"Tam/WB2TT" wrote in message
...
I was wanting to use the marine battery I have but someone else posted
a negative experience with the fumes ruining part of their house and
their own health. It scared me a little.

I have a marine battery charged by an Astron RS-20M and a 75w solar panel.
I monitor the battery voltage and shut off the charging system when the
battery
is charged. That decreases the possibility of battery failure.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp




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For the record, my batteries are actually sealed lead-acid Hawker
Energy (Gates) Cyclon BC Cell (25 AH) and not cheap - but then they
are rock solid.

Same ones I use!
Floated across a switchmode 15A charger set to 13.8V.
Been in service for 6 or 7 years with no trouble.

I added an "aw ****" fuse at 60A between the middle terminals at the 6V
point, and it has a couple of hefty outputs ending in powerpoles.

Is it bad to leave a charger hooked up to the battery permanently. Mine
is a 12/2 with automatic operation.

Only if the charger isn't set properly.

What we're doing is called "float" service, where the charger voltage is set
lower than it would be for normal "recharge a dead battery" sorts of
applications. You have to check your particular battery's spec, but most
sit around 13.8-ish instead of the normal charger output of about 14.4.

I don't know what other's opinions will be regarding this, BUT - mine is
NO. I know a guy who fried a H.F. radio twice by doing that. Maybe he
didn't have it connected altogether properly, but the charger fried his
radio twice and it cost him a few bucks to get it fixed both times. The
first time, he didn't say what caused the failure. The second time, he
figured out it had to be the charger. Since he quit using the charger at
the same time - once the set was repaired - again, the set has worked
fine. And yes, he still uses the battery and a charger. He just
disconnects the charger before using - now.

Well, there's all sorts of junk out there called "chargers", and most are
not designed to be on the battery continuously, and some don't have any
output voltage regulation at all. Wouldn't surprise me at all, if he
connected the radio to the "charger" without a battery in place, and got
18-25V or so applied to the radio.

For this sort of service, you want a unit with regulated output voltage, and
a trim adjustment.
I use switchmode because it's way more efficient, and therefore runs with no
observable heat.
There is no noise or hum into the radio, even when it's putting full output
into the battery.

My Samlex charger works nicely, and will deliver 13.8V to an open circuit,
or a 1 ohm load.

"Dave VanHorn" wrote in message
...
I don't know what other's opinions will be regarding this, BUT - mine is
NO. I know a guy who fried a H.F. radio twice by doing that. Maybe he
didn't have it connected altogether properly, but the charger fried his
radio twice and it cost him a few bucks to get it fixed both times. The
first time, he didn't say what caused the failure. The second time, he
figured out it had to be the charger. Since he quit using the charger at
the same time - once the set was repaired - again, the set has worked
fine. And yes, he still uses the battery and a charger. He just
disconnects the charger before using - now.

Well, there's all sorts of junk out there called "chargers", and most are
not designed to be on the battery continuously, and some don't have any
output voltage regulation at all. Wouldn't surprise me at all, if he
connected the radio to the "charger" without a battery in place, and got
18-25V or so applied to the radio.

For this sort of service, you want a unit with regulated output voltage,
and a trim adjustment.
I use switchmode because it's way more efficient, and therefore runs with
no observable heat.
There is no noise or hum into the radio, even when it's putting full
output into the battery.

My Samlex charger works nicely, and will deliver 13.8V to an open circuit,
or a 1 ohm load.



I didn't see the actual charger the guy used, but when the rig fried the 2nd
time and he fessed up with his hook up, then I questioned the voltage. He
didn't fess up the first time as he felt it was hooked up ok and there was
nothing to have caused it aside from a "radio" failure. In his mind, it was
a "12 volt charger" - it should have worked - must have been the radio." And
all he said was - it was hooked up to a battery. Saying nothing of the
charger since he felt it wasn't at fault. His charger was putting out close
to 18 VDC - when I asked him to check it - via phone. So, I told him, there
is your culprit. As to how well it was "supposed" to be regulated, I don't
know - but, he learned a lesson that time - an expensive lesson. "I"
realize - all power supplies and chargers aren't created equal - he didn't -
he was just getting into Ham when that happened. He seen a diagram I guess,
but it said nothing of voltages or other hazards to avoid. So, he followed
it and whalah - snap, crackle, pop. At the moment, it did seem it could have
been a "radio" failure meaning a part "could" have went bad from age/use -
possible former abuse - the set was used when he bought it. AND according to
him, it didn't blow right away, which sort of masked the fault - aside from
the concealing the charger. When it went south the 2nd time almost
immediately, then there "had" to be a reason to have caused it. Once the
culprit was found, the radio repaired - again, he's had good use of it
since.

L.

His charger was putting out close
to 18 VDC - when I asked him to check it - via phone. So, I told him,
there is your culprit.

That's what I suspected, unregulated output, without the battery in the loop
to absorb the energy.

This comes from using a "charger" as a regulated power supply.
Note that a regulated power supply makes a much better charger, than even a
"charger".

On 26 Jan 2005 05:32:13 -0800, wrote:

Is it bad to leave a charger hooked up to the battery permanently. Mine
is a 12/2 with automatic operation.

Hi Don,

Well then, I must presume it is the inferior product to blame (or
perhaps inferior advice). Take note that Dave has an identical
installation and we both suffer no problems whatever and this is for
YEARS of sustained service.

Hawker guarantees my cells for 15 Years of life and fully recommends a
continuous float charge. There are probably 100 Million batteries in
hospital corridors, schools, churches, theaters, public service
buildings all sitting there on a float charge waiting to turn on the
emergency lighting. In fact my current limiting of the quick charge
is overly conservative as Hawker explicitly offers there is no
restriction to inrush current from professional grade chargers.

Lou's report of his buddy's charger running at 18 V is nothing short
of a death wish with a meter indicator. If you read the precautions
printed on that charger's box, it also says it is dangerous to charge
an automotive battery with it while the battery is still connected to
the automotive electronics.

If you choose to employ cycle charging (where you disconnect the
charger and run the battery down), then you need to run at a higher
charge voltage which is typical of most chargers off the shelf for
automotive work where you are doing a battery overnight. The higher
voltage is NOT GOOD for floating - unless you have deep pockets for
battery replacement. In the case of automotive batteries, their ONLY
use is to start the engine. After that, they are little more than a
chemical capacitor for the alternator's supply to the automotive
electrical system. In the old days, better cars had a dash mounted
Ammeter. The plus indication showed a slight positive indication for
the alternator load (charge and ignition in the days before megawatt
stereo systems); or a negative indication when you were running on
battery alone (and your -well in this case, and age- generator was
shot).

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Stryped wrote:
"The radio says 13.8 v dc but if I get a 12 volt power supply will it
put out the same voltage at the radio:"

No. All supply cables have an IR drop.

Automobiles supply a d-c voltage to charge the battery which cranks the
engine and supplies the accessories when the engine is off.

SETTING THE VOLTAGE REGULATOR IS A PROBLEM. iT MUST BE SET HIGH ENOUGH
TO TOP OFF THE BATTERY AND LOW ENOUGH NOT TO BOIL THE BATTERY WATER AWAY
(OUTGASING).

To complicate matters, at least four different automobile battery
constructions are used. All have different ideal charging voltages at
the same temperature and for the same use.

Battery and charging system manufacturers disagree with each other and
even with themselves.

In the 1970`s , the low-maintenance calcium-lead battery appeared. It
was designed to avoid outgasing and water addition to the battery. The
original battery had had antimony added to its lead plates to strengthen
them for mobilr bumps and shakes.The lead-calcium battery had calcium
replacing the antimony. Battery manufacturers then had a new idea. They
used antimony in the positive lead plate and calcium in the negative
lead plate. They called this the "hybrid battery"

Some car makers then decided to adapt the "gel-cell" to autos. This
should take no water but woiuld not like being overcharged.

I`ve had satisfactory experience with calcium-lead batteries. In several
crosscountry microwave systems these were used to float on the d-c power
supply. The voltage of the supply was set by experiment to a voltage
which would top off the batteries so that they could run the equipment
for several hours when the powerline failed but not gass so much that
they frequently required water. The batteries had very long useful lives
and cost much less than nicads. The cells had no memory problems or
polarity reversals as the nicads sometimes did.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI
..

More batteries have probably been destroyed by improper charging
than any other single cause.

Could be, but these cheap Chinese batteies are gaining ground every day.
http://www.dvanhorn.org/NIMH/Index.php is some work that I've done on the
subject. I have another, more spectacular failure to post when I get time to
write it up properly.

This second one, and I suspect also the one shown on my page now, are NOT
the result of bad charging, but bad cells.


I gather that you know all this stuff so my ranting is really for
the benefit of others who don't.

Well worth saying though!

Do you have any non-marketing info on the "Optima" batteries?
I'm looking to enhance my capacity here, one way or another.

"Jim Higgins" wrote

I notice an earlier "expert" recommended against charging sealed
cells indoors. Hogwash! That's exactly one of the reasons
sealed cells like the Cyclons were developed. The other was to
eliminate the high labor expense - not to mention hassle - of
frequent checks and water additions.

I never said I was an "expert", I only described my own safe use of a 12v
deep cell marine battery indoors. But I notice your setup:

I'm sitting here looking at my own setup
using a standard auto starting battery - cheap non-sealed Walmart
special

- Does NOT include a sealed battery, many of which are just cheap junk that
could easily blow up with too much charge, and giving general advice to
someone not knowledgeable about batteries, would be don't charge them
indoors. That stands as good advice until you can demonstrate otherwise, and
accept the responsibility for accidents resulting from misuse of batteries
or charging equipment.

Jack Painter
Virginia Beach, Virginia