You are not too late and the Glory days are not over.Just jump in and
"RADIO"
cuhulin

On 02/03/2005 9:30 PM, Ric Trexell wrote:
[...]
Does any one think that people are going to invest in a
radio and all the learning to do what are nothing more than fancy radio
checks? If that is what the ham bands are going to be used for, then I say
turn them over to business and telephone radio freqs. Ric.

One last comment. The funny thing is that the many licensing bodies
that give access to the amateur bands have specific rules about what
kinds of conversation can take place.

Industry Canada has a requirement that amateur phone conversation (and
I'm paraphrasing now) be of a "basic and trivial non-contentious
nature." I understand that the FCC has similar wording when discussing
the form and content of U.S. amateur phone communication.

So, in reality, amateurs are supposed to fill their conversation with
radio checks and weather reports. Trivial bits of tech gossip and rig
checks are expected and encouraged, according to the test questions I've
answered.

I'm sure that this doesn't limit the actual range of subjects phone
operators (or CW, for that matter) chat about. I'm just pointing out
that the actual rules for using the public airwaves are pretty clear
what you can and cannot say.

That being said, I'm a fan of keeping a good portion of the spectrum
open and non-commercial. The airwaves (and the FCC used to be pretty
strong about this) belong to the people, for use by the people.
Industry has enough of the spectrum. Given they have the R&D resources,
they can also work on squeezing more information into a tighter
bandwidth if they really need more room.

From what I hear on VHF and UHF, industry uses radio the same way
amateurs do: 90% goofing around and rag-chewing and 10% real work. The
other day a city bus driver had to tell a number of "phone ops" drivers
to stop rag-chewing on the job!

Heck,I probally wouldn't last thirty seconds on Ham Radio.I hate being
censored.Them Hams would eat me up! :{)
cuhulin

If you don't like the conversation, you can always join
in and change it...Can't ya?
Contests only run occasionally...If thats all you hear,
you don't listen too often. The WARC bands have no contests
in general...What would tel and biz want with HF? Useless
for their purposes...Who are you to say what they use the
bands for, if you aren't even a ham? You really don't even
have a clue...Seriously...It's like a circus weight guesser
trying to tell the acrobats how and where they should do
their tricks, even though you have never done acrobatics...
Ham radio is not going anywhere, anytime soon. It does compete
with puters, internet, etc though...No biggie... I can, and do,
talk about anything I want to. Using that as an excuse, is no
excuse. Even the oft blasted code is little excuse these days,
being even the extra class only requires a measly 5 wpm. I hardly
even consider 5 wpm a usable speed as far as CW goes it's so slow
....
They will probably drop that before too long..Ham radio is what
*you* make it. If *you* ain't a ham, you can't really complain
much. Also, investing in a radio/s can be cheap, or expensive.
Both will work just fine. I'd hardly call myself loaded with cash,
and I've got three whole stations just sitting on this table I'm
at...
More radios on the floors...My first xmtr cost me nothing...Was
built with junk parts..You can get a decent HF rig for 200-300
bucks, or even less if you know where to look. I bought an older
yeasu 50w 2 meter rig for 40 bucks a while back...It's all up
to how much, or how little you wanna spend.. MK

On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:30:17 -0600, "Ric Trexell"
wrote:

I was reading a few of the posts about how there will not be a need for ham
radio in the future due to all the new ways of communicating. That has a
lot to do with it but I think the biggest problem with ham radio is the hams
themselves. CB'ers killed CB'ing with bad language and hams are doing it
with those stupid contests. I remember as a kid getting my first SW radio
and listening to hams talk about their lives and the area that they lived in
and stuff like that. Now when I turn it on I get guys talking only about
their radio or calling CQ CQ contest. Then another will come back and say
they are 5 and 9 out here in Kansas and soon the guy is calling CQ CQ
contest again. Does any one think that people are going to invest in a
radio and all the learning to do what are nothing more than fancy radio
checks? If that is what the ham bands are going to be used for, then I say
turn them over to business and telephone radio freqs. Ric.



You know, I've been licensed for a little over twenty years, not
always active. I hold an advanced class license, not extra. I just
haven't had the time or opportunity to go for the exam, and I really
can do all I want with the advanced class.

Now, this is a general reply to all the mess that's been posted here
in the last few days. The hobby will not die out, simply for the fact
that there will always be those individuals who rise to a challenge
and will study to pass an exam (whether people think it's meaningless
or not) to attain the goal that they want. In this case, the ham
ticket.

It has been my experience that people who have no hope of passing a
technical examination are the ones who bitch and moan the most about
why they shouldn't have to take such a "meaningless exam." True, in
the US we have done away with the high-speed code requirements (except
for the General RadioTelegraph License), but that is because it is a
somewhat outmoded means of communication. Even for seafarers, GMDSS
is taking over and code is used less and less. The fact that one
needs to understand the RF medium one is working in and fully
understand the technical requirements and aspects of it will never
change. Dangerous voltages and currents exist here as well as the
potential to cause harmful interference, so this will "never" be a
plug-and-play hobby. If you think that you can do it like that, you
are a danger to yourself and others and probably bordering on a public
menace.

Even SWLs who tinker with building their own equipment need to know
electronics or they have no hope of success. Although there is no
license requirements or testing for SWLs (at least no license here in
the US), most take it as a matter of personal pride to learn all they
can.

As for "meaningless college courses," well, I can think of a few:
Psych didn't aid me in my goals one bit, nor did the mechanical
engineering courses such as thermals and fluids. But I took them and
gave it every effort BECAUSE IT WAS A REQUIREMENT and I wanted my
BSEE.

So here I now sit, with a BSEE (B.Sc. EE) that has gotten me good
employment, as well as a Microsoft MCSE which has also helped and I am
also certified by the Society of Broadcast Engineers as a CBRE AM/FM.
All of this paid off, and like so many before me, I rose to the
challenge instead of whining and bitching and moaning.

As for contests and people talking about thei radios, well, if you
don't like that, then go out and find someone who wants to talk about
the things you wish to discuss. It's as simple as that! You
certainly are not going to change the meat and potatoes of the ham
community, so you will spare yourself an aneurism and have much more
success by initiating conversations with like-minded individuals who
are willing to talk about other issues. There are so many licensed
amateurs in the world that surely you will find someone who wants to
talk with you.

Just my two cents, and thanks for listening.

Al

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"Tebojockey" wrote

/snip
somewhat outmoded means of communication. Even for seafarers, GMDSS
is taking over and code is used less and less.
/snip

Somewhat outmoded? Used less and less? Here's an update:

Even at sea, where code died a slow death as far back as the 1960's (some
hangers-on who liked it persisted through the 80's) there was no need for
any radio operator to have memorized more than two letters of code after
that point. Except for an outdated concept of licensing. That is also long
gone from the maritime world, with no radio officer aboard any longer. Why?
Simple economics. In concert with great advances in safety of life at sea,
the need for either code or the radioman who knew it faded away completely a
long time ago.

I agree with you that anyone who experiments or legitimately repairs or
modifies radio transmitting equipment should be licensed, and for the good
reasons you explained. But the fact is that neither aircraft nor marine
vessels in private or commercial or military use whose lives depend on
communication, have any such requirements for the operators. It is in fact
quite "plug-n-play" and this is the major reason the MF and HF bands are
still in use at all. When that equipment is no longer competitive with
modern satellite systems, we will see it disappear entirely from commercial
use. By that time new technologies will have other uses for the spectrum,
and its hard to imagine how far some of that will go. But it is no longer
relevant to continue to drag old habits (CW) along, unless you are forming
an "old habit we do for fun" club. If Amateur Radio allows itself to be
relegated to that category, as the legal team proposing new BPL rules argued
in open court last Fall (which they won by the way, in spite of heroic
efforts by the ARRL and others), it has nobody to thank but itself.

73,
Jack Painter
Virginia Beach, Virginia

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 21:58:45 -0500, "Jack Painter"
wrote:


"Tebojockey" wrote

/snip
somewhat outmoded means of communication. Even for seafarers, GMDSS
is taking over and code is used less and less.
/snip

Somewhat outmoded? Used less and less? Here's an update:

Even at sea, where code died a slow death as far back as the 1960's (some
hangers-on who liked it persisted through the 80's) there was no need for
any radio operator to have memorized more than two letters of code after
that point. Except for an outdated concept of licensing. That is also long
gone from the maritime world, with no radio officer aboard any longer. Why?
Simple economics. In concert with great advances in safety of life at sea,
the need for either code or the radioman who knew it faded away completely a
long time ago.

I agree with you that anyone who experiments or legitimately repairs or
modifies radio transmitting equipment should be licensed, and for the good
reasons you explained. But the fact is that neither aircraft nor marine
vessels in private or commercial or military use whose lives depend on
communication, have any such requirements for the operators. It is in fact
quite "plug-n-play" and this is the major reason the MF and HF bands are
still in use at all. When that equipment is no longer competitive with
modern satellite systems, we will see it disappear entirely from commercial
use. By that time new technologies will have other uses for the spectrum,
and its hard to imagine how far some of that will go. But it is no longer
relevant to continue to drag old habits (CW) along, unless you are forming
an "old habit we do for fun" club. If Amateur Radio allows itself to be
relegated to that category, as the legal team proposing new BPL rules argued
in open court last Fall (which they won by the way, in spite of heroic
efforts by the ARRL and others), it has nobody to thank but itself.

73,
Jack Painter
Virginia Beach, Virginia

Jack,

Thanks for your input, but I beg to differ with you. A general
radiotelephone operator's license IS required to perform *any* work on
comms equipment for aircraft or marine use. Further, GMDSS repairer
or operator is required for using or repairing that equipment, as is a
second or first-class radiotelegraph license for most large vessels.
Plug-n-play aside, these licenses are still required, and anyone not
havig one and working on such equipment is liable for big trouble if
found out. Military is a different matter, as they train and certify
their own, but commercial and private aircraft and marine must still
abide by the regs (that is, if they are US licensed or serviced in a
US facility).

Code is still very useful in an emergency if all other means fail.
Indeed, this is why code became a part of ham radio. When it was
being demonstrated to one federal regulator in the early days, the
modulator section of the demonstrator's equipment failed and he
switched to Morse. The federal official was so impressed, that it
became a part of licensing regulations. Like it or not, we hams many
times find ourselves in emergency situations where we have to relay or
report message. How do you propose to do that if you have no spares
and your modulator fails?

I don't use code, but I can in an emergency. This gives me a nice
comfort zone. Some people prefer to use it exclusively. But I
suspect that it will always be a part of the license requirement.
Surely if you possess the necessary skils for electronics, you can
master 5 WPM code which is now all that is required. It's a rite of
passage to join the club.

Let us not forget that the license is a *privilege* and not a right,
and can be revoked at whim by the FCC. It's something you have to
earn, and the powers that be apparently feel that code is necessary, I
suspect, for emergency purposes.

Regards,

Al

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"Tebojockey" wrote
"Jack Painter"
wrote:


"Tebojockey" wrote

/snip
somewhat outmoded means of communication. Even for seafarers, GMDSS
is taking over and code is used less and less.
/snip

Somewhat outmoded? Used less and less? Here's an update:

Even at sea, where code died a slow death as far back as the 1960's (some
hangers-on who liked it persisted through the 80's) there was no need for
any radio operator to have memorized more than two letters of code after
that point. Except for an outdated concept of licensing. That is also
long
gone from the maritime world, with no radio officer aboard any longer.
Why?
Simple economics. In concert with great advances in safety of life at
sea,
the need for either code or the radioman who knew it faded away
completely a
long time ago.

I agree with you that anyone who experiments or legitimately repairs or
modifies radio transmitting equipment should be licensed, and for the
good
reasons you explained. But the fact is that neither aircraft nor marine
vessels in private or commercial or military use whose lives depend on
communication, have any such requirements for the operators. It is in
fact
quite "plug-n-play" and this is the major reason the MF and HF bands are
still in use at all. When that equipment is no longer competitive with
modern satellite systems, we will see it disappear entirely from
commercial
use. By that time new technologies will have other uses for the
spectrum,
and its hard to imagine how far some of that will go. But it is no longer
relevant to continue to drag old habits (CW) along, unless you are
forming
an "old habit we do for fun" club. If Amateur Radio allows itself to be
relegated to that category, as the legal team proposing new BPL rules
argued
in open court last Fall (which they won by the way, in spite of heroic
efforts by the ARRL and others), it has nobody to thank but itself.

73,
Jack Painter
Virginia Beach, Virginia

Jack,

Thanks for your input, but I beg to differ with you. A general
radiotelephone operator's license IS required to perform *any* work on
comms equipment for aircraft or marine use. Further, GMDSS repairer
or operator is required for using or repairing that equipment, as is a
second or first-class radiotelegraph license for most large vessels.
Plug-n-play aside, these licenses are still required, and anyone not
havig one and working on such equipment is liable for big trouble if
found out. Military is a different matter, as they train and certify
their own, but commercial and private aircraft and marine must still
abide by the regs (that is, if they are US licensed or serviced in a
US facility).

Code is still very useful in an emergency if all other means fail.
Indeed, this is why code became a part of ham radio. When it was
being demonstrated to one federal regulator in the early days, the
modulator section of the demonstrator's equipment failed and he
switched to Morse. The federal official was so impressed, that it
became a part of licensing regulations. Like it or not, we hams many
times find ourselves in emergency situations where we have to relay or
report message. How do you propose to do that if you have no spares
and your modulator fails?

I don't use code, but I can in an emergency. This gives me a nice
comfort zone. Some people prefer to use it exclusively. But I
suspect that it will always be a part of the license requirement.
Surely if you possess the necessary skils for electronics, you can
master 5 WPM code which is now all that is required. It's a rite of
passage to join the club.

Let us not forget that the license is a *privilege* and not a right,
and can be revoked at whim by the FCC. It's something you have to
earn, and the powers that be apparently feel that code is necessary, I
suspect, for emergency purposes.

Regards,

Al

Hello Al,

We aren't talking about the licenses required to repair radio transmitters,
and I did agree with you in that respect. But those licenses are neither
required onboard ship or aircraft nor is there a radio officer aboard who
holds them. Except in the case of compulsory GMDSS where there has to be a
GMDSS operator OR repairer on board - but he does NOT have to be the one
operating the equipment.

There is no code required to OPERATE commercial marine or aircraft radio
transmitters, it is a station license not an individual license. For an
individual who privately owns a vessel or aircraft, his restricted radio
operators license is for life and applies to any mobile maritime station
that he operates from. No code.

Redundancy in all compulsory equipped vessels allows the necessary swapping
or replacement of the active transmitters for the job. There is no repair
capability aboard maritime mobile units. Vessels at sea were the last
living reason for any existence of Morse code, and it became history a LONG
time ago. That's it, it's the end of the era and should be relegated to the
museum. There is no compelling reason for any unit to know it or use it ever
again. Hams were required to know code for absolutely ridiculous reasons
that had nothing to do with your nice but untrue anecdotal story, mate.

The early federal regulators were all members of that "club" you refer to
(originally part of the Department of War), and they imposed that
requirement on the hobby to make it difficult for the public to access
"their" airwaves. Airwaves which incidentally belong to the public and are
NOT a PRIVILEGE granted by the government. The government only has limited
powers to regulate areas which so strongly affect the whole public, that
without licensing and oversight, could aversely affect the whole public's
right to enjoyment of those (highways, airwaves, etc) mediums.

I hate to burst the bubble of those who worked hard to learn code because
they think ham radios will someday save the day for emergency
communications, but not in the United States they won't. If any of you hams
have been following what happened to the SHARES network in the last few
years, you're almost out of the picture now. Every US Government agency now
participates in SHARES, and amateur members are only allowed to have their
net control make a single check-in. Except for SHARES, the nets that these
agencies work in never permit amateurs. Reliable telephone systems, reliable
cellular networks, reliable satellite systems, and finally, reliable HF-ALE
nets operated exclusively by the government provide most of the
communications capability that US emergency planners rely on. CW is not part
of any of that network training or planning, nor was it ever for the last
several decades. I'm sure you once worked hard to learn it, and some may
still enjoy it. Fine, but let go of the thought that it could ever again
play a useful role in emergency communications. It's an argument using old
logic that simply does not apply to our present environment.

Of course if all the lights really go out, you 20+ wpm hams will be able to
have your own secret-code that nobody else will understand ;-)

73,
Jack Painter
Virginia Beach, Virginia

On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 19:28:38 -0500, "Jack Painter"
wrote:


"Tebojockey" wrote
"Jack Painter"
wrote:


"Tebojockey" wrote

/snip
somewhat outmoded means of communication. Even for seafarers, GMDSS
is taking over and code is used less and less.
/snip

Somewhat outmoded? Used less and less? Here's an update:

Even at sea, where code died a slow death as far back as the 1960's (some
hangers-on who liked it persisted through the 80's) there was no need for
any radio operator to have memorized more than two letters of code after
that point. Except for an outdated concept of licensing. That is also
long
gone from the maritime world, with no radio officer aboard any longer.
Why?
Simple economics. In concert with great advances in safety of life at
sea,
the need for either code or the radioman who knew it faded away
completely a
long time ago.

I agree with you that anyone who experiments or legitimately repairs or
modifies radio transmitting equipment should be licensed, and for the
good
reasons you explained. But the fact is that neither aircraft nor marine
vessels in private or commercial or military use whose lives depend on
communication, have any such requirements for the operators. It is in
fact
quite "plug-n-play" and this is the major reason the MF and HF bands are
still in use at all. When that equipment is no longer competitive with
modern satellite systems, we will see it disappear entirely from
commercial
use. By that time new technologies will have other uses for the
spectrum,
and its hard to imagine how far some of that will go. But it is no longer
relevant to continue to drag old habits (CW) along, unless you are
forming
an "old habit we do for fun" club. If Amateur Radio allows itself to be
relegated to that category, as the legal team proposing new BPL rules
argued
in open court last Fall (which they won by the way, in spite of heroic
efforts by the ARRL and others), it has nobody to thank but itself.

73,
Jack Painter
Virginia Beach, Virginia

Jack,

Thanks for your input, but I beg to differ with you. A general
radiotelephone operator's license IS required to perform *any* work on
comms equipment for aircraft or marine use. Further, GMDSS repairer
or operator is required for using or repairing that equipment, as is a
second or first-class radiotelegraph license for most large vessels.
Plug-n-play aside, these licenses are still required, and anyone not
havig one and working on such equipment is liable for big trouble if
found out. Military is a different matter, as they train and certify
their own, but commercial and private aircraft and marine must still
abide by the regs (that is, if they are US licensed or serviced in a
US facility).

Code is still very useful in an emergency if all other means fail.
Indeed, this is why code became a part of ham radio. When it was
being demonstrated to one federal regulator in the early days, the
modulator section of the demonstrator's equipment failed and he
switched to Morse. The federal official was so impressed, that it
became a part of licensing regulations. Like it or not, we hams many
times find ourselves in emergency situations where we have to relay or
report message. How do you propose to do that if you have no spares
and your modulator fails?

I don't use code, but I can in an emergency. This gives me a nice
comfort zone. Some people prefer to use it exclusively. But I
suspect that it will always be a part of the license requirement.
Surely if you possess the necessary skils for electronics, you can
master 5 WPM code which is now all that is required. It's a rite of
passage to join the club.

Let us not forget that the license is a *privilege* and not a right,
and can be revoked at whim by the FCC. It's something you have to
earn, and the powers that be apparently feel that code is necessary, I
suspect, for emergency purposes.

Regards,

Al

Hello Al,

We aren't talking about the licenses required to repair radio transmitters,
and I did agree with you in that respect. But those licenses are neither
required onboard ship or aircraft nor is there a radio officer aboard who
holds them. Except in the case of compulsory GMDSS where there has to be a
GMDSS operator OR repairer on board - but he does NOT have to be the one
operating the equipment.

There is no code required to OPERATE commercial marine or aircraft radio
transmitters, it is a station license not an individual license. For an
individual who privately owns a vessel or aircraft, his restricted radio
operators license is for life and applies to any mobile maritime station
that he operates from. No code.

Redundancy in all compulsory equipped vessels allows the necessary swapping
or replacement of the active transmitters for the job. There is no repair
capability aboard maritime mobile units. Vessels at sea were the last
living reason for any existence of Morse code, and it became history a LONG
time ago. That's it, it's the end of the era and should be relegated to the
museum. There is no compelling reason for any unit to know it or use it ever
again. Hams were required to know code for absolutely ridiculous reasons
that had nothing to do with your nice but untrue anecdotal story, mate.

The early federal regulators were all members of that "club" you refer to
(originally part of the Department of War), and they imposed that
requirement on the hobby to make it difficult for the public to access
"their" airwaves. Airwaves which incidentally belong to the public and are
NOT a PRIVILEGE granted by the government. The government only has limited
powers to regulate areas which so strongly affect the whole public, that
without licensing and oversight, could aversely affect the whole public's
right to enjoyment of those (highways, airwaves, etc) mediums.

I hate to burst the bubble of those who worked hard to learn code because
they think ham radios will someday save the day for emergency
communications, but not in the United States they won't. If any of you hams
have been following what happened to the SHARES network in the last few
years, you're almost out of the picture now. Every US Government agency now
participates in SHARES, and amateur members are only allowed to have their
net control make a single check-in. Except for SHARES, the nets that these
agencies work in never permit amateurs. Reliable telephone systems, reliable
cellular networks, reliable satellite systems, and finally, reliable HF-ALE
nets operated exclusively by the government provide most of the
communications capability that US emergency planners rely on. CW is not part
of any of that network training or planning, nor was it ever for the last
several decades. I'm sure you once worked hard to learn it, and some may
still enjoy it. Fine, but let go of the thought that it could ever again
play a useful role in emergency communications. It's an argument using old
logic that simply does not apply to our present environment.

Of course if all the lights really go out, you 20+ wpm hams will be able to
have your own secret-code that nobody else will understand ;-)

73,
Jack Painter
Virginia Beach, Virginia


Hey Jack,

I agree with you, but an operator may not even swap "plug-and-play"
modules, unless s/he is just flipping a switch. They may disconnect
and remove the radio and replace it, but they may not open it or
perform any mods or adjustments. That is still the exclusive domain
of the repairer, according to FCC rules. You might check some of the
US Mariner organization web sites for more info about requirements for
Radio Officers as well. They still need the second class
radiotelegraph license to be on the ships which is still 20 WPM.

As far as the code required to operate the stations, I agree with you
about aircraft, however, see the above for maritime stations. A 2nd
class radiotelegraph is still needed for the operator, despite the
station itself being licensed, at least for US flagged vessels. There
is still a very large proliferation of CW coast stations worldwide as
well, so something is still going on, right?

As far as my anecdotal story goes, that was what the ARRLs story was
way back when, when I got my license. I believe that to be more
palatable than your anectode at any rate. True or not, that's what
was in the books and that's what we all believed. The War Dept. (now
the Dept. of the Army) didn't cause cessation of ham radio until
everything hit the fan in WWII. Hams were even regarded as national
resources and helped win the war.

Unfortunately, We the People gave Big Brother the rights to our
airwaves many, many years ago. Now they are regulated by the
government and just you try to do something saying they belong to the
people. See what happens, LOL. The only time they belong to the
people is when the government is prosecuting someone in the name of
the people. It's easier to get convictions that way. LOL

I know a lot of your own personal feelings are put into your posts,
but unfortunately, what you believe, and what laws and rules actually
exist, conflict in so many areas, Jack. Code is still required for a
reason, whatever that may be, and while I agree it may not be
necessary in the vast majority of cases, there will always be that one
exception to the rule emergency-wise, that I believe completely
justifies at least keeping the 5 WPM.

73s
ASA Lives!

Al

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"Tebojockey" wrote in message
...
Jack,

Thanks for your input, but I beg to differ with you. A general
radiotelephone operator's license IS required to perform *any* work on
comms equipment for aircraft or marine use.

He wasn't talking about a repair tech, he stated "operator.


When it was
being demonstrated to one federal regulator in the early days, the
modulator section of the demonstrator's equipment failed and he
switched to Morse. The federal official was so impressed, that it
became a part of licensing regulations.

That's a new one. Just make that up?

But I
suspect that it will always be a part of the license requirement.

No it won't, wait a few years.

It's a rite of
passage to join the club.

Now it comes out. Hazing. I thought people got over that in college.