Please re-read Phil's reply again. You missed the point as to each
administration is free to do as they please. So far, the FCC has not seen
to eliminate the Morse requirement. Period.

73 from Rochester, NY
Jim



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"Jim Hampton" wrote in
:

Please re-read Phil's reply again. You missed the point as to each
administration is free to do as they please. So far, the FCC has not
seen to eliminate the Morse requirement. Period.

73 from Rochester, NY
Jim



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No I am well aware of that point. However, the FCCs implementation of
requiring a code test is different for Techs than it is for Generals and
Extras. Generals and Extras are required to pass Element 1, and Techs are
not. Access for Techs to the Novice HF subbands is __not__ conditioned on
passing Element 1, but only upon having "received credit for proficiency
in telegraphy in accordance with the international requirements" (from
rule 97.301(e)).

Given that s25.5 leaves it open for each administration to determine if a
code test is required, with no mention of any specific frequencies, the
only rule the FCC chooses to make for Tech HF access is 97.301(e), which
in turn includes the words "in accordance with international
requirements", i.e. in accordance with s25.5.

So, the FCC rule implies that a code test is required if s25.5 requires
it, and s25.5 says that a code test is required if the administration (the
FCC) requires it! This is a circular process, in fact one that could go
around in ever decreasing circles! Each rule appears to be conditional
upon the other! Obviously those who drafted the rules did not intend this,
but the ITU rule has changed in a way that was not anticipated.

It would seem to me that if two rules each require that a specific
condition must be met only if the other rule requires it, then in fact
that condition does not have to be met.

On Tue, 29 Jul 2003, Alun Palmer wrote:
"Jim Hampton" wrote in
:

Please re-read Phil's reply again. You missed the point as to each
administration is free to do as they please. So far, the FCC has not
seen to eliminate the Morse requirement. Period.

73 from Rochester, NY
Jim



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No I am well aware of that point. However, the FCCs implementation of
requiring a code test is different for Techs than it is for Generals and
Extras. Generals and Extras are required to pass Element 1, and Techs are
not. Access for Techs to the Novice HF subbands is __not__ conditioned on
passing Element 1, but only upon having "received credit for proficiency
in telegraphy in accordance with the international requirements" (from
rule 97.301(e)).

Given that s25.5 leaves it open for each administration to determine if a
code test is required, with no mention of any specific frequencies, the
only rule the FCC chooses to make for Tech HF access is 97.301(e), which
in turn includes the words "in accordance with international
requirements", i.e. in accordance with s25.5.

You did fine up to here. I fully agree.

So, the FCC rule implies that a code test is required if s25.5 requires
it, and s25.5 says that a code test is required if the administration (the
FCC) requires it! This is a circular process, in fact one that could go
around in ever decreasing circles! Each rule appears to be conditional
upon the other! Obviously those who drafted the rules did not intend this,
but the ITU rule has changed in a way that was not anticipated.

If a government can choose NOT to require something, then it is not an
international requirement but an option. The FCC regulation is dependent on an
international requirement that no longer exists, so how can anyone show
compliance with it?

They can't. What this was was a way for the FCC to get rid of the "technician"
HF privileges and make the novice license so useless that the latter will
either upgrade or die. They dont' have to worry about the "tech plus" class
anymore - there isn't one! 47 CFR 97.21(e) [or whatever it is] that designates
renewals of technician plus licensees as technician demonstrates the FCC's real
intent on this issue.

It would seem to me that if two rules each require that a specific
condition must be met only if the other rule requires it, then in fact
that condition does not have to be met.

I disagree to as what it says.

I state that what the FCC wrote is that the licensee is to meet a requirement
that is now impossible to meet because it no longer exists.

On Mon, 28 Jul 2003, Jim Hampton wrote:
Please re-read Phil's reply again. You missed the point as to each
administration is free to do as they please. So far, the FCC has not seen
to eliminate the Morse requirement. Period.

If any entity has a choice, then how can it be called a requirement?

D. Stussy wrote:
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003, Jim Hampton wrote:

Please re-read Phil's reply again. You missed the point as to each
administration is free to do as they please. So far, the FCC has not seen
to eliminate the Morse requirement. Period.


If any entity has a choice, then how can it be called a requirement?

The international requirement meant that all entities had to require a
code test for HF privileges. Now the international requirement has been
dropped, now each entity can decided for itself if it wants to require a
code test for HF privileges, and until the FCC changes the rules, it is
still required for U.S. hams. What is so hard to understand about that?

On Mon, 28 Jul 2003, JJ wrote:
D. Stussy wrote:
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003, Jim Hampton wrote:

Please re-read Phil's reply again. You missed the point as to each
administration is free to do as they please. So far, the FCC has not seen
to eliminate the Morse requirement. Period.


If any entity has a choice, then how can it be called a requirement?

The international requirement meant that all entities had to require a
code test for HF privileges. Now the international requirement has been
dropped, now each entity can decided for itself if it wants to require a
code test for HF privileges, and until the FCC changes the rules, it is
still required for U.S. hams. What is so hard to understand about that?

That means that there is no international requirement (in your words, "has been
dropped").

I agree exactly: "Until the FCC changes the rules, it is still required ...."

How do you show compliance with a non-existent requirement?
Please demonstrate your proof.