"...

I knew 3 people that had a Polaroid VCR/DVD player combo and none of
them lasted for more than 6 months. Service and parts were unobtainable.

Look, I don't expect a TV from Wal-Mart to be that great anyway. I
needed a legit HDTV, and this was the cheapest. Unlike a VCR/DVD
machine, an LCD TV doesn't have any moving parts. Besides, once you
get below $500 or so, everything is made in China, and it's all pretty
much similar quality.

AI - Most of the Under-$750-LCD-HDTVs have a Brightness
of ~500 cd/m2 with a relatively good Contrast Ratio of 800:1

While the Over-$1250-HDTVs still have a Brightness of ~500
cd/m2 with a relatively much better Contrast Ratio of 2000:1

The 'quality' of the Picture "definition" is usually seen in the
Picture Contrast : Black picture background vice off-black
-and- relatively Brighter Colors and Color Intensity.

Note - Screen Size and Pixel Resolution being equal.


hdtv - seeing is believing ~ RHF

American Insurgent wrote:
I recently plunked down $650 to be able to get HDTV. That includes
$290 Polaroid 19" LCD HDTV, $180 Samsung HDTV set top box, $70 for an
HDTV indoor antenna, and a whopping $65 for a special cable called an
HDMI cable (in addition to tax). I watched some OTA HDTV tonight, and
was disappointed. Many programs are not yet in full HDTV, including
ABC World News. This results in blank space on the sides. Some
commercials are in standard def, which on HDTV makes additional blank
space on the top and bottom, giving an effect of the signal "floating"
on a sea of darkness.

Furthermore, the signal was jerky, like streaming internet video, with
frequent pixelation. I even lost the signal for a few seconds, after
which I checked to see if there was a "trip wire" in the settings that
I could turn down or off. I once had a Panasonic TV that would give
you a blue screen if the signal got too low. That I could turn off;
this I can't. If the signal gets too low with the Samsung STB, it will
give you a "weak signal" screensaver.

Some stations are squeezing two signals on one HDTV channel. In two
cases, the second channel is a 24/7 weather channel with local weather
reports; in a third case the Fox station has a music video service
called "The Tube" on their second channel. The PBS station has an
amazing THREE stations on one channel! One is their regular channel,
one is a second channel that is usually available only on cable, and a
third is V-me, a PBS service for Latinos in Spanish. The Univision
(Spanish language) channel supposedly has an HDTV service, but there's
nothing there.

Some reports have said that HDTV from different cities is available in
Sacramento; my antenna won't pick it up. I suppose that if I had an
outdoor antenna on a pole I'd get it. Two channels, including a local
weather channel and the HDTV signal of a second tier station, are weak
and keep cutting out. If this is HDTV after years of government
pressure and millions spent, it's clearly not ready for prime time so
to speak. Hopefully by switch time they'll have ironed out the bugs.

My setup at first wouldn't pick up several stations with the slew
buttons; I had to download an HDTV channel list off the net, then
manually enter those stations into memory. Even more confusing, the
Samsung box lists channels not by their HDTV assignment, but by their
standard def channel, a hyphen, and a subchannel, ex. 6-1, 6-2, and
6-3 instead of Channel 53. You can USE the HD channel, but it switches
you right back to this hyphenated system on the display. I suppose
this is to ease the transition, and to allow subchannels, but you are
left not only with two channel numbers for one station but something
less than true HDTV, since stations force two or three services onto
one HD channel. I doubt that was the FCC's intention.

I suspect that when people realize that they're being forced into HDTV-
with beaucoup dollar amounts required to switch-only to get standard
def, they'll be mad. I'm an electronics geek anyway, so for me it was
worth it. But Joe Sixpack will spend this sort of outlay and find his
HD experience reduced so that his local TV station can bring him 24
hour weather or music videos, and start talking a blue streak.

I use a MAC-Mini attached to my ELGATO EyeTV 500 HD converter with the
Samsung 213T 21 inch display.
The nearest transmitter is some 30 miles from my house, with most of
them 50 miles.
Like you, I was initially disappointed that most of the stations
broadcast 2 or 3 channels per channel, but I like the fact that the
picture comes in crystal clear. On my ABC affiliate "Lost" really comes
alive as compared to the analog signal and in 5.1 surround sound.
I also use the MAC-Mini to record and burn the DVD of the shows I like.
although I don't have Blue-Ray yet, the computer has to convert it back
to regular definition which takes some time, but it looks as good as if
I bought the regular DVD from the store.
I normally work Swing-shift so it comes in handy.
I think that if Joe-six-pack where to be shown what is possible with the
new system then he wouldn't scream so much.

Ken.

"Mike" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Brenda Ann" wrote:

You will need an outdoor antenna to get a good usable digital signal.
Where
rabbit ears, etc. type indoor antennas can normally get a usable (though
often poor) picture, they will not work well for a digital stream.

Nonsense. I have used 20 year old rabbit ears myself, they work fine
for HDTV. As always, it just depends on how far away you are from the
transmitter. The alignment is critical, of course. You either get a
perfect signal or you get nothing at all by just slightly moving the
antenna.

Joe Sixpack most likely doesn't even notice a difference between HD and
Analog (though there is one, most don't notice or care... after working
as a
repair tech for decades,

There is HUGE difference in picture quality, especially on a large TV.
I have a 42" plasma set that I don't even watch unless it's an HD
signal, because analog looks so bad.

That's because analog is not in the native resolution of the set. If it
were, you likely would not notice near as much difference. The convertor (in
the display) must take the (nominally 640x480) a/d conversion and multiply
it it to the native resolution of the display (1028x1660?), resulting in a
very ugly, pixellated display.