....Would any of you say that Heathkit, of Benton Harbour, Michigan, maybe
perpetuated the glamour within the ham hobby of the recent past, or did the
glamour of the ham hobby past perpetuate Heathkit until there was no more
glamour?

Jack

"Al Klein" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 08:49:35 -0400, "J. D. B."
wrote:

Young people see our hobby as outdated and the CW testing requirement
reinforces that. What to see a huge drop in licenses? Bring back CW
testing for all licenses and raise the speeds again. There will be
hardly any new licenses issued if someone made such a gross and stupid
error in judgement.

The drop started MANY years before CW was dropped. Want to increase
the number of hams? Eliminate cellular phones (a lot of people got on
the air to have communications in the car) and the internet - since
those are two of the prime causes of lack of interest in ham radio
today.

CW testing has nothing to do with knowing how the radio works or how it
operates.

But many of the same people who want to eliminate CW also want to
eliminate any tests that would really test for knowledge. It's not CW
they want to eliminate, it's effort. You can cheat on written tests
but, since you can't cheat much on CW (although some have), they want
it eliminated. Not just kept for one class of license. What's wrong
with code-free HF, but an additional class with, say, a 20wpm CW test?
It would have nothing to do with the number of people becoming hams.
But those who are opposed to CW testing are opposed to ALL CW testing.
Getting on the air - with the highest class license available is, to
them, their right.

It's like people who are adamantly opposed to having driver's licenses
revoked because "driving is a right".

Sorry, but getting on the public airwaves is not a right.

Besides, since the US is a democracy, the ham bands will turn into
whatever we let it turn into because the majority rules

Democracy is a form of government that protects the minority from the
excesses of the majority - the majority doesn't need protection from
itself.

Really? My other hobby is model trains and I have never seen a rift in
model trains in 45 years.

Ham Radio has rifts only because some people feel they are better than
others and try to impose their will and superiority over others.
Usually over a CW testing requirement, being able to repair old,
outdated tube crap, and how fast one can send and receiver an old mode
of communication. They feel that just because someone can't send and
receive CW that they are somehow inferior. It is such foolishness. But
hang in there. These old, unbending old-timers are dying off and
eventually hams will all be united again promoting the service/hobby and
joining the national organization in support of the service/hobby. I
guess that's why God does not have people living forever. Death has a
way of cleansing the hobby of the old, outdated, and outmoded.

Al Klein wrote:
On 24 Jul 2006 21:57:39 -0700, "BruceMN44" wrote:

argument of learning code. I'm very dismayed by this rift, I wanted to
join a fellow group of RF communication enthusianists. I don't need a
segration here too...there is enough of that society already, I don't
need that in a hobby too.

There are rifts in all hobbies.

Al, you and the rest of the old farts want CW to keep ham radio from
becoming like CB - right? CW does not keep people from using radios, it
keeps people from seeking a amateur radio license. You and the rest of
the crusty old and out-dated hams think that CW is kind of a filter or
the price of admission. It's an over-rated and over-priced ticket.

CBers do not have to have a good knowledge of electronics and
propagation to use the radio because there is little else for them to
venture into - unlike ham radio. But then again, there are darn few
CBers anymore. You, like many other crusty old hams, hang onto this
notion that there are so many CBers out there and that the CB band is
still out of control like it was 25 years ago. It's not. It's somewhat
quiet as people have left CB behind just like they are leaving ham radio
behind - but each for different reasons. CB because cell phones have
replaced its usage and the speed limit isn't 55 anymore. Ham radio has
been left behind because of its image as a hobby for morse code freaks
and glowing tubes. The CW testing requirement just reinforces that belief.

Old fart crusty hams like yourself who continue to promote CW and CW
testing keep reinforcing the belief that the hobby is old and crusty
like yourselves and keep people out in favor of other interest where
they don't have to take a test to get involved and have fun.

I am not destroying any argument, you just cannot follow simple logic.
Face it, we can spar back and forth on this forever. The reality is
that CW testing in the US is going to die soon. You cannot stop the
change. Most of the rest of the world has already changed - the US
cannot be far behind. Be it now, or ten years from now, CW testing is
going to be gone, out of here, adios, good riddance and so long.
Hopefully it will not happen too late. The longer the CW requirement
remains, the closer ham radio is to death.

Al Klein wrote:
On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 08:56:58 -0400, "J. D. B."
wrote:

Yup, that's what I also believe. Get people into the service and they
will start learning what they need to know on their own.

What color is the sky on your world? (If you were correct, most CBers
would have a pretty good knowledge of electronics and propagation.)

So not only are people avoiding ham radio, they are also avoiding CB.

So how does CW enter into things?

Find a new argument Al for keeping people out of ham radio will you?

Oh? It's not MY argument that CW keeps people from using radios, it's
YOURS! And you just destroyed your own best argument.

"J. D. B." wrote:

Al, you and the rest of the old farts want CW to keep ham radio from
becoming like CB - right? CW does not keep people from using radios, it
keeps people from seeking a amateur radio license. You and the rest of
the crusty old and out-dated hams think that CW is kind of a filter or
the price of admission. It's an over-rated and over-priced ticket.

CBers do not have to have a good knowledge of electronics and
propagation to use the radio because there is little else for them to
venture into - unlike ham radio. But then again, there are darn few
CBers anymore. You, like many other crusty old hams, hang onto this
notion that there are so many CBers out there and that the CB band is
still out of control like it was 25 years ago. It's not. It's somewhat
quiet as people have left CB behind just like they are leaving ham radio
behind - but each for different reasons. CB because cell phones have
replaced its usage and the speed limit isn't 55 anymore. Ham radio has
been left behind because of its image as a hobby for morse code freaks
and glowing tubes. The CW testing requirement just reinforces that belief.

Old fart crusty hams like yourself who continue to promote CW and CW
testing keep reinforcing the belief that the hobby is old and crusty
like yourselves and keep people out in favor of other interest where
they don't have to take a test to get involved and have fun.

I am not destroying any argument, you just cannot follow simple logic.
Face it, we can spar back and forth on this forever. The reality is
that CW testing in the US is going to die soon. You cannot stop the
change. Most of the rest of the world has already changed - the US
cannot be far behind. Be it now, or ten years from now, CW testing is
going to be gone, out of here, adios, good riddance and so long.
Hopefully it will not happen too late. The longer the CW requirement
remains, the closer ham radio is to death.

If all you whiners would devote the time you spend whining about CW into
actually learning CW you might just pass the test.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

dxAce wrote:
"J. D. B." wrote:

Al, you and the rest of the old farts want CW to keep ham radio from
becoming like CB - right? CW does not keep people from using radios, it
keeps people from seeking a amateur radio license. You and the rest of
the crusty old and out-dated hams think that CW is kind of a filter or
the price of admission. It's an over-rated and over-priced ticket.

CBers do not have to have a good knowledge of electronics and
propagation to use the radio because there is little else for them to
venture into - unlike ham radio. But then again, there are darn few
CBers anymore. You, like many other crusty old hams, hang onto this
notion that there are so many CBers out there and that the CB band is
still out of control like it was 25 years ago. It's not. It's somewhat
quiet as people have left CB behind just like they are leaving ham radio
behind - but each for different reasons. CB because cell phones have
replaced its usage and the speed limit isn't 55 anymore. Ham radio has
been left behind because of its image as a hobby for morse code freaks
and glowing tubes. The CW testing requirement just reinforces that belief.

Old fart crusty hams like yourself who continue to promote CW and CW
testing keep reinforcing the belief that the hobby is old and crusty
like yourselves and keep people out in favor of other interest where
they don't have to take a test to get involved and have fun.

I am not destroying any argument, you just cannot follow simple logic.
Face it, we can spar back and forth on this forever. The reality is
that CW testing in the US is going to die soon. You cannot stop the
change. Most of the rest of the world has already changed - the US
cannot be far behind. Be it now, or ten years from now, CW testing is
going to be gone, out of here, adios, good riddance and so long.
Hopefully it will not happen too late. The longer the CW requirement
remains, the closer ham radio is to death.

If all you whiners would devote the time you spend whining about CW into
actually learning CW you might just pass the test.

then again we might not

OTOH that isn't the point CW testing (and use for that matter) is bad
for our image


dxAce
Michigan
USA

Oh, but I already did pass the 13WPM test way back in the 1980s. Most
of us objecting to the CW testing requirement have passed the test. We
realize that the only way to save the amateur service is to get more
people into the service. The way to do it is to eliminate old, outdated
and useless requirements that keep us stuck back in time and create a
perception that keeps people from even considering getting into the
hobby and service.

dxAce wrote:

If all you whiners would devote the time you spend whining about CW into
actually learning CW you might just pass the test.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 10:34:17 -0400, "J. D. B."
wrote:

Really? My other hobby is model trains and I have never seen a rift in
model trains in 45 years.

So which is *really* the best gauge to model? Is it okay if you buy
kits, or aren't you a real rail hobbyist unless you make at least all
your cars from scratch? Or do you have to build your own engines from
scratch too? Etc., etc.

On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 12:36:26 -0400, "J. D. B."
wrote:

Al, you and the rest of the old farts want CW to keep ham radio from
becoming like CB - right?

Wrong. I want ham radio to stop being what it's been for the last
couple of decades - CB on different frequencies. There are CBers who
are competent communications engineers, but the majority today - CB or
ham band - want to buy a radio and put it on the air. Any license
requirement is just an annoyance they get around any way they can -
except by actually studying and learning enough to pass tests.

Take a close look at a General test from the 50s and one from today.
The difference isn't that the current one dropped old technical
questions and added equivalent questions about modern modes - it's
that the current test has dropped the technical requirement low enough
that it's a joke. Everyone says that CW is old hat and modern modes
have replaced it. Okay - let's see a question asking for a PSK
interface schematic, including full isolation. That's just simple
audio and DC stuff. Let's have questions on Rayleigh fading and its
effect on maximum usable baud rate at various frequencies, so no one
complains about the FCC not giving us permission to run 9600 bps on
20. Modern stuff.

And no more published answers.

Then let's see how many people talk about "modern" and how many yell
"too difficult - there's no reason to know all this stuff". Which is
why, on SWL fora, you'll see people complaining that they listened all
day on 4.2 MHz and only heard noise. Or tried to get some foreign
broadcast station up above 15 MHz all night and couldn't.

It's the "why doesn't this work, and don't give me any of that
technical BS" syndrome. People don't want to know how things work, or
why they don't work, but they're angry that they don't. And don't you
dare tell anyone it's his fault for trying to receive a 440 repeater
80 miles away with a 1/4 wave antenna 5 feet off the ground. His
friend, just 3 doors down, copies the repeater S9+ (with a dual 11
element beam 75 feet in the air and LMR600 coax). Now, without any
technical BS or monetary expenditure, what does he have to do to
receive it?

It's not that no one ever pulled that stuff 50 years ago - but it was
so far in the minority that it was below the noise level. Today it's
the majority of newcomers. "I have a right to use the public
airwaves, and I don't want to have to learn anything."

Al Klein wrote:
On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 12:36:26 -0400, "J. D. B."
wrote:

Al, you and the rest of the old farts want CW to keep ham radio from
becoming like CB - right?

Wrong. I want ham radio to stop being what it's been for the last
couple of decades - CB on different frequencies.
then give it up along with your hang ups about cb if you please
There are CBers who
are competent communications engineers, but the majority today - CB or
ham band - want to buy a radio and put it on the air.
granted

now what is WRONG with that?
Any license
requirement is just an annoyance they get around any way they can -
except by actually studying and learning enough to pass tests.
then how do they get the lecnse?
they learn enough to pass clearly not more than that in many case I
grant you

Take a close look at a General test from the 50s and one from today.
The difference isn't that the current one dropped old technical
questions and added equivalent questions about modern modes - it's
that the current test has dropped the technical requirement low enough
that it's a joke. Everyone says that CW is old hat and modern modes
have replaced it. Okay - let's see a question asking for a PSK
interface schematic, including full isolation. That's just simple
audio and DC stuff.
why?
Let's have questions on Rayleigh fading and its
effect on maximum usable baud rate at various frequencies, so no one
complains about the FCC not giving us permission to run 9600 bps on
20. Modern stuff.
why do you need to know that in order to operate?
to just get on the air..
Understand in the case you mention is NOT required only obeinace
understanding hopefully comes later

different folks come to different levels of understanding about
different subjects at different time

the license is a permit to learn not proof you have learned
you convince of the need and I will support you

And no more published answers.
NO can do the court have more or less so, along the long standing body
of the FCC not chaleanceing Bash et all years ago to close the
quiestion pools NOW would more or less require an act of Congress or a
change in ITU treaty lang. It took us No Code what 4 or decades to
acheeve the changes we needd in order to bring off No Code


Then let's see how many people talk about "modern" and how many yell
"too difficult - there's no reason to know all this stuff". Which is
why, on SWL fora, you'll see people complaining that they listened all
day on 4.2 MHz and only heard noise. Or tried to get some foreign
broadcast station up above 15 MHz all night and couldn't.

It's the "why doesn't this work, and don't give me any of that
technical BS" syndrome. People don't want to know how things work, or
why they don't work, but they're angry that they don't. And don't you
dare tell anyone it's his fault for trying to receive a 440 repeater
80 miles away with a 1/4 wave antenna 5 feet off the ground. His
friend, just 3 doors down, copies the repeater S9+ (with a dual 11
element beam 75 feet in the air and LMR600 coax). Now, without any
technical BS or monetary expenditure, what does he have to do to
receive it?
never heard such a complaint ever


It's not that no one ever pulled that stuff 50 years ago - but it was
so far in the minority that it was below the noise level. Today it's
the majority of newcomers. "I have a right to use the public
airwaves, and I don't want to have to learn anything."
Funny all I heard of Ham radio for many years was the "wizards of 80M"
all code tested hams

I have never heard any realy bad behavoi r from any ham that hasn't had
his license renewed at least twice (which leaves out ALL No code techs
BTW)

indeed I have never heard the sort of Vile lang I have heard from that
bunch on CB perhaps midwestern Cber are just different prehaps you are
just full of it

On 25 Jul 2006 12:12:44 -0700, "an old freind"
wrote:

Al Klein wrote:

There are CBers who
are competent communications engineers, but the majority today - CB or
ham band - want to buy a radio and put it on the air.

granted

now what is WRONG with that?

That's fine - for CB - that's what it's for. Ham radio is NOT CB.
(Or, at least, it wasn't supposed to be.)

Any license
requirement is just an annoyance they get around any way they can -
except by actually studying and learning enough to pass tests.

then how do they get the lecnse?

They memorize the answers.

they learn enough to pass

If you call learning how to cheat "learning".

Take a close look at a General test from the 50s and one from today.
The difference isn't that the current one dropped old technical
questions and added equivalent questions about modern modes - it's
that the current test has dropped the technical requirement low enough
that it's a joke. Everyone says that CW is old hat and modern modes
have replaced it. Okay - let's see a question asking for a PSK
interface schematic, including full isolation. That's just simple
audio and DC stuff.

why?

Why what? You said we should forget CW and concentrate on more modern
aspects of the hobby. A computer-radio interface is modern.

Let's have questions on Rayleigh fading and its
effect on maximum usable baud rate at various frequencies, so no one
complains about the FCC not giving us permission to run 9600 bps on
20. Modern stuff.

why do you need to know that in order to operate?
to just get on the air..

Because if you try to run much over 100 baud on 20 you're just making
interference. the fact that you didn't know that shows that there are
things you need to learn before you start transmitting in "modern
modes".

Understand in the case you mention is NOT required only obeinace
understanding hopefully comes later

How do you begin to understand WHY you can't run more speed on 20 by
just operating?

different folks come to different levels of understanding about
different subjects at different time

you're saying that not everyone is equal. then why treat everyone as
if everyone were equal?

the license is a permit to learn not proof you have learned

The license is a permit to operate. Whether you ever learn anything
after you get it is totally irrelevant to the license.

And no more published answers.

NO can do the court have more or less so, along the long standing body
of the FCC not chaleanceing Bash et all years ago to close the
quiestion pools NOW would more or less require an act of Congress or a
change in ITU treaty lang.

Which part of any treaty says that the answers have to be published?
Quote it.

It's the "why doesn't this work, and don't give me any of that
technical BS" syndrome. People don't want to know how things work, or
why they don't work, but they're angry that they don't. And don't you
dare tell anyone it's his fault for trying to receive a 440 repeater
80 miles away with a 1/4 wave antenna 5 feet off the ground. His
friend, just 3 doors down, copies the repeater S9+ (with a dual 11
element beam 75 feet in the air and LMR600 coax). Now, without any
technical BS or monetary expenditure, what does he have to do to
receive it?

never heard such a complaint ever

I see it a few times a day on some fora.

It's not that no one ever pulled that stuff 50 years ago - but it was
so far in the minority that it was below the noise level. Today it's
the majority of newcomers. "I have a right to use the public
airwaves, and I don't want to have to learn anything."

Funny all I heard of Ham radio for many years was the "wizards of 80M"
all code tested hams

And all I heard was hams talking about designing and building things
that everyone knew couldn't be done. I guess you don't remember when
440 MHz was considered much too high a frequency to be useful for
anything. After all, how useful was a frequency you couldn't transmit
on as far as you could read a billboard?

indeed I have never heard the sort of Vile lang I have heard from that
bunch on CB perhaps midwestern Cber are just different prehaps you are
just full of it

And perhaps you just don't know as much as you'd like to think you do.
Let's start with English, shall we? Or do you think you really
communicate well with the mish-mash you use instead of a real
language?