Ventura is not the real name of any City or Town in California
(California, a fantasy name) I am a Mississippian.Try me out,
California.I will leave y'all sittin at the Post!
cuhulin

"D Peter Maus" wrote in message
...

Are you in the protected contour of WLS?

What is the interferring station? I'm curious about this, and I'm surprised
in this case that WLS has not taken advantage of the provisions for
interference resolution that the FCC established.
Which gets back to the point....denying listeners their choice, in
favor of some arbitrary coverage map. Local listeners not interested in
local offerings are denied their choice.

But the FCC has stressed localism and local stations for about 60 years. In
one case, one dear to me, KLVE 107.5 in LA was top 10 in Santa Barbara (MSA)
based on coverage of the highly grandfatered 29 kw signal atop Mt. Wilson.
However, the FCC protects grandfathered FMs to the extent of the conforming
class B signal and proceeded a couple of years ago to license a new staiton
on 107.7 in the market, completely eliminating the considerable KLVE
listening.

The FCC shows in many more such cases that serendipitous reception is
neither of their interest nor concern. And it has not been for decades; they
go by a strict technical interpretation of allocations.

That's as cavalier as denying phone service, gas, or electric service
to rural customers because the lines are not profitable.

Yet in these cases, the government had to subsidize such services, such as
by the taxes city dwellers pay on the phone bill for rural services, today
and in the past. Sort of like farm subsidies...

At it's core, Broadcast is a utility. And every citizen has a right
to be served. Information that's not available locally is not to be
restricted for corporate profit.

The FCC would restrict this to local service, and they would likely say that
with over 13000 stations, nobody is denied service.

That would be like providing electric to a customer with operational
limitations pursuant to a local agenda. Providing during specified hours,
or at frequencies determined by profitability at the utilities discretion.

In the vast majority of locations, there is far more local service. When I
was in the Traverse City, MI, market, 20 miles north of that city, we had
daytime reception of two AMs and no FM (1960) and at night, got the Chicago
clears and WJR. Today, the market has over a dozen signals, all of which
cover with 64 dbu (FM) or 10 mv/m (AM) signals the location I was at.


The key 35-54 demos will listen to the AM formats if the quality is
better; the staitons that have moved or started FM simulcasts have proven
this.



No, they haven't. They've proven that they will listen to FM, where
they already are. Many won't listen to AM because it's AM. It's old. It's
dark, it's history. They haven't even gotten to the issue of audio
quality. They're not even going to sample it.

35+ will listen to AM. In some cases, like sports, where there are no FM
alternatives, stations like The ticket in Dallas are top 5 25-54. Enhancing
the quality of AM for the over-35's will work. The real issue is that it may
be too late, as talk is rather rapidly migrating to FM (two this week
alone).

But what about the listeners who commute from LA to San Bernardino?
You going to orphan them, too? Now, those are YOUR listeners. But they're
moving out of prime contours every day. They're going to want to take
their favorite station with them. You don't care about them?

To show in the LA book, they have to have residences in LA or Orange
counties. A ratings participant is determined by the market they live in
(the address where the diary is delivered or the PPM is installed) and it
does not matter where they go in the daytime.

However, if a person goes beyond the limits of a useful signal for work or
whatever, they won't listen anyhow. It's not about serving those
lesser-signal areas... it is about listeners who will not listen to weaker
signals, as proven by extensive studies of ratings respndents.

Someone made a killing off me in technology sales in this post alone.
How is that not a loss?

You're seeing this from the position that advertisers tell you to
take. I drop a huge sum every week in discretionary. And according to the
census, I"m far from alone.

I asked several General Managers how many 55+ buys came up so far this year
in several top 10 markets (agencies ask for quotes so stations know about
all business that is coming up) and was told, "none." We can not create
demand for something advertisers do not want.

How is not marketing to me and my kind not a loss? Just the list of
participants in this newsgroup alone, TODAY, represents 6 figures in
consumer electronics.

How is ignoring that not a loss?

There is no money against 55+, unless it is in direct sales in smaller
markets or unrated markets. Agencies don't, as a rule, buy 55+ at all.

Take off the corporate suit, step away from your numbers, and walk as
a listener for a week. See if your numbers take into account where you go
that takes you out of contour, but where you still want your radio station
with you.

Like any other listener, if the station sounds noisy or fades or has
multipath, I change station.

On Sep 5, 2:25 pm, "David Eduardo" wrote:
"D Peter Maus" wrote in ...



Are you in the protected contour of WLS?

What is the interferring station? I'm curious about this, and I'm surprised
in this case that WLS has not taken advantage of the provisions for
interference resolution that the FCC established.

Which gets back to the point....denying listeners their choice, in
favor of some arbitrary coverage map. Local listeners not interested in
local offerings are denied their choice.

But the FCC has stressed localism and local stations for about 60 years. In
one case, one dear to me, KLVE 107.5 in LA was top 10 in Santa Barbara (MSA)
based on coverage of the highly grandfatered 29 kw signal atop Mt. Wilson.
However, the FCC protects grandfathered FMs to the extent of the conforming
class B signal and proceeded a couple of years ago to license a new staiton
on 107.7 in the market, completely eliminating the considerable KLVE
listening.

The FCC shows in many more such cases that serendipitous reception is
neither of their interest nor concern. And it has not been for decades; they
go by a strict technical interpretation of allocations.



That's as cavalier as denying phone service, gas, or electric service
to rural customers because the lines are not profitable.

Yet in these cases, the government had to subsidize such services, such as
by the taxes city dwellers pay on the phone bill for rural services, today
and in the past. Sort of like farm subsidies...



At it's core, Broadcast is a utility. And every citizen has a right
to be served. Information that's not available locally is not to be
restricted for corporate profit.

The FCC would restrict this to local service, and they would likely say that
with over 13000 stations, nobody is denied service.



That would be like providing electric to a customer with operational
limitations pursuant to a local agenda. Providing during specified hours,
or at frequencies determined by profitability at the utilities discretion.

In the vast majority of locations, there is far more local service. When I
was in the Traverse City, MI, market, 20 miles north of that city, we had
daytime reception of two AMs and no FM (1960) and at night, got the Chicago
clears and WJR. Today, the market has over a dozen signals, all of which
cover with 64 dbu (FM) or 10 mv/m (AM) signals the location I was at.



The key 35-54 demos will listen to the AM formats if the quality is
better; the staitons that have moved or started FM simulcasts have proven
this.

No, they haven't. They've proven that they will listen to FM, where
they already are. Many won't listen to AM because it's AM. It's old. It's
dark, it's history. They haven't even gotten to the issue of audio
quality. They're not even going to sample it.

35+ will listen to AM. In some cases, like sports, where there are no FM
alternatives, stations like The ticket in Dallas are top 5 25-54. Enhancing
the quality of AM for the over-35's will work. The real issue is that it may
be too late, as talk is rather rapidly migrating to FM (two this week
alone).



But what about the listeners who commute from LA to San Bernardino?
You going to orphan them, too? Now, those are YOUR listeners. But they're
moving out of prime contours every day. They're going to want to take
their favorite station with them. You don't care about them?

To show in the LA book, they have to have residences in LA or Orange
counties. A ratings participant is determined by the market they live in
(the address where the diary is delivered or the PPM is installed) and it
does not matter where they go in the daytime.

However, if a person goes beyond the limits of a useful signal for work or
whatever, they won't listen anyhow. It's not about serving those
lesser-signal areas... it is about listeners who will not listen to weaker
signals, as proven by extensive studies of ratings respndents.

Someone made a killing off me in technology sales in this post alone.
How is that not a loss?

You're seeing this from the position that advertisers tell you to
take. I drop a huge sum every week in discretionary. And according to the
census, I"m far from alone.

I asked several General Managers how many 55+ buys came up so far this year
in several top 10 markets (agencies ask for quotes so stations know about
all business that is coming up) and was told, "none." We can not create
demand for something advertisers do not want.

How is not marketing to me and my kind not a loss? Just the list of
participants in this newsgroup alone, TODAY, represents 6 figures in
consumer electronics.

How is ignoring that not a loss?

There is no money against 55+, unless it is in direct sales in smaller
markets or unrated markets. Agencies don't, as a rule, buy 55+ at all.

Take off the corporate suit, step away from your numbers, and walk as
a listener for a week. See if your numbers take into account where you go
that takes you out of contour, but where you still want your radio station
with you.

Like any other listener, if the station sounds noisy or fades or has
multipath, I change station.

Would you like a glass of colloidal silver with that?

In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in message
.
..

That would only be a couple of blocks around the 50K station antenna
with Eduardo's 10V/meter contour. Whatever that means.

You don't know what a 10 mv/m contour is?

I don't know what YOU mean by 10 mV/m contour. Care to elaborate?

Be sue not to mix up the u's and V's.

You are doing the equivalent of a spelling flame.... nobody cares in this
context which letters are capitalized.

Nope. This is not a spelling flame. You explained that you do not know
the difference between u meaning micro or 10E-6 and V or volts which is
a unit.

Quote "dBu used to be called dBv but got confused with dBV, and was
changed. It's a decibel measurement of voltage.... as my equivalency
shows."

This is not a typo. You do not understand the technical terms you use.
You do not understand what 10 mV/m means. They are just terms you have
read and regurgitate with no understanding of what they mean.

Thanks for demonstrating once again that you do not know what you are
talking about.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in message
...

So try again marketing hack. Explain the terms you use to express what
it takes for good reception.

"Good reception" is a perception of the listener, not a technical term.

It can and is quantified.

However, based on an enormous amount of data over many many years it can be
seen that outside the 10 mv/m contours of an AM or outside the 64 dBu
contours of an FM, listeners are not interested in tuning in to any
station... there is very close to no reported listening, in fact.

You don't know what 10mV/m or 64 dBu mean. You don't understand the
difference between units and multipliers.

A good example, which obviates "well, at the fringe of a metro, there are
less people to listen" is to take stations that do not fully cover the most
densely populated parts of a metro. On FM, we have looked at over 30 survey
periods in LA with a total sample of over 7000 persons per survey and
plotted the returns for KRCD and KRCV, which are class A FMs. There is
nearly no listening at home or at work outside the 64 dBu contours during
the last 8 years, despite the stations frequently being in the top 10
(simulcast) in LA... all the listening is in a very small area.

Years ago, we looked at the same thing for AMs in general, and found that
the 10 mv/m was the barrier to sustained listening, and, of recent, perhaps
the 15 mv/m is the limit where listeners consider a station listenable.

Snip

Stop using technical terms you don't understand to make a point.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

In article
,
D Peter Maus wrote:

David Eduardo wrote:
"D Peter Maus" wrote in message
...
Are you in the protected contour of WLS?

What is the interferring station? I'm curious about this, and I'm surprised
in this case that WLS has not taken advantage of the provisions for
interference resolution that the FCC established.


I don't know which station it is. You, in fact, last year, were
going to send your engineers out to take some readings on this. Never
heard from you on it.

Snip

Reading are not important to a marketing hack.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

David "I can't help but pose as 'Eduardo' because I have no real grip on
reality", wrote:

"dxAce" wrote in message
...


Weren't you in Traverse City when you'd already claimed to be "living" in
Mexico?

No, that was a summer job at WCCW as board op for the Spanish show from
about 1960 to 1962.

Uh-Huh.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

On Sep 6, 12:09 pm, dxAce wrote:
David "I can't help but pose as 'Eduardo' because I have no real grip on

reality", wrote:
"dxAce" wrote in message
...

Weren't you in Traverse City when you'd already claimed to be "living" in
Mexico?

No, that was a summer job at WCCW as board op for the Spanish show from
about 1960 to 1962.

Uh-Huh.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

That's not the first time he's been caught in a lie. He also lied
about his job title.

David Eduardo wrote:

The main reason advertisers do not target 55+ customers is that the return
on investment is low; it takes so much more advertising to convince older
consumers that the cost of the sale is less than the profit on the sale.




You think that may have something to do with the way the sale is
presented?

Those of us who've been around the block once or twice, don't fall
prey to the marketing pap that younger demographics seem to swallow so
readily. Maybe if you sold the steak instead of the sizzle, you may find
that we're a lot more amenable to the message.

There's a story circulating around Radio Shacks in the Chicago area
(and some areas of Louisiana, as well), about the guy who comes in, and
when a saleshole asks if he can help, the guy says, "Yes, see that open
space over by the Sprint display? Go stand there until my car has left
the parking lot."

I can quote that accurately, because I'm the one who said it. And
I've said it at Best Buy, Circuit City, Audio Consultants...or wherever
someone with more attitude than knowledge tries to sell me something I
don't want.

Truth is, I"m the easiest sell in the world. But don't come to me
with more mouth than brains and expect me to turn loose of a dollar.
I'll abandon a purchase I've already decided to make before I encourage
that kind of crap by paying a commission for it. I'll buy somewhere else.

It's real simple. Tell the truth. Stop the hype, and just tell the
truth. You'll find that there are a lot of us out there who will respond
to that...and selling to us is easier than getting a morning erection.

If it's costing you more to make the sale than you can make on the
sale, then change your pitch. It's not like we don't have the money. And
it's not like we don't spend it. It's that we don't spend with people
who open their mouths with hype, deception and misdirection.

Or as I also say to clerks who lead off with the wrong tack..."Don't
come to me with a mouth full of bull**** and expect me to love your
breath."

This principle has applications in our own conversations, David. I've
been around the business as long as you have. I've heard all the noise.
I've heard all the facts. I've been there. I've watched the industry
grow from an exciting frontier to a mature product, to a commodity sold
like tomatoes at Jerry's in Niles. I hear your statistics. I've seen
them myself. I"ve even used them in my own career. But, and I've said
this to every sales mangler, general mangler, OM, PD and corporate suit
I've ever worked with, "You know what they say about statistics and
liars." If you want to convince me, make an argument that doesn't rely
on tautologically derived statistics. Talk to me like we're both human
beings. With similar experiences, interests, passions and professional
histories. Like the guy at Best Buy, you come to me with a lot of noise,
but very little actual address of my questions and concerns.

You're more dismissive than conversational. You're better than that.
And I don't deserve it.

Just like making a sale to 55+, you need to stop the hype, and just
tell the truth. One on one. Person to person. Not suit to suit.

I had one professor at University who didn't for the first semester
use one mathematical formula in my Physics class. He had a very
compelling reason for that. He told us that Mathematics is a shorthand
for English. It's a language. And that a formula is a sentence. And that
there is nothing you can say mathematically that you can't say in
English. But Mathematics is shorthand. You don't have to really know
what you're doing to use it. So to ensure that he knew that we
understood what we were exposed to, he forbade mathematics in class for
the first semester. Even on tests. We had to say it in English. And
still come up with the correct answers. But we had to write it, say it,
express it without mathematical formulas.

If you want to convince us, here...and we're all passionate about
Radio... say it in English. Talk to us like we're really here, really
involved and really listeners. Sell us, without the hype. Without the
statistics. Just tell the truth in plain English, as though you were
speaking to a group of your friends at a Shakeys around two pitchers and
an 18" Sweep-the-Kitchen.

You may find, like sales people all over the country, that we respond
to that.

Put more simply: If you want to convince us to buy, don't sell like
Herb Tarlek.

You don't impress me as a '75 Cordoba kind of guy, anyway.


Try taking this thinking to your advertisers. If you can convince
them to monetize this demographic, with all it's disposable
income....you'll be a hero. Retire wealthy beyond words, and leave a
legacy with radio and it's listeners that's tacit goal of every
broadcaster who ever sits behind a mic.

You'll also be responsible for reinvigorating Radio at a time when
it's running off its listeners to alternatives who don't treat us like
dog **** on the sole of their boots.

dxAce wrote:

David "I can't help but pose as 'Eduardo' because I have no real grip on
reality", wrote:

"dxAce" wrote in message
...


Weren't you in Traverse City when you'd already claimed to be "living" in
Mexico?

No, that was a summer job at WCCW as board op for the Spanish show from
about 1960 to 1962.

Uh-Huh.

David Eduardo wrote: Hell, also not mentioned was
working all summer at WFAB in
Miami in, I think, 1961. It was the sister station of where I
worked in Cleveland,
and I wanted to be there as it was a Spanish language
station! I also worked
summer of '59 and '60 if I remember the years at WCCW
in Traverse City, ...



dxAce
Michigan
USA