"Sven Franklyn Weil" wrote in message
...
In article , David Eduardo wrote: can
attest to the potential of better quality. AM IBOC on the couple of
receivers we have sounds better than some of the more squashed FMs in

Yeah but I bet its trashing the analog signal that people are
listening to. WOR in New York sounds like a buzz-saw when its running
IBOC. Not that it's any better at night anymore either. Music sounds
all distorted and clipped.

We bought a dozen or so average consumer radios, from a walkman to a boom
box to a clock radio, and whatever is in between. On every one, the music in
analog sounds as good as it did before, and switching the IBOC on and off
produced during several days of testing no significant differences on
average radios.

The only thing that IBOC requires is a narrower analog bandwidth. The
processing stays the same, and most radios sound identical as they have
limited bandwidth to begin with.

On 20 Dec 2003 06:38:10 GMT, "David Eduardo"
wrote:

We bought a dozen or so average consumer radios, from a walkman to a boom
box to a clock radio, and whatever is in between. On every one, the music in
analog sounds as good as it did before, and switching the IBOC on and off
produced during several days of testing no significant differences on
average radios.

Your experience is precisely the opposite of a 50kw (oldies) music
station with which I am familiar. It turned off the IBOC because of
unacceptable adjacent channel interference issues. To the great
surprise of the PD, who believed as you do that no one would notice
the difference in the analog bandwidth, he immediately began getting
calls from listeners during his airshift saying the sound of the
station had improved greatly, and praising the station for whatever it
had done to make it sound so much better. AFAIK this station has no
immediate plans to resume testing of IBOC.

I personally have heard this station with IBOC operating and found the
analog signal nearly unlistenable on a narrow-band standard GM car
radio.

Mark Howell

In article , Mark Howell wrote:
Your experience is precisely the opposite of a 50kw (oldies) music
station with which I am familiar. It turned off the IBOC because of
unacceptable adjacent channel interference issues. To the great

Two stations here in the New York City market (WPAT-AM 93 Paterson and
WZRC-AM 1480 New York) were also trial-running IBOC, in addition to
WOR-710.

The test didn't last for even a month.....

Maybe there's something to do with the processing or what. Who knows.

All I know is, when I'm listening to WOR with IBOC going, there is
also a hiss in the audio - almost like tape hiss. And this is on a
medium quality digitally tuned walkman, so I know I have the station
on the dot.

However, on some realy really low-fi clock radios and pocket radios
the station sounds 'OK' sort of...not including the hissing going down
all the way to 68 and to 74 (where it's sort of overridden by the
splatter from the stations at 66 WFAN and 77 WABC respectively.

--
Sven Weil
New York City, U.S.A.

David Eduardo had written:

| We bought a dozen or so average consumer radios, from a walkman to a boom
| box to a clock radio, and whatever is in between. On every one, the music in
| analog sounds as good as it did before, and switching the IBOC on and off
| produced during several days of testing no significant differences on
| average radios.

Has anyone thought to test on car radios? It's my observation that
the average car radio on AM has more sensitivity and (sometimes) wider
bandwidth than the average home unit. That, to me, would seem to be
the acid test.

Most of the stuff you can get in a Target or Mall-Wart for home
use is pretty junky. A Zenith Circle-of-Sound clock radio from the
1970s will run circles around anything for home use today.
(I miss Zenith in a curious kind of way.) The best recent unit that
I have is a Cambridge Sound Works Model 88 from 2001. It seems fully
NSRC compliant. The two music stations on AM that I could stand to
listen to for extended periods, KFRC (oldies) and KMZT (classical)
sound reasonably good -- not quite FM, but better than almost any
AM. It's a little weak as far as sensitivity goes, though.

| The only thing that IBOC requires is a narrower analog bandwidth. The
| processing stays the same, and most radios sound identical as they have
| limited bandwidth to begin with.

But then there is the interference. Electrical interference on AM is
bad enough as it is.

--
"Right here in Minnesota!"
"Bullwinkle, that's Florida!"
"Well, if they're gonna keep adding states all the time, they
can't expect me to keep up!" -- Rocky & Bullwinkle, episode 5, 1960

I had an opportunity to listen to WKMI today. My wife left me in her
car for a minute while she ran into a store to pick up something. The
fact that the minute turned out to be an hour is immaterial to this
discussion She has a 2002 car with a Bose audio system so it's
capable of good quality. We were within the WKMI 2 mv/m contour in a
quiet (RF wise) location in which I was able to listen to a 1 kw AM
station about 20 miles away with a good signal. I listened to all the
AM stations in the market and WKMI sounded to me like either something
was being over driven or more likely the RF final (if they still have a
plate modulated transmitter) is soft and they are pushing it hard to get
power output.

But then again (if it is plate modulated) it could be a really sick tube
in the modulator section. Listening to adjacent channels I do not
believe that they are running IBOC.
I'm going to have to do some checking next week to figure this out.
Unless they are waiting for parts I can't believe anyone would let this
go like it is for long.

Chuck

Mark Roberts wrote:

Has anyone thought to test on car radios? It's my observation that
the average car radio on AM has more sensitivity and (sometimes) wider
bandwidth than the average home unit. That, to me, would seem to be
the acid test.

Most of the stuff you can get in a Target or Mall-Wart for home
use is pretty junky. A Zenith Circle-of-Sound clock radio from the
1970s will run circles around anything for home use today.
(I miss Zenith in a curious kind of way.) The best recent unit that
I have is a Cambridge Sound Works Model 88 from 2001. It seems fully
NSRC compliant. The two music stations on AM that I could stand to
listen to for extended periods, KFRC (oldies) and KMZT (classical)
sound reasonably good -- not quite FM, but better than almost any
AM. It's a little weak as far as sensitivity goes, though.

| The only thing that IBOC requires is a narrower analog bandwidth. The
| processing stays the same, and most radios sound identical as they have
| limited bandwidth to begin with.

But then there is the interference. Electrical interference on AM is
bad enough as it is.

"Mark Roberts" wrote in message
...
David Eduardo had written:

| We bought a dozen or so average consumer radios, from a walkman to a
boom
| box to a clock radio, and whatever is in between. On every one, the
music in
| analog sounds as good as it did before, and switching the IBOC on and
off
| produced during several days of testing no significant differences on
| average radios.

Has anyone thought to test on car radios? It's my observation that
the average car radio on AM has more sensitivity and (sometimes) wider
bandwidth than the average home unit. That, to me, would seem to be
the acid test.

All of us tested our own car radios, which, with two exceptions, are anoalog
only. We noticed no difference. I probably had the acid test in my hands, as
I had created the format and know the music to the point I can hear it
without a radio. I noted no difference in any car radio, ranging from a
$39.95 cheapie in a van to a $3,000 Bose system.

Most of the stuff you can get in a Target or Mall-Wart for home
use is pretty junky.

But nearly 75% of all listening is in the home or office, not the car.

A Zenith Circle-of-Sound clock radio from the
1970s will run circles around anything for home use today.
(I miss Zenith in a curious kind of way.) The best recent unit that
I have is a Cambridge Sound Works Model 88 from 2001. It seems fully
NSRC compliant. The two music stations on AM that I could stand to
listen to for extended periods, KFRC (oldies) and KMZT (classical)
sound reasonably good -- not quite FM, but better than almost any
AM. It's a little weak as far as sensitivity goes, though.

I had a McKay-Dymek in the 70's and 80's and it was the radio that I used to
do an initial set-up of audio chains. However, even then we did the same
thing as today: purchase of radios typical of those used for 90% of
listening. And adjustments were made to optimize the sound for the last 10
years or so of consumer gear.

| The only thing that IBOC requires is a narrower analog bandwidth. The
| processing stays the same, and most radios sound identical as they have
| limited bandwidth to begin with.

But then there is the interference. Electrical interference on AM is
bad enough as it is.

The interference to other stations takes place in areas where those other
stations do not have listeners. the minor inconvenience of not being able to
DX 1010 and 1030 in LA is nothing compared with the gain of eventual broad
acceptance of digital AM.

"David Eduardo" wrote in message
...

Most of the stuff you can get in a Target or Mall-Wart for home
use is pretty junky.

But nearly 75% of all listening is in the home or office, not the car.

For all bands of radio combined, perhaps. It can't possibly be true for AM.

Jerome

"Cooperstown.Net" wrote in message
...
"David Eduardo" wrote in message
...

Most of the stuff you can get in a Target or Mall-Wart for home
use is pretty junky.

But nearly 75% of all listening is in the home or office, not the car.

For all bands of radio combined, perhaps. It can't possibly be true
for AM.

There are only 2 bands, AM and FM, that appear in ratings above minimum
reporting standards.

I ran audience by location for LA, the highest in-car location in the US.

AM
At Home 49%
In Car 36%
At work 14%

FM
At home 42%
In Car 30%
At work 25%

There is a small AM advantage in car, a larger one in home, and a
disadvantage at work.

Nationally, a greater portion of listening is in home and at work, due to
shorter commute times than LA. And the AM vs. FM in car distinction is
smaller still due to that very same commute time reduction.

In Chicago, for example, the difference in percentage of AM and FM listening
in car is less than 2 percent, at just under 30% of listening time. In a
market like El Paso, with significantly less commute distances, the AM and
FM percentage that is in-car is about 25% for each band.

We bought a dozen or so average consumer radios, from a walkman to a boom
box to a clock radio, and whatever is in between. On every one, the music in
analog sounds as good as it did before, and switching the IBOC on and off
produced during several days of testing no significant differences on
average radios.

Try it on a GE Superadio III. It's an "average" radio that you can
buy for $49 at Sears. If you can't hear the difference in quality
with the IBOC on, then a hearing check is in order.

Mark my words... IBOC on AM will be a flop. In addition to the
horrendous interference, degraded analog audio, and artifact-laden
digital audio, who would spend $500+ for an "HD Radio" setup, just to
hear the same local stations, when XM or Sirius costs less than half
as much and delivers 100 channels of new, exciting, and often
commercial-free programming? And when the radio stations realize that
consumers aren't going for it, who would spend the $75,000 - $100,000
per station to convert to IBOC?

Arthur Liu's Multicultural Broadcasting tried IBOC on 930 WPAT and
1480 WZRC in the NYC area. But they gave up on it after only a few
weeks on the air, because of the degradation of audio and signal
quality, and because none of these stations' listeners would ever care
to own an IBOC receiver, even *if* they were available in stores. But
it's funny -- you never hear about these kinds of negative experiences
in Radio World or other publications that are rabidly pro-IBOC. And I
know things are really strange when even _David Eduardo_ is speaking
favorably of IBOC. What is the world coming to?

"WBRW" wrote in message
...
We bought a dozen or so average consumer radios, from a walkman to a
boom
box to a clock radio, and whatever is in between. On every one, the
music in
analog sounds as good as it did before, and switching the IBOC on and
off
produced during several days of testing no significant differences on
average radios.

Try it on a GE Superadio III. It's an "average" radio that you can
buy for $49 at Sears. If you can't hear the difference in quality
with the IBOC on, then a hearing check is in order.

The number of such radios pales when comparred to the number represented by
more typical devices. I'll bet that in LA, the case in point, there are less
than 2,000 of those radios. Who would buy a very expensive portable radio
that promotes high AM quality as its selling point? Answer: talk show
addicts who have a hard time hearing a local station.

Mark my words... IBOC on AM will be a flop. In addition to the
horrendous interference, degraded analog audio, and artifact-laden
digital audio, who would spend $500+ for an "HD Radio" setup, just to
hear the same local stations,

The receivers will be below $100 within 12 months, if not sooner. the prices
will track CD players and DVD players in price declines.

The fact that most radio listening is to local stations answers that
question.

And I have heard AM IBOC and it sounds better than many highly compressed
FMs I A/B'd with. The new algorithm is excellent.

On 99% of AM receivers, there is no analog degradation because the receivers
are not wide enough to detect the difference.

when XM or Sirius costs less than half
as much and delivers 100 channels of new, exciting, and often
commercial-free programming?

You forget that a full installation is not just the radio, but the
installation and antenna. And then there is $10 to $13 a month in user fees,
plus tax.

And when the radio stations realize that
consumers aren't going for it, who would spend the $75,000 - $100,000
per station to convert to IBOC?

You are letting the cart get ahead of the horse. The CES is going to be
filled with IBOC equipment, and I believe some at much more affordable
prices.


Arthur Liu's Multicultural Broadcasting tried IBOC on 930 WPAT and
1480 WZRC in the NYC area. But they gave up on it after only a few
weeks on the air, because of the degradation of audio and signal
quality, and because none of these stations' listeners would ever care
to own an IBOC receiver, even *if* they were available in stores. But
it's funny -- you never hear about these kinds of negative experiences
in Radio World or other publications that are rabidly pro-IBOC. And I
know things are really strange when even _David Eduardo_ is speaking
favorably of IBOC. What is the world coming to?

1480 and even 930 are miserable signals. Both also roabably have high-Q
antennas. On a good system, IBOC sounds good, and the analgo audio is
indistinguishable from the "way it was before."

Many stations, especially those doing block, brokered programming, will not
gain initially from IBOC. those with decent signals can gain a lot.