In article ,
wrote:

In article ,
says...

SNIP
In your train analogy above, what is to keep the leading part of
the echo from being QRMed by the trailing part of the transmitted
signal?



The analogy is good in so far as it shows the timing, but I have to
admit it is poor in that I used a solid object, the train, to
represent a wave and their properties are very different. For
example, if two trains hit head on, you are going to have a mess.
That is not the case with waves. If you throw two rocks at the same
time in a pond of still water so that they land some distance apart,
the waves from each impact point move out in concentric rings. When
the rings from one impact point spread out enough to meet the
spreading rings of the second, there is however no "wreck". The
rings of waves of one appear to pass through the rings of the other
with no harm done to either wave.

I don't think that is true. I believe the waves would add, subtract or
be somewhere in between depending on their phase relationship.

What you say is true, but what I said is also true. The waves are not
"wrecked" and after the waves pass each other, they are are the same as
before they overlapped.

I found a reference on the web

(http://www.smgaels.org/physics/amsco.../chapter04.pdf)

that says it much better than I could. On page 109 the author states:


(Beginning of Quote)
"Two or more waves may pass through a medium at the same time. When this
occurs two rules apply. First, the total displacement experienced at any
point where waves meet is equal to the sum of the displacements of the
individual waves at that point. This is known as the principle of
superposition. Second, waves pass through each other, with each wave
unaffected by the passage of the others. After meeting, the individual
waves continue traveling in their original directions and with the same
characteristics as before."
(End of Quote)


SNIP

What you say is interesting, but...wave theory notwithstanding, what we
have are TWO RF signals on -essentially- the same frequency (ignoring
Doppler, libration, etc), the incident and the reflected. And I think we
both agree that the signals "overlap" for .75 seconds (as so aptly
stated in your 'train' analogy).

Actually they overlap for very close to 2 seconds. Thinking back to the
train analogy, the instant the pulse hits the moon (cow catcher on the
engine) and starts back the other way as an echo, we have an overlap.
That means 99.99% of the pulse (train), or almost 2 seconds worth, still
has to hit the surface and reflect before there is no longer an overlap.

Just like the old USSR jamming the VOA
-- two signals on the same frequency. Why wouldn't they interfere for
the .75 seconds in question?

I think they do to the extent of the "superposition" of the waves, and
if you were in a space capsule with a receiver 1000 miles from the
surface of the moon, I think you might indeed hear that interference.

Superposition is the concept. The EM waves in space do not interact. Yes
they certainly would interact in an antenna where they would create a
vector sum.

Since it is the same signal the interaction in the antenna would be to
weaken if out of phase to strengthen if in phase. It would not sound
like interference.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

On Jan 25, 9:36*pm, Telamon
wrote:
In article
,





*RHF wrote:
On Jan 25, 4:55*pm, Telamon
wrote:
In article
,

*RHF wrote:
On Jan 24, 7:08*pm, Billy Burpelson wrote:
Telamon wrote:
Do you understand the direct and moon reflected signals do not exist
at
the same time anywhere on the earth?

Do -you- understand what I wrote? Do you grasp the concept? Please pay
attention.

I -never- said the direct and reflected signals would exist at the
-same- time 'anywhere on earth'.
-
- What I -did- speculate on is that a *portion* of the echo
- (the echo's leading edge) will be QRM'd *right as it leaves
- the moon* (the first 0.75 seconds of the echo) by the
- trailing edge of the incident wave (its last 0.75 seconds).
- Therefore, either a shortened echo (due to full cancellation
- of the 'overlap', which is unlikely) or an echo with a
- distorted or weakened leading edge (more likely) will
- ultimately reach the earth, depending on how much
- out-of-phase cancellation at the moon end of the
- circuit occured.
-

BP,

What you are saying is the 'theoretical' Signal Time-Line
on the Moon 'might-be' :
[ Roughly 0.1 Second Time Increments ]
EEEEEEEEEE 1 *{ 'E' 100% Earth Pulse }
EEEEEEEEEE 2
EEEEEEEEEE 3
EEEEEEEEEE 4
EEEEEEEEEE 5
EEEEEEEEEE 6
EEEEEEEEEE 7
EEEEEEEEEE 8
EEEEEEEEEE 9
EEEEEEEEEE 10
EEEEEEEEEE 11
EEEEEEEEEE 12
eeeee l l l l l 13 *{ 'e l' Mixed Signal Conditions}
eeeee l l l l l 14
eeeee l l l l l 15
eeeee l l l l l 16
eeeee l l l l l 17
eeeee l l l l l 18
eeeee l l l l l 19
eeeee l l l l l 20
LLLLLLLLLL 21 { 'L' 100% Lunar Reflection }
LLLLLLLLLL 22
LLLLLLLLLL 23
LLLLLLLLLL 24
LLLLLLLLLL 25
LLLLLLLLLL 26
LLLLLLLLLL 27
LLLLLLLLLL 28
LLLLLLLLLL 29
LLLLLLLLLL 20
LLLLLLLLLL 21
LLLLLLLLLL 22

IWFT - The 'potential' Exists for these "Mixed Signal Conditions"
to be Observed in the Signal Received by the Earth Radio.

OK - It is 'possible' ~ RHF
*.

(OT) : HAARPing With Telamon : Do We Have Enough Bandwidth ?
The Never Ending Lunar echo, Echo. ECHO !

- For God's sake it's not possible.

OK - We have your word for that.

-ps- For God's Sake : Chill-Out Dude !
This was a Hypothetical Discussion based on the
'potential' for 'possibilities' given the condition of
'what if' where the 'if' beyond both the Scientific and
practical limits of the Experiment.
Remember - There is an 'if' in the word : "Scient-if-ic"

- Didn't you read my examples?

Yes But - Maybe I did not understand them
in the same the way that you did.

- Can't you think at all?

thinking, Thinking. THINKING ! - OK - My Trible Redundant
System Check Shows That : I Can Think !

- EM waves don't directly interact with each other anyway.

Hey Score One For You ! {In FreeSpace}

However - I Did Write :

IWFT - The 'potential' Exists for these "Mixed Signal Conditions"
to be Observed in the Signal Received by the Earth Radio.

Once Two Signals are inside a Radio/Recever "It Ain't Free Space"

- Think what would the result would be
if this luny-tunes idea were true.

A Universal Mixed Product RF/EM Environment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universe

- How about the people that designed the experiment?

Maybe 'if' you would first read and attempt to understand
-vice- Being So Judgemental : Remember I wrote in this
very thread :

Newsgroups: rec.radio.shortwave
From: RHF
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 08:03:28 -0800 (PST)
Local: Tues, Jan 22 2008 8:03 am
Subject: HAARP What Bandwidth?
(was Recording of HAARP and Moon Echo)
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.r...46e18812e433e1
*.
I 'Trust' to the Fact that the HAARP Scientists
are Equal to Rocket Scientists and that :
They Do Know What They Are Doing. ~ RHF
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_science

- Do they have a functioning brain?

IMHO - Clearly They Do.

- I would say yes!

On That We Can Agree.

- Do you?

On That We Clearly Disagree.

- I would say no and that also goes for Billy boy.

You Are Entitle To You Opinion.
EVEN WHEN YOU ARE WRONG [.]

To bad for you that you don't understand. By all means don't take my
word for it as you can go read up on the subject.

- How embarrassing.

Yes - Indeed "How Embarrassing" For You. ~ RHF

- You don't get it even after I posted about it?

Dang - Telamon - You are getting smarter with every post.

- You can go educate yourself but that takes work doesn't it?

On this we could agree.
Education = Work
Work = Acomplishment
Acomplishment = Education . . .

- So you won't do the work you will instead continue to remain
- ignorant either for the reason of ability or laziness but that's
- your problem not mine.

Yes 'my' Ignorance is 'my' Problem -and- Your Problems are
Your Problems : One of Them Being Arguing With 'me'.

- So do continue to make foolish posts.

Clearly History Repeats Itself : When We Don't Learn From It.
-ps- So Do Continue To Make Replies To Same {Foolish Posts}.

- They are very entertaining.

HEY - SEE THERE I HAVE SOME VALUE )
-and- THAT IS SOMETHING AFTER-ALL !
-
- --
- Telamon
- Ventura, California
-

~ RHF
Twain Harte, California -USA-
-and- Oakland, California -USA-

On Jan 26, 2:22*am, Kenneth Isham wrote:
Telamon wrote:
In article ,
wrote:

In article ,
says...

SNIP
In your train analogy above, what is to keep the leading part of
the echo from being QRMed by the trailing part of the transmitted
signal?

The analogy is good in so far as it shows the timing, but I have to
admit it is poor in that I used a solid object, the train, to
represent a wave and their properties are very different. For
example, if two trains hit head on, you are going to have a mess.
That is not the case with waves. If you throw two rocks at the same
time in a pond of still water so that they land some distance apart,
the waves from each impact point move out in concentric rings. *When
the rings from one impact point spread out enough to meet the
spreading rings of the second, there is however no "wreck". *The
rings of waves of one appear to pass through the rings of the other
with no harm done to either wave.
I don't think that is true. I believe the waves would add, subtract or
be somewhere in between depending on their phase relationship.
What you say is true, but what I said is also true. The waves are not
"wrecked" and after the waves pass each other, they are are the same as
before they overlapped.

I found a reference on the web *

(http://www.smgaels.org/physics/amsco.../chapter04.pdf)

that says it much better than I could. *On page 109 the author states:

(Beginning of Quote)
"Two or more waves may pass through a medium at the same time. When this
occurs two rules apply. First, the total displacement experienced at any
point where waves meet is equal to the sum of the displacements of the
individual waves at that point. This is known as the principle of
superposition. Second, waves pass through each other, with each wave
unaffected by the passage of the others. After meeting, the individual
waves continue traveling in their original directions and with the same
characteristics as before."
(End of Quote)

SNIP

What you say is interesting, but...wave theory notwithstanding, what we
have are TWO RF signals on -essentially- the same frequency (ignoring
Doppler, libration, etc), the incident and the reflected. And I think we
both agree that the signals "overlap" for .75 seconds (as so aptly
stated in your 'train' analogy).
Actually they overlap for very close to 2 seconds. *Thinking back to the
train analogy, *the instant the pulse hits the moon (cow catcher on the
engine) and starts back the other way as an echo, we have an overlap.
That means 99.99% of the pulse (train), or almost 2 seconds worth, still
has to hit the surface and reflect before there is no longer an overlap..

Just like the old USSR jamming the VOA
-- two signals on the same frequency. Why wouldn't they interfere for
the .75 seconds in question?
I think they do to the extent of the "superposition" of the waves, and
if you were in a space capsule with a receiver 1000 miles from the
surface of the moon, I think you might indeed hear that interference.

Superposition is the concept. The EM waves in space do not interact. Yes
they certainly would interact in an antenna where they would create a
vector sum.

Since it is the same signal the interaction in the antenna would be to
weaken if out of phase to strengthen if in phase. It would not sound
like interference.
-
- Telamon:
-
- I have been reading this thread and wonder how the movement
- of Earth compared to the moon would affect the signal?
- Wouldn't this also ensure the signal would never interfere
- with itself as the signal would always be different location
- on the moon due to rotational movement.
-
- Ken I.
-

KEN I. - There must be many "Major" and 'minor' Factors :

Most likely the Biggest Factor was the Separation {The Distance
Between} of the Earth Pulse Sending Site in Alaska and the Lunar
Reflection Receiving Site in New Mexico.

The HF Active Auroral Research Program (HAARP) in Alaska
http://k9zw.wordpress.com/2008/01/18...wa-eme-bounce/
and the Long Wavelength Array (LWA) in New Mexico are
planning an additional Lunar Echo Experiment for Jan 18-19.

WHY - Being in a 'place' where you could Hear
both Signals Independently :
* Earth Pulse via Skywave {One Path}
* Lunar Reflection TransSkyWave (2x Out-and-In) {Other Path}

Effectively the Great Distance from Earth-to-Moon 238,857 Miles
renders the Variation in the Altitude of the Moon's Surface : the
Ups-and-Down to be a Non-Factor.

But there is the actual Surface of the Moon itself : Size/Area;
Material Composition; Hardness; RF/EM Properties; etc
Moon Diameter : 2,160 Miles
-and- YES this could be a Factor in the Reflection of Each
Earth Pulse as a Series of Independant Events.

However - HAARP is a Very Large Array {Antenna}
* It Sends Out A Very Focused Signal from at Wide Area
* A Large Area of the Moon is Covered by this Signal
-if- Not All of the Surface
* The Moon is a Very Large Convex Surface that is being used
as a Reflector for this Signal. Given the Larger Distances that
are involved it may be considered to be a "Flat" Surface.

Doing-the-Math :
Earth-to-Moon Distance : 238,857 Miles
Lunar Orbit : 1.5 Million Miles
Moon Diameter : 2,160 Miles
Half Lunar Surface Circumferance : 3391 Miles
Therefore the Half-of-the-Surface of the Moon being used
as a Reflector is 'only' about One (1°) Degree-of-Arc with
respect to the Earth as being the center of it's Orbit.

Thus given it's relative small Half-Surface Size and Distance
from the Earth it can also be considered a "Point Source"
Target and Reflector.

TBL - To me it all boils down to :
How Good Is "The Entire Half-Surface" of the Moon as a Radio
Frequency Signal Reflector for the Frequencies being Transmitted.

Individual Pulse Time versus the Earth and Moon Movements Times :
* Individual Earth Pulse Time Two Seconds (2")
* Earth Rotation 24 Hours ~ 86,400 Seconds [1:43,200]
* Lunar Rotation 28 Days ~ 2.42 Million Seconds [1:1.21M]
Clearly the Movement of both the Earth and the Moon in
just the Two Seconds (2") of the Individual Earth Pulse is
NOT a Significant Factor.

However -IF- It were you could 'Fractionalize' the Two Seconds
(2") of an Individual Earth Pulse into 200, 2000, etc Discrete
Parts and then Evaluate each Discrete Part and Add them all
back together again to have something [some number*}.
* Most Likely the Exact Number of . . . . . . . . . .
Angels That Can Fit-On-To-The Head-of-a-Pin. )


i am all pulsed out and going lunar ~ RHF

In article 479b0a50@kcnews01, says...
Telamon wrote:
In article ,
wrote:

In article ,
says...

SNIP
In your train analogy above, what is to keep the leading part of
the echo from being QRMed by the trailing part of the transmitted
signal?


The analogy is good in so far as it shows the timing, but I have to
admit it is poor in that I used a solid object, the train, to
represent a wave and their properties are very different. For
example, if two trains hit head on, you are going to have a mess.
That is not the case with waves. If you throw two rocks at the same
time in a pond of still water so that they land some distance apart,
the waves from each impact point move out in concentric rings. When
the rings from one impact point spread out enough to meet the
spreading rings of the second, there is however no "wreck". The
rings of waves of one appear to pass through the rings of the other
with no harm done to either wave.
I don't think that is true. I believe the waves would add, subtract or
be somewhere in between depending on their phase relationship.
What you say is true, but what I said is also true. The waves are not
"wrecked" and after the waves pass each other, they are are the same as
before they overlapped.

I found a reference on the web

(http://www.smgaels.org/physics/amsco.../chapter04.pdf)

that says it much better than I could. On page 109 the author states:


(Beginning of Quote)
"Two or more waves may pass through a medium at the same time. When this
occurs two rules apply. First, the total displacement experienced at any
point where waves meet is equal to the sum of the displacements of the
individual waves at that point. This is known as the principle of
superposition. Second, waves pass through each other, with each wave
unaffected by the passage of the others. After meeting, the individual
waves continue traveling in their original directions and with the same
characteristics as before."
(End of Quote)


SNIP

What you say is interesting, but...wave theory notwithstanding, what we
have are TWO RF signals on -essentially- the same frequency (ignoring
Doppler, libration, etc), the incident and the reflected. And I think we
both agree that the signals "overlap" for .75 seconds (as so aptly
stated in your 'train' analogy).
Actually they overlap for very close to 2 seconds. Thinking back to the
train analogy, the instant the pulse hits the moon (cow catcher on the
engine) and starts back the other way as an echo, we have an overlap.
That means 99.99% of the pulse (train), or almost 2 seconds worth, still
has to hit the surface and reflect before there is no longer an overlap.

Just like the old USSR jamming the VOA
-- two signals on the same frequency. Why wouldn't they interfere for
the .75 seconds in question?
I think they do to the extent of the "superposition" of the waves, and
if you were in a space capsule with a receiver 1000 miles from the
surface of the moon, I think you might indeed hear that interference.

Superposition is the concept. The EM waves in space do not interact. Yes
they certainly would interact in an antenna where they would create a
vector sum.

Since it is the same signal the interaction in the antenna would be to
weaken if out of phase to strengthen if in phase. It would not sound
like interference.


Interesting point. It would seem that might be the case, at least in
theory. Sort of like the Young's double slit experiment with a single
monochromatic light source passing through two slits and interacting to
create bands of constructive and destructive interference. I wonder if
in practice though if Doppler and other effects might alter the
frequency enough so that it would still sound like interference at the
receiver.

That two slit experiment however would also tend to indicate that EM
waves do interact in space regardless if there is an antenna around or
not. Perhaps the antenna is only the vehicle for capturing the
interaction and not required for the actual interaction.

Or perhaps it is only a matter of semantics.

http://www.studyphysics.ca/newnotes/..._light/chp1719
_light/lesson58.htm





Telamon:

I have been reading this thread and wonder how the movement of Earth
compared to the moon would affect the signal?
Wouldn't this also ensure the signal would never interfere with itself
as the signal would always be different location on the moon due to
rotational movement.

Ken I.



I think at the HF frequencies of HAARP the beam width is much too wide
at those distances to focus on one spot. That, along with the fact the
angular movement is so small compared to the speed of the radio wave,
would seem to preclude that from happening.

We have sure batted this topic around enough :-).

In article ,
wrote:

In article 479b0a50@kcnews01, says...
Telamon wrote:
In article ,
wrote:

In article ,
says...

SNIP
In your train analogy above, what is to keep the leading part of
the echo from being QRMed by the trailing part of the transmitted
signal?


The analogy is good in so far as it shows the timing, but I have to
admit it is poor in that I used a solid object, the train, to
represent a wave and their properties are very different. For
example, if two trains hit head on, you are going to have a mess.
That is not the case with waves. If you throw two rocks at the same
time in a pond of still water so that they land some distance apart,
the waves from each impact point move out in concentric rings. When
the rings from one impact point spread out enough to meet the
spreading rings of the second, there is however no "wreck". The
rings of waves of one appear to pass through the rings of the other
with no harm done to either wave.
I don't think that is true. I believe the waves would add, subtract or
be somewhere in between depending on their phase relationship.
What you say is true, but what I said is also true. The waves are not
"wrecked" and after the waves pass each other, they are are the same as
before they overlapped.

I found a reference on the web

(http://www.smgaels.org/physics/amsco.../chapter04.pdf)

that says it much better than I could. On page 109 the author states:


(Beginning of Quote)
"Two or more waves may pass through a medium at the same time. When this
occurs two rules apply. First, the total displacement experienced at any
point where waves meet is equal to the sum of the displacements of the
individual waves at that point. This is known as the principle of
superposition. Second, waves pass through each other, with each wave
unaffected by the passage of the others. After meeting, the individual
waves continue traveling in their original directions and with the same
characteristics as before."
(End of Quote)


SNIP

What you say is interesting, but...wave theory notwithstanding, what we
have are TWO RF signals on -essentially- the same frequency (ignoring
Doppler, libration, etc), the incident and the reflected. And I think we
both agree that the signals "overlap" for .75 seconds (as so aptly
stated in your 'train' analogy).
Actually they overlap for very close to 2 seconds. Thinking back to the
train analogy, the instant the pulse hits the moon (cow catcher on the
engine) and starts back the other way as an echo, we have an overlap.
That means 99.99% of the pulse (train), or almost 2 seconds worth, still
has to hit the surface and reflect before there is no longer an overlap.

Just like the old USSR jamming the VOA
-- two signals on the same frequency. Why wouldn't they interfere for
the .75 seconds in question?
I think they do to the extent of the "superposition" of the waves, and
if you were in a space capsule with a receiver 1000 miles from the
surface of the moon, I think you might indeed hear that interference.

Superposition is the concept. The EM waves in space do not interact. Yes
they certainly would interact in an antenna where they would create a
vector sum.

Since it is the same signal the interaction in the antenna would be to
weaken if out of phase to strengthen if in phase. It would not sound
like interference.


Interesting point. It would seem that might be the case, at least in
theory. Sort of like the Young's double slit experiment with a single
monochromatic light source passing through two slits and interacting to
create bands of constructive and destructive interference. I wonder if
in practice though if Doppler and other effects might alter the
frequency enough so that it would still sound like interference at the
receiver.

That two slit experiment however would also tend to indicate that EM
waves do interact in space regardless if there is an antenna around or
not. Perhaps the antenna is only the vehicle for capturing the
interaction and not required for the actual interaction.

Or perhaps it is only a matter of semantics.

http://www.studyphysics.ca/newnotes/..._light/chp1719
_light/lesson58.htm

What is happening here is that the two waves of varying phase fall upon
a different medium like white paper that causes them to interact and
readmit a light level (an output) according to the phase result of the
two incoming wave inputs. The antenna and white paper perform the same
function allowing the EM waves of different phase to interact.




I have been reading this thread and wonder how the movement of Earth
compared to the moon would affect the signal?
Wouldn't this also ensure the signal would never interfere with itself
as the signal would always be different location on the moon due to
rotational movement.




I think at the HF frequencies of HAARP the beam width is much too wide
at those distances to focus on one spot. That, along with the fact the
angular movement is so small compared to the speed of the radio wave,
would seem to preclude that from happening.

We have sure batted this topic around enough :-).

The EM waves will not interact with each other in space. Can you imagine
the chaos that would result on earth if this were to occur with all the
different EM waves at your location nothing would be receivable. You can
see this point right? If this were not true then any medium could only
ever carry one signal at a time light or radio both being EM waves.

What happens if there is an antenna that picks up the forward and
reflected signals then defines or creates a different environment of a
specific local vector sum of the resulting fields in the elements at
that point in space. This vector sum being the interaction in the
antenna where the forward and reverse direction signals would either add
or subtract according to the phase relationship at the antenna
terminals. You would then sample the result a measurement device.

If you left the transmitter on you would create by superposition a
standing wave between the earth and moon and this could be detected with
an antenna that would pick up both as it moved along between the earth
and moon. This is no different that forward and reflected waves in any
transmission environment. Don't lose sight that the antenna has to pick
up both signals for them to mix.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

On Jan 19, 11:37*am, "Pipester" wrote:
I recorded it last night, just posted it, You need an .ogg player.
*This is was recorded on 6.7925 in CW mode
with a portable mp3 player recording it

http://www.mediafire.com/?71x4h0wbjd0

Enjoy
*Rory

Start your own online business. Sell ebooks/software. Full reprint
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Telamon wrote:
In article , Billy
Burpelson wrote:

Telamon wrote:

Do you understand the direct and moon reflected signals do not
exist at the same time anywhere on the earth?
Do -you- understand what I wrote? Do you grasp the concept? Please
pay attention.

Yes I understand what you wrote loser and I'm doing my best to
explain that your thinking is incorrect. I'm the second person tell
you this.

I -never- said the direct and reflected signals would exist at the
-same- time 'anywhere on earth'.

I didn't say you did. I was trying to give you the bigger picture.

What I -did- speculate on is that a *portion* of the echo (the
echo's leading edge) will be QRM'd *right as it leaves the moon*
(the first 0.75 seconds of the echo) by the trailing edge of the
incident wave (its last 0.75 seconds). Therefore, either a
shortened echo (due to full cancellation of the 'overlap', which is
unlikely) or an echo with a distorted or weakened leading edge
(more likely) will ultimately reach the earth, depending on how
much out-of-phase cancellation at the moon end of the circuit
occured.

OK you misunderstood what I wrote, which is these EM waves can mix as
you think in a antenna in the part of space where the wave going to
the moon exists in the same space time as the reflected signal.
Without the antenna these waves do not interact. With the antenna
they do interact. Is that redundant enough for you?

Logically, since no antennas exist in this area of space time your
idle speculation is moot. Now you have had two people explain this to
you so if this does not sink into your very dense skull give up.

Let me explain something else to you O'clueless wonder and that's if
you don't get it your problem not mine.


A basic web search on wave propagation theory says *nothing* about
needing an antenna for the signals to add or cancel. HSD gets it; RHF
gets it, but you don't seem to get it. Here are a few references that
may help you:

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interference

Theory

The principle of superposition of waves states that the resultant
displacement at a point is equal to the vector sum of the
displacements of different waves at that point. If a crest of a wave
meets a crest of another wave at the same point then the crests
interfere constructively and the resultant wave amplitude is greater.
If a crest of a wave meets a trough of another wave then they
interfere destructively, and the overall amplitude is decreased.

[please note: it just says 'if they meet'. Nothing about needing an
antenna.]

Characteristics

All waves have common behavior under a number of standard situations.
All waves can experience the following:

* Reflection - wave direction change from hitting a reflective
surface

* Interference - superposition of two waves that come into contact
with each other (collide)

[Please note it says nothing about colliding in an antenna]

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superposition_principle

First version of the superposition principle

* The phenomenon of interference between waves is based on the
superposition principle. Waves are usually described by variations in
some parameter through space and time (for example, height in a
water wave, pressure in a sound wave, or the electromagnetic field in
a light wave). The superposition principle says that the net
variation in that parameter caused by two or more waves traversing
the same space, is the sum of the variations of that parameter which
would have been produced by the individual waves separately. (For
waves described by vector fields, such as electromagnetic waves, the
sum is a vector sum.) In some cases, the summed variation has a
smaller amplitude than the component variations; this is called
destructive interference. Other times, the summed variation will have
a bigger amplitude than any of the components individually; this is
called constructive interference.

[Again, please note that -nothing- is said about requiring an antenna.]

from http://antoine.frostburg.edu/chem/se...glossary.shtml

Interference. Interfering.

Compare with constructive interference and destructive interference.
The amplitudes of waves moving into the same region of space add to
produce a single resultant wave. The resulting wave can have higher
or lower amplitude than the component waves. See constructive
interference* and destructive interference*.

[Again, please note that they refer to 'same region of space', and say
nothing of requiring an antenna]

Nothing in wave theory says an 'antenna' is required for interference to
occur.

Finally, I originated a polite, on-topic post. You responded with
vulgarity, name-calling and rudeness. Hopefully, you will eventually
awaken to the fact that your obnoxious behavior hurts no one but
yourself and serves only to illustrate your character (or lack thereof).

Telamon wrote:

What is happening here is that the two waves of varying phase fall
upon

The EM waves will not interact with each other in space. Can you
imagine the chaos that would result on earth if this were to occur
with all the different EM waves at your location nothing would be
receivable. You can see this point right?

-You- miss the point, right?

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interference

Interference is the addition (superposition) of two or more waves
that results in a new wave pattern.

As most commonly used, the term interference usually refers to the
interaction of waves which are correlated or coherent with each
other, either because they come from the same source or because they
have the same or nearly the same frequency.

Please carefully re-read the part that says: "because they have the same
or nearly the same frequency".

So, yes, that is why we experience QRM (interference) on earth: because
*some* signals are at the same or nearly the same frequency and that is
why everything else doesn't interfere with everything else -- because
they are *different* frequencies. No antenna needed!

Billy Burpelson wrote:


What I -did- speculate on is that a *portion* of the echo (the
echo's leading edge) will be QRM'd *right as it leaves the moon*
(the first 0.75 seconds of the echo) by the trailing edge of the
incident wave (its last 0.75 seconds). Therefore, either a
shortened echo (due to full cancellation of the 'overlap', which is
unlikely) or an echo with a distorted or weakened leading edge
(more likely) will ultimately reach the earth, depending on how
much out-of-phase cancellation at the moon end of the circuit
occured.



Your error is assuming that echo is modified by the incident wave. The waves
pass by each other without interacting.

When you try to observe the waves, using any method, you get the sum of the
two signals. So anywhere they 'overlap' you will see interference. This is
superposition.

If you look at a point where there is no overlap, you only see one signal.
Then you observe no interference.

Billy Burpelson wrote:


What I -did- speculate on is that a *portion* of the echo (the
echo's leading edge) will be QRM'd *right as it leaves the moon*
(the first 0.75 seconds of the echo) by the trailing edge of the
incident wave (its last 0.75 seconds). Therefore, either a
shortened echo (due to full cancellation of the 'overlap', which is
unlikely) or an echo with a distorted or weakened leading edge
(more likely) will ultimately reach the earth, depending on how
much out-of-phase cancellation at the moon end of the circuit
occured.

craigm wrote:

Your error is assuming that echo is modified by the incident wave. The waves
pass by each other without interacting.

You seem to be contradicting yourself here. Above, you say they will
"pass by each other without interacting". Below, you say "anywhere they
'overlap' you *will* see interference". [emphasis added].

When you try to observe the waves, using any method, you get the sum of the
two signals. So anywhere they 'overlap' you will see interference. This is
superposition.

I agree -- and if you read what I said above (or tried to say) was
addressing the overlap, which due to superposition, will either
constructively or destructively add; in either case, the 'overlap'
portion of the echo (leading edge) -will- be modified (or degraded or
interfered with, however you want to look at it) by the trailing edge of
the incident signal, and that portion of the echo, when received on
earth, will be perceived as such.

Aren't we really saying the same thing???