"Simon VK3XEM" wrote in message
. ..
Walt Davidson G3NNY is a *HYPOCRITE* because he carries on about
computers and the Internet here yet what is he operating? Maybe you
should give up on the Internet Walt and dust off your spark gap
transmitter.


Well, I don't normally side with the grumpy old b****r, but this time . . .
.. . .
Of course Walt's using a computer and the internet, but to contribute to a
NG.
He is not using VoIP instead of a radio, and then calling it amateur radio.
Granted IRLP requires a radio at each end, but the other VoIP modes do not,
and that is what is the issue with many of us.

Dave S.

"Dave S." wrote in message
...

"Simon VK3XEM" wrote in message
. ..
Walt Davidson G3NNY is a *HYPOCRITE* because he carries on about
computers and the Internet here yet what is he operating? Maybe you
should give up on the Internet Walt and dust off your spark gap
transmitter.


Well, I don't normally side with the grumpy old b****r, but this time . .
.
. . .
Of course Walt's using a computer and the internet, but to contribute to a
NG.
He is not using VoIP instead of a radio, and then calling it amateur
radio.
Granted IRLP requires a radio at each end, but the other VoIP modes do
not,
and that is what is the issue with many of us.

But we're NOT talking about the *other* VoIP modes, just IRLP. I am not
trying to debate EchoLink..

So, are you saying that IRLP *is* part of Amateur Radio as it uses radio
*linked* using internet protocol, but EchoLink (etc) isn't as it uses NO
radio at all??? Can we assume that is correct?

Martin, VK2UMJ wrote:


"Dave S." wrote in message
...

"Simon VK3XEM" wrote in message
. ..
Walt Davidson G3NNY is a *HYPOCRITE* because he carries on about
computers and the Internet here yet what is he operating? Maybe you
should give up on the Internet Walt and dust off your spark gap
transmitter.


Well, I don't normally side with the grumpy old b****r, but this time . .
.
. . .
Of course Walt's using a computer and the internet, but to contribute to
a NG.
He is not using VoIP instead of a radio, and then calling it amateur
radio.
Granted IRLP requires a radio at each end, but the other VoIP modes do
not,
and that is what is the issue with many of us.

But we're NOT talking about the *other* VoIP modes, just IRLP. I am not
trying to debate EchoLink..

So, are you saying that IRLP *is* part of Amateur Radio as it uses radio
*linked* using internet protocol, but EchoLink (etc) isn't as it uses NO
radio at all??? Can we assume that is correct?

That would be my position at least :-)


G-S VK3DMN

"Martin, VK2UMJ" wrote in message
...

So, are you saying that IRLP *is* part of Amateur Radio as it uses radio
*linked* using internet protocol, but EchoLink (etc) isn't as it uses NO
radio at all??? Can we assume that is correct?

I'm not overly enamoured with the way that the internet is being used in
amateur radio as it seems to be converting our hobby into nothing more than
a mobile phone system. However, my opinion is as you have stated. At least
IRLP demands the use of a radio at each end, and simply uses the internet as
a means of propagating a signal. The other systems - Echolink etc. - do not
work like that, and you can have someone using a radio talking to someone
using a computer, and to me, that isn't amateur radio.

The point I was making about Walt is that he was being unfairly labelled a
hypocrite. His objection seemed to be not about using the internet at all,
but about using computers and the internet and calling it amateur radio.

Dave S.

"Dave S." wrote in message
...

The point I was making about Walt is that he was being unfairly labelled a
hypocrite. His objection seemed to be not about using the internet at all,
but about using computers and the internet and calling it amateur radio.

Dave S.

His objection, like Dan, was based on his complete ignorance of the way the
system functioned.

brad.

"Dave S." wrote in message
...

"Martin, VK2UMJ" wrote in message
...

So, are you saying that IRLP *is* part of Amateur Radio as it uses radio
*linked* using internet protocol, but EchoLink (etc) isn't as it uses NO
radio at all??? Can we assume that is correct?

I'm not overly enamoured with the way that the internet is being used in
amateur radio as it seems to be converting our hobby into nothing more
than
a mobile phone system. However, my opinion is as you have stated. At least
IRLP demands the use of a radio at each end, and simply uses the internet
as
a means of propagating a signal. The other systems - Echolink etc. - do
not
work like that, and you can have someone using a radio talking to someone
using a computer, and to me, that isn't amateur radio.

The point I was making about Walt is that he was being unfairly labelled a
hypocrite. His objection seemed to be not about using the internet at all,
but about using computers and the internet and calling it amateur radio.

Dave S.

It seemed (at first) that Walt just didn't want to listen and understand
that IRLP used radio at each end - he seemed to be confusing EchoLink with
IRLP and just didn't want to take notice of the many people trying to
explain that IRLP was no different than linking repeaters via landline,
which seems to be widely accepted in the amateur community.

But then Walt showed his true colours when he said that even repeaters
aren't amateur radio in his eyes, so I suspect it isn't IRLP he is objecting
to, it's actually anyone younger than 50 with an amateur licence! It's a
sad fact that one thing pulling amateur radio down are the old operators
like Walt that just can't accept (or undertsand?) changing times and believe
that all operators should stick to the bands and modes they choose as
suitable. Most of the older operators have a wealth of information and
experience they could share with the newer operators, helping them to become
better hams and advancing the hobby. But instead they sit there, forever
grumpy that times change, throwing abuse and ridicule at those entering the
hobby and at the same time wondering why amateur radio is slowly dying!

Funny thing is, many of the old timers probably wouldn't be able to pass the
lower grade tests these days if they were made to re-sit the exams! How
many have kept up on the regs? How many still have all the technical
knowledge? I know some VK Full Calls that got their licence in 'the old
days', that couldn't for the life of them construct a dummy load or string
up a simple wire antenna, or build a SSTV/RTTY interface, or even get one to
work without help from a 'newcomer'. These are tasks that even the lowest
grade newcomer are performing every day.... (yes, I know this doesn't apply
to *all* "old timers" or full calls, but it does apply to many of them - and
if it were a lower grade operator that couldn't do these things then the old
timers would be the first to jump up and say they shouldn't have a licence,
etc..)

Personally, I accept that there are many different aspects to amateur radio,
and while (to me) IRLP will never be as good as actual DX contacts via RF,
at least it gives some operators the chanve to talk outside their local area
and hopefully that will spark their interest a little more as they hear
stories and experiences from overseas operators. And besides, if you don't
like IRLP there is nobody holding a shotgun to your head and forcing you to
listen - there are plenty of other frequencies to use!

Cheers

--
Martin, VK2UMJ

To reply by e-mail, replace ".invalid" with ".com.au"


Lost - is when you don't know where you are.
Missing - is when others don't know where you are.
Stuffed - is when both occur at the same time!!!

Martin, VK2UMJ wrote:

It seemed (at first) that Walt just didn't want to listen and understand
that IRLP used radio at each end - he seemed to be confusing EchoLink with
IRLP and just didn't want to take notice of the many people trying to
explain that IRLP was no different than linking repeaters via landline,
which seems to be widely accepted in the amateur community.

As already explained, the difference between Echolink and IRLP (and
eQSO for that matter) is minuscule. The whole question of whether
amateurs using computers are not amateurs when they use their
computer, but are amateurs when they use their radios is absurd.

I am a radio amateur. When I talk to another amateur, whether I'm
using Echolink, eQSO, my rig, or even talking over the telephone - if
I'm talking about amateur radio - then I'm having a QSO.

But, here in the UK, there is a new breed of "amateur" gaining
licences, a breed that is incapable of recognising the difference
between a direct contact over radio, and a QSO assisted by either a
repeater or by the internet.

Worse still, some of this breed openly admit to not caring to learn
how it all works. "I'm not technical here, but I can copy you ok".

Well, this *is* a technical hobby, and I have very little time for
those who openly don't wish to learn about "how it works".

There *was* a time when, if you didn't care to learn about propagation
then you weren't adequately qualified to gain a licence. The UK's
Foundation Fiasco Licence (M3 prefix) has moved the goalposts, and now
this tier of licence is available to anyone with a brain equal or
greater than that of an amoeba.

But then Walt showed his true colours when he said that even repeaters
aren't amateur radio in his eyes, so I suspect it isn't IRLP he is objecting
to, it's actually anyone younger than 50 with an amateur licence! It's a
sad fact that one thing pulling amateur radio down are the old operators
like Walt that just can't accept (or undertsand?) changing times and believe
that all operators should stick to the bands and modes they choose as
suitable. Most of the older operators have a wealth of information and
experience they could share with the newer operators, helping them to become
better hams and advancing the hobby. But instead they sit there, forever
grumpy that times change, throwing abuse and ridicule at those entering the
hobby and at the same time wondering why amateur radio is slowly dying!

The hobby is not dying. The hf bands are as full of enthusiastic
amateurs as ever before. The hobby is dumbing down. In addition to the
genuine enthusiasts, we now have people who only want to chatter.
Perhaps its time for a new type of CQ call. One four for a copy
anyone?

[ageism text snipped]

Personally, I accept that there are many different aspects to amateur radio,
and while (to me) IRLP will never be as good as actual DX contacts via RF,
at least it gives some operators the chanve to talk outside their local area
and hopefully that will spark their interest a little more as they hear
stories and experiences from overseas operators. And besides, if you don't
like IRLP there is nobody holding a shotgun to your head and forcing you to
listen - there are plenty of other frequencies to use!

.... on that sentiment, we can agree 100%!

73,
--
Chris

On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 13:29:13 +1000, "Martin, VK2UMJ"
wrote:

Most of the older operators have a wealth of information and
experience they could share with the newer operators, helping them to become
better hams and advancing the hobby. But instead they sit there, forever
grumpy that times change, throwing abuse and ridicule at those entering the
hobby and at the same time wondering why amateur radio is slowly dying!


Please! Don't tar all of us with the same brush!

Peter wrote:

On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 13:29:13 +1000, "Martin, VK2UMJ"
wrote:

Most of the older operators have a wealth of information and
experience they could share with the newer operators, helping them to
become
better hams and advancing the hobby. But instead they sit there, forever
grumpy that times change, throwing abuse and ridicule at those entering
the hobby and at the same time wondering why amateur radio is slowly
dying!


Please! Don't tar all of us with the same brush!

Yes speaking as someone who could join the Radio Amateurs Old Timers Club
(being licensed more than 25 years)... please don't :-)


G-S VK3DMN

Dave S. wrote:

The point I was making about Walt is that he was being unfairly labelled a
hypocrite. His objection seemed to be not about using the internet at all,
but about using computers and the internet and calling it amateur radio.

If you had followed all of the thread you would be aware that he objected to
VHF and UHF repeaters, IRLP, Echo Link, CB-ers, ex CB-ers, non morse code
tested amateurs and a number of other procedures and groups _without_
giving supporting arguments.

When people started to refute his arguments with logic and refused to accept
'his word from on high' he started to get upset.

When he refused to debate the _issues_ people starting regarding him in
various less than complimentary ways I suspect :-)

This is after all usenet... people _will_ challenged unsupported statements
(and rightly so!).


G-S VK3DMN