Michael Coslo wrote:
...still waiting for a scientific refutation of the heat retaining
effect of increasing percentages of CO2 in gaseous media......

Every time it has happened in the past, an ice age
followed. One might argue that a certain level of CO2
actually triggers an ice age.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:V...core-petit.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:I...emperature.png
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
Michael Coslo wrote:
...still waiting for a scientific refutation of the heat retaining effect
of increasing percentages of CO2 in gaseous media......

Every time it has happened in the past, an ice age
followed. One might argue that a certain level of CO2
actually triggers an ice age.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:V...core-petit.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:I...emperature.png
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

----------

Yup. Kind of hard to refute the geological data on that one.

Ed, NM2K

Ed Cregger wrote:
"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
Michael Coslo wrote:
...still waiting for a scientific refutation of the heat retaining effect
of increasing percentages of CO2 in gaseous media......
Every time it has happened in the past, an ice age
followed. One might argue that a certain level of CO2
actually triggers an ice age.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:V...core-petit.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:I...emperature.png
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

----------

Yup. Kind of hard to refute the geological data on that one.


Only it isn't the CO2 level triggering the ice age, it is one of the
effects of that warming brought about by the increased CO2.

We have to be careful of going into a pick and choose mode. It is
disingenuous at best to say that CO2 warming doesn't exist. But it
causes global cooling.


Heck if it does, that will be one whole awful lot worse than global
warming. Glaciers don't support a whole lot of life..


Now onto that data.

The present interglacial is a tad cooler than some of the others (note
they say "at this site". That is important because it's a big world.
It's been a miserable cold spring here in Pennsylvania. That doesn't
mean it's been miserable and cold everywhere else.

So here we have an apparent cycle.

Is there a reason to attach more credence to benthic foraminfera than to
CO@ heat retention? ( I believe it is fairly compelling, but I'm not
arguing against the point.

Isn't that 5 Million year plot interesting?

Which all brings up one of the most frustrating parts of the GW debate.
The uncertainty. There is so much data coming in. We humans love to look
for patterns, so we tend to find them. Some of the things in those
patterns may be involved, some may not. Certainly in that one plot, the
temperatures have had an upward trend. Coupled with all that is the
random factor. Suppose that a modern day version of the Deccan traps
occurs. At that time, our contribution to atmospheric CO2 and other
greenhouse gases will be moot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deccan_Traps

then we are really boinked.




- 73 de Mike N3LI -

Cecil Moore wrote:
Michael Coslo wrote:
...still waiting for a scientific refutation of the heat retaining
effect of increasing percentages of CO2 in gaseous media......

Every time it has happened in the past, an ice age
followed. One might argue that a certain level of CO2
actually triggers an ice age.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:V...core-petit.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:I...emperature.png


You are quite possibly correct, Cecil, Interrupting/changing the flow of
ocean currents could indeed have an effect on certain things such as the
Gulf stream. There are plausable scenarios that even in a warming
environment, interruption of the gulf stream could cause the British
Isles to become a lot colder, as much of their temperate climate depends
on that Gulf stream moderating their high latitude temps.

So in any event, hot or cold, we could ber causing the problem! ;^)


- 73 de Mike N3LI -

Michael Coslo wrote:
So in any event, hot or cold, we could be causing the problem! ;^)

Whatever it is that we are doing, the Martians are
doing the same thing. The melting of the polar
ice cap on Mars is very closely correlated to
the melting of the polar ice cap on Earth.

Seriously, one can see from the temperature graph
history that the temperature was almost 5 degrees F
hotter 130,000 and 325,000 years ago than it is today.
In fact, close examination of the temperature graph
shows that the *average* temperature peaked 8000
years ago and has been falling ever since.

Did you know that Al Gore used computer generated
graphics from "The Day After Tomorrow" for his movie?
Did he think no one would notice? Do you reckon that
is indeed an inconvenient truth?
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Indeed! And the "Hockey Stick" has been shown to be bad data, and
worse statistics. The "increasing frequency and intensity of
hurricanes" has now been disproved by none other that the sources he
quotes, as has his the claim concerning changes to the Mt. Kilimanjaro
snow pack. All in nicely refereed papers in reputable journals.

I await the release of "An Inconvenient Truth II: Oops!" Not holding
my breath, though.


--
Alan
WA4SCA

Cecil Moore wrote in news:vIFZj.5255$nW2.3466
@nlpi064.nbdc.sbc.com:

Seriously, one can see from the temperature graph
history that the temperature was almost 5 degrees F
hotter 130,000 and 325,000 years ago than it is today.
In fact, close examination of the temperature graph
shows that the *average* temperature peaked 8000
years ago and has been falling ever since.

I think you make the pattern mistake, Cecil. Does the temperature at those
times indicate the present temperature or the future temperatures?

Are there any different conditions between now and then?

How about a little thought experiment.

Assume that we build a CO2 generator
Likewise say a methane generator.

Let us flood the earth's atmosphere with as much of the two gases as earth
life will stand.

What will be the effect?

- 73 d eMike N3LI -

Mike Coslo wrote:
I think you make the pattern mistake, Cecil. Does the temperature at those
times indicate the present temperature or the future temperatures?

Without exception, every time in the past that the
CO2 levels have reached 280 ppmv, an ice age ensued.
The CO2 levels are higher than that today. It would
take a miracle to fend off the next ice age cycle.
I don't believe in miracles.

If man can indeed cause global warming, it will result
in a delay in glaciers covering most of North America
for the Nth time. That is a good thing. The scientists
who feared global cooling in the '70's were right.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Cecil Moore wrote in
:

If man can indeed cause global warming, it will result
in a delay in glaciers covering most of North America
for the Nth time. That is a good thing. The scientists
who feared global cooling in the '70's were right.

Okay, just so I'm sure, you say that the pattern always repeats? And will
always repeat?

- 73 de Mike N3LI -

Mike Coslo wrote:
Okay, just so I'm sure, you say that the pattern always repeats? And will
always repeat?

No, I'm saying the pattern has repeated itself for at
least the last million years and will most probably
repeat itself for the next million years.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com