"harvey" wrote in message
.. .

"Leland C. Scott" wrote in message
...
|
| "Twistedhed" wrote in message
| ...
| The large corporations continue to do business as usual while the
| feds pacify insignificants with smoke and mirrors (fines).
|
| Except when the "go to jail" part of the penalty comes up for repeated
| violations. Also don't overlook that some of those Pilot Travel centers
may
| be wholly own franchises where the owner has to pay the fine if they get
| busted. The real fine is having to go to court to fight the FCC, and
that
| sounds like what may happen. When it does it could cost them much more
than
| the $125K fine depending on how far they want to take the fight up the
legal
| ladder. This would be the case to watch.
| --
| Leland C. Scott
| KC8LDO
|
i think a company whose one branch makes over 5 billion a yr will just
shrug
this off....
harv

For a large company yeah you're right. But then again if one of the
executives ends up in jail, which they can, then taking the radios off the
shelf would have looked like the smart thing to do and then just shrug it
off. Lately the government likes throwing white collar company executives in
jail for wrong doing. After all just how much money are they going to
realistically loose anyway from dumping the questionable radios from their
sales line up? Not much is my guess. If the FCC chooses to play hard-ball I
expect they will just do what the FCC told them to do, and not waste any
more time or money on something that won't materially affect their bottom
line.


--
Leland C. Scott
KC8LDO

Wireless Network
Mobile computing
on the go brought
to you by Micro$oft

"Leland C. Scott" wrote in message
...
|
| "harvey" wrote in message
| .. .
|
| "Leland C. Scott" wrote in message
| ...
| |
| | "Twistedhed" wrote in message
| | ...
| | The large corporations continue to do business as usual while the
| | feds pacify insignificants with smoke and mirrors (fines).
| |
| | Except when the "go to jail" part of the penalty comes up for repeated
| | violations. Also don't overlook that some of those Pilot Travel
centers
| may
| | be wholly own franchises where the owner has to pay the fine if they
get
| | busted. The real fine is having to go to court to fight the FCC, and
| that
| | sounds like what may happen. When it does it could cost them much more
| than
| | the $125K fine depending on how far they want to take the fight up the
| legal
| | ladder. This would be the case to watch.
| | --
| | Leland C. Scott
| | KC8LDO
| |
| i think a company whose one branch makes over 5 billion a yr will just
| shrug
| this off....
| harv
|
| For a large company yeah you're right. But then again if one of the
| executives ends up in jail, which they can, then taking the radios off the
| shelf would have looked like the smart thing to do and then just shrug it
| off. Lately the government likes throwing white collar company executives
in
| jail for wrong doing. After all just how much money are they going to
| realistically loose anyway from dumping the questionable radios from their
| sales line up? Not much is my guess. If the FCC chooses to play hard-ball
I
| expect they will just do what the FCC told them to do, and not waste any
| more time or money on something that won't materially affect their bottom
| line.
|
|
| --
| Leland C. Scott
| KC8LDO
|
| Wireless Network
| Mobile computing
| on the go brought
| to you by Micro$oft
|
|i'll have to agree with ya on that leland-wouldnt ya like to be the fly on
the wall and hear the conversation that happens when they pull in the guy or
gal who decided to add them to their line-up on the selves...lol....fingers
may be pointing all over the place..lol
harv

From: (Leland=A0C.=A0Scott)
"harvey" wrote in message
.. .
"Leland C. Scott" wrote in message
...
|
| "Twistedhed" wrote in message |
... | The large
corporations continue to do business as usual while the feds pacify
insignificants with smoke and mirrors (fines).

Except when the "go to jail" part of the penalty
comes up for repeated | violations. Also don't

overlook that some of those Pilot Travel

centers may

be wholly own franchises where the owner

has to pay the fine if they get | busted. The

real fine is having to go to court to fight the

FCC, and that sounds like what may happen.

When it does it could cost them much more

than

the $125K fine depending on how far they

want to take the fight up the legal

ladder. This would be the case to watch.

=A0--

Leland C. Scott

KC8LDO

(i think a company whose one branch makes over 5 billion a yr will just
shrug this off....
harv )
_
For a large company yeah you're right. But

then again if one of the executives ends up in

jail, which they can, then taking the radios off

the shelf would have looked like the smart

thing to do and then just shrug it off.


But you MUST consider the probability factor. What you propose is
deviation from the norm concerning the FCC. You have a better chance of
hitting the lotto. Not going to happen. You are discounting the monetary
factor, here. I believe you are missing the monetary picture here of why
the huge companies stay in business year after year when only the
littles ones are closed and put out of business.



Lately the government likes throwing white

collar company executives in jail for wrong

doing.


Cite a single case involving the FCC tossing a white collar exec in jail
for a similar charge.


After all just how much money are they going

to realistically loose anyway from dumping the
questionable radios from their sales line up?




Nothing, 'cause the radios aren't being dumped.

Not much is my guess. If the FCC chooses to

play hard-ball I expect they will just do what

the FCC told them to do, and not waste any

more time or money on something that won't

materially affect their bottom line.


Your position is based upon suppositions, the "if" factor, and the
assumption the FCC is changing the manner in whcih they operate, as
opposed to reality,,..business-as-usual within the FCC and minimal
enforcement. In fact, Riley has written the FCC considers many of these
complainants a pain-in-the-ass..he didn't come out and say those exact
words, but DID say these type hammies (Oxendine) are often worse than
the offenders themselves. An incredible statement from the head
enforcement officer at the FCC.


--

Leland C. Scott

KC8LDO

Wireless Network

Mobile computing

on the go brought

to you by Micro$oft

"Twistedhed" wrote in message
...

But you MUST consider the probability factor. What you propose is
deviation from the norm concerning the FCC.

Not really. Take a look at the other enforcement actions for such things as
tower height and lighting etc.

You have a better chance of
hitting the lotto. Not going to happen. You are discounting the monetary
factor, here. I believe you are missing the monetary picture here of why
the huge companies stay in business year after year when only the
littles ones are closed and put out of business.

The FCC's aim is not to put anybody out of business, but to bring them in to
compliance with FCC regulations.

Cite a single case involving the FCC tossing a white collar exec in jail
for a similar charge.

I don't have any at my finger tips, but that doesn't mean that there aren't
any. And if by chance there are non there is always a first time. As they
say with investing "past performance is no indication of future returns", in
other words they, the FCC, could do so at their discretion.

Nothing, 'cause the radios aren't being dumped.

I was referring to lost profits from removing the product line from their
travel centers.

Your position is based upon suppositions, the "if" factor, and the
assumption the FCC is changing the manner in whcih they operate, as
opposed to reality,,..business-as-usual within the FCC and minimal
enforcement.

I remember comments being offered up a year or two ago along the line that
the FCC wasn't going to do anything about 10m intruders. Looks like they are
doing something now. Assuming that the FCC won't get more aggressive in the
future is not being smart. All it takes is a change in the leadership of the
FCC. Imagine if a new FCC chairmen is appointed, and is a Ham with an ax to
grind about the present situation?


In fact, Riley has written the FCC considers many of these
complainants a pain-in-the-ass..he didn't come out and say those exact
words,

Well what exactly did he say? I'm sure others would like to read the
comments for themselves and make their own determination. I know I would. I
have been to some Hamfests where he was a guest speaker, and I don't get the
impression that you got.

but DID say these type hammies (Oxendine) are often worse than
the offenders themselves. An incredible statement from the head
enforcement officer at the FCC.

And just what "type" is that? I'm not an apologist for Jerry but I see his
point. If he has to be a thorn in the FCC's Butt, so be it. I have yet to
see any government agency that didn't perform better if wasn't for some
citizen getting on their case about doing the job they are being paid to do.


--
Leland C. Scott
KC8LDO

Wireless Network
Mobile computing
on the go brought
to you by Micro$oft

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:15:29 -0500, "Leland C. Scott"
wrote in :


"Twistedhed" wrote in message
...

But you MUST consider the probability factor. What you propose is
deviation from the norm concerning the FCC.

Not really. Take a look at the other enforcement actions for such things as
tower height and lighting etc.


Enforcement is but a shadow of what it once was. Back in the early
'60s the FCC would yank your CB license and/or slap you with a fine
just for violating the time-out rule, and they popped hoardes of CBers
for that and many other minor violations.

Looking at the enforcement efforts of the FCC for the past several
years there are two trends that become apparent: the number of FCC
enforcement actions have been steadily declining, and the fines have
been steadily increasing. You might also notice that lately the FCC
rarely fines any person or company an amount that's beyond their means
to pay. It should be glaringly obvious that the primary focus of the
FCC is on the money, not on the enforcement. I wouldn't be suprised if
the FCC performs financial background checks before issuing NALs. The
FCC could do far more to enforce the regulations than their occasional
shakedown tour in the vice district.


You have a better chance of
hitting the lotto. Not going to happen. You are discounting the monetary
factor, here. I believe you are missing the monetary picture here of why
the huge companies stay in business year after year when only the
littles ones are closed and put out of business.

The FCC's aim is not to put anybody out of business, but to bring them in to
compliance with FCC regulations.


Think about it: a federal agency with the power to execute searches
without a warrant, impose penalties without due process, and make up
their own rules as they go; yet the violations continue unabated. And
the only benefits from their actions are seen by the Treasury Dept.


Cite a single case involving the FCC tossing a white collar exec in jail
for a similar charge.

I don't have any at my finger tips, but that doesn't mean that there aren't
any. And if by chance there are non there is always a first time. As they
say with investing "past performance is no indication of future returns", in
other words they, the FCC, could do so at their discretion.


They won't. If they did there would be constitutional challenges to
their rules and the FCC would probably lose -- at the very least it
would be a costly trial. That's also why the fines are never enough to
incite any legal challenge in the courts, or to people and companies
that do not have the financial resources to mount such a challenge.


Nothing, 'cause the radios aren't being dumped.

I was referring to lost profits from removing the product line from their
travel centers.

Your position is based upon suppositions, the "if" factor, and the
assumption the FCC is changing the manner in whcih they operate, as
opposed to reality,,..business-as-usual within the FCC and minimal
enforcement.

I remember comments being offered up a year or two ago along the line that
the FCC wasn't going to do anything about 10m intruders. Looks like they are
doing something now.


A token effort, just enough to keep the hammies thinking that they
aren't being ignored.


Assuming that the FCC won't get more aggressive in the
future is not being smart. All it takes is a change in the leadership of the
FCC. Imagine if a new FCC chairmen is appointed, and is a Ham with an ax to
grind about the present situation?


The chairman has very little power to change the workings of the FCC.
It is the commission as a whole that has the power in that agency, and
therefore it is controlled by whomever controls the commissioners.
Since there is so much corporate interest in the other aspects of the
FCC, the ARS and CB will always be generally ignored -regardless- of
who sits in the big chair.


In fact, Riley has written the FCC considers many of these
complainants a pain-in-the-ass..he didn't come out and say those exact
words,

Well what exactly did he say? I'm sure others would like to read the
comments for themselves and make their own determination. I know I would. I
have been to some Hamfests where he was a guest speaker, and I don't get the
impression that you got.

but DID say these type hammies (Oxendine) are often worse than
the offenders themselves. An incredible statement from the head
enforcement officer at the FCC.

And just what "type" is that? I'm not an apologist for Jerry but I see his
point. If he has to be a thorn in the FCC's Butt, so be it. I have yet to
see any government agency that didn't perform better if wasn't for some
citizen getting on their case about doing the job they are being paid to do.


Jerry has chosen a course of action. I may not agree that it's the
-best- course of action, but then I'm not a ham and don't see things
from his perspective. I -am- a CBer, and IMO you can stick a much
bigger thorn in the FCC's ass if you pester your congressional rep. It
still won't get anything accomplished, but at least you're forcing the
FCC to answer to someone with some authority.







----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

"Frank Gilliland" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:15:29 -0500, "Leland C. Scott"
wrote in :


"Twistedhed" wrote in message
...

But you MUST consider the probability factor. What you propose is
deviation from the norm concerning the FCC.

Not really. Take a look at the other enforcement actions for such things
as
tower height and lighting etc.


Enforcement is but a shadow of what it once was. Back in the early
'60s the FCC would yank your CB license and/or slap you with a fine
just for violating the time-out rule, and they popped hoardes of CBers
for that and many other minor violations.

Looking at the enforcement efforts of the FCC for the past several
years there are two trends that become apparent: the number of FCC
enforcement actions have been steadily declining, and the fines have
been steadily increasing.

That I have heard mentioned before with the addtional comment being that
this is the case due to lack of funds. That could explaine why the fines
have been going up I suppose.

You might also notice that lately the FCC
rarely fines any person or company an amount that's beyond their means
to pay. It should be glaringly obvious that the primary focus of the
FCC is on the money, not on the enforcement. I wouldn't be suprised if
the FCC performs financial background checks before issuing NALs.

If you read the enforcement logs you'll see where they say you have to
supply them with a copy of your tax return if you claim you can't pay the
fine.

The
FCC could do far more to enforce the regulations than their occasional
shakedown tour in the vice district.

Agreed.




You have a better chance of
hitting the lotto. Not going to happen. You are discounting the monetary
factor, here. I believe you are missing the monetary picture here of why
the huge companies stay in business year after year when only the
littles ones are closed and put out of business.

The FCC's aim is not to put anybody out of business, but to bring them in
to
compliance with FCC regulations.


Think about it: a federal agency with the power to execute searches
without a warrant,

Big deal. If you read the terms of the license grant from the FCC the
licensee agrees to station inspections, i.e. without a warrant, so the
licensee doesn't have a bone to pick. They knew the rules of the game before
hand.

impose penalties without due process,

Oh, there is due process. If you don't like the fine then you can go to
court. Not much different when you get popped for speeding. Don't like the
ticket then talk to the judge.

and make up
their own rules as they go;

The rules are clearly spelled out in CFR 47.

yet the violations continue unabated. And
the only benefits from their actions are seen by the Treasury Dept.

The problems don't seem to be limited to just the FCC regulations. For
example look at your speedometer the next time you're out driving, the
posted speed limits, and the other drivers on the road. Seems like more cops
on the road doesn't deter many from doing 80+ MPH on the expressways.



Cite a single case involving the FCC tossing a white collar exec in jail
for a similar charge.

I don't have any at my finger tips, but that doesn't mean that there
aren't
any. And if by chance there are non there is always a first time. As they
say with investing "past performance is no indication of future returns",
in
other words they, the FCC, could do so at their discretion.


They won't. If they did there would be constitutional challenges to
their rules and the FCC would probably lose

I doubt it. When they have the violator on audio tape with signal strenght
readings, frequency counter readings, spectrum analyzer screen shots etc,
when they go to court they're cooked. Besides, were in the constitution does
it say that a citizen has the right to use a radio transmitter, much less in
any maner they choose? If it isn't there then there is no constitutional
right to challenge.

-- at the very least it
would be a costly trial.

For the violator it sure is. Unless you're a big corporation a private
person doesn't stand much of a chance when the FCC has the wealth of the
Federal Treasury behind it to spend on legal proceddings. I can asure you
their legal budget is bigger that your's or mine.

That's also why the fines are never enough to
incite any legal challenge in the courts,

It's not always about the money. I have read where some have gone to court
just over the principle of the mater. The money wasn't the main
consideration for them.

or to people and companies
that do not have the financial resources to mount such a challenge.

And that's a shame too. It's not just the FCC that does this. How many
people have gotten screwed over because they don't have the money to stand
up for their rights in court? Too many.



Nothing, 'cause the radios aren't being dumped.

I was referring to lost profits from removing the product line from their
travel centers.

Your position is based upon suppositions, the "if" factor, and the
assumption the FCC is changing the manner in whcih they operate, as
opposed to reality,,..business-as-usual within the FCC and minimal
enforcement.

I remember comments being offered up a year or two ago along the line
that
the FCC wasn't going to do anything about 10m intruders. Looks like they
are
doing something now.


A token effort, just enough to keep the hammies thinking that they
aren't being ignored.

There are only around 750K licensed Hams in the USA. I would suppose only a
fraction of them are making complaints to the FCC. The FCC could as well
just ignore the complaints all together. The fact that they're not doing so
would suggest the enforcement action isn't simply to placate those
complaining, but a genuine effort at enforcement action as limited as it is
currently.



Assuming that the FCC won't get more aggressive in the
future is not being smart. All it takes is a change in the leadership of
the
FCC. Imagine if a new FCC chairmen is appointed, and is a Ham with an ax
to
grind about the present situation?


The chairman has very little power to change the workings of the FCC.

The chairmen sets the tone for the whole agency. The commissioners take
their cue from him.

It is the commission as a whole that has the power in that agency, and
therefore it is controlled by whomever controls the commissioners.

Yeah, the chairmen, like I said.

Since there is so much corporate interest in the other aspects of the
FCC, the ARS and CB will always be generally ignored -regardless- of
who sits in the big chair.

It's well documented that the current chairmen has an agenda that seems to
be mainly fueled by corporate money being offered for valuable spectrum and
that dang BPL crap.



In fact, Riley has written the FCC considers many of these
complainants a pain-in-the-ass..he didn't come out and say those exact
words,

Well what exactly did he say? I'm sure others would like to read the
comments for themselves and make their own determination. I know I would.
I
have been to some Hamfests where he was a guest speaker, and I don't get
the
impression that you got.

but DID say these type hammies (Oxendine) are often worse than
the offenders themselves. An incredible statement from the head
enforcement officer at the FCC.

And just what "type" is that? I'm not an apologist for Jerry but I see
his
point. If he has to be a thorn in the FCC's Butt, so be it. I have yet to
see any government agency that didn't perform better if wasn't for some
citizen getting on their case about doing the job they are being paid to
do.


Jerry has chosen a course of action. I may not agree that it's the
-best- course of action, but then I'm not a ham and don't see things
from his perspective.

Give it a few minutes of thought then. The worst that can happen is you may
even agree with him on some points. 8-))

I -am- a CBer, and IMO you can stick a much
bigger thorn in the FCC's ass if you pester your congressional rep.

It happens.

It
still won't get anything accomplished, but at least you're forcing the
FCC to answer to someone with some authority.

Why do you think some of what is happening is happening? Maybe not enough to
suit some people, but some progress is being made.


--
Leland C. Scott
KC8LDO

Wireless Network
Mobile computing
on the go brought
to you by Micro$oft

"Leland C. Scott" wrote in message
news

"Frank Gilliland" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:15:29 -0500, "Leland C. Scott"
wrote in :


"Twistedhed" wrote in message
...

But you MUST consider the probability factor. What you propose is
deviation from the norm concerning the FCC.

Not really. Take a look at the other enforcement actions for such things
as
tower height and lighting etc.


Enforcement is but a shadow of what it once was. Back in the early
'60s the FCC would yank your CB license and/or slap you with a fine
just for violating the time-out rule, and they popped hoardes of CBers
for that and many other minor violations.

Looking at the enforcement efforts of the FCC for the past several
years there are two trends that become apparent: the number of FCC
enforcement actions have been steadily declining, and the fines have
been steadily increasing.

That I have heard mentioned before with the addtional comment being that
this is the case due to lack of funds. That could explaine why the fines
have been going up I suppose.

You might also notice that lately the FCC
rarely fines any person or company an amount that's beyond their means
to pay. It should be glaringly obvious that the primary focus of the
FCC is on the money, not on the enforcement. I wouldn't be suprised if
the FCC performs financial background checks before issuing NALs.

If you read the enforcement logs you'll see where they say you have to
supply them with a copy of your tax return if you claim you can't pay the
fine.

The
FCC could do far more to enforce the regulations than their occasional
shakedown tour in the vice district.

Agreed.




You have a better chance of
hitting the lotto. Not going to happen. You are discounting the
monetary
factor, here. I believe you are missing the monetary picture here of
why
the huge companies stay in business year after year when only the
littles ones are closed and put out of business.

The FCC's aim is not to put anybody out of business, but to bring them
in
to
compliance with FCC regulations.


Think about it: a federal agency with the power to execute searches
without a warrant,

Big deal. If you read the terms of the license grant from the FCC the
licensee agrees to station inspections, i.e. without a warrant, so the
licensee doesn't have a bone to pick. They knew the rules of the game
before
hand.

impose penalties without due process,

Oh, there is due process. If you don't like the fine then you can go to
court. Not much different when you get popped for speeding. Don't like the
ticket then talk to the judge.

and make up
their own rules as they go;

The rules are clearly spelled out in CFR 47.

yet the violations continue unabated. And
the only benefits from their actions are seen by the Treasury Dept.

The problems don't seem to be limited to just the FCC regulations. For
example look at your speedometer the next time you're out driving, the
posted speed limits, and the other drivers on the road. Seems like more
cops
on the road doesn't deter many from doing 80+ MPH on the expressways.



Cite a single case involving the FCC tossing a white collar exec in
jail
for a similar charge.

I don't have any at my finger tips, but that doesn't mean that there
aren't
any. And if by chance there are non there is always a first time. As
they
say with investing "past performance is no indication of future
returns",
in
other words they, the FCC, could do so at their discretion.


They won't. If they did there would be constitutional challenges to
their rules and the FCC would probably lose

I doubt it. When they have the violator on audio tape with signal strenght
readings, frequency counter readings, spectrum analyzer screen shots etc,
when they go to court they're cooked. Besides, were in the constitution
does
it say that a citizen has the right to use a radio transmitter, much less
in
any maner they choose? If it isn't there then there is no constitutional
right to challenge.

-- at the very least it
would be a costly trial.

For the violator it sure is. Unless you're a big corporation a private
person doesn't stand much of a chance when the FCC has the wealth of the
Federal Treasury behind it to spend on legal proceddings. I can asure you
their legal budget is bigger that your's or mine.

That's also why the fines are never enough to
incite any legal challenge in the courts,

It's not always about the money. I have read where some have gone to court
just over the principle of the mater. The money wasn't the main
consideration for them.

or to people and companies
that do not have the financial resources to mount such a challenge.

And that's a shame too. It's not just the FCC that does this. How many
people have gotten screwed over because they don't have the money to stand
up for their rights in court? Too many.



Nothing, 'cause the radios aren't being dumped.

I was referring to lost profits from removing the product line from
their
travel centers.

Your position is based upon suppositions, the "if" factor, and the
assumption the FCC is changing the manner in whcih they operate, as
opposed to reality,,..business-as-usual within the FCC and minimal
enforcement.

I remember comments being offered up a year or two ago along the line
that
the FCC wasn't going to do anything about 10m intruders. Looks like they
are
doing something now.


A token effort, just enough to keep the hammies thinking that they
aren't being ignored.

There are only around 750K licensed Hams in the USA. I would suppose only
a
fraction of them are making complaints to the FCC. The FCC could as well
just ignore the complaints all together. The fact that they're not doing
so
would suggest the enforcement action isn't simply to placate those
complaining, but a genuine effort at enforcement action as limited as it
is
currently.



Assuming that the FCC won't get more aggressive in the
future is not being smart. All it takes is a change in the leadership of
the
FCC. Imagine if a new FCC chairmen is appointed, and is a Ham with an ax
to
grind about the present situation?


The chairman has very little power to change the workings of the FCC.

The chairmen sets the tone for the whole agency. The commissioners take
their cue from him.

It is the commission as a whole that has the power in that agency, and
therefore it is controlled by whomever controls the commissioners.

Yeah, the chairmen, like I said.

Since there is so much corporate interest in the other aspects of the
FCC, the ARS and CB will always be generally ignored -regardless- of
who sits in the big chair.

It's well documented that the current chairmen has an agenda that seems to
be mainly fueled by corporate money being offered for valuable spectrum
and
that dang BPL crap.



In fact, Riley has written the FCC considers many of these
complainants a pain-in-the-ass..he didn't come out and say those exact
words,

Well what exactly did he say? I'm sure others would like to read the
comments for themselves and make their own determination. I know I
would.
I
have been to some Hamfests where he was a guest speaker, and I don't get
the
impression that you got.

but DID say these type hammies (Oxendine) are often worse than
the offenders themselves. An incredible statement from the head
enforcement officer at the FCC.

And just what "type" is that? I'm not an apologist for Jerry but I see
his
point. If he has to be a thorn in the FCC's Butt, so be it. I have yet
to
see any government agency that didn't perform better if wasn't for some
citizen getting on their case about doing the job they are being paid to
do.


Jerry has chosen a course of action. I may not agree that it's the
-best- course of action, but then I'm not a ham and don't see things
from his perspective.

Give it a few minutes of thought then. The worst that can happen is you
may
even agree with him on some points. 8-))

I -am- a CBer, and IMO you can stick a much
bigger thorn in the FCC's ass if you pester your congressional rep.

It happens.

It
still won't get anything accomplished, but at least you're forcing the
FCC to answer to someone with some authority.

Why do you think some of what is happening is happening? Maybe not enough
to
suit some people, but some progress is being made.

Yes, you and your sock puppies are not happy. Create a few more, and just
maybe something will go your way. Hello Legeo.

"Leland C. Scott" wrote in message
news |
|| There are only around 750K licensed Hams in the USA.

this isnrt towards anyone ..jus a musing on my part....
""750K licensed Hams in the USA.""
and thats how hams keep the fcc reminded there are individuals out here
using radios. if it wernt for that reminder , where do ya'll think the freqs
would be? a no-mans land used by every industrial use imaginable controlled
by who ever was highest bidder for the spectrum.
i wonder how many cb'ers are out there?
we'll never know how to count them with out things such as licensing...
oops,guess they took care of that huh?
harv

"harvey" wrote in message
...

"Leland C. Scott" wrote in message
news |
|| There are only around 750K licensed Hams in the USA.

this isnrt towards anyone ..jus a musing on my part....
""750K licensed Hams in the USA.""
and thats how hams keep the fcc reminded there are individuals out here
using radios. if it wernt for that reminder , where do ya'll think the
freqs
would be? a no-mans land used by every industrial use imaginable
controlled
by who ever was highest bidder for the spectrum.
i wonder how many cb'ers are out there?
we'll never know how to count them with out things such as licensing...
oops,guess they took care of that huh?
harv

Yeah. No argument there.

--
Leland C. Scott
KC8LDO

Wireless Network
Mobile computing
on the go brought
to you by Micro$oft

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 00:12:08 -0500, "Leland C. Scott"
wrote in :


"Frank Gilliland" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 17:15:29 -0500, "Leland C. Scott"
wrote in :


"Twistedhed" wrote in message
...

But you MUST consider the probability factor. What you propose is
deviation from the norm concerning the FCC.

Not really. Take a look at the other enforcement actions for such things
as
tower height and lighting etc.


Enforcement is but a shadow of what it once was. Back in the early
'60s the FCC would yank your CB license and/or slap you with a fine
just for violating the time-out rule, and they popped hoardes of CBers
for that and many other minor violations.

Looking at the enforcement efforts of the FCC for the past several
years there are two trends that become apparent: the number of FCC
enforcement actions have been steadily declining, and the fines have
been steadily increasing.

That I have heard mentioned before with the addtional comment being that
this is the case due to lack of funds. That could explaine why the fines
have been going up I suppose.


Name one federal agency that doesn't claim to suffer from a lack of
funding.


snip
The FCC's aim is not to put anybody out of business, but to bring them in
to
compliance with FCC regulations.


Think about it: a federal agency with the power to execute searches
without a warrant,

Big deal. If you read the terms of the license grant from the FCC the
licensee agrees to station inspections, i.e. without a warrant, so the
licensee doesn't have a bone to pick. They knew the rules of the game before
hand.


I have used that argument myself but I have since found out that it
doesn't wash: Many CBers -don't- know the rules. And while any person
can refuse a station inspection, most CBers (and many hams) are not
aware that such a refusal can be used as 'evidence' against him, and
is therefore a violation of the 5th amendment.


impose penalties without due process,

Oh, there is due process. If you don't like the fine then you can go to
court. Not much different when you get popped for speeding. Don't like the
ticket then talk to the judge.


Wrong. You can't challenge the violation in court like you can a
traffic ticket. FCC fines are enforced by the Treasury Dept as
uncollected debts, -not- as violations of FCC rules.


and make up
their own rules as they go;

The rules are clearly spelled out in CFR 47.


What I meant was that the FCC has the power to write their own rules
under the CFR to enforce the USC as they see fit. Since the power of
the FCC is not balanced by a watchdog agency, and because their rules
are written and enforced in a manner that prevents any constitutional
challenges, they are effectively a rogue agency.


yet the violations continue unabated. And
the only benefits from their actions are seen by the Treasury Dept.

The problems don't seem to be limited to just the FCC regulations. For
example look at your speedometer the next time you're out driving, the
posted speed limits, and the other drivers on the road. Seems like more cops
on the road doesn't deter many from doing 80+ MPH on the expressways.


Wrong. Notice what happens when a cop is on the road -- everyone slows
down. Spokane is a classic example of what happens when there are too
few cops to enforce the law. Driving in this town is nothing short of
treacherous. You can drive all day and not see a cop. I've been hit 16
times in as many years, three times while my car/truck was parked on
the street in front of my house, and just recently my GARAGE was hit.
I was even rear-ended once by an ambulance! Why? Because there aren't
enough police to enforce the law so people ignore them and drive any
way they want.

On the other side of the coin, I went to Bellingham a couple years ago
and WOW what a difference! Cops were highly visible, almost everybody
drove -under- the speed limit, and I didn't see anybody driving like
they were drunk (common in Spokane).

Police presence DOES make a difference.


Cite a single case involving the FCC tossing a white collar exec in jail
for a similar charge.

I don't have any at my finger tips, but that doesn't mean that there
aren't
any. And if by chance there are non there is always a first time. As they
say with investing "past performance is no indication of future returns",
in
other words they, the FCC, could do so at their discretion.


They won't. If they did there would be constitutional challenges to
their rules and the FCC would probably lose

I doubt it. When they have the violator on audio tape


That's a constitutional violation in and of itself.


with signal strenght
readings, frequency counter readings, spectrum analyzer screen shots etc,
when they go to court they're cooked. Besides, were in the constitution does
it say that a citizen has the right to use a radio transmitter, much less in
any maner they choose?


The issue is not about a person's right to use a radio transmitter,
but about the protections of the accused that are -supposed- to be
guaranteed by the constitution. Like, 'innocent until proven guilty in
a court of law'. Last time I checked the FCC is not a part of the
judicial branch. They can accuse but they CANNOT determine guilt.
That's why their citations are notifications of APPARENT liability.

If someone uses a radio transmitter in violation of the law then by
all means they should be held accountable. But the -means- by which
that person is brought to justice by the FCC is unconstitutional and
they know it.


If it isn't there then there is no constitutional
right to challenge.


EVERY person has the constitutional right to challenge ANY law. The
problem is that the FCC has been very careful about preventing any
such challenges.


-- at the very least it
would be a costly trial.

For the violator it sure is. Unless you're a big corporation a private
person doesn't stand much of a chance when the FCC has the wealth of the
Federal Treasury behind it to spend on legal proceddings. I can asure you
their legal budget is bigger that your's or mine.


Exactly! And that's why any fine against a large company by the FCC
will never be large enough to justify any such challenge -- they will
simply write it off as an expense, just like Twisty explained.


That's also why the fines are never enough to
incite any legal challenge in the courts,

It's not always about the money. I have read where some have gone to court
just over the principle of the mater. The money wasn't the main
consideration for them.


And those cases are usually settled out-of-court before they reach the
Supreme Court. Everyone has a price.


or to people and companies
that do not have the financial resources to mount such a challenge.

And that's a shame too. It's not just the FCC that does this. How many
people have gotten screwed over because they don't have the money to stand
up for their rights in court? Too many.


You are absolutely correct. Justice is for the rich.


snip
the FCC wasn't going to do anything about 10m intruders. Looks like they
are
doing something now.


A token effort, just enough to keep the hammies thinking that they
aren't being ignored.

There are only around 750K licensed Hams in the USA. I would suppose only a
fraction of them are making complaints to the FCC. The FCC could as well
just ignore the complaints all together. The fact that they're not doing so
would suggest the enforcement action isn't simply to placate those
complaining, but a genuine effort at enforcement action as limited as it is
currently.


750K is a significant number of people, and if the FCC dropped
enforcement of the ham bands there would be an equally significant
backlash. Not just because of the numbers, but also because those
people have a license -- a 'contract' with the government -- to use
those bands. If the FCC welches on 750K contracts you can bet that
there would be hell to pay.


Assuming that the FCC won't get more aggressive in the
future is not being smart. All it takes is a change in the leadership of
the
FCC. Imagine if a new FCC chairmen is appointed, and is a Ham with an ax
to
grind about the present situation?


The chairman has very little power to change the workings of the FCC.

The chairmen sets the tone for the whole agency. The commissioners take
their cue from him.


Here's the link to Part 0 (Commission Organization):

http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/w...47cfr0_02.html

Where in there does it say anything even remotely close to what you
describe as the role of the chairman?


It is the commission as a whole that has the power in that agency, and
therefore it is controlled by whomever controls the commissioners.

Yeah, the chairmen, like I said.


If you read through the relevent sections of Part 0 (linked above) you
will see that the chairman is nothing more than a representative and a
facilitator. He is -not- the controlling force of the FCC. If he was
then it wouldn't be called a "commission".


Since there is so much corporate interest in the other aspects of the
FCC, the ARS and CB will always be generally ignored -regardless- of
who sits in the big chair.

It's well documented that the current chairmen has an agenda that seems to
be mainly fueled by corporate money being offered for valuable spectrum and
that dang BPL crap.


That's been true of the whole commission, and it's been true for many,
many years. As for the BPL issue, don't put the cart before the horse:
wait to see just how much of a problem it causes -in fact-, and if
it's enough of a problem that makes 750K hams feel the FCC is ignoring
their 'contracts' then you will probably see some corrective actions
by the FCC.


snip
Jerry has chosen a course of action. I may not agree that it's the
-best- course of action, but then I'm not a ham and don't see things
from his perspective.

Give it a few minutes of thought then. The worst that can happen is you may
even agree with him on some points. 8-))


You missed -my- point: ham radio is none of my business.


I -am- a CBer, and IMO you can stick a much
bigger thorn in the FCC's ass if you pester your congressional rep.

It happens.


Evidently it doesn't happen enough.


It
still won't get anything accomplished, but at least you're forcing the
FCC to answer to someone with some authority.

Why do you think some of what is happening is happening? Maybe not enough to
suit some people, but some progress is being made.


All I see happening is the ARRL taking a step forward after being
pushed back three steps. That's not progress, it's damage control.







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