On Jun 28, 2:38 pm, Art Unwin wrote:
On Jun 28, 9:22 am, John Smith wrote:



JIMMIE wrote:
...
The fact that its constuction secrets are not all over the internet
speaks volumes. If this were truly a decent antenna there is no way
the genie could be kept in the bottle.

Jimmie

I would have to go with you on this one.

If this design/performance was good many large companies and commercial
interests would have already picked up on it. Indeed, if this were half
of what it claimed, there would be no need to market it to individual
amateurs or use marketing tactics which smack of such secrecy, mystery
and magic--the money from larger users would just make these ideas
laughable.

It seems obvious, if it is marketed like snake-oil, if it comes in a
snake-oil-bottle, if it has the color of snake-oil and ultimately ends
tasting of snake-oil ... it is most likely snake oil--i.e., a lame duck.
(Not even to mention that a partner and I have built a couple! LOL)

However, Barnum and Bailey would be proud!

Regards,
JS

JS
I have read thru the thread and find nothing that would suggest that
the original poster
cannot do what he states he has done.
By comparing Gaussian law with Maxwell the requirement of his antenna
calls for a system in equilibrium which can be any size ,shape or
elevation. Such a design goes back more than ten years on this
newsgroup when I stated that radiation came in pulses. have described
such as an antenna as one having only distributed loads and where
external lumped loads are imposed during manufacture they must be
cancelled to maintain equilibrium. All of the masters work and
mathematics are based around the requirement of equilibrium law of
Newton i.e addition of all vectors equal zero which is the basis for
no moving charge within a conductor in equilibrium.(this is descibed
in many books or can be googled by inserting current carrying radiator
equilibrium or similar words Root LC in Maxwells equation is
strictly for distributed loads in equilibrium unless the mathematics
have changed in the last 150 yearsand does not include lumped loads as
part of the laws of other masters from whom he got the mathematics
from. If you obtained a helix antenna and lengthened the open end of
the helix by continuing the rotation to the starting point ie
cancelling the lumped loads you have such an antenna that is not
straight and is in a state of equilibrium which provides gain.
Experts, get on Eznec and prove it for yourself, don't just be a
talking head !
There are plenty of programs that can simulate such a arrangement
without difficulty to simulate a small antenna with full wave
dimensions that can provide gains described in his experiments. I have
not seen his antenna and suspect that the addition of chokes are
supplied because he has not fully cancelled lumped load and thus is
trying to prevent feed line radiation which in a lot of cases is not
considered a hindrence.
If the wire used is a wavelength long then you can't stop it radiating
with respect to its unit length if it is in equilibrium. Period. It
is easy to debunk an antenna without reason. It is a lot harder to
find error in the mathematics involved which supports such antennas
especially when it can easily be proved in practice and checked by
anybody. Make it worth my while and I will be happy to prove it
$1000dollar bvet was suggested in the past but with no takers. I only
ask for conpensation for my costs.

By the way, on my page

unwinantennas.com/

I describe how to make an antenna even smaller than that made by the
threads initial poster
I also supplied SWR measurements for frequencies between 2 and 100
Mhz. The wire I used was a random length and the results should be
duplicated with a couple of wavelengths for the lowest frequency.
Isolated spot frequencies can be attained by the use of a jumper. Such
antennas can also be made in small sheet form and other configurations
Wire used for such antennas do not have to be made of wire with
mechanical thickness since no external mechanical stresses are
involved.
Nuff said. I'm gone !

Art Unwin wrote:

...
By the way, on my page

unwinantennas.com/

I describe how to make an antenna even smaller than that made by the
threads initial poster
I also supplied SWR measurements for frequencies between 2 and 100
Mhz. The wire I used was a random length and the results should be
duplicated with a couple of wavelengths for the lowest frequency.
Isolated spot frequencies can be attained by the use of a jumper. Such
antennas can also be made in small sheet form and other configurations
Wire used for such antennas do not have to be made of wire with
mechanical thickness since no external mechanical stresses are
involved.
Nuff said. I'm gone !

My point can be summed up quickly; where is this antenna being used in
the commercial sector--it has certainly been around to have gained
interest there, if deserved.

That is all folks ...

Regards,
JS

On Jun 28, 4:01 pm, John Smith wrote:
Art Unwin wrote:
...
By the way, on my page

unwinantennas.com/

I describe how to make an antenna even smaller than that made by the
threads initial poster
I also supplied SWR measurements for frequencies between 2 and 100
Mhz. The wire I used was a random length and the results should be
duplicated with a couple of wavelengths for the lowest frequency.
Isolated spot frequencies can be attained by the use of a jumper. Such
antennas can also be made in small sheet form and other configurations
Wire used for such antennas do not have to be made of wire with
mechanical thickness since no external mechanical stresses are
involved.
Nuff said. I'm gone !

My point can be summed up quickly; where is this antenna being used in
the commercial sector--it has certainly been around to have gained
interest there, if deserved.

That is all folks ...

Regards,
JS

Because they don't know about it nor does the ARRL
Ham radio is not what it used to be. As the older ones die off the cb
talking heads have gained the majority.
That is why you get the same answers on antennas on this group as you
would get from any woman doing her shopping at the mall.
CB hams are only interested in gain or how loud their heckling voices
can be heard over the voices of others but antennas are a lot more
than that for those really interesred in a hobby rather than bar room
talk. Gates left before he graduated in college to make a lot of money
WRT did the same thing by not graduating from high school yet the
group here give his heckling space because they have nothing better to
offer. Not one person has given good reason why the quoted antenna
cannot work as stated, not one. By mathematics or actually making one
since heckling is regarded as a suitable replacement for true
knowledge now in the present hobby of ham radio. Ham radio is no
longer on the cusp of invention and the world has moved on without
them.Would you allow your children to listen to ham radio at will or
look at porn on the computer? The words and conduct now are the same
and civility has flown out of the window!

Art Unwin wrote:

Because they don't know about it nor does the ARRL
Ham radio is not what it used to be. As the older ones die off the cb
talking heads have gained the majority.
That is why you get the same answers on antennas on this group as you
would get from any woman doing her shopping at the mall.
CB hams are only interested in gain or how loud their heckling voices
can be heard over the voices of others but antennas are a lot more
than that for those really interesred in a hobby rather than bar room
talk.

The "protectionism/good-ole-boys-club/religious-devotion-to-arrl/etc. of
the old hams have lead us here to this
stale/dysfunctional/non-progressive/etc. end(s.) The "cb hams" you
refer to are, in all actuality, "appliance user hams." We now reap what
has been sown for decades. We always needed good minds, what we got
were brass pounders! :-(

Gates left before he graduated in college to make a lot of money
WRT did the same thing by not graduating from high school yet the
group here give his heckling space because they have nothing better to
offer.

College or an "education" has never given anyone what the vast majority
think it does. You are either born with the gray matter (IQ) to think
for yourself and be notable amongst the unwashed, or you are not.
Education simply gives a great mind something to do with itself.

Not one person has given good reason why the quoted antenna
cannot work as stated, not one. By mathematics or actually making one
since heckling is regarded as a suitable replacement for true
knowledge now in the present hobby of ham radio.

The proof is in the pudding, a buddy and I have built a couple of them
(he bought the stupid plans, I DIDN'T!), there are much better designs.
And, these designs have been found by industry. See what designs are
incorporated into cell phones and towers, in rfid devices, remote tire
pressure gauges on cars, wifi devices, remote controls, etc.

Ham radio is no
longer on the cusp of invention and the world has moved on without
them.Would you allow your children to listen to ham radio at will or
look at porn on the computer? The words and conduct now are the same
and civility has flown out of the window!

This is a sign of the times--gays marrying, breakup of the family,
foster homes, inferior schools, corrupt politicians, etc. The true
cause(s) of the problem(s) you state are too numerous to mention.
Non-civil hams are only a symptom, not the disease ... and the diseases
too numerous to mention themselves ...

Regards,
JS

On Jun 28, 6:49 pm, John Smith wrote:
Art Unwin wrote:
Because they don't know about it nor does the ARRL
Ham radio is not what it used to be. As the older ones die off the cb
talking heads have gained the majority.
That is why you get the same answers on antennas on this group as you
would get from any woman doing her shopping at the mall.
CB hams are only interested in gain or how loud their heckling voices
can be heard over the voices of others but antennas are a lot more
than that for those really interesred in a hobby rather than bar room
talk.

The "protectionism/good-ole-boys-club/religious-devotion-to-arrl/etc. of
the old hams have lead us here to this
stale/dysfunctional/non-progressive/etc. end(s.) The "cb hams" you
refer to are, in all actuality, "appliance user hams." We now reap what
has been sown for decades. We always needed good minds, what we got
were brass pounders! :-(

Gates left before he graduated in college to make a lot of money
WRT did the same thing by not graduating from high school yet the
group here give his heckling space because they have nothing better to
offer.

College or an "education" has never given anyone what the vast majority
think it does. You are either born with the gray matter (IQ) to think
for yourself and be notable amongst the unwashed, or you are not.
Education simply gives a great mind something to do with itself.

Not one person has given good reason why the quoted antenna
cannot work as stated, not one. By mathematics or actually making one
since heckling is regarded as a suitable replacement for true
knowledge now in the present hobby of ham radio.

The proof is in the pudding, a buddy and I have built a couple of them
(he bought the stupid plans, I DIDN'T!), there are much better designs.
And, these designs have been found by industry. See what designs are
incorporated into cell phones and towers, in rfid devices, remote tire
pressure gauges on cars, wifi devices, remote controls, etc.

Ham radio is no
longer on the cusp of invention and the world has moved on without
them.Would you allow your children to listen to ham radio at will or
look at porn on the computer? The words and conduct now are the same
and civility has flown out of the window!

This is a sign of the times--gays marrying, breakup of the family,
foster homes, inferior schools, corrupt politicians, etc. The true
cause(s) of the problem(s) you state are too numerous to mention.
Non-civil hams are only a symptom, not the disease ... and the diseases
too numerous to mention themselves ...

Regards,
JS

John you have it down pat! The bands will be taken over by industry or
the military.
There is no way hams will be allowed to keep the bands after it is
seen what they have done to the
hobby. If you have to prevent your children from listening eventually
it will be taken away just like smoking
in the presence of others
Hams will still be able to use their radio but they wont be allowed to
transmit where it affects others.
Just like singing in the shower It just stays in the hamshack
Art
unwinantennas.com/
where they can practice their free speech rights without offending
others.

Art Unwin wrote:

John you have it down pat! The bands will be taken over by industry or
the military.
There is no way hams will be allowed to keep the bands after it is
seen what they have done to the
hobby. If you have to prevent your children from listening eventually
it will be taken away just like smoking
in the presence of others
Hams will still be able to use their radio but they wont be allowed to
transmit where it affects others.
Just like singing in the shower It just stays in the hamshack
Art
unwinantennas.com/
where they can practice their free speech rights without offending
others.

Actually, I still hold hope that something can be done or will happen to
halt these trends ... but the future scares me--just call me paranoid ...

Regards,
JS

On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 14:34:31 -0700 (PDT), Art Unwin
wrote:
Not one person has given good reason why the quoted antenna
cannot work as stated, not one. By mathematics or actually making one
since heckling is regarded as a suitable replacement for true
knowledge now in the present hobby of ham radio.

First of all Felix has placed his project into such a 'top secret'
status that even the contract to which one agrees is secret until
after it is agreed to. When I told Felix I might buy his plans (IIRC
they were only $35.00 at the time) but, I would need to first see the
agreement, he cut off communications with me.

I'll ask Felix again, what are the terms of agreement, or why are they
secret until we paid for the plans?

Because of his secrecy of his agreement, I can only speculate that he
is looking for marks, suckers, or fools to buy his antenna plans.
Only a fool would sign a check and turn it over to a stranger to fill
in as he desires.

Personally, I would love for Felix's antenna design to perform
according to his claims. I would be proud to have his ugly pole on
top of my car as I drive down the road working DX if it works as
claimed. ("ugly pole" is not meant to be derogatory, see my car to
understand.)

And Art, the fact is that only Felix has the obligation of proof. As
I see it, this is the issue:
Felix has made certain claims to a product which he is selling. The
evidence he is using to back up his claims doesn't hold up to the
standards set to establish such claims. He may have tried, as in he
tested his antenna against a loop, but there were discrepancies in his
test that would skew the results.

I think everyone knows that at one time, according to the laws of
aerodynamics, a bumble bee could not fly. The laws have been changed
so the Bumble-bee can now fly. Currently, I believe the general rules
of antenna theory say that a properly made 1/4 wave ground plane will
outperform a ground plane less than 1/10th wavelength in size. (I am
sure some of the EEs here can prove this mathematically or offer some
specific scientific law, but I am not trying to go there.) Felix
claims to have an antenna that can defy this rule, therefore, the
burden of proof lies on him, not the EEs in the group.

I will not say that there is not a design that can break the general
rule I stated above, but the evidence Felix is offering is sketchy at
best.





--
73 for now
Buck, N4PGW

www.lumpuckeroo.com

"Small - broadband - efficient: pick any two."

On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 12:49:18 -0700 (PDT), Art Unwin
wrote:


By the way, on my page

unwinantennas.com/

I describe how to make an antenna even smaller than that made by the
threads initial poster

No such description is to be found on your page,
just utter nonsense.


I also supplied SWR measurements for frequencies between 2 and 100

No, you did not provide measurements, you just depict a few graphs
which you faked.

Mhz. The wire I used was a random length and the results should be
duplicated with a couple of wavelengths for the lowest frequency.
Isolated spot frequencies can be attained by the use of a jumper. Such
antennas can also be made in small sheet form and other configurations

Show one (1) single working prototype.



Wire used for such antennas do not have to be made of wire

Interesting statement.
aahahahaaaa....

with
mechanical thickness since no external mechanical stresses are
involved.

Yes, sure.


Nuff said. I'm gone !
If you only were.
Go to hell.

w.

First of all Felix has placed his project into such a 'top secret'
status that even the contract to which one agrees is secret until
after it is agreed to.

I think it's very questionable whether any such "secret contract"
would be enforceable, at least here in the U.S.

One of the crucial elements in a contract is the "meeting of the
minds". That is, the parties who are taking part in the contract must
be in agreement as to what it is that is being agreed to.

Terms which are kept secret from one party to the contract until after
the contract was signed would almost certainly be held to be invalid
and unenforceable.

Felix *could* have a legal and binding contract with buyers of his
antenna which has strict terms that require nondisclosure, forbid
reverse engineering, or insist that buyers do The Dance in public on
alternate Thursdays. However, in order to be enforceable, all of the
terms have to be presented to the buyer *before* the contract is
agreed to.



--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

On Jun 29, 11:47 am, (Dave Platt) wrote:
First of all Felix has placed his project into such a 'top secret'
status that even the contract to which one agrees is secret until
after it is agreed to.

I think it's very questionable whether any such "secret contract"
would be enforceable, at least here in the U.S.

One of the crucial elements in a contract is the "meeting of the
minds". That is, the parties who are taking part in the contract must
be in agreement as to what it is that is being agreed to.

Terms which are kept secret from one party to the contract until after
the contract was signed would almost certainly be held to be invalid
and unenforceable.

Felix *could* have a legal and binding contract with buyers of his
antenna which has strict terms that require nondisclosure, forbid
reverse engineering, or insist that buyers do The Dance in public on
alternate Thursdays. However, in order to be enforceable, all of the
terms have to be presented to the buyer *before* the contract is
agreed to.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

I totally agree.He really should supply a graph of frequency versus
SWR then buyers would know what they are getting.
Hams are not interested in how it works on ly the extent of
frequencies and the external size of the antenna
Isn't this what Rhode Island did. Now if the wire is one wavelength
such that radiation cannot occur from the feed line that would be a
welcome addition.Albiet a balanced to unbanced windings would be handy
for when coax is used.
Either way the antenna seems awefull long compared to what it could
be.
Art