On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 02:42:58 +0000, Joerg wrote:

Hello Rich,

that about a third of the way down, says:
"... Accurate imitation of the Hammond sound with simple electronic
circuitry was difficult, because the subtly-changing phase relationships
between tonewheels could not be easily replicated...."

OK, fair enough. :-)


Even with complicated electronics it wasn't. IIRC it was Suzuki-Hammond
which came out with the XK2 and then the XK3. Those are pretty elaborate
synthesizer organs. But according to the experts it just ain't the same.


It seems like, no matter how closely you try to mimic the waveform of a
real instrument, there's always something that says, "This is electronic."
Or, maybe more accurately, "This is not real." ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

Hello Rich,

It seems like, no matter how closely you try to mimic the waveform of a
real instrument,...


I have a feeling that this is exactly the problem. Engineers try to
mimic the output waveform instead of looking how the real instrument is
built. If they did that, they'd try to emulate all the individual parts
and pieces.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 22:03:48 +0000, Joerg wrote:

Hello Rich,

It seems like, no matter how closely you try to mimic the waveform of a
real instrument,...


I have a feeling that this is exactly the problem. Engineers try to
mimic the output waveform instead of looking how the real instrument is
built. If they did that, they'd try to emulate all the individual parts
and pieces.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Yabbut, how many gyrators and phase shifters and stuff does it take to
model, for example, a bowed string? ;-)

Thanks!
Rich

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 01:06:02 GMT, the renowned Rich Grise
wrote:

On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 22:03:48 +0000, Joerg wrote:

Hello Rich,

It seems like, no matter how closely you try to mimic the waveform of a
real instrument,...


I have a feeling that this is exactly the problem. Engineers try to
mimic the output waveform instead of looking how the real instrument is
built. If they did that, they'd try to emulate all the individual parts
and pieces.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Yabbut, how many gyrators and phase shifters and stuff does it take to
model, for example, a bowed string? ;-)

Thanks!
Rich

Whatever it is, if it has to come out of speakers it isn't going to
sound quite right.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Hello Spehro,

Whatever it is, if it has to come out of speakers it isn't going to
sound quite right.


In case of a Hammond organ it might since it has a speaker. Of course,
it's a tube amp but that is a whole other matter which alone could make
this thread balloon.

It'll take a lot of gyrators and filters but considering that one can
buy a 400MHz DSP for less than a crate of beer these days it should be
feasible. In case of our piano the DSP still couldn't win. The piano
doesn't need power. Not even light since it has its own candles.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 02:13:05 GMT, the renowned Joerg
wrote:

Hello Spehro,

Whatever it is, if it has to come out of speakers it isn't going to
sound quite right.


In case of a Hammond organ it might since it has a speaker. Of course,
it's a tube amp but that is a whole other matter which alone could make
this thread balloon.

Don't some of them have rotating speakers?

It'll take a lot of gyrators and filters but considering that one can
buy a 400MHz DSP for less than a crate of beer these days it should be
feasible. In case of our piano the DSP still couldn't win. The piano
doesn't need power. Not even light since it has its own candles.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Sure, but can you flip a switch and be playing the flute or er-hu?


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

Don't some of them have rotating speakers?


That is a "Leslie" speaker. I have to service the one at my church.
The bearings are shot.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Hello Spehro,

In case of a Hammond organ it might since it has a speaker. Of course,
it's a tube amp but that is a whole other matter which alone could make
this thread balloon.

Don't some of them have rotating speakers?


That was an accessory item, a Leslie speaker. A huge cabinet with a
rotating speaker on slide contacts, motors, gears. We don't have one and
we wouldn't know where to put it anyway. The amp under the organ is only
20W AFAIK with a huge speaker. That's real watts, not PMPS or whatever
kids call "power" these days. Meaning it can make the sound of a large
pipe organ and not lose steam after holding the bass chord for more than
a hundred milliseconds.


Sure, but can you flip a switch and be playing the flute or er-hu?


Actually you could. Ours doesn't have the flute presets but drawbars.
With these you can set the ratio of all the harmonics and the manual
shows the settings for a lot of common instruments. Some sound real,
some don't. But we also have a small environmentally friendly (zero
electric power, made from wood) flute. Not that I can play it but my
wife can.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

"Rich Grise" bravely wrote to "All" (29 Dec 05 01:06:02)
--- on the heady topic of " 6v & 90v DC Power supply"

RG From: Rich Grise
RG Xref: core-easynews rec.radio.amateur.homebrew:90355
RG sci.electronics.design:535244


RG On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 22:03:48 +0000, Joerg wrote:

Hello Rich,

It seems like, no matter how closely you try to mimic the waveform of a
real instrument,...


I have a feeling that this is exactly the problem. Engineers try to
mimic the output waveform instead of looking how the real instrument is
built. If they did that, they'd try to emulate all the individual parts
and pieces.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

RG Yabbut, how many gyrators and and stuff does it take to
RG model, for example, a bowed string? ;-)

RG Thanks!
RG Rich


One wouldn't use gyrators and phase shifters but rather wavetables.
In a nutshell, it is a sample (digital recording) of the real
instrument. Then it is digitally manipulated to add modulation, timbre
characteristics, and whatever other effects are required for the
instrument. This is calculated for each note and stored in a table in
memory, hence the name wavetable. Then this is read out to the digital
to analog converter. The resulting sound is hard to tell apart from
the real instrument. Another even more realistic and versatile method
uses digital building blocks to mimic each physical component. For
example in the case of the human voice, the nose, the mouth, windpipe,
etc. One can create totally non-existant instruments like a violin
that sounds like a flute or whatever else you could possibly imagine.
There is a program which does this but I'm drawing a blank now.

A*s*i*m*o*v

.... Guitar smashing doesn't bother me. Some "need" smashing. -Chet Atkins

http://www.rodgersinstruments.com/

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