On Tue, 3 May 2005 17:18:33 -0700, "John Smith"
wrote:

OK, one... more.... time!!! there is no time yanno!
Please someone, see if you can view the page he
http://blake.prohosting.com/mailguy2/JS-swr.jpg

Yes, John, it's there. No problem.


Bob, W9DMK, Dahlgren, VA
Replace "nobody" with my callsign for e-mail
http://www.qsl.net/w9dmk
http://zaffora/f2o.org/W9DMK/W9dmk.html

Well, can't remember where I seen that "directional coupler", but will be
willing to give the designer credit if he makes himself know...

The led indicating circuit is my design...

It seems to work, all I have is another SWR with analog meter I constructed
myself to compare it with, soon as I locate someone with a commercial
meter--I will compare both of mine to it... Only real apparent problem is
the REF led changes brightness slowly (and here it is hard to "judge" SWR by
brilliance), until right at, or near, match, when it will plunge to darkness
rather quickly...

Well, show me what is wrong and suggest an alternative circuit or mods to
set it proper (or explain in text, I will see how good I am at word problems
here)--I am all EARS Cecil... smile

Regards,
John

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
| John Smith wrote:
| OK, one... more.... time!!! there is no time yanno!
| Please someone, see if you can view the page he
| http://blake.prohosting.com/mailguy2/JS-swr.jpg
|
| You have a number of problems. Where did you get that design?
| In order to separate the forward power from the reflected
| power, you need to use phasor addition/subtraction of voltage
| and current. You only have current sampled. Where is your
| voltage sample? Where is your phasor addition/subtraction?
| --
| 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp
|
|
| ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
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On Tue, 3 May 2005 17:18:33 -0700, "John Smith"
wrote:

Please someone, see if you can view the page he
http://blake.prohosting.com/mailguy2/JS-swr.jpg

Hi Brett,

A most unusual indicator if ever I've seen one (and I've seen many).

What you have (if you can generate enough voltage - it will take about
35-40W of transmit power) is an emergency flasher weakly lighting the
alternate LEDs at an HF rate.

This is with Red LEDs, as I offered in another posting, if you tried
with Blue LEDs, you would need more like 170W to weakly light them.

The 100K is literally useless (as are the 1N914s), and the 1K is a
severe handicap. Once you get past those limitations you will have a
brighter flasher at no big hit to the overall efficiency - if a
flasher is what you want. Mad Man Muntz with his dikes would have a
glorious time trimming back the excess here.

It might sell well to the CB crowd that wants 27 MHz strobing brake
lights. Could even perform better for night time DX than some rear
mounted bumper whips. Perhaps a better use of their linears - as
legal power won't light this circuit.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

On Tue, 03 May 2005 22:12:31 -0700, Richard Clark
wrote:

an emergency flasher weakly lighting the alternate LEDs at an HF rate.

On review of the circuit (having neglected the capacitors) it looks
more like a lower rate in a somewhat haphazard logic race of a
relaxation oscillator whose RC (1K-101K times 0.01µF) still makes this
wobbulate at higher than visible rate (or lower than perceptible
brightness, take your pick).

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

grin
Ahhhh, Richard, your armour and weapons rattle as you come down the hall...

Well, it doesn't flash, and it does seem to work... albeit in a bit of a
"sloppy" fashion (tuning is sloppy as to light changes in the REF led)...
and you are correct, the 100k (and the 1k is there in series too) is barely
enough to keep from burning out the leds and a kludge...

If you HAD to make this circuit work, I am interested, and certainly I think
you of an intellect capable--what changes would you make--keeping as much of
the original circuit as possible?

Warmest regards,
John

"Richard Clark" wrote in message
news | On Tue, 03 May 2005 22:12:31 -0700, Richard Clark
| wrote:
|
| an emergency flasher weakly lighting the alternate LEDs at an HF rate.
|
| On review of the circuit (having neglected the capacitors) it looks
| more like a lower rate in a somewhat haphazard logic race of a
| relaxation oscillator whose RC (1K-101K times 0.01µF) still makes this
| wobbulate at higher than visible rate (or lower than perceptible
| brightness, take your pick).
|
| 73's
| Richard Clark, KB7QHC

On Tue, 3 May 2005 22:31:29 -0700, "John Smith"
wrote:

Well, it doesn't flash,

Hi Brett,

How could you tell? Everything about this is far too fast for the eye
to perceive. But we let that pass.

and it does seem to work... albeit in a bit of a
"sloppy" fashion (tuning is sloppy as to light changes in the REF led)...
and you are correct, the 100k (and the 1k is there in series too) is barely
enough to keep from burning out the leds and a kludge...

Barely enough? The problem is it is far too much. You would have to
pump 3KW (matched) through this SWR meter to run the forward LED at
rated current.

The eye is a miserable detector of absolutes, and what you perceive as
bright with whatever current is eking its way through the circuit, is
a sad comparison to what the LED could support. The proper comparison
is done by what is called optical pyrometry, but then that is the
wrong kind of balance for this application.

If you HAD to make this circuit work, I am interested, and certainly I think
you of an intellect capable--what changes would you make--keeping as much of
the original circuit as possible?

Research the "Bruene SWR meter" to find out where you went wrong in
the circuit topology. If you are going to substitute LEDs for meters,
take heed that they are power indicators, not current indicators.
This is some advantage in one sense, and a divergence from the
standard presentation in another sense. Not keeping track of the
sense can get your necktie wrapped around the axle. Mixing LED types
like for Green forward power and Red for reverse power (or t'other way
'round) can really gum up the works when it comes to sizing other
component values.

A simple test of how confounding the eye can be is found in the
question:
"How bright can the Red be in proportion to the Green?"
By the simple electronics, this is a slam dunk. By appearance from
those same electronics, you are off by two orders of magnitude. By
conversion efficiencies there are still major errors of appearance.
Once you get all these balanced out, you still have to answer the
question whose psychology will still perturb most users. Try writing
the answer for a User's Manual (the ultimate test of functionality).

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

John Smith wrote:
It seems to work, all I have is another SWR with analog meter I constructed
myself to compare it with, soon as I locate someone with a commercial
meter--I will compare both of mine to it... Only real apparent problem is
the REF led changes brightness slowly (and here it is hard to "judge" SWR by
brilliance), until right at, or near, match, when it will plunge to darkness
rather quickly...

You are not reading SWR. All you are reading is net current.
Both LEDs have the same rectified net current through them.

Well, show me what is wrong and suggest an alternative circuit or mods to
set it proper (or explain in text, I will see how good I am at word problems
here)--I am all EARS Cecil... smile

Here's the last one I looked at:

http://www.mfjenterprises.com/man/pdf/MFJ-974H.pdf

You'll recognize the SWR circuitry at the input connector. Note
the capacitive dividers. That's what your circuit is missing.
Nowhere does your circuit sample the RF voltage.

This type of SWR meter samples the RF voltage (using a capacitive
divider) as one parameter. It samples the RF current (using the
toroid) as the other parameter. The two parameters are added before
rectification to obtain the forward power. The two parameters are
subtracted before rectification to obtain the reflected power. The
phasor addition and subtraction must be done before rectification.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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Well, If there is a voltage, there is a current (albeit, at times very
small)--the opposite is also true, ohms law is standing proof...



Why can't I measure the standing wave ratio as a ratio of power, as opposed
to voltage or even current reflected... the three are tied together, isn't
it impossible to separate any one from the other two (and, I mean in
reality, NOT in theory)--even though at times one can appear as
insignificant to an observer?



I see the design I sketched as an SWR device, perhaps not VSWR, or
ISWR--but, PSWR...



What would favor choosing the voltage device over the current or power SWR
devices?



Or, am I imagining something?



Warmest regards,

John


"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
| John Smith wrote:
| It seems to work, all I have is another SWR with analog meter I
constructed
| myself to compare it with, soon as I locate someone with a commercial
| meter--I will compare both of mine to it... Only real apparent problem
is
| the REF led changes brightness slowly (and here it is hard to "judge"
SWR by
| brilliance), until right at, or near, match, when it will plunge to
darkness
| rather quickly...
|
| You are not reading SWR. All you are reading is net current.
| Both LEDs have the same rectified net current through them.
|
| Well, show me what is wrong and suggest an alternative circuit or mods
to
| set it proper (or explain in text, I will see how good I am at word
problems
| here)--I am all EARS Cecil... smile
|
| Here's the last one I looked at:
|
| http://www.mfjenterprises.com/man/pdf/MFJ-974H.pdf
|
| You'll recognize the SWR circuitry at the input connector. Note
| the capacitive dividers. That's what your circuit is missing.
| Nowhere does your circuit sample the RF voltage.
|
| This type of SWR meter samples the RF voltage (using a capacitive
| divider) as one parameter. It samples the RF current (using the
| toroid) as the other parameter. The two parameters are added before
| rectification to obtain the forward power. The two parameters are
| subtracted before rectification to obtain the reflected power. The
| phasor addition and subtraction must be done before rectification.
| --
| 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp
|
| ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
News==----
| http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+
Newsgroups
| ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
=----

On Wed, 4 May 2005 09:14:37 -0700, "John Smith"
wrote:
I see the design I sketched as an SWR device, perhaps not VSWR, or
ISWR--but, PSWR...
Not even that.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Well, I should have stated my goal with this "eccentric device."

I wish an indication of SWR which is cheap, uses fewest parts possible, and
has the possibility of "automatic operation" and one can be placed on each
and every antenna I am playing with (or anything else, maybe one on the bird
fountain! grin)...

I bought a box of these LEDS at a surplus dealer, 10,000 LEDS in the main
box, with 10 sub-boxes, each containing 1,000. They are a yellow/orange
color--unique color to most I have seen...

They seem to handle 20 ma for days on end with no problem--they are VERY
bright at 5 ma (at least as bright as a "standard issue LED" at 10-20 ma)...

The info on the box is as such:
SIEMENS COMPONENTS
Made in Malaysia
LOT NO. 72870422
PART NO. Q6270303638
PRODUCT ID. LY 5436-TO
DVP NO. 2605-9491-01
D/C: 9716
PROD NO. 97700420

I have done nothing but use them, have not even taken time to drop a VOM on
'em and measured the voltage drop across one--they are my favorite for
projects (well, I am cheap and have a FEW of 'em!!!)....

My design criteria a
1) CHEAP!
2) Cheap!
3) Few parts...
4) At least marginally workable...

Warmest regards,
John

"Richard Clark" wrote in message
...
| On Tue, 3 May 2005 17:18:33 -0700, "John Smith"
| wrote:
|
| Please someone, see if you can view the page he
| http://blake.prohosting.com/mailguy2/JS-swr.jpg
|
| Hi Brett,
|
| A most unusual indicator if ever I've seen one (and I've seen many).
|
| What you have (if you can generate enough voltage - it will take about
| 35-40W of transmit power) is an emergency flasher weakly lighting the
| alternate LEDs at an HF rate.
|
| This is with Red LEDs, as I offered in another posting, if you tried
| with Blue LEDs, you would need more like 170W to weakly light them.
|
| The 100K is literally useless (as are the 1N914s), and the 1K is a
| severe handicap. Once you get past those limitations you will have a
| brighter flasher at no big hit to the overall efficiency - if a
| flasher is what you want. Mad Man Muntz with his dikes would have a
| glorious time trimming back the excess here.
|
| It might sell well to the CB crowd that wants 27 MHz strobing brake
| lights. Could even perform better for night time DX than some rear
| mounted bumper whips. Perhaps a better use of their linears - as
| legal power won't light this circuit.
|
| 73's
| Richard Clark, KB7QHC