On 6/20/2014 8:01 AM, Jeff wrote:

I hadn't heard of using a domestic oven like this. It sounds like an
interesting idea. But wouldn't it be a bit hard on the components? I
wouldn't think many would like being heated his hot.

The commercial assembly lines I've seen use robot soldering irons
instead of heating the entire board.


I ahve never heard of a line usiung robot soldering irons!! It would be
far too slow. Lines normally use either wave soldering or IR reflow.

Jeff

Jeff,

You'd be surprised how quickly a robot soldering iron makes a connection
- less than 1/2 second per connection (and, of course, you can have
multiple irons working on the same board simultaneously, with proper
programming). The first time I saw it was back in the 70's, but I'm
sure it was in use long before that.

Yes, it's slower than wave or IR reflow. But it's a proven technology
which has been around for decades and does have its uses - i.e.
temperature-sensitive components which can't handle the heat of wave or
IR reflow.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

On 2014-06-20 11:02:44 +0000, Jerry Stuckle said:

On 6/20/2014 3:54 AM, Brian Reay wrote:
Michael Black wrote:


I seem to recall from early articles about surface mount the suggestion
of using a dab of flux to hold the component in place. It was only to
hold it until you actually had something soldered.

That said, I really think a good magnifiying glass or microscope makes
sense. I was trying to figure out something, and got out the jeweller's
loupe, and it's amazing how much bigger everything is. That's not going
to work for soldering, but getting good magnification that will stand on
its own is bound to help a lot. And good lighting. Looking at that board
with the loupe almost makes the idea of soldering surface mount within
my capability.

Michael,

For SMD projects, rather than repairs, you can use a domestic oven to
solder the boards. Ideally, get a small table top model (the type of thing
student or caravaners use) but I did a test run in a full sized kitchen
one. The key thing is to be able to get to 230C or so at least.

You need to plot a graph of the way the oven temp rises using a
thermocouple (I borrowed one but they are cheap enough to buy). Basically
you put the board it with all the components held in place by solder paste.
Set the temp to about 200C and watch as it rises. When it gets to 100, turn
oven off for 3 min, this is known as drying time and is to drive the
solvent from the solder paste, them set temp to 250 or as high as you can
if lower. Now watch carefully, as soon as the solder paste melts and flows
to make the joints, turn off the oven and open the door.

I've tried this a couple of times and the results are surprisingly good. No
dry joints, no moved components.

The graph will help you predict when things are about to 'happen' and the
thermocouple is essential if your oven temp. gauge isn't accurate.


Brian,

I hadn't heard of using a domestic oven like this. It sounds like an
interesting idea. But wouldn't it be a bit hard on the components? I
wouldn't think many would like being heated his hot.

The commercial assembly lines I've seen use robot soldering irons
instead of heating the entire board.

I believe stencilling on solder paste, robot placement of components,
and melting the whole board in a reflow-like process with an accurately
controlled temperature vs. time profile is pretty standard for
complicated multilayer boards nowadays.

--

Percy Picacity

On 6/20/2014 10:05 AM, Percy Picacity wrote:
On 2014-06-20 11:02:44 +0000, Jerry Stuckle said:

On 6/20/2014 3:54 AM, Brian Reay wrote:
Michael Black wrote:


I seem to recall from early articles about surface mount the suggestion
of using a dab of flux to hold the component in place. It was only to
hold it until you actually had something soldered.

That said, I really think a good magnifiying glass or microscope makes
sense. I was trying to figure out something, and got out the
jeweller's
loupe, and it's amazing how much bigger everything is. That's not
going
to work for soldering, but getting good magnification that will
stand on
its own is bound to help a lot. And good lighting. Looking at that
board
with the loupe almost makes the idea of soldering surface mount
within my capability.

Michael,

For SMD projects, rather than repairs, you can use a domestic oven to
solder the boards. Ideally, get a small table top model (the type of
thing
student or caravaners use) but I did a test run in a full sized kitchen
one. The key thing is to be able to get to 230C or so at least.

You need to plot a graph of the way the oven temp rises using a
thermocouple (I borrowed one but they are cheap enough to buy).
Basically
you put the board it with all the components held in place by solder
paste.
Set the temp to about 200C and watch as it rises. When it gets to
100, turn
oven off for 3 min, this is known as drying time and is to drive the
solvent from the solder paste, them set temp to 250 or as high as you
can
if lower. Now watch carefully, as soon as the solder paste melts and
flows
to make the joints, turn off the oven and open the door.

I've tried this a couple of times and the results are surprisingly
good. No
dry joints, no moved components.

The graph will help you predict when things are about to 'happen' and
the
thermocouple is essential if your oven temp. gauge isn't accurate.


Brian,

I hadn't heard of using a domestic oven like this. It sounds like an
interesting idea. But wouldn't it be a bit hard on the components? I
wouldn't think many would like being heated his hot.

The commercial assembly lines I've seen use robot soldering irons
instead of heating the entire board.

I believe stencilling on solder paste, robot placement of components,
and melting the whole board in a reflow-like process with an accurately
controlled temperature vs. time profile is pretty standard for
complicated multilayer boards nowadays.


That may be the "standard" for high volume production where temperature
sensitive parts are not involved. But it is not the only way it's done.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

Percy Picacity wrote:
I believe stencilling on solder paste, robot placement of components,
and melting the whole board in a reflow-like process with an accurately
controlled temperature vs. time profile is pretty standard for
complicated multilayer boards nowadays.

You are not going to convince Jerry once he has one of his usual
twisted views on reality...

On 6/20/2014 1:32 PM, Brian Reay wrote:
Percy Picacity wrote:
On 2014-06-20 11:02:44 +0000, Jerry Stuckle said:

On 6/20/2014 3:54 AM, Brian Reay wrote:
Michael Black wrote:
I seem to recall from early articles about surface mount the suggestion
of using a dab of flux to hold the component in place. It was only to
hold it until you actually had something soldered.
That said, I really think a good magnifiying glass or microscope makes
sense. I was trying to figure out something, and got out the jeweller's
loupe, and it's amazing how much bigger everything is. That's not going
to work for soldering, but getting good magnification that will stand on
its own is bound to help a lot. And good lighting. Looking at that board
with the loupe almost makes the idea of soldering surface mount within
my capability.
Michael,
For SMD projects, rather than repairs, you can use a domestic oven to
solder the boards. Ideally, get a small table top model (the type of thing
student or caravaners use) but I did a test run in a full sized kitchen
one. The key thing is to be able to get to 230C or so at least.
You need to plot a graph of the way the oven temp rises using a
thermocouple (I borrowed one but they are cheap enough to buy). Basically
you put the board it with all the components held in place by solder paste.
Set the temp to about 200C and watch as it rises. When it gets to 100, turn
oven off for 3 min, this is known as drying time and is to drive the
solvent from the solder paste, them set temp to 250 or as high as you can
if lower. Now watch carefully, as soon as the solder paste melts and flows
to make the joints, turn off the oven and open the door.
I've tried this a couple of times and the results are surprisingly good. No
dry joints, no moved components.
The graph will help you predict when things are about to 'happen' and the
thermocouple is essential if your oven temp. gauge isn't accurate.
Brian,
I hadn't heard of using a domestic oven like this. It sounds like an
interesting idea. But wouldn't it be a bit hard on the components? I
wouldn't think many would like being heated his hot.
The commercial assembly lines I've seen use robot soldering irons
instead of heating the entire board.

I believe stencilling on solder paste, robot placement of components, and
melting the whole board in a reflow-like process with an accurately
controlled temperature vs. time profile is pretty standard for
complicated multilayer boards nowadays.


It is, and has been for some years, in fact decades, even in relatively
small batch production. The quality achievable is far higher that you can
get with manual assembly- once the process is right. Sometimes things like
edge connectors are pressed into holes which have been left solder free on
purpose. The plated through holes are designed to 'cold weld' (like a
crimp) when the connector is pressed home. It isn't soldered. This is
common on COTS boards used in military kit and custom boards in the same
LRUs. It is a very reliable technique.


Robotic soldering irons are NOT "manual assembly".

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle

==================

At Fri, 20 Jun 2014 07:02:44 -0400, Jerry Stuckle rearranged some
electrons to write:

On 6/20/2014 3:54 AM, Brian Reay wrote:
Michael Black wrote:


I seem to recall from early articles about surface mount the
suggestion of using a dab of flux to hold the component in place. It
was only to hold it until you actually had something soldered.

That said, I really think a good magnifiying glass or microscope makes
sense. I was trying to figure out something, and got out the
jeweller's loupe, and it's amazing how much bigger everything is.
That's not going to work for soldering, but getting good magnification
that will stand on its own is bound to help a lot. And good lighting.
Looking at that board with the loupe almost makes the idea of
soldering surface mount within my capability.

Michael,

For SMD projects, rather than repairs, you can use a domestic oven to
solder the boards. Ideally, get a small table top model (the type of
thing student or caravaners use) but I did a test run in a full sized
kitchen one. The key thing is to be able to get to 230C or so at least.

You need to plot a graph of the way the oven temp rises using a
thermocouple (I borrowed one but they are cheap enough to buy).
Basically you put the board it with all the components held in place by
solder paste.
Set the temp to about 200C and watch as it rises. When it gets to 100,
turn oven off for 3 min, this is known as drying time and is to drive
the solvent from the solder paste, them set temp to 250 or as high as
you can if lower. Now watch carefully, as soon as the solder paste
melts and flows to make the joints, turn off the oven and open the
door.

I've tried this a couple of times and the results are surprisingly
good. No dry joints, no moved components.

The graph will help you predict when things are about to 'happen' and
the thermocouple is essential if your oven temp. gauge isn't accurate.


Brian,

I hadn't heard of using a domestic oven like this. It sounds like an
interesting idea. But wouldn't it be a bit hard on the components? I
wouldn't think many would like being heated his hot.

The commercial assembly lines I've seen use robot soldering irons
instead of heating the entire board.

I guess you haven't seen many commercial assembly lines then.

SMD assembly lines use reflow ovens. The temperature profile is designed
to preheat the boards as they move through and get the solder above the
liquidus temperature for a few seconds.

SMD components are designed to withstand a reflow cycle.

On 6/21/2014 6:09 AM, David wrote:
At Fri, 20 Jun 2014 07:02:44 -0400, Jerry Stuckle rearranged some
electrons to write:

On 6/20/2014 3:54 AM, Brian Reay wrote:
Michael Black wrote:


I seem to recall from early articles about surface mount the
suggestion of using a dab of flux to hold the component in place. It
was only to hold it until you actually had something soldered.

That said, I really think a good magnifiying glass or microscope makes
sense. I was trying to figure out something, and got out the
jeweller's loupe, and it's amazing how much bigger everything is.
That's not going to work for soldering, but getting good magnification
that will stand on its own is bound to help a lot. And good lighting.
Looking at that board with the loupe almost makes the idea of
soldering surface mount within my capability.

Michael,

For SMD projects, rather than repairs, you can use a domestic oven to
solder the boards. Ideally, get a small table top model (the type of
thing student or caravaners use) but I did a test run in a full sized
kitchen one. The key thing is to be able to get to 230C or so at least.

You need to plot a graph of the way the oven temp rises using a
thermocouple (I borrowed one but they are cheap enough to buy).
Basically you put the board it with all the components held in place by
solder paste.
Set the temp to about 200C and watch as it rises. When it gets to 100,
turn oven off for 3 min, this is known as drying time and is to drive
the solvent from the solder paste, them set temp to 250 or as high as
you can if lower. Now watch carefully, as soon as the solder paste
melts and flows to make the joints, turn off the oven and open the
door.

I've tried this a couple of times and the results are surprisingly
good. No dry joints, no moved components.

The graph will help you predict when things are about to 'happen' and
the thermocouple is essential if your oven temp. gauge isn't accurate.


Brian,

I hadn't heard of using a domestic oven like this. It sounds like an
interesting idea. But wouldn't it be a bit hard on the components? I
wouldn't think many would like being heated his hot.

The commercial assembly lines I've seen use robot soldering irons
instead of heating the entire board.

I guess you haven't seen many commercial assembly lines then.


You can't read, can you?

SMD assembly lines use reflow ovens. The temperature profile is designed
to preheat the boards as they move through and get the solder above the
liquidus temperature for a few seconds.

SMD components are designed to withstand a reflow cycle.


See, that's the difference between you and me. You think there's only
one way things are done. I know there are many ways, and acknowledge that.

So just stop your trolling.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle

==================

On 20/06/14 08:54, Brian Reay wrote:
Michael Black wrote:


I seem to recall from early articles about surface mount the suggestion
of using a dab of flux to hold the component in place. It was only to
hold it until you actually had something soldered.

That said, I really think a good magnifiying glass or microscope makes
sense. I was trying to figure out something, and got out the jeweller's
loupe, and it's amazing how much bigger everything is. That's not going
to work for soldering, but getting good magnification that will stand on
its own is bound to help a lot. And good lighting. Looking at that board
with the loupe almost makes the idea of soldering surface mount within my capability.

Michael,

For SMD projects, rather than repairs, you can use a domestic oven to
solder the boards. Ideally, get a small table top model (the type of thing
student or caravaners use) but I did a test run in a full sized kitchen
one. The key thing is to be able to get to 230C or so at least.

You need to plot a graph of the way the oven temp rises using a
thermocouple (I borrowed one but they are cheap enough to buy). Basically
you put the board it with all the components held in place by solder paste.
Set the temp to about 200C and watch as it rises. When it gets to 100, turn
oven off for 3 min, this is known as drying time and is to drive the
solvent from the solder paste, them set temp to 250 or as high as you can
if lower. Now watch carefully, as soon as the solder paste melts and flows
to make the joints, turn off the oven and open the door.

I've tried this a couple of times and the results are surprisingly good. No
dry joints, no moved components.

The graph will help you predict when things are about to 'happen' and the
thermocouple is essential if your oven temp. gauge isn't accurate.

A fellow ham repaired a road kill laptop using a counter top pizza grill
using using this method after hearing it on a podcast. It cured bad
joints under a graphics device. I installed Linux Mint for him and it
was good to go. You can also use a heat lamp over the IC for ball grid
arrays.

A Raspberry Pi could be programmed to control a counter top pizza grill
to give the correct profile. Modify the grill to vent in cool air with a
fan at the end of the cycle to cool the board down.

Jim Mueller wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jun 2014 16:24:46 +0100, gareth wrote:
Don't use cyanoacrylate super glues on anything that will be heated; they
give off nasty fumes.

This also reveals fingerprints, so could help solve some cold cases in
Chippenham.

"Brian Reay" wrote in message
...

Cue nonsense from Walter Mitty, which will be ignored.

You propose to ignore yourself? Good advice!