This thread seems to have migrated from a DSP vs. analog discussion to
one of ergonomics of buttons/knobs vs. menus.

What I'd really like to know is if there's any significant reason to
prefer a DSP-based receiver (e.g. the 756Pro-III) over an analog
receiver (e.g. AOR 7030+) on the basic of receiving performance.

Here's where I perceive DSP receivers to have the advantage:

* Sharper, narrower filters without artifacts (e.g. ringing)
* Easy updates via software download (TenTec supports this, does Icom?
(I doubt it))


and for analog:

* Higher dynamic range than most DSP receivers
* Lower cost (typically)
* Better audio


I had a chance to sit down and use a 756Pro-III for a few hours this
weekend, and I must say the spectrum scope is an addictive feature!

On Nov 19, 2:25 pm, wrote:
This thread seems to have migrated from a DSP vs. analog discussion to
one of ergonomics of buttons/knobs vs. menus.

What I'd really like to know is if there's any significant reason to
prefer a DSP-based receiver (e.g. the 756Pro-III) over an analog
receiver (e.g. AOR 7030+) on the basic of receiving performance.

Here's where I perceive DSP receivers to have the advantage:

* Sharper, narrower filters without artifacts (e.g. ringing)
* Easy updates via software download (TenTec supports this, does Icom?
(I doubt it))

and for analog:

* Higher dynamic range than most DSP receivers
* Lower cost (typically)
* Better audio

I had a chance to sit down and use a 756Pro-III for a few hours this
weekend, and I must say the spectrum scope is an addictive feature!

Digital filters ring unless they are sloppy. IIR filters ring. FIR
filters don't ring IF the tap coefficients are all positive, but then
the filter is sloppy. With DSP you have more control over the
bandwidth, but no freedom from ringing.

I don't think the 7030 is all that cheap once you buy the filter
daughter board and some crystal filters. The filters don't just
materialize in the radio. You need to solder them or pay someone to do
it.

VistaCruiser1 asked:
What I'd really like to know is if there's any significant reason to
prefer a DSP-based receiver (e.g. the 756Pro-III) over an analog
receiver (e.g. AOR 7030+) on the basic of receiving performance.

Here's where I perceive DSP receivers to have the advantage:

* Sharper, narrower filters without artifacts (e.g. ringing)
* Easy updates via software download (TenTec supports this, does
Icom?
(I doubt it))

and for analog:

* Higher dynamic range than most DSP receivers
* Lower cost (typically)
* Better audio
_________________________________________

Certainly the filters on the Icom 756 PRO III are just awesome - they
don't come much better than that.
The only filters I ever knew "rang" where on very narrow mechanical
filters such as you would use on CW, that is on analogue radio's.

On the 756Pro3 you will get absolutely no ringing at all, even on the
narrowest CW filter settings, and the number of 756Pro3 users who are
ecstatic about the filter performance on CW are well listed in the
eHam reviews, of which there are hundreds of happy owners. See:
http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/4635

No, the 756Pro3 is not firmware upgradeable, but it is the third
incarnation of this radio and you will see the very many users on eHam
who rave about it.
As for getting a radio with the highest dynamic range, I would say
that this is an overated feature. One of my DX pals had a radio with
93dB of close in performance and I never saw him post logs any better
than anyone else. On the other hand, many of the top DXer's are now
using SDR radio's which have a significantly lower close in
performance, yet they are achieving the most amazing results. The
close in of the 7030 is 82dB vs that of the 756Pro3 being 78dB (as
tested by QST) - you will never notice the difference in practical
use.

As for audio, it was true of the early Icom offerings that their audio
was poor, but the latest batch, including the 756Pro3 are very much
better. In fact if you place the 7030 side by side with the 756Pro3
and play them alternatively through a good outboard speaker, I am
willing to bet you will find the 756 audio better = it's really very
good.

Then we have price: yes, the 756Pro3 is expensive, but I never saw on
any of the eHam reviews anyone claiming it was not value for money. I
have owned mine for three years now and the shock of the high price
has long since worn off after experiencing the pleasure of owning one
of the finest performing and engineered radio's in the world. However,
if price is a major consideration, then consider as an alternative the
Icom 746Pro, which is considerably cheaper at about $1,600 - a very
good buy and the identical engine as that used in the 756Pro3.

Finally, if you are considering an SDR (many serious DXer's have
already moved into these, especially the older SDR-IQ), then the only
show in town at the moment is the Italian Perseus - it will land you
at about $1000 and has some great features with performance to match.

Remember, if you choose the 7030+ you are buying yesterday's
technology, the radio has been on the market for about twelve years
now.

John Plimmer, Montagu, Western Cape Province, South Africa
South 33 d 47 m 32 s, East 20 d 07 m 32 s
RX Icom IC-756 PRO III with MW mods
Drake SW8 & ERGO software
Sony 7600D, GE SRIII, Redsun RP2100
BW XCR 30, Sangean 803A.
GE circa 50's radiogram
Antenna's RF Systems DX 1 Pro Mk II, Datong AD-270
Kiwa MW Loop, PAORDT Roelof mini-whip
http://www.dxing.info/about/dxers/plimmer.dx


On Nov 20, 12:25 am, wrote:
This thread seems to have migrated from a DSP vs. analog discussion to
one of ergonomics of buttons/knobs vs. menus.

What I'd really like to know is if there's any significant reason to
prefer a DSP-based receiver (e.g. the 756Pro-III) over an analog
receiver (e.g. AOR 7030+) on the basic of receiving performance.

Here's where I perceive DSP receivers to have the advantage:

* Sharper, narrower filters without artifacts (e.g. ringing)
* Easy updates via software download (TenTec supports this, does Icom?
(I doubt it))

and for analog:

* Higher dynamic range than most DSP receivers
* Lower cost (typically)
* Better audio

I had a chance to sit down and use a 756Pro-III for a few hours this
weekend, and I must say the spectrum scope is an addictive feature!

On Nov 19, 9:59 pm, wrote:

"Remember, if you choose the 7030+ you are buying yesterday's
technology, the radio has been on the market for about twelve years
now."

Dear John,

As I stated originally I do not really want to, nor can I truly, get
into an "argument" over the merits of the ICOM IC-756 Pro III vs. the
AOR AR7030 'Plus,' especially as I have no experience with the ICOM
unit. I know you tried an AOR for about a month or two 10 years ago
but I submit that this experience is not applicable today.

I do wish to comment on your quote (above): "Yesterday's technology"
is pejorative and, frankly, plain wrong, at least with regard to this
receiver. The term "yesterday's technology" is only applicable when
something clearly better has superseded that technology and, so far,
NOTHING - not DSP, SDR, or anything else - has done so.

I own a pair of Klipschorns. Have you ever heard them? I first heard
one when I was fourteen years old and I never forgot that sound. I
never, ever, thought I would ultimately be able to own a pair but, in
the event, I did. This "technology" has been on the market virtually
unchanged since 1946! 60 years! I have heard many, many speakers over
the years - including quite a few that cost FAR more than the
Klipschorns - but I have NEVER heard anything that even comes close!

The reason this speaker is still on the market over 60 years is
because it is just plain great. There is no other word for it.
$40,000.00+ speakers come - and they are touted as the "latest and
greatest" - and then they go - to be replaced by another $40,000.00+
"latest and greatest" ad infinitum and ad nauseum. (See STEREOPHILE
Magazine or THE ABSOLUTE SOUND.) Meanwhile, the Klipschorn just goes
on - continuing to produce the fantastic sound for which it is known
and people, once having heard it, continue to buy it, "yesterday's
technology" or no.

I believe the same argument can be applied to the AOR AR7030 'Plus.' A
piece of gear will be discontinued rather rapidly once sales fall off.
That the sales of this radio have not done so to an appreciable extent
is testimony to the overall high quality of its design. Twelve years
is a long time in the electronics world and the AR7030's longevity
definitely says something! Frankly, I feel your comment is specious
and a bit unworthy of you. Generally your comments are far more
reasoned.

The discussion here about filters is equally wrong - good filters of
whatever kind, properly applied and used, will not "ring" on modern
receivers. I think it almost goes without saying that anyone in the
market for either of these two receivers, or even other receivers of
their caliber, know how to use these radios and will know when to
employ any given filter. It is true that DSP receivers can have a
great many more filters than an analog receiver. And it's also true
that any extra filters for the AR7030 'Plus" will need to be installed
- but this is a very easy task to accomplish. See AOR-UK's web site
for the exact information on how to do it. But it's like gears on a
bicycle. Most riders use only a very few of the twenty-one or so gears
available to them and I suspect that most users of good shortwave
equipment use only a very few of the available filters (I generally
use only three of my five available).

This, of course, is in no way saying that the AR7030 'Plus' is
superior or inferior to the ICOM IC-756 Pro III which, I am sure, is a
fine piece of equipment. Either would probably satisfy the gentleman
who originally started this post. What I, and I suspect he, would
really like to see is a comparison of the two by someone who owns and
uses both - with both in current configurations.

The only thing I can definitely state is that the AOR AR7030 'Plus' -
even configured with several options - will cost far less than the
ICOM IC-756 Pro III and it will perform and will be constructed at
least as well. And, frankly, I do not believe that the ICOM will have
superior sound quality to the AOR; equivalent maybe - it's possible,
of course - but I routinely run the AOR's audio through my sound
system (with the aforementioned Klipschorns) and its sound must be
heard to be believed. You ought to hear the Voice of Russia's "Jazz
Show" this way. Even with an inexpensive external speaker (RCA Radio
Shack Cat. # 40-5000 - $29.95) the AOR's sound is, in a word, amazing.
In my almost fifty years of shortwave listening I have never heard
better.

Best,

Joe

On Nov 20, 11:34 am, Joe Analssandrini
wrote:
On Nov 19, 9:59 pm, wrote:

"Remember, if you choose the 7030+ you are buying yesterday's
technology, the radio has been on the market for about twelve years
now."

Dear John,

As I stated originally I do not really want to, nor can I truly, get
into an "argument" over the merits of the ICOM IC-756 Pro III vs. the
AOR AR7030 'Plus,' especially as I have no experience with the ICOM
unit. I know you tried an AOR for about a month or two 10 years ago
but I submit that this experience is not applicable today.

I do wish to comment on your quote (above): "Yesterday's technology"
is pejorative and, frankly, plain wrong, at least with regard to this
receiver. The term "yesterday's technology" is only applicable when
something clearly better has superseded that technology and, so far,
NOTHING - not DSP, SDR, or anything else - has done so.

I own a pair of Klipschorns. Have you ever heard them? I first heard
one when I was fourteen years old and I never forgot that sound. I
never, ever, thought I would ultimately be able to own a pair but, in
the event, I did. This "technology" has been on the market virtually
unchanged since 1946! 60 years! I have heard many, many speakers over
the years - including quite a few that cost FAR more than the
Klipschorns - but I have NEVER heard anything that even comes close!

The reason this speaker is still on the market over 60 years is
because it is just plain great. There is no other word for it.
$40,000.00+ speakers come - and they are touted as the "latest and
greatest" - and then they go - to be replaced by another $40,000.00+
"latest and greatest" ad infinitum and ad nauseum. (See STEREOPHILE
Magazine or THE ABSOLUTE SOUND.) Meanwhile, the Klipschorn just goes
on - continuing to produce the fantastic sound for which it is known
and people, once having heard it, continue to buy it, "yesterday's
technology" or no.

I believe the same argument can be applied to the AOR AR7030 'Plus.' A
piece of gear will be discontinued rather rapidly once sales fall off.
That the sales of this radio have not done so to an appreciable extent
is testimony to the overall high quality of its design. Twelve years
is a long time in the electronics world and the AR7030's longevity
definitely says something! Frankly, I feel your comment is specious
and a bit unworthy of you. Generally your comments are far more
reasoned.

The discussion here about filters is equally wrong - good filters of
whatever kind, properly applied and used, will not "ring" on modern
receivers. I think it almost goes without saying that anyone in the
market for either of these two receivers, or even other receivers of
their caliber, know how to use these radios and will know when to
employ any given filter. It is true that DSP receivers can have a
great many more filters than an analog receiver. And it's also true
that any extra filters for the AR7030 'Plus" will need to be installed
- but this is a very easy task to accomplish. See AOR-UK's web site
for the exact information on how to do it. But it's like gears on a
bicycle. Most riders use only a very few of the twenty-one or so gears
available to them and I suspect that most users of good shortwave
equipment use only a very few of the available filters (I generally
use only three of my five available).

This, of course, is in no way saying that the AR7030 'Plus' is
superior or inferior to the ICOM IC-756 Pro III which, I am sure, is a
fine piece of equipment. Either would probably satisfy the gentleman
who originally started this post. What I, and I suspect he, would
really like to see is a comparison of the two by someone who owns and
uses both - with both in current configurations.

The only thing I can definitely state is that the AOR AR7030 'Plus' -
even configured with several options - will cost far less than the
ICOM IC-756 Pro III and it will perform and will be constructed at
least as well. And, frankly, I do not believe that the ICOM will have
superior sound quality to the AOR; equivalent maybe - it's possible,
of course - but I routinely run the AOR's audio through my sound
system (with the aforementioned Klipschorns) and its sound must be
heard to be believed. You ought to hear the Voice of Russia's "Jazz
Show" this way. Even with an inexpensive external speaker (RCA Radio
Shack Cat. # 40-5000 - $29.95) the AOR's sound is, in a word, amazing.
In my almost fifty years of shortwave listening I have never heard
better.

Best,

Joe

I like the 21 gear bike analogy.

The AR7030 was originally designed with fidelity in mind. Much of the
audio path is stereo because there was talk of a FM stereo option that
unfortunately never materialized.

Regarding ringing, the sharper the filter, the more it rings. You
can't fight physics. I really annoys me how people think digital is
the solution to everything without really understanding the nuances.

wrote
Regarding ringing, the sharper the filter, the more it rings. You
can't fight physics. I really annoys me how people think digital is
the solution to everything without really understanding the nuances.

You have obviously never worked a top line radio like the Icom IC-756
PRO III on CW with a narrow DSP filter. I assure you that even as
narrow as 50 hertz
THERE IS NO RINGING
If you don't believe me I am quite prepared to e-mail anyone an MP3
recording of the 50 Hertz filter working a beacon.

I also have many DX mates who work CW beacons and use Timewave DSP
filters right down to 8 hertz and I have never heard them complain of
ringing.

John Plimmer, Montagu, Western Cape Province, South Africa
South 33 d 47 m 32 s, East 20 d 07 m 32 s
RX Icom IC-756 PRO III with MW mods
Drake SW8 & ERGO software
Sony 7600D, GE SRIII, Redsun RP2100
BW XCR 30, Sangean 803A.
Antenna's RF Systems DX 1 Pro Mk II, Datong AD-270
Kiwa MW Loop, PAORDT Roelof mini-whip
http://www.dxing.info/about/dxers/plimmer.dx

Excellent information! This has really helped me in my decision making
process.

Right now I'm leaning towards the Icom, but I have a white paper on
the 7030+ on order from the folks who publish Passport to World Band
Radio, so I think I'll hold my final decision until I read it.

In fact, if the review in the while paper is good, I might just invoke
Jerry's Law: "If you can't decide between two choices, buy both!"

On Nov 21, 1:04 pm, wrote:
Excellent information! This has really helped me in my decision making
process.

Right now I'm leaning towards the Icom, but I have a white paper on
the 7030+ on order from the folks who publish Passport to World Band
Radio, so I think I'll hold my final decision until I read it.

In fact, if the review in the while paper is good, I might just invoke
Jerry's Law: "If you can't decide between two choices, buy both!"

Dear Sir,

Regardless of your final choice, I wish you the very best of luck. A
"top" receiver is a tough decision to make, but, with the high quality
receivers available, and with some research (which you are doing), it
can be said that it would be near impossible to make a totally "wrong"
decision. This process is the one in which I engaged (for quite a
number of years!) and, as you know, I have been very pleased with my
choice (as, evidently, John Plimmer has been with his).

Read PASSPORT's "White Paper" carefully. It has a wealth of
information (though the comment about a "built-in" telescopic whip is
incorrect; there is no such thing. A telescopic whip can be bought
separately from Haydon Communications in the UK
http://www.haydon.info/29_shortwave_antennas.htm and the antenna
switch on the AOR AR7030 'Plus' has a position for this. Of course,
such an antenna would only be used if you were taking the receiver
away from its "home base" - for use, for example, outdoors in your
yard. (I have one of these whip antennas. I tried it once and it works
as well as to be expected. After trying it, I put it away and I have
never used it again. But it's there if necessary!)

Should you still be undecided after reading the AR7030 'Plus' "White
Paper," let me suggest again that you contact Richard Hillier at AOR-
UK either by e-mail or, better still, by telephone
011 44 1629 581222 (remembering the time difference). OBVIOUSLY,
he will not give you "unbiased" information about the ICOM IC-756 Pro
III (or the AR7030 'Plus' for that matter!) - but, by discussing your
specific needs with him, he, being extremely knowledgeable and
enthusiastic about his receiver and about shortwave listening in
general, will be able to help you greatly and then you will be in a
much better position to make a more informed final and clear choice.

I also suggest that, if you have not already done so, you go to the
AOR-UK web site and download the two instruction manuals for the
AR7030 'Plus.' You can then see how it works and a complete listing of
its specifications. The web site also shows the options available for
the radio, some of which are not available through Universal Radio,
and quite a bit of other, very useful, information (including service
bulletins and, in effect, the entire service manual) which will at
least help you in your understanding of this particular receiver.

I do not know if ICOM has similar information on its web site (or if
there is someone knowledgeable to whom you can speak), but, if there
is, I should suggest you obtain as much information about the IC-756
Pro III as you can.

As I said, in my opinion, you'll not make a "bad" choice. And again I
wish you the very best of luck in your decision. I know you are going
to have many, many enjoyable years ahead of you with either of these
receivers. And, if you can indeed afford to buy both, well, my
blessings upon you!

After all that, of course, comes the decision about the antenna(s) ...

Best,

Joe

On Nov 21, 8:04 pm, wrote:
Excellent information! This has really helped me in my decision making
process.

Right now I'm leaning towards the Icom, but I have a white paper on
the 7030+ on order from the folks who publish Passport to World Band
Radio, so I think I'll hold my final decision until I read it.

In fact, if the review in the while paper is good, I might just invoke
Jerry's Law: "If you can't decide between two choices, buy both!"

Well if you buy both one is going to gather dust in a corner, and it
wont be the
Icom IC-756 PRO III.................!!!

If you do a Google on the 756Pro3 you will find a wealth of info.
A good start is
http://www.ab4oj.com/icom/main.html
Have fun and good DX from
John Plimmer, Montagu, South Africa

On Nov 21, 1:04 pm, wrote:
Excellent information! This has really helped me in my decision making
process.

Right now I'm leaning towards the Icom, but I have a white paper on
the 7030+ on order from the folks who publish Passport to World Band
Radio, so I think I'll hold my final decision until I read it.

In fact, if the review in the while paper is good, I might just invoke
Jerry's Law: "If you can't decide between two choices, buy both!"

Holy cow...if you have that much dough to play with maybe you should
look at some military grade equipment:

http://www.drs-ss.com/products/information.php?id=39