On 10/16/11 2:09 PM, Scout wrote:


"Alan Baker" wrote in message
...
In article ,
John Smith wrote:

LOL! MS for a non-techie, balanced comparison of the two! Ya gotta
love it!!

But keep in mind, if you buy a Mac you have both a solid OSX (unix)
machine as well as a great Windows box too! A twofer!

Or you can buy a bare drive PC and load whatever version of Linux
you
want and save a $1000 ...

Or, you can just grap the components, build your own for 400
bucks, or
under ... building your own, shopping sales, ebay, newegg, etc.
you can
put together a decent gaming computer for a grand!

I realize that the zealot in you will prevent you from grasping this,
but...

...most people have no interest in building their own computers.


Oh, much worse than that, they don't even wish to own a decent one, the
ones buying macs are proof enough of that ...

No.

That they are buying Macs is proof they work well for normal people.

Hmmm.... and component built systems work 4 times as well.

So what's your point?


work 4 times as well doing what? Word processing, spreadsheets and most
other office and home type programs for the average computer user, don't
benefit much from all the 'improvements' that you gamers talk about all
the time.




--
Lloyd

"Alan Baker" wrote in message
...
In article ,
John Smith wrote:

On 10/13/2011 12:05 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
In ,
John wrote:

On 10/12/2011 10:47 PM, Alan Baker wrote:
In ,
John wrote:

Hey, I am not the one into social standards!

I freely admit that a MAC can do anything a PC can do ... the
PC
can
just do it faster, cheaper and usually better ...

Really? Better in what way? Give a concrete example...


Snap in a high end NVIDIA or ATI card into our PC with a high
res HD
monitor, sit in next to a MAC ... you will see what I mean ...
do
the
same with audio ...

You mean, like this:

http://www.nvidia.com/object/product-quadro-4000-mac-us.html

And with audio, do you mean like this:

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/ProFireLightbridge.html

Or this:

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Delta1010.html

Or perhaps this:

http://www.motu.com/products/pciaudio/HD192/specs.html


No plug your SDR amateur rig into the USB port of your PC and
start
using it ... notice that there is no software available for the
MAC
...
linux is covered with an app, etc., etc., etc.

Really? No software at all, huh?

http://www.rfspace.com/RFSPACE/CuteSDR.html


You keep putting words in my mouth, seems like I said a PC can do
it
better ... that was the part you choose to dispute, not the
faster,
cheaper ... or the fact that PC stays current with uptodate
software/codecs/drivers/hardware/firmware ...

I asked how it did it better and you responded with things that
(apparently) you thought you couldn't do with a Mac.


Got a comparison to this card for the PC:

http://pressroom.nvidia.com/easyir/c...A0D622CE9F579F
09
&v
ers
ion=live&releasejsp=release_157&xhtml=true&prid=73 6275

I don't need one.


Good thing too ... as you will have to "not need a lot of things"
when
running a MAC! Superior video is just one of them ... if you play
video
games, you can forget the ones which have no MAC version ...

Regards,
JS

LOL

And now it comes out: what you want "superior video" for is...

...video games!


There are virtually NO applications which are as demanding as video
games on a home PC. Since I contract to develop software, and
compiler/linker speeds are important to me, it is worth considering
and
benchmarking ... however, what am I, one out of 10,000 who runs such a
demanding commercial app? So, of course video games become the best
universal benchmark -- any child can run them, even if the adults
can't
...

No, actually. Video games are hard on VIDEO performance, John. Almost
all of the processing load they create is handled by the GPU...

...a part which plays essentially no useful role in compiling and
linking software.


However, you are doing the best you can. At this point, your have
realized and woken up to reality, and that the MAC is vastly inferior
in
comparison to even mid range PC's ... when confronted with this
reality,
and one realizes they have taken a false position, one must switch
over
to personal attacks on their opposite in the argument ... abandoning
any
hope of proving their false positions to be correct.

The Mac is better for normal people, John. They want a machine that is
easy to use and that doesn't have problems.

Most people don't want to modify their computers with performance
add-ons any more than they want to do the analogous things to their
cars.


It will also help to lock your mind into denial, and think that no one
here will be smart enough to see what is going on, the desperation and
desperate tact's you are being forced to take, to believe they will
become obfuscated by the false complexities of your diversions ...
that
they will not notice you switching subjects, points, facts ... etc.

You mean like claiming that video card performance is important to
compiling?


But, I will ... you can make book on that.

Regards,
JS


Your post shows your total lack of knowledge that the GPU processor can
be utilized to run/assist in the running of demanding apps ... load up
seti software (POINC, actually), a freely available app which has the
capabilities and gives a good demonstration of the advantages ... you
probably aren't such a bad guy, just an ignorant one who needs some
prompting to seek a cure ..

Sorry, but you're now deflecting.

You claimed that a high-powered GPU was useful for "compiling and
linking".

Let's see a cite.

http://www.nvidia.com/object/tesla_c...solutions.html

GPU, the supercomputer of the 21st century.

http://www.popsci.com/science/articl...computer-again

"Alan Baker" wrote in message
...
In article , John Smith
wrote:

On 10/13/2011 9:45 AM, John Smith wrote:
On 10/13/2011 12:05 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
In ,
John wrote:

On 10/12/2011 10:47 PM, Alan Baker wrote:
In ,
John wrote:

Hey, I am not the one into social standards!

I freely admit that a MAC can do anything a PC can do ... the
PC can
just do it faster, cheaper and usually better ...

Really? Better in what way? Give a concrete example...


Snap in a high end NVIDIA or ATI card into our PC with a high
res HD
monitor, sit in next to a MAC ... you will see what I mean ...
do the
same with audio ...

You mean, like this:

http://www.nvidia.com/object/product-quadro-4000-mac-us.html

And with audio, do you mean like this:

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/ProFireLightbridge.html

Or this:

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Delta1010.html

Or perhaps this:

http://www.motu.com/products/pciaudio/HD192/specs.html


No plug your SDR amateur rig into the USB port of your PC and
start
using it ... notice that there is no software available for the
MAC
...
linux is covered with an app, etc., etc., etc.

Really? No software at all, huh?

http://www.rfspace.com/RFSPACE/CuteSDR.html


You keep putting words in my mouth, seems like I said a PC can do
it
better ... that was the part you choose to dispute, not the
faster,
cheaper ... or the fact that PC stays current with uptodate
software/codecs/drivers/hardware/firmware ...

I asked how it did it better and you responded with things that
(apparently) you thought you couldn't do with a Mac.


Got a comparison to this card for the PC:

http://pressroom.nvidia.com/easyir/c...=A0D622CE9F579
F09

&v
ers
ion=live&releasejsp=release_157&xhtml=true&prid=73 6275

I don't need one.


Good thing too ... as you will have to "not need a lot of things"
when
running a MAC! Superior video is just one of them ... if you play
video
games, you can forget the ones which have no MAC version ...

Regards,
JS

LOL

And now it comes out: what you want "superior video" for is...

...video games!


There are virtually NO applications which are as demanding as video
games on a home PC. Since I contract to develop software, and
compiler/linker speeds are important to me, it is worth considering
and
benchmarking ... however, what am I, one out of 10,000 who runs such
a
demanding commercial app? So, of course video games become the best
universal benchmark -- any child can run them, even if the adults
can't ...

No, actually. Video games are hard on VIDEO performance, John. Almost
all of the processing load they create is handled by the GPU...

...a part which plays essentially no useful role in compiling and
linking software.


However, you are doing the best you can. At this point, your have
realized and woken up to reality, and that the MAC is vastly inferior
in
comparison to even mid range PC's ... when confronted with this
reality,
and one realizes they have taken a false position, one must switch
over
to personal attacks on their opposite in the argument ... abandoning
any
hope of proving their false positions to be correct.

The Mac is better for normal people, John. They want a machine that is
easy to use and that doesn't have problems.

Most people don't want to modify their computers with performance
add-ons any more than they want to do the analogous things to their
cars.


It will also help to lock your mind into denial, and think that no
one
here will be smart enough to see what is going on, the desperation
and
desperate tact's you are being forced to take, to believe they will
become obfuscated by the false complexities of your diversions ...
that
they will not notice you switching subjects, points, facts ... etc.

You mean like claiming that video card performance is important to
compiling?


But, I will ... you can make book on that.

Regards,
JS


Your post shows your total lack of knowledge that the GPU processor can
be utilized to run/assist in the running of demanding apps ... load up
seti software (POINC, actually), a freely available app which has the
capabilities and gives a good demonstration of the advantages ... you
probably aren't such a bad guy, just an ignorant one who needs some
prompting to seek a cure ..

Regards,
JS


BOINC even ... list of BOINC projects he

http://boinc.berkeley.edu/projects.php

Excerpt from that:

"Note: if your computer is equipped with a Graphics Processing Unit
(GPU), you may be able to use it to compute faster. "

And not one word that says you be able to compile or link faster...

http://www.popsci.com/science/articl...computer-again

Read it and weep.

"Scout" wrote in
:



"Alan Baker" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Scout" wrote:

"Lloyd E Parsons" wrote in message
...
On 10/15/11 10:46 AM, John Smith wrote:
On 10/15/2011 8:41 AM, Lloyd E Parsons wrote:

...
I don't think you or I will live long enough to see the 'year of
the mac' if that is defined as Apple being the dominant tech
provider. Not
going to happen.

But the 'year of the Mac' has already happened in the upscale
tech market with consumers with a few bucks.



Yes, I am sure many are heroes in their own mind, have saved the
world,
dominate the markets ... and it would be evil to destroy their
fantasies
... roflol

Still, one must keep a foot in reality ...

Regards,
JS

In business, the reality is growing your sales and profits. In
that, it
has been the year of the Mac for quite awhile now. You are free
to talk
about what volumes of sales are out there in wintel/linux world,
but that
is being done at pathetic profit levels.

Overall, desktop sales on all platforms is down as more go to
laptops. Primarily because laptops now have enough performance for
almost all applications and the prices are down quite a bit. Heck
for all the bitching about Apple's prices, laptops with similar
specifications and build quality are all pretty much the same in
cost.

Apple just doesn't do cheap laptops.

Which is why Apple sells only a small fraction of the number of
laptops sold. PC dominates over Mac even in the laptop market


But Apple makes most of the profit...

:-)

Shows they overprice their goods....

Not exactly a positive thing from the view point of anyone looking at
buying their products.




But an excellent one from theirs as long as it doesn't drastically reduce
sales. With the charisma Apple seems to hold, I don't think that is much
of a problem. It is like the folks who love to own Cadillacs. It
doesn't cost much more to produce a Cadillac than it does Chevy, but
compare the price and the cachet.

--
Sleep well tonight.........RD (The Sandman)

Witnessing Republicans and Democrats bickering over
the National Debt is like watching two drunks argue
over a bar bill on the Titanic.....

"Alan Baker" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Scout" wrote:

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
On 10/13/2011 12:05 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
In ,
John wrote:

On 10/12/2011 10:40 PM, Alan Baker wrote:
In ,
. net wrote:

"Alan wrote in message
...
In ,
John wrote:

On 10/12/2011 11:37 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
In ,
John wrote:

On 10/10/2011 2:30 PM, D Peter Maus wrote:
On 10/10/11 16:27 , Alan Baker wrote:
In ,
John wrote:

Your post is an excellent example of what I have found
about
"Apple
People", they have a religious devotion to the platform
...

Your post is an excellent example of someone who believes
that
anyone
who sees value where you do not must do it out of
religious
devotion...


Personally, the only reason I use a PC, and refuse
MAC's,
is
that I
write much of the software I use ... plus, I private
contract
to
develop
software on multiple platforms (even though I am
retired,
for
the
most
part) ... while most of that could be done on a MAC, it
simply
would not
make economic sense, for me ... I mean, I am in the
business to
make
money -- NOT pay money to apple ... apple has worked
hard
in
being one
of the most proprietary corps I have ever seen, I think
they
can
do that
without me ...

In what way is the Mac more "proprietary" than Windows
from
your
perspective? The fact that they've always sold computers
with
their own
OS? You can write software for that platform just as you
can
for
Windows
or for Linux.


Windows doesn't hold patents on the hardware, to run their
software,
just for starters ... and, they don't have an iphone, or
even
an
idildo,
for that matter! ROFLOL

So?

Apple's suddenly an evil empire because they make hardware
and
Microsoft
doesn't?


Actually, you have missed the point, gotten off track, the
conversation
I seen was focused on fools and overpaying for the same bang
less
buck
will do ...

It isn't that apple is evil for taking fools money, the
fools
always end
up giving it to some one ... nor are the fools evil ... evil
just
doesn't really apply.

If fools willingly give you money, I am not aware of any
crimes
which
have been broken, nor evil criminals at fault ... I mean,
like,
DUH!

Regards,
JS

As I said:

How arrogant to assume that anyone who sees value in what you
do
not
must be a fool...


It's a cultural standard, today.




Hey, I am not the one into social standards!

I freely admit that a MAC can do anything a PC can do ... the
PC
can
just do it faster, cheaper and usually better ...

Really? Better in what way? Give a concrete example...


Snap in a high end NVIDIA or ATI card into our PC with a high res
HD
monitor, sit in next to a MAC ... you will see what I mean ... do
the
same with audio ...

You mean, like this:

http://www.nvidia.com/object/product-quadro-4000-mac-us.html

No like this.

http://www.geforce.com/Hardware/GPUs...specifications

CUDA cores 1024 vs 256 for the Mac
Memory 3Gb vs 2 Gb for the Mac
Memory Interface 768 bit vs 256 bit for the Mac
Memory Bandwidth 327.7 Gb/s vs 89.6Gb/s for the Mac


snip

Like he said, Mac can't compete.


LOL

No, Scout: Nvidia has *chosen* not to compete... ...for now.

Last quarter, Mac sales were up to 13% in the US. Think about that.


That can be easily explained for any number of reasons which DON'T
substantiate the hardware and software of MAC being "better."

I didn't present it to substantiate that.


One which jumps to mind, immediately, a number of people just as
ignorant as you have just went out and purchased new computers and
have
skewed the statistics for a short period, causing a false "blip" on
those statistics ...

LOL

Please, John: go look at the trend. The information is out there.


When I see massive changes in my family friends, the computers I
maintain
and repair, the industry I work in ... I will, I simply won't have a
choice ... at this time, it is simply a non-issue ... makes me really
question those figures ...

When you control only about 4-4.5% of the market....a 13% increase in
sales
doesn't really show up as anything significant.

I would suspect the increase is drive by I-Pad sales....not Mac. For all
we
know the sale of Macintosh computers has dropped off.

Actually, no. We know that the Mac computers sales have increased and
outgrown the rest of the personal computer market for something like 22
straight quarters.

I assume you have a mouse in your pocket?

"Howard Brazee" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:12:52 -0400, "Scout"
wrote:

Already done, and by retail motherboard sales of the top 5 makers, they
constitute about 15% of total computer sales, and by the same measure Macs
constitute some 3.7%.

Is this for 2011? For what countries? I'd like to see the source
for these numbers.

The link is in this thread, go back a day maybe 2 from this message, and you
will see where I posted the link to the data.

"Howard Brazee" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 15:44:54 -0400, "Scout"
wrote:

Sorry, they are selling more desktops because of an expanding market,
but
their share in that expanding market is decreasing.

Other arguments in this thread have been claiming a shrinking desktop
market. Which arguments are correct?

Both.

Could you explain how the market for desktop computers can be both
expanding and shrinking?

Simple, depends on how you are measuring the market. OEM laptop sales are
up, but desktop component sales are also climbing. Seems more people are
willing to build their own desktop rather than go to a vender.

So depending on how you look at the market it can be either expanding or
shrinking depending on your yardstick.

"Lloyd E Parsons" wrote in message
...
On 10/16/11 2:09 PM, Scout wrote:


"Alan Baker" wrote in message
...
In article ,
John Smith wrote:

LOL! MS for a non-techie, balanced comparison of the two! Ya gotta
love it!!

But keep in mind, if you buy a Mac you have both a solid OSX
(unix)
machine as well as a great Windows box too! A twofer!

Or you can buy a bare drive PC and load whatever version of Linux
you
want and save a $1000 ...

Or, you can just grap the components, build your own for 400
bucks, or
under ... building your own, shopping sales, ebay, newegg, etc.
you can
put together a decent gaming computer for a grand!

I realize that the zealot in you will prevent you from grasping this,
but...

...most people have no interest in building their own computers.


Oh, much worse than that, they don't even wish to own a decent one, the
ones buying macs are proof enough of that ...

No.

That they are buying Macs is proof they work well for normal people.

Hmmm.... and component built systems work 4 times as well.

So what's your point?


work 4 times as well doing what?

The number of people buying them.

In article ,
John Smith wrote:

On 10/15/2011 11:02 PM, Alan Baker wrote:
In ,
. net wrote:

"Howard wrote in message
...
On Thu, 13 Oct 2011 19:00:47 -0700, John
wrote:

Like I say, outside of academia, I just don't see that many MACs

I don't see what academia use, I don't see what most companies use.
But I do see what people have in coffee houses - and there are lots of
Macs there.

That's about where you're going to find them since 3/4 of Macs being sold
are the laptops. The Mac desktop market keeps shrinking.


No, Scout:

THE desktop market keeps shrinking.


Light duty use, traveling, you are just stuck with a laptop ...


If by "light duty use" you mean: "just about everything that the average
person wants to do with a computer".


But, try to load one up with massive storage, 32 gigs ram, excellent
video card, etc. and it sucks the battery like pouring water out of a
bucket ... some will try to go total laptop ... but if you need powerful
computing power and support hardware, forget it ... plus, no real
upgrade potential ... you have to trash it every year.

No, actually, you don't.

I'm typing this on my now nearly 4 year old MacBook Pro which does all I
want it to do.

And most people don't need "powerful computing power" [sic]. They didn't
need what passed for powerful 5 years ago and they certainly don't need
the power that a high-end desktop has.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg

In article ,
John Smith wrote:

On 10/16/2011 8:09 AM, Howard Brazee wrote:
On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 15:44:54 -0400, "Scout"
wrote:

Sorry, they are selling more desktops because of an expanding market, but
their share in that expanding market is decreasing.

Other arguments in this thread have been claiming a shrinking desktop
market. Which arguments are correct?

Both.

Could you explain how the market for desktop computers can be both
expanding and shrinking?


Most laptops cannot even handle Secondlife!

Cite...

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg