Zoran Brlecic said :

You're making some huge assumptions in your posts:

I'll state again in advance. These comments apply to DXpeditions of
teams of operators to rare and very rare "most wanted" entities, not
to a couple of guys going on holiday with 100W and wires who want to
have some fun on the radio between bouts of excess partying and
golfing, etc.

That every dx-pedition's goal is to work everyone on Earth who calls
them and even those who don't.

I would venture to guess that if you have 10 or 15 members who put up
a few thousand dollars/euros/zlotys/rand/pesos/etc, give months of
their time to logistics and planning, going away on such a trip, etc,
that their goals are either to give that entity to as many hams as
want it on as many bands as possible or for a more targeted goal, such
as a focus on the low bands or WARC bands, focusing on digital modes,
focusing on satellite and 6 metres, etc. More often than not these
goals are on the team's Web site. You'll never hear a complaint from
me if a station's goals are to concentrate on EU low bands, since I
only operate casually on 40 and 80 (no space for a 160 antenna) and
I'm not in the EU.

However, when there are no stated objectives, or the stated objective
is to work as many stations as possible worldwide and they operate in
ways that belie that statement, I think it's fair to hold some degree
of criticism. Conversely, if you were in the EU and an operation
stated its goal was to work as many EU stations as possible, yet they
sat and worked only strong W/VEs all day and night long, you'd have a
valid complaint.

That in order to mount a dx-ped, all the ops must be top notch dx-ers

Yes, it's my belief that this *should* be one of the criteria for
inclusion in a DXpedition to a rare "most-wanted" entity. I'm not
saying everyone should be #1 on the Honor Roll, but they should be
experienced and savvy in the ways of DX, know what to listen for, know
how to control a pileup, etc. This, to my mind, is the single most
important aspect of the exercise. I'd rather an operation have 10
top-notch operators with 100W and wires than ten clueless but
well-intentioned newbies with a kW and yagis.

It's the job of the team organizer to invite along the most qualified
people he or she can find.

must speak English with a Brooklyn accent

Heavens, no! I want to understand them!! Besides, I live in Queens...I
hear enough of that every day, thanks very much.

In all seriousness, though, you are taking my positions on each of
these aspects and applying the most extreme reply. Maybe it's a Usenet
thing, I don't know. My thought is that each operator should be
conversant in the language that will be used primarily in the
operation.

If the operation is from Spain, with the goal of working as many
Spanish-speaking stations worldwide as possible, it would be insane to
bring along a team of Brits who can speak a few phrase book sentences.

To be honest, in my mind a good operation has operators from all over
the world, or at least operators who (between them) are conversant in
a few major languages -- English, Japanese, French and Spanish being
the most often heard. The reality is, however, that English is more
often than not the default language of operation, and, for variou$
rea$on$, the focus is often on the U$A, therefore, it should be
obvious that a team should be able to think in English and speak it
with reasonable clarity.

and must be familiar with the
FCC approved US band plan (the so-called "target areas" you called it).

Again, yes, they should if their goals include North America. All of
the major world-class operations do this -- it's called planning. Is
it too much trouble to ask somebody who's going to travel halfway
around the world to study their targets a little? To understand that
we can't use SSB below 7150, or that there are huge numbers of
operators who can't legally transmit in SSB below 14.225 and 21.300
(who would just LOVE to send a Q$L afterward)?

This is what differentiates a top-notch operation from a second-rate
or third-rate operation. I don't think the leaders of these operations
are deliberately trying to cheese-off the Americans (though in this
geo-political climate, who knows). I think it's more a case of
inexperienced DXpeditioners from EU or other entities who are very
well-meaning but not knowledgeable enough to do things well.

That in order to "give a new one to as many hams as possible", the
operation must be able to provide S9+ signal into all areas of the World

Please quote back to me, from my previous posts, where I said anything
about S9+ signals. Yes, if you're going to run a pileup of 50,000+
hams for 2 weeks, you should consider being LOUD if at all possible.

by using the most sophisticated antenna systems and amps available.
Heck, a couple of old 4 element mono-banders or tribanders, verticals
with good radials, a nice-sized generator and 1000 or 1500 watts (or
whatever the legal limit is of the entity in question) shouldn't be
too hard to accomplish if it's a serious operation.

That your perusing the DX Cluster and subsequent calling of the DX-ped,
whether successful or not, counts as "investing substantial time and
effort" and that anyone should care about that.

Whether you care about my success is irrelevant. That I have invested
several hours over several days in finding them (whether by tuning or
cluster - yes, I use the cluster because it's a good tool in my DX
toolbox) IS an investment in time and energy, and if they do their
part, I *should* have a fair crack at getting a New One or a couple of
New Bands out of their operation.

If they do a good job and I just can't crack their pileups or I just
can't hear them, then fine--that's life. Big Deal. I couldn't hear or
work Cocos-Keeling or Christmas Island last year, neither can I hear
the V8 on now. I've seen many, many reports at the time that the VK9
operations were very well done, that many in NA got them, etc. I
didn't moan and whine that I couldn't get through because the
limitation was on my end -- either propagation between our terminals
was bad or because my equipment wasn't sufficient to hear them.
Neither situation is the fault of the operation. No poor planning, no
inexperienced operators, no pileup control issues, etc.

That anyone should give a rat's ass about anyone else's frustrations
about not being able to take a "crack" at the dx-ped.

There's the rub. That's the attitude that I find unfortunate, and one
you will never see me take towards anything. I enjoy seeing and
hearing and experiencing things that are done well, both inside and
outside of amateur radio. I like people who "do their best," be it
mounting a DXpedition, playing football or fixing toasters for a
living. Do your best at everything you do and you'll make as many
people happy as possible. The more corners you cut, the lesser will be
the enjoyment of your audience, be it a DXpedition who only gets a
marginal result, a 10th place football team or a toaster that goes
phhhhhpt after 10 minutes' operation.

It's because I have a great love for amateur radio that I make these
points here in this worldwide forum. I hope, sincerely hope, that
somebody who may be planning a DXpedition to a rare entity will take
heed of these cautions and maybe allow me -- and the hundreds of
thousands of others like me, to gain one more notch on our DX belts.
If they put up a good operation and everybody but me gets them, fine.
C'est la vie, c'est la guerre. If they do it crappily and I get
through but most others don't, it still won't be a good operation.

There are two phenomena that drastically changed dxing for the worse.
One is the worst thing that ever happened to ham radio, the DX Cluster
which just about killed off the art of chasing dx and turned it into a
McDX Happy Meal where any idiot with basic reading skills is able to
join the bloody fray at the touch of a button. The other is the
inevitable robot style "you're 59, QRZ?" type of operation that has
become the norm nowadays (spot me on the Cluster, gov'ner, 59, eh, nudge
nudge, wink wink, say no more, say no more?) due to the realization that
money can be made on thousands of QSLs - it's the economy, stupid.

I can't disagree with either of these, but no amount of kvetching will
ever put these genies back in their respective bottles. Your earlier
thoughts display to me a belief in what I call neoDarwinism on the
bands - survival of the fittest. Well, these aspects of the DX art are
Darwinism in the truest forms--the need to adapt. given this is the
current accepted operating practice, do what's necessary to make a QSO
within those accepted parameters.

So now that dxing has been dumbed down, you're arguing for the game to
be watered down even further by insisting on nothing but English
speaking operators with years of dxing experience and operating skills
and with unlimited resources, so that a given dx-ped can be worked at
will by everyone on every band, in every mode with nothing less than an
S9+ signal???

See my above points and don't take things to extreme. Or maybe that's
just your nature. I don't want to be handed anything, ever. I *DO*
want a fair chance with a deck that's not stacked, either for or
against me. I would venture most hams with average stations would be
grateful for the same chance.

You may feel differently if you're sitting in your shack looking at
your #1 Honor Roll plaque, or sitting behind the key or mic of a
mountain-top station with stacked yagis and legal-limit power.

You want fries with that?

Only if they're Québec "Patate Frites," thank you.

73 de Peter, W2IRT
(ex-AB2NZ, VE3THX)

Please reply to Double-you Two Eye Are Tee at Arrl.net

On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 08:53:39 GMT, Zoran Brlecic
wrote:

You want fries with that?

Yeah. Super sized fries, with an EQSL coupon on the side that we can
tear off, and the coupon needs to have a bar code on it that we can
scan to find the QSO in the online logs.....

Seems to me DXing used to be about figuring out ways to work the DX no
matter how they operated instead of molding the DX into doing things
perfectly. Maybe that's why they used to call it AMATEUR radio.....

73, Jim KH2D

Well here are 14 well run DXpeditions -- you work em ???
URL: http://www.425dxn.org/trophy_2003/

--
Incognito By Necessity (:-(

If you can't convince them, confuse them.
- - -Harry S Truman




wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 08:53:39 GMT, Zoran Brlecic
wrote:

You want fries with that?

Yeah. Super sized fries, with an EQSL coupon on the side that we can
tear off, and the coupon needs to have a bar code on it that we can
scan to find the QSO in the online logs.....

Seems to me DXing used to be about figuring out ways to work the DX no
matter how they operated instead of molding the DX into doing things
perfectly. Maybe that's why they used to call it AMATEUR radio.....

73, Jim KH2D

Well here are 14 well run DXpeditions -- you work em ???
URL: http://www.425dxn.org/trophy_2003/

--
Incognito By Necessity (:-(

If you can't convince them, confuse them.
- - -Harry S Truman




wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 08:53:39 GMT, Zoran Brlecic
wrote:

You want fries with that?

Yeah. Super sized fries, with an EQSL coupon on the side that we can
tear off, and the coupon needs to have a bar code on it that we can
scan to find the QSO in the online logs.....

Seems to me DXing used to be about figuring out ways to work the DX no
matter how they operated instead of molding the DX into doing things
perfectly. Maybe that's why they used to call it AMATEUR radio.....

73, Jim KH2D

On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 08:53:39 GMT, Zoran Brlecic
wrote:

You want fries with that?

Yeah. Super sized fries, with an EQSL coupon on the side that we can
tear off, and the coupon needs to have a bar code on it that we can
scan to find the QSO in the online logs.....

Seems to me DXing used to be about figuring out ways to work the DX no
matter how they operated instead of molding the DX into doing things
perfectly. Maybe that's why they used to call it AMATEUR radio.....

73, Jim KH2D

On 13 Mar 2004 18:57:12 -0600, Peter Dougherty
wrote:

My reason for posting these messages isn't to direct anger toward any
one operation. I'm hoping DXpeditioners or organizers of future trips
may possibly obtain one or two clues that they never might have
thought of otherwise, which may lessen the frustration of hams the
world over who want a crack at them.

I'm afraid that's probably wishful thinking at best. We have been
complaining about DXpeditions for years, and that doesn't seem to have
improved the overall quality at all.

Fact is, the people who go aren't necessarily only the Pro's. They are
the people who want to go, who can afford to go, and who don't have
other obligations that keep them from going.

As far as the Dipthongians only working other Dipthongians, that's the
way life is. They paid for the trip with Dipthongian Pesos, so they
should be able to work whomever they please.

One really silly notion you need to get rid of that may change your
perspective on the whole game is the 'fact' that people go on
DXpeditions to work the world, to help the little guys with 100 watts
and a dipole get a 'new' one. That's crap. People go on DXpeditions
because they think it's fun to go, they enjoy the adrenalin rush at
the other end of the pileup - they do it for them, not for you or
me.......

Look up 'deserving' in the dictionary, and I'm sure you'll find it
says nothing about ham radio.

73, Jim KH2D

Peter Dougherty wrote:

I respectfully disagree with that entire premise. There are many
DXpeditions I've worked whose operations have been terrible.


You're making some huge assumptions in your posts:

That every dx-pedition's goal is to work everyone on Earth who calls
them and even those who don't.

That in order to mount a dx-ped, all the ops must be top notch dx-ers,
must speak English with a Brooklyn accent and must be familiar with the
FCC approved US band plan (the so-called "target areas" you called it).

That in order to "give a new one to as many hams as possible", the
operation must be able to provide S9+ signal into all areas of the World
by using the most sophisticated antenna systems and amps available.

That your perusing the DX Cluster and subsequent calling of the DX-ped,
whether successful or not, counts as "investing substantial time and
effort" and that anyone should care about that.

That anyone should give a rat's ass about anyone else's frustrations
about not being able to take a "crack" at the dx-ped.



There are two phenomena that drastically changed dxing for the worse.
One is the worst thing that ever happened to ham radio, the DX Cluster
which just about killed off the art of chasing dx and turned it into a
McDX Happy Meal where any idiot with basic reading skills is able to
join the bloody fray at the touch of a button. The other is the
inevitable robot style "you're 59, QRZ?" type of operation that has
become the norm nowadays (spot me on the Cluster, gov'ner, 59, eh, nudge
nudge, wink wink, say no more, say no more?) due to the realization that
money can be made on thousands of QSLs - it's the economy, stupid.

So now that dxing has been dumbed down, you're arguing for the game to
be watered down even further by insisting on nothing but English
speaking operators with years of dxing experience and operating skills
and with unlimited resources, so that a given dx-ped can be worked at
will by everyone on every band, in every mode with nothing less than an
S9+ signal???

You want fries with that?


73 ... WA7AA





--

Anti-spam measu look me up on qrz.com if you need to reply directly

said :

That's an easy question to answer.
If you work them, NOTHING is wrong with them.
If you don't work them, EVERYTHING is wrong with them.
Obviously, you didn't.

Actually, that's not quite correct. I worked all of the operations I'm
referring to on at least one band/mode, with the exception of 3C0V.
Given the problems they faced, I don't know if there is any blame on
their part, so I won't comment.

If you don't work them, EVERYTHING is wrong with them.
I respectfully disagree with that entire premise. There are many
DXpeditions I've worked whose operations have been terrible. Yes, I'm
thankful they heard me, yes I'm thankful that they spent their time
and money to go, etc. But that doesn't mean that I thik they're all
first-class operators.

Here's one example that drives me nuts. If they're calling for North
America only, where I'm situated, and they're going by numbers in the
early days. Some EuroLids get in there and start shouting down
everybody, and don't even bother with the correct number -- i.e. DX
wants North America, number 2 only, and a gaggle of I, EA, CT, ON, OZ,
etc, stations with every number under the sun calls in. That's bad
enough. THEN, the DX station calls a loud EA5 when he was asking for
W/VE 2's, sorry...I think that's just a plain old bad operator.
Actually, TWO bad operators.

In the ARRL-SSB contest last Sunday afternoon, I listened to EA9IE,
Juan, handle a world-wide 20M pileup just spectacularly. He took a few
seconds to tell off the lids who were calling out of turn. It just
took about 4 or 5 and they got the message, and an otherwise
extra-strength-Tylenol class pileup became very manageable. Kudos,
Juan. Bob Furzer's done it too, as as Martti and members of his teams,
albeit each in their own fashion. When I eventually become part of a
DXpedition (money's too tight for the moment), I'll do the same. If I
want 5s only, only fives will be called. Insistent 8s and 9s will be
ignored or politely advised that they will not be called upon.

If an operator behind the mic or key happens to be from Upper Dipthong
and he favours other Upper Dipthongians over anybody else who is
calling in their proper turn, or when asked, well, sorry...that's
another Bad Operator.

OK, anybody can miss a few here and there, and I'll not aim my
displeasure on an operator who's having a Really Bad Day and makes a
few mistakes. We're human. We can be forgiven for that kind of thing.
I'm talking about operations that *regularly* do these things.

I'm talking also about operations that simply don't understand the
concept of going split over a range of frequencies, especially in the
first few days of a major operation to a rare entity. Q rates become 1
or 2 a minute, bedlam reigns and ill-will is the order of the day.

Other operators simply don't have enough skill with the English
language to be part of an operation whose main operating language is
English. Sorry, no offence, but it should be incumbant on a phone op
behind the mic to a most-wanted DXpedition to have a reasonably-strong
command of the English language. I'm not talking about a Shakespearean
stage actor here, but just someone who can converse readily in
English. I doff my hat to the big International operations who bring
on board at least one JA operator to work the inevitable JA pileups.
Many EU-originated operations don't do this for stateside hams.

My reason for posting these messages isn't to direct anger toward any
one operation. I'm hoping DXpeditioners or organizers of future trips
may possibly obtain one or two clues that they never might have
thought of otherwise, which may lessen the frustration of hams the
world over who want a crack at them.


73 de Peter, W2IRT
(ex-AB2NZ, VE3THX)

Please reply to Double-you Two Eye Are Tee at Arrl.net

That's an easy question to answer.

If you work them, NOTHING is wrong with them.

If you don't work them, EVERYTHING is wrong with them.

Obviously, you didn't.

73, Jim KH2D

Why is it that the "best operators" are found at home complaining
rather than on the expedition doing what they complain the other guys are
not doing?
Joe