In article ,
"Scout" wrote:

"Alan Baker" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Scout" wrote:

"Lloyd E Parsons" wrote in message
...
On 10/16/11 2:09 PM, Scout wrote:


"Alan Baker" wrote in message
...
In article ,
John Smith wrote:

LOL! MS for a non-techie, balanced comparison of the two! Ya
gotta
love it!!

But keep in mind, if you buy a Mac you have both a solid OSX
(unix)
machine as well as a great Windows box too! A twofer!

Or you can buy a bare drive PC and load whatever version of
Linux
you
want and save a $1000 ...

Or, you can just grap the components, build your own for 400
bucks, or
under ... building your own, shopping sales, ebay, newegg, etc.
you can
put together a decent gaming computer for a grand!

I realize that the zealot in you will prevent you from grasping
this,
but...

...most people have no interest in building their own computers.


Oh, much worse than that, they don't even wish to own a decent one,
the
ones buying macs are proof enough of that ...

No.

That they are buying Macs is proof they work well for normal people.

Hmmm.... and component built systems work 4 times as well.

So what's your point?


work 4 times as well doing what?

The number of people buying them.


So in other words, nothing like what you said.

Certainly it does.

By your standard of people buying them......they work 4 times as well,
because 4 times as many people buy them.

Don't blame me because you don't understand your own standard.


You're making up something I never said nor implied.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg

On 10/16/2011 12:46 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
In ,
John wrote:

On 10/13/2011 3:29 PM, Howard Brazee wrote:
On Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:45:12 -0700, John
wrote:

"Note: if your computer is equipped with a Graphics Processing Unit
(GPU), you may be able to use it to compute faster. "

We may. But the application I have which is intolerably slow is
Librarian Pro. Apparently it uses the Access database engine that
has troubles with libraries as large as mine. A faster graphics card
won't make it faster.

I wonder if I have any applications that I would notice a speed
increase with a faster graphics card.


Well, first a 3.0+ ghz processor, multicore/multithreaded, 64 bit OS,
fast frontside buss, fast memory, fast storage devices/software, buffers
created for redundant search/filing, etc. features, etc. would be the
way to go ... then, with a firm base, exploit stealing GPU cycles/time
... if speed is really a valid need, water cooling and over clocking are
very useful techniques -- of the CPU, itself -- applications using
parallel processing, motherboards with multiple physical, and multiple
cored, processors, etc.

Also, the search/storage formats, methods, techniques, structure of data
handling is VERY IMPORTANT ... if speed is failing, you should attempt
to locate software which uses BINARY TREES in the handling of the data
... by asking 10 questions, you can find one unique element within a
pool of over 1,000,000 ... these are some of the most fast, effective
and efficient data processing algorithms in existence, if not THE MOST
... I am thinking, if there is a need, someone has already written it,
or is writing it ...

Wow. You've heard of binary trees...

...you MUST be a computer science expert!


It is true, the application in question cannot use these advanced
techniques, unless the application has been made capable/aware by the
software engineers maintaining the app in question. It might be
possible to locate one for the use in question, inquires of those in the
field might put you on the right track -- if available. Often, I have
been employed just to find applications/software to fit some extremely
narrow slice of use ... many make a very comfortable income doing
nothing else -- only consulting on software/hardware ... it is possible
just to "ask around" and be privy to such valuable info., worth a try ...

But then, powerful video cards are usually only found in high end game
and business/production, research machines ... slapping in a high end
video card is certainly not the first, or even middle of the line,
upgrade one would first jump to ... indeed, probably the last after
every other possible upgrade and a want/need for speed is still a
necessity ...

Or, simple said, it is well beyond the needs of most casual users (BOINC
and computer games being a notable exception) ... however, valid when
comparing/benchmarking hardware capabilities ... and, as pointed out,
there are valid and valuable uses for it.

You said it was important to you for "compiling and linking"...


You are an idiot who has no clue that you are an idiot ... this is
something I have witnesses very few times ... indeed, I now realize you
may the first real one I have seen!

Your schooling must have truly been amazing to experience ... for your
teachers! I shouldn't be surprised if the experience prompted some to
change career!

Regards,
JS

On 10/16/2011 12:45 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
In , John
wrote:

On 10/13/2011 9:45 AM, John Smith wrote:
On 10/13/2011 12:05 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
In ,
John wrote:

On 10/12/2011 10:47 PM, Alan Baker wrote:
In ,
John wrote:

Hey, I am not the one into social standards!

I freely admit that a MAC can do anything a PC can do ... the
PC can
just do it faster, cheaper and usually better ...

Really? Better in what way? Give a concrete example...


Snap in a high end NVIDIA or ATI card into our PC with a high
res HD
monitor, sit in next to a MAC ... you will see what I mean ...
do the
same with audio ...

You mean, like this:

http://www.nvidia.com/object/product-quadro-4000-mac-us.html

And with audio, do you mean like this:

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/ProFireLightbridge.html

Or this:

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Delta1010.html

Or perhaps this:

http://www.motu.com/products/pciaudio/HD192/specs.html


No plug your SDR amateur rig into the USB port of your PC and
start
using it ... notice that there is no software available for the
MAC
...
linux is covered with an app, etc., etc., etc.

Really? No software at all, huh?

http://www.rfspace.com/RFSPACE/CuteSDR.html


You keep putting words in my mouth, seems like I said a PC can do it
better ... that was the part you choose to dispute, not the faster,
cheaper ... or the fact that PC stays current with uptodate
software/codecs/drivers/hardware/firmware ...

I asked how it did it better and you responded with things that
(apparently) you thought you couldn't do with a Mac.


Got a comparison to this card for the PC:

http://pressroom.nvidia.com/easyir/c...=A0D622CE9F579
F09

&v
ers
ion=live&releasejsp=release_157&xhtml=true&prid=73 6275

I don't need one.


Good thing too ... as you will have to "not need a lot of things" when
running a MAC! Superior video is just one of them ... if you play
video
games, you can forget the ones which have no MAC version ...

Regards,
JS

LOL

And now it comes out: what you want "superior video" for is...

...video games!


There are virtually NO applications which are as demanding as video
games on a home PC. Since I contract to develop software, and
compiler/linker speeds are important to me, it is worth considering and
benchmarking ... however, what am I, one out of 10,000 who runs such a
demanding commercial app? So, of course video games become the best
universal benchmark -- any child can run them, even if the adults
can't ...

No, actually. Video games are hard on VIDEO performance, John. Almost
all of the processing load they create is handled by the GPU...

...a part which plays essentially no useful role in compiling and
linking software.


However, you are doing the best you can. At this point, your have
realized and woken up to reality, and that the MAC is vastly inferior in
comparison to even mid range PC's ... when confronted with this reality,
and one realizes they have taken a false position, one must switch over
to personal attacks on their opposite in the argument ... abandoning any
hope of proving their false positions to be correct.

The Mac is better for normal people, John. They want a machine that is
easy to use and that doesn't have problems.

Most people don't want to modify their computers with performance
add-ons any more than they want to do the analogous things to their cars.


It will also help to lock your mind into denial, and think that no one
here will be smart enough to see what is going on, the desperation and
desperate tact's you are being forced to take, to believe they will
become obfuscated by the false complexities of your diversions ... that
they will not notice you switching subjects, points, facts ... etc.

You mean like claiming that video card performance is important to
compiling?


But, I will ... you can make book on that.

Regards,
JS


Your post shows your total lack of knowledge that the GPU processor can
be utilized to run/assist in the running of demanding apps ... load up
seti software (POINC, actually), a freely available app which has the
capabilities and gives a good demonstration of the advantages ... you
probably aren't such a bad guy, just an ignorant one who needs some
prompting to seek a cure ..

Regards,
JS


BOINC even ... list of BOINC projects he

http://boinc.berkeley.edu/projects.php

Excerpt from that:

"Note: if your computer is equipped with a Graphics Processing Unit
(GPU), you may be able to use it to compute faster. "

And not one word that says you be able to compile or link faster...


Yeah, I suppose fools, such as yourself, could be confused by that ...
however, those who realize that computers do nothing but crunch numbers,
and that added speed, cycles, etc. will allow the crunching to be done
faster will have little problem ...

But, thanks for the example of how easily morons will be confused, just
in case anyone didn't understand it.

Regards,
JS

On 10/16/2011 1:52 PM, Alan Baker wrote:
In ,
. net wrote:

"Alan wrote in message
...
In , John
wrote:

On 10/13/2011 9:45 AM, John Smith wrote:
On 10/13/2011 12:05 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
In ,
John wrote:

On 10/12/2011 10:47 PM, Alan Baker wrote:
In ,
John wrote:

Hey, I am not the one into social standards!

I freely admit that a MAC can do anything a PC can do ... the
PC can
just do it faster, cheaper and usually better ...

Really? Better in what way? Give a concrete example...


Snap in a high end NVIDIA or ATI card into our PC with a high
res HD
monitor, sit in next to a MAC ... you will see what I mean ...
do the
same with audio ...

You mean, like this:

http://www.nvidia.com/object/product-quadro-4000-mac-us.html

And with audio, do you mean like this:

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/ProFireLightbridge.html

Or this:

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Delta1010.html

Or perhaps this:

http://www.motu.com/products/pciaudio/HD192/specs.html


No plug your SDR amateur rig into the USB port of your PC and
start
using it ... notice that there is no software available for the
MAC
...
linux is covered with an app, etc., etc., etc.

Really? No software at all, huh?

http://www.rfspace.com/RFSPACE/CuteSDR.html


You keep putting words in my mouth, seems like I said a PC can do
it
better ... that was the part you choose to dispute, not the
faster,
cheaper ... or the fact that PC stays current with uptodate
software/codecs/drivers/hardware/firmware ...

I asked how it did it better and you responded with things that
(apparently) you thought you couldn't do with a Mac.


Got a comparison to this card for the PC:

http://pressroom.nvidia.com/easyir/c...rid=A0D622CE9F
579
F09

&v
ers
ion=live&releasejsp=release_157&xhtml=true&prid=73 6275

I don't need one.


Good thing too ... as you will have to "not need a lot of things"
when
running a MAC! Superior video is just one of them ... if you play
video
games, you can forget the ones which have no MAC version ...

Regards,
JS

LOL

And now it comes out: what you want "superior video" for is...

...video games!


There are virtually NO applications which are as demanding as video
games on a home PC. Since I contract to develop software, and
compiler/linker speeds are important to me, it is worth considering
and
benchmarking ... however, what am I, one out of 10,000 who runs such
a
demanding commercial app? So, of course video games become the best
universal benchmark -- any child can run them, even if the adults
can't ...

No, actually. Video games are hard on VIDEO performance, John. Almost
all of the processing load they create is handled by the GPU...

...a part which plays essentially no useful role in compiling and
linking software.


However, you are doing the best you can. At this point, your have
realized and woken up to reality, and that the MAC is vastly inferior
in
comparison to even mid range PC's ... when confronted with this
reality,
and one realizes they have taken a false position, one must switch
over
to personal attacks on their opposite in the argument ... abandoning
any
hope of proving their false positions to be correct.

The Mac is better for normal people, John. They want a machine that is
easy to use and that doesn't have problems.

Most people don't want to modify their computers with performance
add-ons any more than they want to do the analogous things to their
cars.


It will also help to lock your mind into denial, and think that no
one
here will be smart enough to see what is going on, the desperation
and
desperate tact's you are being forced to take, to believe they will
become obfuscated by the false complexities of your diversions ...
that
they will not notice you switching subjects, points, facts ... etc.

You mean like claiming that video card performance is important to
compiling?


But, I will ... you can make book on that.

Regards,
JS


Your post shows your total lack of knowledge that the GPU processor can
be utilized to run/assist in the running of demanding apps ... load up
seti software (POINC, actually), a freely available app which has the
capabilities and gives a good demonstration of the advantages ... you
probably aren't such a bad guy, just an ignorant one who needs some
prompting to seek a cure ..

Regards,
JS


BOINC even ... list of BOINC projects he

http://boinc.berkeley.edu/projects.php

Excerpt from that:

"Note: if your computer is equipped with a Graphics Processing Unit
(GPU), you may be able to use it to compute faster. "

And not one word that says you be able to compile or link faster...

http://www.popsci.com/science/articl...ng-gpu-upgrade
-making-it-worlds-fastest-supercomputer-again

Read it and weep.


Which mentions compiling and linking on a personal computer, where?


Uh, what makes you think that
compiling/linking/trans-coding/crunching-byte-code/an-interpretive-language(such
as basic)/etc. would be any different than any other app ran?

You getting confusing messages from aliens? Or, just beyond your range
of cognitive abilities?

Regards,
JS

On 10/16/2011 12:44 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
In ,
John wrote:

On 10/13/2011 12:05 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
In ,
John wrote:

On 10/12/2011 10:47 PM, Alan Baker wrote:
In ,
John wrote:

Hey, I am not the one into social standards!

I freely admit that a MAC can do anything a PC can do ... the PC
can
just do it faster, cheaper and usually better ...

Really? Better in what way? Give a concrete example...


Snap in a high end NVIDIA or ATI card into our PC with a high res HD
monitor, sit in next to a MAC ... you will see what I mean ... do
the
same with audio ...

You mean, like this:

http://www.nvidia.com/object/product-quadro-4000-mac-us.html

And with audio, do you mean like this:

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/ProFireLightbridge.html

Or this:

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Delta1010.html

Or perhaps this:

http://www.motu.com/products/pciaudio/HD192/specs.html


No plug your SDR amateur rig into the USB port of your PC and start
using it ... notice that there is no software available for the MAC
...
linux is covered with an app, etc., etc., etc.

Really? No software at all, huh?

http://www.rfspace.com/RFSPACE/CuteSDR.html


You keep putting words in my mouth, seems like I said a PC can do it
better ... that was the part you choose to dispute, not the faster,
cheaper ... or the fact that PC stays current with uptodate
software/codecs/drivers/hardware/firmware ...

I asked how it did it better and you responded with things that
(apparently) you thought you couldn't do with a Mac.


Got a comparison to this card for the PC:

http://pressroom.nvidia.com/easyir/c...A0D622CE9F579F
09
&v
ers
ion=live&releasejsp=release_157&xhtml=true&prid=73 6275

I don't need one.


Good thing too ... as you will have to "not need a lot of things" when
running a MAC! Superior video is just one of them ... if you play video
games, you can forget the ones which have no MAC version ...

Regards,
JS

LOL

And now it comes out: what you want "superior video" for is...

...video games!


There are virtually NO applications which are as demanding as video
games on a home PC. Since I contract to develop software, and
compiler/linker speeds are important to me, it is worth considering and
benchmarking ... however, what am I, one out of 10,000 who runs such a
demanding commercial app? So, of course video games become the best
universal benchmark -- any child can run them, even if the adults can't
...

No, actually. Video games are hard on VIDEO performance, John. Almost
all of the processing load they create is handled by the GPU...

...a part which plays essentially no useful role in compiling and
linking software.


However, you are doing the best you can. At this point, your have
realized and woken up to reality, and that the MAC is vastly inferior in
comparison to even mid range PC's ... when confronted with this reality,
and one realizes they have taken a false position, one must switch over
to personal attacks on their opposite in the argument ... abandoning any
hope of proving their false positions to be correct.

The Mac is better for normal people, John. They want a machine that is
easy to use and that doesn't have problems.

Most people don't want to modify their computers with performance
add-ons any more than they want to do the analogous things to their cars.


It will also help to lock your mind into denial, and think that no one
here will be smart enough to see what is going on, the desperation and
desperate tact's you are being forced to take, to believe they will
become obfuscated by the false complexities of your diversions ... that
they will not notice you switching subjects, points, facts ... etc.

You mean like claiming that video card performance is important to
compiling?


But, I will ... you can make book on that.

Regards,
JS


Your post shows your total lack of knowledge that the GPU processor can
be utilized to run/assist in the running of demanding apps ... load up
seti software (POINC, actually), a freely available app which has the
capabilities and gives a good demonstration of the advantages ... you
probably aren't such a bad guy, just an ignorant one who needs some
prompting to seek a cure ..

Sorry, but you're now deflecting.

You claimed that a high-powered GPU was useful for "compiling and
linking".

Let's see a cite.


As I already stated, ANY application which is aware can utilize the CPU
and I already said I write my own apps, and for others ... I'd say you
are grasping at straws and personal attacks ... but then, you have
demonstrated nothing more ... everyone is a liar who has proven you
wrong or your disagree with ... you are a little angry ****** that is
all ****ed of he is ignorant ... too bad fool.

Regards,
JS

On 10/16/2011 1:50 PM, Alan Baker wrote:
In ,
. net wrote:

"Alan wrote in message
...
In ,
John wrote:

On 10/13/2011 12:05 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
In ,
John wrote:

On 10/12/2011 10:47 PM, Alan Baker wrote:
In ,
John wrote:

Hey, I am not the one into social standards!

I freely admit that a MAC can do anything a PC can do ... the
PC
can
just do it faster, cheaper and usually better ...

Really? Better in what way? Give a concrete example...


Snap in a high end NVIDIA or ATI card into our PC with a high
res HD
monitor, sit in next to a MAC ... you will see what I mean ...
do
the
same with audio ...

You mean, like this:

http://www.nvidia.com/object/product-quadro-4000-mac-us.html

And with audio, do you mean like this:

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/ProFireLightbridge.html

Or this:

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Delta1010.html

Or perhaps this:

http://www.motu.com/products/pciaudio/HD192/specs.html


No plug your SDR amateur rig into the USB port of your PC and
start
using it ... notice that there is no software available for the
MAC
...
linux is covered with an app, etc., etc., etc.

Really? No software at all, huh?

http://www.rfspace.com/RFSPACE/CuteSDR.html


You keep putting words in my mouth, seems like I said a PC can do
it
better ... that was the part you choose to dispute, not the
faster,
cheaper ... or the fact that PC stays current with uptodate
software/codecs/drivers/hardware/firmware ...

I asked how it did it better and you responded with things that
(apparently) you thought you couldn't do with a Mac.


Got a comparison to this card for the PC:

http://pressroom.nvidia.com/easyir/c...id=A0D622CE9F5
79F
09
&v
ers
ion=live&releasejsp=release_157&xhtml=true&prid=73 6275

I don't need one.


Good thing too ... as you will have to "not need a lot of things"
when
running a MAC! Superior video is just one of them ... if you play
video
games, you can forget the ones which have no MAC version ...

Regards,
JS

LOL

And now it comes out: what you want "superior video" for is...

...video games!


There are virtually NO applications which are as demanding as video
games on a home PC. Since I contract to develop software, and
compiler/linker speeds are important to me, it is worth considering
and
benchmarking ... however, what am I, one out of 10,000 who runs such a
demanding commercial app? So, of course video games become the best
universal benchmark -- any child can run them, even if the adults
can't
...

No, actually. Video games are hard on VIDEO performance, John. Almost
all of the processing load they create is handled by the GPU...

...a part which plays essentially no useful role in compiling and
linking software.


However, you are doing the best you can. At this point, your have
realized and woken up to reality, and that the MAC is vastly inferior
in
comparison to even mid range PC's ... when confronted with this
reality,
and one realizes they have taken a false position, one must switch
over
to personal attacks on their opposite in the argument ... abandoning
any
hope of proving their false positions to be correct.

The Mac is better for normal people, John. They want a machine that is
easy to use and that doesn't have problems.

Most people don't want to modify their computers with performance
add-ons any more than they want to do the analogous things to their
cars.


It will also help to lock your mind into denial, and think that no one
here will be smart enough to see what is going on, the desperation and
desperate tact's you are being forced to take, to believe they will
become obfuscated by the false complexities of your diversions ...
that
they will not notice you switching subjects, points, facts ... etc.

You mean like claiming that video card performance is important to
compiling?


But, I will ... you can make book on that.

Regards,
JS


Your post shows your total lack of knowledge that the GPU processor can
be utilized to run/assist in the running of demanding apps ... load up
seti software (POINC, actually), a freely available app which has the
capabilities and gives a good demonstration of the advantages ... you
probably aren't such a bad guy, just an ignorant one who needs some
prompting to seek a cure ..

Sorry, but you're now deflecting.

You claimed that a high-powered GPU was useful for "compiling and
linking".

Let's see a cite.

http://www.nvidia.com/object/tesla_c...solutions.html

Where does that mention "compiling and linking" on an individual
personal computer is sped up by a faster GPU?


GPU, the supercomputer of the 21st century.

http://www.popsci.com/science/articl...ng-gpu-upgrade
-making-it-worlds-fastest-supercomputer-again




Gesus ... you don't even have a clue how moronic that question is, do
you? ... but you ask it as if you could understand the answer, obviously
you could not ... better yet would be a real moronic question like, why
is a GPU not a CPU? ... the answer, IT IS and, like heads, two
processors are always better than one! roflol

Regards,
JS

"Alan Baker" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Scout" wrote:

"Alan Baker" wrote in message
...
In article ,
John Smith wrote:

On 10/15/2011 11:02 PM, Alan Baker wrote:
In ,
. net wrote:

"Howard wrote in message
...
On Thu, 13 Oct 2011 19:00:47 -0700, John
wrote:

Like I say, outside of academia, I just don't see that many MACs

I don't see what academia use, I don't see what most companies
use.
But I do see what people have in coffee houses - and there are
lots
of
Macs there.

That's about where you're going to find them since 3/4 of Macs
being
sold
are the laptops. The Mac desktop market keeps shrinking.


No, Scout:

THE desktop market keeps shrinking.


Light duty use, traveling, you are just stuck with a laptop ...


If by "light duty use" you mean: "just about everything that the
average
person wants to do with a computer".


But, try to load one up with massive storage, 32 gigs ram, excellent
video card, etc. and it sucks the battery like pouring water out of a
bucket ... some will try to go total laptop ... but if you need
powerful
computing power and support hardware, forget it ... plus, no real
upgrade potential ... you have to trash it every year.

No, actually, you don't.

I'm typing this on my now nearly 4 year old MacBook Pro which does all
I
want it to do.

And most people don't need "powerful computing power" [sic]. They
didn't
need what passed for powerful 5 years ago and they certainly don't need
the power that a high-end desktop has.

Yep, and for that very reason, why should they pay a lot more money for a
machine that basically does the exact same job of a much cheaper PC?

IOW, you just shot yourself in the foot.

Nope. Because it does it in a manner that is easier for ordinary people
to handle. It works *better*.

Sounds like a matter of personal opinion to me.

I mean you can make up a very decent system that will handle most people
fine for much longer than 4 years, do it for a fraction of the price of a
Mac, and will be vastly more upgradeable when they do need to make
changes.

And as long as they have you to help them out every few weeks, they'll
be fine.

Show me they are going to need help "every few weeks".

"Howard Brazee" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 22:52:27 -0400, "Scout"
wrote:

Well, let's see....they make more profit from fewer sales than
others......

Gee, sounds like overpriced products to me.

Does that same logic apply to restaurants, cars, & concert tickets?

It most certainly can.

In article , - Alan
Baker spouted !
In article ,
John Smith wrote:

[quoted text muted]
Don't have to, anyone not living under a rock knows it ... it is
self-apparent ... one would have to stick their head in a hole to miss it.

Regards,
JS

So you have nothing...


A good half of my organization use a laptop for both office and travel.

"Howard Brazee" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 23:09:38 -0400, "Scout"
wrote:

Face to face contact was good at finding out what my needs and wants
really were. Having a clone shop by mail order is as personalized
as having a big name computer by mail order.

Sorry if you found a bad supplier. Most will build systems to your exact
specifications or tell you the general tradeoffs of different options and
what you really need vs what you think you need.

Such as most people don't need a massive hard drive. Nor do you need a
massive amount of memory for most applications. Depending on what you are
doing you can also save a bunch of money on the video card. That allows
you
to put the money were it needs to go, in getting a better motherboard,
CPU,
and/or faster memory.

If you know what you want, you can buy it from the big name companies
too. The local make-it-yourself-shop's strength was in helping
people find what they wanted.

Yep, and that still takes place.