longer fatter rods, more of them, add horizontal buried radials, the
same thing you would do in any other poor grounding situation...
except in sand its much easier to bury radials and drive more rods
than if you are sitting on rock, so do more of it.



Thanks, Dave. That is probably what I may do, I don't want to be
putting in overkill for my situation ( that would be rods every 8 feet
all around the house and connected by #0 copper! ). I'm more interested
in grounding for electrical safety than lightning protection. I'll
probably just put in two or three standard 8' rods and connect them with
large copper cable. My question was aimed more at wondering how
effective for this purpose a ground rod or three would be in sand......

And thanks to those who mentioned the rebar grid... but this house is
on pillars, with rebar only in the perimeter foundation.... and well
embedded in the center of the concrete, at that, so as to preclude any
access.


Ed K7AAT

Ed_G wrote:

Thanks, Dave. That is probably what I may do, I don't want to be
putting in overkill for my situation ( that would be rods every 8 feet
all around the house and connected by #0 copper! ). I'm more interested
in grounding for electrical safety than lightning protection. I'll
probably just put in two or three standard 8' rods and connect them with
large copper cable. My question was aimed more at wondering how
effective for this purpose a ground rod or three would be in sand......

And thanks to those who mentioned the rebar grid... but this house is
on pillars, with rebar only in the perimeter foundation.... and well
embedded in the center of the concrete, at that, so as to preclude any
access.

For an electrical safety ground, you should follow the requirements of
the National Electrical Code (NEC).

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

"Roy Lewallen" wrote in message
...
Ed_G wrote:

Thanks, Dave. That is probably what I may do, I don't want to be
putting in overkill for my situation ( that would be rods every 8 feet
all around the house and connected by #0 copper! ). I'm more interested
in grounding for electrical safety than lightning protection. I'll
probably just put in two or three standard 8' rods and connect them with
large copper cable. My question was aimed more at wondering how
effective for this purpose a ground rod or three would be in sand......

And thanks to those who mentioned the rebar grid... but this house is
on pillars, with rebar only in the perimeter foundation.... and well
embedded in the center of the concrete, at that, so as to preclude any
access.

For an electrical safety ground, you should follow the requirements of the
National Electrical Code (NEC).

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

That was my thinking for electrical safety and not for RF. Local conditions
vary and change over the years.

Ask the building inspector what is required for your area. In my area it is
two 8 foot ground rods spaced so far apart. I don't deal with the codes so
can not tell the distance, but it is probably around 6 feet apart and
connected by a continious conductor back to the breaker box. I think it is
atleast # 6 copper wire for the ground.

Whatever you do , connect all the grounds around the house together,
including the antenna and cable/phone lines if you have them.

For an electrical safety ground, you should follow the requirements of
the National Electrical Code (NEC).

Roy Lewallen, W7EL


True, but rather impractical for most hams, I suspect. I would
have to run a #6 or larger cable over 100' to bond the ground rod just
outside my ham shack to the building power entry ground.

So.... would I be better off just relying on the wall outlet ground
to my equipment? I'm just looking for electrical power safety, plus a
little help in possible static dissipation.


Ed K7AAT

On 24 Feb 2008 19:57:16 GMT, "Ed_G"
wrote:

True, but rather impractical for most hams, I suspect.

Hi Ed,

The risk of life is a major issue of practicality.

I would
have to run a #6 or larger cable over 100' to bond the ground rod just
outside my ham shack to the building power entry ground.

I will take your word for it and presume that it also conforms to
code.

So.... would I be better off just relying on the wall outlet ground
to my equipment? I'm just looking for electrical power safety, plus a
little help in possible static dissipation.

OK, let's say for the sake of argument that you did NOT do the 100'
tying together of grounds. Let's further consider why there are
ground rods driven and linked in the first place = all grounds are not
all at the same potential. Hint: ground is inhabited by both
resistances and currents. Those currents through those resistances
create a potential difference. I am not speaking of "static" but
honest to goodness 60Hz power.

I can full well anticipate that you are bridging this potential with a
coaxial cable out to a remote feed point - not uncommon at all.

Let's take that to be a fact and proceed to another common action that
is frequently taken. Let's say you are having problems with noise in
your rigs, or strange modulations riding on your signal, or tuning
issues. You might reach for the antenna connector behind your tuner.
The tuner is strapped to ground, and the cable's coaxial shield
supplies this ground to that remote drive point.

As you lean over the tuner, you hold it with one hand, you grab the
coax connector shell, unscrew it and as it separates from the jack
connection the ground currents seek the path formerly through the coax
shield and instead travel through you, hand to hand - across the
heart, and you are killed.

Where do we send the flowers?

p.s. By the way, all those problems I described that caused you to
remove that connector? They come from poor grounding exactly as
described.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

"Richard Clark" wrote in message
...
On 24 Feb 2008 19:57:16 GMT, "Ed_G"
wrote:

True, but rather impractical for most hams, I suspect.

Hi Ed,

The risk of life is a major issue of practicality.
Let's take that to be a fact and proceed to another common action that
is frequently taken. Let's say you are having problems with noise in
your rigs, or strange modulations riding on your signal, or tuning
issues. You might reach for the antenna connector behind your tuner.
The tuner is strapped to ground, and the cable's coaxial shield
supplies this ground to that remote drive point.

As you lean over the tuner, you hold it with one hand, you grab the
coax connector shell, unscrew it and as it separates from the jack
connection the ground currents seek the path formerly through the coax
shield and instead travel through you, hand to hand - across the
heart, and you are killed.

Where do we send the flowers?

p.s. By the way, all those problems I described that caused you to
remove that connector? They come from poor grounding exactly as
described.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC


Something like this hapened at a repeater. The power company had lost its
neutral comming into the repeater building. The antenna was going to be
changed out and when the man on the tower unhooked the coax from the antenna
(up around 100 feet on the tower) he got a bad shock. Good thing he had on
a good full body safety harnnes.

The only ground was the tower ground as the ground wire from the meter or
fuse box had been taken off. All the power had been comming through the
coax from the repeater cabinet to ground.

Ed_G wrote:
For an electrical safety ground, you should follow the requirements of
the National Electrical Code (NEC).

Roy Lewallen, W7EL


True, but rather impractical for most hams, I suspect. I would
have to run a #6 or larger cable over 100' to bond the ground rod just
outside my ham shack to the building power entry ground.

So.... would I be better off just relying on the wall outlet ground
to my equipment? I'm just looking for electrical power safety, plus a
little help in possible static dissipation.

The whole purpose of wall outlet grounds is electrical safety. You
should hope your wall outlet ground is connected to a ground system
which conforms to the NEC. If not, you might be facing some hazards when
using electrical appliances, and might have trouble collecting insurance
money if an electrical fire ever happens. I don't see much purpose in
making another ground system if your home electrical system is properly
grounded according to code. If it isn't, you'd better spend your effort
in bringing it up to code, then using it for electrical safety.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

The whole purpose of wall outlet grounds is electrical safety. You
should hope your wall outlet ground is connected to a ground system
which conforms to the NEC. If not, you might be facing some hazards
when
using electrical appliances, and might have trouble collecting
insurance
money if an electrical fire ever happens. I don't see much purpose in
making another ground system if your home electrical system is
properly
grounded according to code. If it isn't, you'd better spend your
effort
in bringing it up to code, then using it for electrical safety.


OK. I may now consider that my electrical outlet will provide the
necessariy equipment ground.

Just to present the facts, this is a brand new home with brand new
electrical service in a nearly new neighborhood with new electrical
underground services.... so I must assume that everything was done
properly and to new to have deteriorated.

Secondly, in reference to my grounding my equipment, No, I would
not be relying on coax shields for grounding. My reference to my own
ground system outside the shack was for a DC ground for each and every
piece of my shack equipment which would be tied individually to a common
shack ground bonded by large cable to an outside ground system.

( Richard, you anticipated my ground intentions incorrectly as I
would never use a coax connection for grounding.... ) But I do
understand ground currents.... so perhaps I'd be better off just letting
the equipment ground itself through the Outlet's little bitty #12 wire
all the way back to the meter box ground.)


Ed K7AAT

On 25 Feb 2008 02:40:48 GMT, "Ed_G"
wrote:

( Richard, you anticipated my ground intentions incorrectly as I
would never use a coax connection for grounding.... ) But I do
understand ground currents.... so perhaps I'd be better off just letting
the equipment ground itself through the Outlet's little bitty #12 wire
all the way back to the meter box ground.)

Hi Ed,

I may have incorrectly anticipated, but you haven't really described
any ground out at that remote point that was tied into the safety
ground at the service entrance - unless it is in this reference to
"little bitty #12 wire."

Do you have remote power through 100' of #12? It isn't clear. If you
don't and the far end is floating perhaps you are driving a dipole,
that too isn't clear - so then, no remote ground is called for.

However, as you are 100 feet up, looking over the dunes along the
coast (I imagine) out over the sea, this is a natural site for a
vertical for DX. Ground would be called for and we return to
potential differences.

So, to reduce any future "anticipation," is the remote site bonded to
the service ground of your home?

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

So, to reduce any future "anticipation," is the remote site bonded to
the service ground of your home?



Let me rephrase my situation.

New house near completion. My shack will be at the far corner from
the power service entrance.

I was thinking of just putting a couple ground rods ( bonded together
) just outside my ham shack and letting them be my equipment chassis
ground, probably through a #6 wire from shack to ground rods. My intent
was primarily for DC safety, plus a little 'static' dissipation.

As pointed out by one of you guys, I should meet NEC code, which
would mandate my bonding this separate ground I would install with the
house service entrance ground. My problem with that is that it would
require a run of cable from the ground rods at least 100 feet to get
down and around the house to the service entrance. This is not really
practical nor desirable on my part.

While I understand the potential for ground loops, I deem it a
rather small likelyhood in relation to the static dissipation benefit
I'd get with the closer separate ground I could install. Others here
seem to disagree with me, so I closed my previous post with the comment
that perhaps I'd be better off forgetting my shack ground and just let
the equipment be grounded through the individual power cords to the
outlet ground.

Now that I may have cleared my situation up, what do you guys
think?


Ed K7AAT

PS: Richard, just missing a view of the Pacific... about a half of a
mile away ... and I may reconsider a vertical antenna instead of the
dipole I was going to use.