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  #11   Report Post  
Old March 14th 04, 07:38 AM
Joe O'Connell
 
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Why is it that the "best operators" are found at home complaining
rather than on the expedition doing what they complain the other guys are
not doing?
Joe



  #12   Report Post  
Old March 14th 04, 08:53 AM
Zoran Brlecic
 
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Peter Dougherty wrote:

I respectfully disagree with that entire premise. There are many
DXpeditions I've worked whose operations have been terrible.



You're making some huge assumptions in your posts:

That every dx-pedition's goal is to work everyone on Earth who calls
them and even those who don't.

That in order to mount a dx-ped, all the ops must be top notch dx-ers,
must speak English with a Brooklyn accent and must be familiar with the
FCC approved US band plan (the so-called "target areas" you called it).

That in order to "give a new one to as many hams as possible", the
operation must be able to provide S9+ signal into all areas of the World
by using the most sophisticated antenna systems and amps available.

That your perusing the DX Cluster and subsequent calling of the DX-ped,
whether successful or not, counts as "investing substantial time and
effort" and that anyone should care about that.

That anyone should give a rat's ass about anyone else's frustrations
about not being able to take a "crack" at the dx-ped.



There are two phenomena that drastically changed dxing for the worse.
One is the worst thing that ever happened to ham radio, the DX Cluster
which just about killed off the art of chasing dx and turned it into a
McDX Happy Meal where any idiot with basic reading skills is able to
join the bloody fray at the touch of a button. The other is the
inevitable robot style "you're 59, QRZ?" type of operation that has
become the norm nowadays (spot me on the Cluster, gov'ner, 59, eh, nudge
nudge, wink wink, say no more, say no more?) due to the realization that
money can be made on thousands of QSLs - it's the economy, stupid.

So now that dxing has been dumbed down, you're arguing for the game to
be watered down even further by insisting on nothing but English
speaking operators with years of dxing experience and operating skills
and with unlimited resources, so that a given dx-ped can be worked at
will by everyone on every band, in every mode with nothing less than an
S9+ signal???

You want fries with that?


73 ... WA7AA





--

Anti-spam measu look me up on qrz.com if you need to reply directly

  #13   Report Post  
Old March 14th 04, 08:53 AM
Zoran Brlecic
 
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Peter Dougherty wrote:

I respectfully disagree with that entire premise. There are many
DXpeditions I've worked whose operations have been terrible.



You're making some huge assumptions in your posts:

That every dx-pedition's goal is to work everyone on Earth who calls
them and even those who don't.

That in order to mount a dx-ped, all the ops must be top notch dx-ers,
must speak English with a Brooklyn accent and must be familiar with the
FCC approved US band plan (the so-called "target areas" you called it).

That in order to "give a new one to as many hams as possible", the
operation must be able to provide S9+ signal into all areas of the World
by using the most sophisticated antenna systems and amps available.

That your perusing the DX Cluster and subsequent calling of the DX-ped,
whether successful or not, counts as "investing substantial time and
effort" and that anyone should care about that.

That anyone should give a rat's ass about anyone else's frustrations
about not being able to take a "crack" at the dx-ped.



There are two phenomena that drastically changed dxing for the worse.
One is the worst thing that ever happened to ham radio, the DX Cluster
which just about killed off the art of chasing dx and turned it into a
McDX Happy Meal where any idiot with basic reading skills is able to
join the bloody fray at the touch of a button. The other is the
inevitable robot style "you're 59, QRZ?" type of operation that has
become the norm nowadays (spot me on the Cluster, gov'ner, 59, eh, nudge
nudge, wink wink, say no more, say no more?) due to the realization that
money can be made on thousands of QSLs - it's the economy, stupid.

So now that dxing has been dumbed down, you're arguing for the game to
be watered down even further by insisting on nothing but English
speaking operators with years of dxing experience and operating skills
and with unlimited resources, so that a given dx-ped can be worked at
will by everyone on every band, in every mode with nothing less than an
S9+ signal???

You want fries with that?


73 ... WA7AA





--

Anti-spam measu look me up on qrz.com if you need to reply directly

  #14   Report Post  
Old March 14th 04, 02:51 PM
Incognito
 
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Ah DX IS

I would say that 90% of the DXpeditions of late have been well run by good
to excellent operators. About the same as 20 to 30 years ago.

As far as packet clusters now a days dumbing down the DX world -- well
before the clusters there were DX repeaters, local DX simplex freq spots,
one ringers, LL calls and DX news bulletins. Only difference is now everyone
gets the scoop for free.

You don't get to honor roll by DX cluster spots only -- as those who have
done it well know.

Ya still gotta work em which we little guns know may take a LONG time and
some real DXing skills.

As far as the newbies (and oldies) calling over the DX or ignoring directive
calls -- not much has changed there either -- same o same o. Recently I read
a 30 year old DX club news letter complaining about the same procedures,
lids, etc

And it's the DXpeditions show. If they want to operate simplex, split, or
work their home country first -- well they are calling the shots.

There are plenty of resources on the web and publications on how to work DX
and how to run a DXpedition. So ignorance reigns as it has since the
beginning of DXCC.

This entire thread could have been posted 30 years ago.

Get over it and develop the skills that will net you that contact.

--
Incognito By Necessity (:-(

If you can't convince them, confuse them.
- - -Harry S Truman



  #15   Report Post  
Old March 14th 04, 02:51 PM
Incognito
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Ah DX IS

I would say that 90% of the DXpeditions of late have been well run by good
to excellent operators. About the same as 20 to 30 years ago.

As far as packet clusters now a days dumbing down the DX world -- well
before the clusters there were DX repeaters, local DX simplex freq spots,
one ringers, LL calls and DX news bulletins. Only difference is now everyone
gets the scoop for free.

You don't get to honor roll by DX cluster spots only -- as those who have
done it well know.

Ya still gotta work em which we little guns know may take a LONG time and
some real DXing skills.

As far as the newbies (and oldies) calling over the DX or ignoring directive
calls -- not much has changed there either -- same o same o. Recently I read
a 30 year old DX club news letter complaining about the same procedures,
lids, etc

And it's the DXpeditions show. If they want to operate simplex, split, or
work their home country first -- well they are calling the shots.

There are plenty of resources on the web and publications on how to work DX
and how to run a DXpedition. So ignorance reigns as it has since the
beginning of DXCC.

This entire thread could have been posted 30 years ago.

Get over it and develop the skills that will net you that contact.

--
Incognito By Necessity (:-(

If you can't convince them, confuse them.
- - -Harry S Truman





  #16   Report Post  
Old March 14th 04, 03:28 PM
Doug Smith W9WI
 
Posts: n/a
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Peter Dougherty wrote:
* No enough power/ERP to be heard in their target areas
* No firm understanding of propagation
* Trying to work a killer pileup simplex
* Trying to work a killer pileup only up 5 (SSB), not over a range
* Inexperienced operators (or downright LIDS in one case last year)
* Not working by continents or "by the numbers" when things are bad
* Or, if they do, taking calls from stations calling "out of turn"
* Frequently not QSX on 40M SSB for the USA.
* Not QSX in the US General portion of the bands once in a while.
* Poor planning or logistics.


Rare ones are rare for good reason.

Sure, it'd be nice if every rare one was activated by a team of skilled
operators with plenty of equipment. Sometimes, for reasons beyond the
control of the ham community, that's not possible. I remember plenty of
grumbling about TO4E's weird operating schedule -- as it turns out, any
other schedule would have prevented the expedition altogether.

My grand total of DXpedition experience consists of a few QSOs on 2
meters while mobile in Canada. If the Indian government were to invite
me to bring my old TS-680 and a Windom to VU4, should I turn them down?


--
Doug Smith W9WI
Pleasant View (Nashville), TN EM66
http://www.w9wi.com

  #17   Report Post  
Old March 14th 04, 03:28 PM
Doug Smith W9WI
 
Posts: n/a
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Peter Dougherty wrote:
* No enough power/ERP to be heard in their target areas
* No firm understanding of propagation
* Trying to work a killer pileup simplex
* Trying to work a killer pileup only up 5 (SSB), not over a range
* Inexperienced operators (or downright LIDS in one case last year)
* Not working by continents or "by the numbers" when things are bad
* Or, if they do, taking calls from stations calling "out of turn"
* Frequently not QSX on 40M SSB for the USA.
* Not QSX in the US General portion of the bands once in a while.
* Poor planning or logistics.


Rare ones are rare for good reason.

Sure, it'd be nice if every rare one was activated by a team of skilled
operators with plenty of equipment. Sometimes, for reasons beyond the
control of the ham community, that's not possible. I remember plenty of
grumbling about TO4E's weird operating schedule -- as it turns out, any
other schedule would have prevented the expedition altogether.

My grand total of DXpedition experience consists of a few QSOs on 2
meters while mobile in Canada. If the Indian government were to invite
me to bring my old TS-680 and a Windom to VU4, should I turn them down?


--
Doug Smith W9WI
Pleasant View (Nashville), TN EM66
http://www.w9wi.com

  #18   Report Post  
Old March 14th 04, 04:26 PM
Peter Lemken
 
Posts: n/a
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Doug Smith W9WI wrote:

My grand total of DXpedition experience consists of a few QSOs on 2
meters while mobile in Canada. If the Indian government were to invite
me to bring my old TS-680 and a Windom to VU4, should I turn them down?


No. But would you turn down spending a couple of hours playing with PED
before that?

What's been left out of this whole discussion is the aspect of *FUN*.
Everybody wants to have some fun either working the DX or being the DX, but
it certainly is a lot more fun to have split pile ups instead of a simplex
ones. We should try to make the rare ones understand that it's really great
fun working one station after the after, completely forgetting about time
and space, ignoring bodily needs just to dig out that creepy /QRP among the
warmonging kilowatt guys, giving tiny hints for the deserving with regard to
your RX frequency (Remember that '73 de ZL9CI'?).

The elation of running a real tail-end QSO on both sides, the adrenaline
kick of having thousands of discplined JAs coming along like the pearls of a
string (each of them being equally PW), the evil grin of deliberately
ignoring the out-of-turn caller and virtually seeing his head turning red in
frustration. Hearing the top DXer working you with a single call, knowing
that he followed you for a couple of minutes and sent his call just once,
but doing so with perfect timing and precise knowledge about his own TX
frequency. Getting a feeling for propagation, noticing in awe that graylight
propagation is not some mysterious thing, but a tantalizing phenomenon that
makes your heart beat faster. The casual "tnx new one" after a quick 5nn.

It's fun, guy, sheer fun and we should to everything to make those about to
start a trip to a rare one understand the fun part of it.

Peter Lemken
DF5JT
Berlin

--
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in
a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly
used up, totally worn out and loudly proclaiming, 'Wow, what a ride!'
  #19   Report Post  
Old March 14th 04, 04:26 PM
Peter Lemken
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Doug Smith W9WI wrote:

My grand total of DXpedition experience consists of a few QSOs on 2
meters while mobile in Canada. If the Indian government were to invite
me to bring my old TS-680 and a Windom to VU4, should I turn them down?


No. But would you turn down spending a couple of hours playing with PED
before that?

What's been left out of this whole discussion is the aspect of *FUN*.
Everybody wants to have some fun either working the DX or being the DX, but
it certainly is a lot more fun to have split pile ups instead of a simplex
ones. We should try to make the rare ones understand that it's really great
fun working one station after the after, completely forgetting about time
and space, ignoring bodily needs just to dig out that creepy /QRP among the
warmonging kilowatt guys, giving tiny hints for the deserving with regard to
your RX frequency (Remember that '73 de ZL9CI'?).

The elation of running a real tail-end QSO on both sides, the adrenaline
kick of having thousands of discplined JAs coming along like the pearls of a
string (each of them being equally PW), the evil grin of deliberately
ignoring the out-of-turn caller and virtually seeing his head turning red in
frustration. Hearing the top DXer working you with a single call, knowing
that he followed you for a couple of minutes and sent his call just once,
but doing so with perfect timing and precise knowledge about his own TX
frequency. Getting a feeling for propagation, noticing in awe that graylight
propagation is not some mysterious thing, but a tantalizing phenomenon that
makes your heart beat faster. The casual "tnx new one" after a quick 5nn.

It's fun, guy, sheer fun and we should to everything to make those about to
start a trip to a rare one understand the fun part of it.

Peter Lemken
DF5JT
Berlin

--
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in
a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly
used up, totally worn out and loudly proclaiming, 'Wow, what a ride!'
  #20   Report Post  
Old March 14th 04, 05:09 PM
Peter Dougherty
 
Posts: n/a
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Zoran Brlecic said :

You're making some huge assumptions in your posts:


I'll state again in advance. These comments apply to DXpeditions of
teams of operators to rare and very rare "most wanted" entities, not
to a couple of guys going on holiday with 100W and wires who want to
have some fun on the radio between bouts of excess partying and
golfing, etc.

That every dx-pedition's goal is to work everyone on Earth who calls
them and even those who don't.


I would venture to guess that if you have 10 or 15 members who put up
a few thousand dollars/euros/zlotys/rand/pesos/etc, give months of
their time to logistics and planning, going away on such a trip, etc,
that their goals are either to give that entity to as many hams as
want it on as many bands as possible or for a more targeted goal, such
as a focus on the low bands or WARC bands, focusing on digital modes,
focusing on satellite and 6 metres, etc. More often than not these
goals are on the team's Web site. You'll never hear a complaint from
me if a station's goals are to concentrate on EU low bands, since I
only operate casually on 40 and 80 (no space for a 160 antenna) and
I'm not in the EU.

However, when there are no stated objectives, or the stated objective
is to work as many stations as possible worldwide and they operate in
ways that belie that statement, I think it's fair to hold some degree
of criticism. Conversely, if you were in the EU and an operation
stated its goal was to work as many EU stations as possible, yet they
sat and worked only strong W/VEs all day and night long, you'd have a
valid complaint.

That in order to mount a dx-ped, all the ops must be top notch dx-ers


Yes, it's my belief that this *should* be one of the criteria for
inclusion in a DXpedition to a rare "most-wanted" entity. I'm not
saying everyone should be #1 on the Honor Roll, but they should be
experienced and savvy in the ways of DX, know what to listen for, know
how to control a pileup, etc. This, to my mind, is the single most
important aspect of the exercise. I'd rather an operation have 10
top-notch operators with 100W and wires than ten clueless but
well-intentioned newbies with a kW and yagis.

It's the job of the team organizer to invite along the most qualified
people he or she can find.

must speak English with a Brooklyn accent


Heavens, no! I want to understand them!! Besides, I live in Queens...I
hear enough of that every day, thanks very much.

In all seriousness, though, you are taking my positions on each of
these aspects and applying the most extreme reply. Maybe it's a Usenet
thing, I don't know. My thought is that each operator should be
conversant in the language that will be used primarily in the
operation.

If the operation is from Spain, with the goal of working as many
Spanish-speaking stations worldwide as possible, it would be insane to
bring along a team of Brits who can speak a few phrase book sentences.

To be honest, in my mind a good operation has operators from all over
the world, or at least operators who (between them) are conversant in
a few major languages -- English, Japanese, French and Spanish being
the most often heard. The reality is, however, that English is more
often than not the default language of operation, and, for variou$
rea$on$, the focus is often on the U$A, therefore, it should be
obvious that a team should be able to think in English and speak it
with reasonable clarity.

and must be familiar with the
FCC approved US band plan (the so-called "target areas" you called it).


Again, yes, they should if their goals include North America. All of
the major world-class operations do this -- it's called planning. Is
it too much trouble to ask somebody who's going to travel halfway
around the world to study their targets a little? To understand that
we can't use SSB below 7150, or that there are huge numbers of
operators who can't legally transmit in SSB below 14.225 and 21.300
(who would just LOVE to send a Q$L afterward)?

This is what differentiates a top-notch operation from a second-rate
or third-rate operation. I don't think the leaders of these operations
are deliberately trying to cheese-off the Americans (though in this
geo-political climate, who knows). I think it's more a case of
inexperienced DXpeditioners from EU or other entities who are very
well-meaning but not knowledgeable enough to do things well.

That in order to "give a new one to as many hams as possible", the
operation must be able to provide S9+ signal into all areas of the World


Please quote back to me, from my previous posts, where I said anything
about S9+ signals. Yes, if you're going to run a pileup of 50,000+
hams for 2 weeks, you should consider being LOUD if at all possible.

by using the most sophisticated antenna systems and amps available.

Heck, a couple of old 4 element mono-banders or tribanders, verticals
with good radials, a nice-sized generator and 1000 or 1500 watts (or
whatever the legal limit is of the entity in question) shouldn't be
too hard to accomplish if it's a serious operation.

That your perusing the DX Cluster and subsequent calling of the DX-ped,
whether successful or not, counts as "investing substantial time and
effort" and that anyone should care about that.


Whether you care about my success is irrelevant. That I have invested
several hours over several days in finding them (whether by tuning or
cluster - yes, I use the cluster because it's a good tool in my DX
toolbox) IS an investment in time and energy, and if they do their
part, I *should* have a fair crack at getting a New One or a couple of
New Bands out of their operation.

If they do a good job and I just can't crack their pileups or I just
can't hear them, then fine--that's life. Big Deal. I couldn't hear or
work Cocos-Keeling or Christmas Island last year, neither can I hear
the V8 on now. I've seen many, many reports at the time that the VK9
operations were very well done, that many in NA got them, etc. I
didn't moan and whine that I couldn't get through because the
limitation was on my end -- either propagation between our terminals
was bad or because my equipment wasn't sufficient to hear them.
Neither situation is the fault of the operation. No poor planning, no
inexperienced operators, no pileup control issues, etc.

That anyone should give a rat's ass about anyone else's frustrations
about not being able to take a "crack" at the dx-ped.


There's the rub. That's the attitude that I find unfortunate, and one
you will never see me take towards anything. I enjoy seeing and
hearing and experiencing things that are done well, both inside and
outside of amateur radio. I like people who "do their best," be it
mounting a DXpedition, playing football or fixing toasters for a
living. Do your best at everything you do and you'll make as many
people happy as possible. The more corners you cut, the lesser will be
the enjoyment of your audience, be it a DXpedition who only gets a
marginal result, a 10th place football team or a toaster that goes
phhhhhpt after 10 minutes' operation.

It's because I have a great love for amateur radio that I make these
points here in this worldwide forum. I hope, sincerely hope, that
somebody who may be planning a DXpedition to a rare entity will take
heed of these cautions and maybe allow me -- and the hundreds of
thousands of others like me, to gain one more notch on our DX belts.
If they put up a good operation and everybody but me gets them, fine.
C'est la vie, c'est la guerre. If they do it crappily and I get
through but most others don't, it still won't be a good operation.

There are two phenomena that drastically changed dxing for the worse.
One is the worst thing that ever happened to ham radio, the DX Cluster
which just about killed off the art of chasing dx and turned it into a
McDX Happy Meal where any idiot with basic reading skills is able to
join the bloody fray at the touch of a button. The other is the
inevitable robot style "you're 59, QRZ?" type of operation that has
become the norm nowadays (spot me on the Cluster, gov'ner, 59, eh, nudge
nudge, wink wink, say no more, say no more?) due to the realization that
money can be made on thousands of QSLs - it's the economy, stupid.


I can't disagree with either of these, but no amount of kvetching will
ever put these genies back in their respective bottles. Your earlier
thoughts display to me a belief in what I call neoDarwinism on the
bands - survival of the fittest. Well, these aspects of the DX art are
Darwinism in the truest forms--the need to adapt. given this is the
current accepted operating practice, do what's necessary to make a QSO
within those accepted parameters.

So now that dxing has been dumbed down, you're arguing for the game to
be watered down even further by insisting on nothing but English
speaking operators with years of dxing experience and operating skills
and with unlimited resources, so that a given dx-ped can be worked at
will by everyone on every band, in every mode with nothing less than an
S9+ signal???


See my above points and don't take things to extreme. Or maybe that's
just your nature. I don't want to be handed anything, ever. I *DO*
want a fair chance with a deck that's not stacked, either for or
against me. I would venture most hams with average stations would be
grateful for the same chance.

You may feel differently if you're sitting in your shack looking at
your #1 Honor Roll plaque, or sitting behind the key or mic of a
mountain-top station with stacked yagis and legal-limit power.

You want fries with that?


Only if they're Québec "Patate Frites," thank you.

73 de Peter, W2IRT
(ex-AB2NZ, VE3THX)

Please reply to Double-you Two Eye Are Tee at Arrl.net


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