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Old July 21st 08, 12:41 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
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Default Jesus knew about ham radio guys!

On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 15:30:19 EDT, Michael Coslo wrote:

Another tactic is to ask if you can put up an antenna, and if the answer
is no, then politely say, "Too bad-see you later!". If the real estate
agent loses a few sales for something silly like that, then they will
start looking into it.


We did that when we went looking for this house 9 years ago. Our
Realtor was firmly in our camp, but the houses just weren't there. We
turned down three houses that were nicer than the one we're in just
because of that. Our other "must have" was that it had to be within
one block of a bus stop. That we are.
--

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest

Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

e-mail: k2asp [at] arrl [dot] net

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Old July 21st 08, 02:36 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
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On Jul 18, 7:28 pm, "Howard Lester" wrote:

there is land and housing in Tucson that allows antennas, but in
general, as far as I know either you have to be "out in the county," or i

n
an older, very established neighborhood. That seems to be "in general," a

s
I'm sure there are exceptions. But if you want a new, modest home in a
typical family-oriented subdivision, it is not at all likely you'll find

one
that allows antennas. If you've "got money," then your options are greate

r.
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Old July 22nd 08, 02:52 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
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Default Jesus knew about ham radio guys!

wrote:
On Jul 18, 7:28 pm, "Howard Lester" wrote:

there is land and housing in Tucson that allows antennas, but in
general, as far as I know either you have to be "out in the county," or i

n
an older, very established neighborhood. That seems to be "in general," a

s
I'm sure there are exceptions. But if you want a new, modest home in a
typical family-oriented subdivision, it is not at all likely you'll find

one
that allows antennas. If you've "got money," then your options are greate

r.

As previously observed, one can only buy what is for sale when one is
looking to buy. There are several houses near me that I would gladly
move to - but they're not for sale, and haven't been for at least a
decade.


Respectfully Jim, I think that is just simplified too much.

While it is true within itself, It is possible to get the house that you
want, and with the features you want.

You just might have to wait a while. We looked several times before we
bought the place we are in now. Some times we just didn't buy.

This is the part that I do that is apparently foreign to many. The is no
law that says that we have to buy a house, some house, any house. One
can live in an apartment for a while, or as we did, a mobile home. It
took about 2 years, but we got a real bargain at the price we wanted, in
the neighborhood we wanted. Sold the mobile home for nearly what we paid
for it, and were out only the lot rent. House rent would have been a bit
more outlay, but it's still worth it to get the house you want.

I did the same thing with a motorcycle I bought recently. I could have
bought new or what the dealers wanted and had the bike I wanted in
around 15 minutes. I looked and waited for a month to find a motivated
seller, and got a good bike for thousands less.

And back to Ham radio, I have bought all my used radios that way. Got an
IC-745 for $250, and my latest, an IC-761 for 300 dollars. I just had to
wait and pounce at the right time.

Patience will reward you. Buy exactly what you want, not the one that
you think is best when you first start looking


I am curious, though, about some things that seem pretty common in
amateur discussions about HOAs and CC&Rs.

It seems to me that a lot of amateurs insist on a new house, or at
least a newer house, meaning something no older than 10-20 years.
Older homes are simply off the radar, for some reason. Is it just me,
or is this a real trend? What's behind it?



Jim, what I think it is is that we are hearing mostly from those who
are having trouble putting up an antenna, and since they are mostly from
the newr home group, they are more likely to be people who insist on a
newer home. Just a guess.

- 73 de Mike N3LI -



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Old July 22nd 08, 05:07 AM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
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On Jul 17, 4:17 pm, KC4UAI wrote:
On Jul 16, 7:45 pm, wrote:
On Jul 16, 3:30 pm, Michael Coslo wrote:


There are plenty of unrestricted places on the
market *now*, because of
the RE market slump and the mortgage crisis.


Maybe in your area, but where I live CC&R's are the rule
and they will
all pretty much restrict antennas for ham radio use. It all depends
on when the average house was built in your area. The standard way
this works here in the Dallas area is developer buys large tract of
land, applies CC&R's to the tract, subdivides and develops the
land to
sell the houses he builds. He throws in a pool and play ground
across
from the model homes which is owned by the HOA that gets
created by
the CC&R's. 99-100% of the new homes available in the area
I live will
come with CC&R's based on these boilerplates. (Personally I
know of
NO new homes in my current price range for sale with 10 miles of
my house that won't have CC&R's.)


That's pretty much the pattern for developments everywhere. And not
just large developments either.

There is an way, however. Doesn't work all the time but it has worked
in some, and may be worth a try in this RE market.

(insert standard "not a lawyer" disclaimer HERE)

The way deed restrictions & covenants work in the areas I know of is
that they are recorded when the property is first sold. And of course
one of the restrictions is that each owner has to pass the
restrictions on to the next owner.

But in some cases, the first buyer can say "NO!" to the developer, and
get restrictions removed *before* the sale. So while the rest of the
properties may be restricted, that one isn't.

HOA rules are another issue completely, but the same approach may
work.

In a market where the developer is desperate to sell, a buyer who is
ready to sign on the dotted line if certain conditions are met may be
a big incentive to remove some boilerplate.

However, this is not something to try without expert RE legal counsel
to make absolutely sure you have airtight exemption *before* you sign
anything. Verbal assurances mean nothing; it's gotta be in clear
writing and properly recorded.

Of course you've got to be ready to simply walk away if they say no or
even if they hem and haw.

I've seen only ONE subdivision in my area that would have allowed
antennas in their CC&R's but it was a very special case. The
CC&R's
didn't originate with a builder, but where adopted by the land
owners
AFTER the subdivision was plated. Those CC&R's where a model of
simplicity and basically dealt with keeping unsightly things to a
minimum. (Keep your house painted a normal color and in good
repair,
no junk cars, lawns mowed, fences in good repair etc.)


That brings up another point: Local governments pawning off
responsibility.

In every house I've lived in, things like no junk cars, lawn mowing,
barking dogs, trash, general repair and such were handled by various
government ordinances about nuisances. Be a bad neighbor and the local
gendarmes will show up with a notice of violating some ordinance or
other.

IMHO some local governments, rather than pass and enforce such
ordinances, depend on the HOAs and CC&Rs to do it for them. "Keeps the
taxes down" is their excuse, but of course the enforcement comes out
of HOA fees.

The problem is that the big builders have boiler plate CC&R's that
change very little between subdivisions. All of these boiler plates
contain restrictions on antennas and are constructed to never
expire.


Not just big developers either.

More and more land is becoming off limits to ham radio
antennas and
this is a bigger problem in areas that have been under active
development for the last 20-30 years such as Dallas.


The cure is for lots of people to write Congress and get them to order
FCC to expand the OTARD preemption. FCC has clearly said they will do
it when Congress tells them to.

Therefore I have to object to the "just move" response to the plight
of hams in CC&R communities. It may be an option for some,
but for
others it may not. At some point I may choose to move, and
CC&R
restrictions on antennas will likely be something I look at. I can
tell you that I won't be able to buy a comparable house for the
same
money without CC&R's in Murphy or the surrounding area. There
are
areas that allow them, but they do not compare with where I live in
price or age.


IMHO, one of the things that keeps the price of restricted houses down
is the restrictions! Another is the HOA fees and added cost of keeping
the place up to HOA standards. I've seen it in action.

Yes, I could drive 40 more miles a day and perhaps find
something that would work, but with the cost of driving these
days I’d
be moving into less of a house for sure to make ends meet.


40 miles a day in a small car is maybe $6 in gas....

IMHO, a house where you can't have antennas is less of a house than
one where you can.

There are fundamental
problems with CC&R's and pesky HOA's under the current
law. Depending
on how they are drafted, they can end up causing some
seemingly very
unreasonable consequences for homeowners that may not be
obvious by reading them.


Such as?

The one I can think of off-hand has to do with energy. As far as I can
tell, the days of cheap plentiful energy are ending, and we're going
to see higher prices not just for gasoline but for electricity and
natural gas.

One way to cope will be to use less energy and to use alternate
technologies. For example, whenever the weather is nice I hang clothes
on the line rather than use the dryer. Saves a couple of kWh per load.
At 15 cents per kWh it adds up, plus in the summertime it reduces the
load on the air conditioner.

Some folks around here have solar hot water heaters that reduce the
need for the regular hot water heater to turn on. The panels are on
the roof, facing south.

We may someday see low-cost wind and solar electric power systems for
homes. Depending on the wind and sun conditions where you live, and
how much electricity costs, they may someday be a reasonable
alternative for part of the electrical load.

But if CC&Rs ban such things, some folks will be very unhappy.

Personally, I think they should be put under some
really strict legal limits and the powers of HOA's strictly limited.
But all that is another issue...


Not really. Part of the problem is that a lot of folks don't really
know what they're getting into when they buy.

Friend of mine bought into such a place, and after some time
discovered that the upstairs windows leaked. The construction was
rather slipshod IMHO but caulk had worked for a couple of years. But
now he had a major job to fix the problem.

But he couldn't just fix it - he had to get HOA approval every step of
the way. He had to buy exact replacement windows, even though better
ones were available for the same money, because the better ones
weren't HOA approved. He had to get a certain kind of trim and paint
and such, at high prices, not because it was high quality, but because
the stuff wasn't stock anymore.

What was a simple project that could have been a major improvement
turned into a major headache that cost lots more time and money.

All in all I can only hope that this CC&R Craze comes
to an end pretty
soon. I don't think they are as much a benifit to
landowners as they
are thought to be. But until they fall out of favor to the public or
get pre-empted by law they will only increase in coverage.
Personally, that scares me.


Me too!

The problem is that it doesn't scare most folks.

They've been pretty standard for more than 30 years in some places.
And in a lot of cases the homeowners don't really own the land!

73 de Jim, N2EY



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Old July 22nd 08, 01:58 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
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wrote:

The way deed restrictions & covenants work in the areas I know of is
that they are recorded when the property is first sold. And of course
one of the restrictions is that each owner has to pass the
restrictions on to the next owner.

But in some cases, the first buyer can say "NO!" to the developer, and
get restrictions removed *before* the sale. So while the rest of the
properties may be restricted, that one isn't.


While this might give you the legal right to erect an antenna (and it
might not; I'm not a lawyer either), I would look carefully at other
factors before considering it. Let me illustrate what I'm trying to say
by building two scenarios:

1. The development has large lots and the neighbors are pretty laid
back. You buy the house and erect an unobtrusive antenna. Your
neighbors don't notice, and the ones who do don't care.

2. You erect a tower on your tiny lot and hang a bunch of antennas on
it, creating what looks like a masterpiece to your eyes and an eyesore
to your neighbors. Since the people who bought in the development are
particularly sensitive to such things, they make your life miserable
even though they have no legal recourse.

The scenarios are deliberately exaggerated to make the point that the
legal situation is only one aspect of living in a community. If the
other members of the community have a strong mindset about what's
appropriate and you're outside that mindset, there will be an issue.
You have to live with these people. If they, as a group, feel strongly
enough that you're acting inappropriately they'll get their way, deed
restrictions or not.

73, Steve KB9X

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Old July 22nd 08, 06:57 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
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Steve Bonine wrote:


1. The development has large lots and the neighbors are pretty laid
back. You buy the house and erect an unobtrusive antenna. Your
neighbors don't notice, and the ones who do don't care.

2. You erect a tower on your tiny lot and hang a bunch of antennas on
it, creating what looks like a masterpiece to your eyes and an eyesore
to your neighbors. Since the people who bought in the development are
particularly sensitive to such things, they make your life miserable
even though they have no legal recourse.


Steve, that is a good point. While I can put up anything within reason,
I have went with unobtrusive antennas. Some of my neighbor know about
the antennas, and some don't.

Get along with the neighbors!


The scenarios are deliberately exaggerated to make the point that the
legal situation is only one aspect of living in a community. If the
other members of the community have a strong mindset about what's
appropriate and you're outside that mindset, there will be an issue. You
have to live with these people. If they, as a group, feel strongly
enough that you're acting inappropriately they'll get their way, deed
restrictions or not.


This brings up another thought. I wonder how many times a person who has
trouble with the neighbors might have trouble with them in other areas.
Some times an antenna fight might just be a proxy for personality clashes.

Also a bit of friendly explanation can go a long way. When I put up my
first dipole, the neighbors across the street came out to ask what I was
doing. Natural enough when they saw the crazy guy on the roof with a
slingshot and fishing line. I explained exactly what it was, and told
them about it's uses, especially about emergency communications. I gave
a few examples, such as the lower Ontario disaster that happened a few
years before.

I even noted that in really bad disasters, I could patch them through
to their relatives to let them know they were okay - if the local phones
went out.

It can be a lot easier sell when they can see that it might be a
benefit to them. Our locale was the site of a couple major wintertime
disasters in the last 10 or so years. Big winter storms that came early
and brought trees down that still had leaves on them, knocking out power
and phone for several days, as long as a week in some areas. The
collective response was, "I'll be, that's pretty cool".

A tray of cookies or brownies once in a while or the occasional beer
doesn't hurt either! Hard to get too mad at people you break bread with.


Contrast that to demanding your right to put up whatever you darn well
please, and if the neighbors don't like it, they can can it. We all know
which one works better.

- 73 de Mike N3LI -

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Old July 22nd 08, 07:00 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
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On Jul 21, 9:52 pm, Michael Coslo wrote:
wrote:
On Jul 18, 7:28 pm, "Howard Lester" wrote:


As previously observed, one can only buy what is for sale when one is
looking to buy. There are several houses near me that I would gladly
move to - but they're not for sale, and haven't been for at least a
decade.


Respectfully Jim, I think that is just simplified too much.


Without being argumentative, Mike, I think not.

While it is true within itself, It is possible to get the house that you
want, and with the features you want.


You just might have to wait a while. We looked several times before we
bought the place we are in now. Some times we just didn't buy.


Agreed in most cases. But there are probably exceptions out there. I
don't know
what it's like trying to buy real estate in Tucson or Dallas, for
example.

This is the part that I do that is apparently foreign to many. The is no
law that says that we have to buy a house, some house, any house. One
can live in an apartment for a while, or as we did, a mobile home. It
took about 2 years, but we got a real bargain at the price we wanted, in
the neighborhood we wanted. Sold the mobile home for nearly what we paid
for it, and were out only the lot rent. House rent would have been a bit
more outlay, but it's still worth it to get the house you want.


It all depends on the situation.

For one thing, there's the money aspect, which is a big one for a lot
of us. Living in a rented space means no deductions for interest or RE
taxes, and no equity building.

When the RE market is rising, waiting too long can be a big problem.
If the house values
are rising faster than your purchasing power, you can find that this
year you can't afford a house that you could have afforded last year.
(Of course this causes people to buy *now*, which raises prices, and
the circle keeps rolling...)

It is a common story here to meet folks who could not afford the house
they live in if they had to buy it today, because the house prices
went up much faster than their income.

Besides pure $$, there are factors like the kids' education. At least
in PA, the public schools your kids attend depends on where you live,
and different school districts have very different levels of quality.
In many areas the house prices reflect that. I've seen similar houses
on opposite sides of the same street priced 20% differently, because
one was in the highly-rated Podunk School District and the other in
the good-but-not-as-highly-rated Squeedunk School District. On top of
that, pulling the kids out of one school and dropping them in another
may not be the best idea if there's any other option.

I did the same thing with a motorcycle I bought recently. I could have
bought new or what the dealers wanted and had the bike I wanted in
around 15 minutes. I looked and waited for a month to find a motivated
seller, and got a good bike for thousands less.


Sure. But everyone needs a place to live; not everyone needs a
motorcycle. More important, real estate isn't portable.

And back to Ham radio, I have bought all my used radios that way. Got an
IC-745 for $250, and my latest, an IC-761 for 300 dollars. I just had to
wait and pounce at the right time.


(cue Jacques Coustea narration)

.....ze barracuda waitz patiently for ze most taztee prey to svim
by.....

Patience will reward you. Buy exactly what you want, not the one that
you think is best when you first start looking


Agreed, but RE is different. For one thing, it costs so much more.
$300 for a rig is a different thing than $300,000 for a house. The ham
who can afford a couple of $300 rigs probably can't afford a couple of
$300,000 houses.

Plus if you choose right you can try a variety of used rigs for
relatively little money. The main cost is shipping. Buying and selling
RE you live in is a completely different game!

And in many areas $300,000 doesn't buy a lot of house.

Most of all, depending on your given set of criteria, it may be a very
long time before the house you really want comes on the market.

It seems to me that a lot of amateurs insist on a new house, or at
least a newer house, meaning something no older than 10-20 years.
Older homes are simply off the radar, for some reason. Is it just me,
or is this a real trend? What's behind it?


Jim, what I think it is is that we are hearing mostly fro

m those who
are having trouble putting up an antenna, and since they are mostly from
the newr home group, they are more likely to be people who insist on a
newer home. Just a guess.

Possibly, but the question remains: Why a new or newer house?


73 de Jim, N2EY

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Old July 22nd 08, 09:30 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
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On Jul 21, 11:07 pm, wrote:
On Jul 17, 4:17 pm, KC4UAI wrote:

On Jul 16, 7:45 pm, wrote:
On Jul 16, 3:30 pm, Michael Coslo wrote:


(insert standard "not a lawyer" disclaimer HERE)


Same for me... I'm not a RE lawyer either...


The way deed restrictions & covenants work in the areas I know of is
that they are recorded when the property is first sold. And of course
one of the restrictions is that each owner has to pass the
restrictions on to the next owner.

But in some cases, the first buyer can say "NO!" to the developer, and
get restrictions removed *before* the sale. So while the rest of the
properties may be restricted, that one isn't.


Well, looking at the legal process that went on before I purchased my
house, this isn't going to work. The CC&R's are actually recorded for
the whole property before it was plated and sold to the developer. At
least in my case, these restrictions where already recorded before the
developer owned the lot. There are over 300 lots in my subdivision
and for the developer to except one of the lots, he would have to own
them all, remove the restrictions on them all and reapply them to all
but one. I got a feeling that they won't go to this much trouble.
Yea, they may give you a "The HOA will allow antennas on your lot"
letter, but that would only be good for as long as the developer owned
enough lots to retain control of the HOA and actually cared to live by
the agreement. After that, it would be worthless.

HOA rules are another issue completely, but the same approach may
work.


In my case the HOA rules are spelled out in the CC&R's (for the most
part). They have some latitude in some areas of appearance, but not a
lot. My CC&R's actually specify the maximum heigth of the grass in
you yard.


However, this is not something to try without expert RE legal counsel
to make absolutely sure you have airtight exemption *before* you sign
anything. Verbal assurances mean nothing; it's gotta be in clear
writing and properly recorded.


Very good advice. Get a lawyer BEFORE you need one. Having all the
"I's" dotted and "T's" crossed legally is the best way to proceed. By
the time you need one, it's going to be too late.


More and more land is becoming off limits to ham radio
antennas and
this is a bigger problem in areas that have been under active
development for the last 20-30 years such as Dallas.


The cure is for lots of people to write Congress and get them to order
FCC to expand the OTARD preemption. FCC has clearly said they will do
it when Congress tells them to.


We can also go to the City, County, and State and ask for preemptive
rules for Part 97 antennas. I get the impression that one might have
more luck in those venues than in Congress. I've seen more than one
antenna bill get introduced into congress with pretty good support
only to get buried in committee and never to be seen again. I don't
see that changing anytime soon.


Yes, I could drive 40 more miles a day and perhaps find
something that would work, but with the cost of driving these
days I’d
be moving into less of a house for sure to make ends meet.


40 miles a day in a small car is maybe $6 in gas....


Compared to my current 6 mile/day bill of $0.60 using that car is
pretty expensive. I'm also 6'7" so it's kind of hard to find a car I
can fit into and get good mileage.. But we are moving off track.

There are fundamental
problems with CC&R's and pesky HOA's under the current
law. Depending
on how they are drafted, they can end up causing some
seemingly very
unreasonable consequences for homeowners that may not be
obvious by reading them.


Such as?


For example... Say the HOA doesn't like the current color of your
fence. You live on a fixed income and cannot paint the fence but the
ACC changed the rules and now your fence is unacceptable. HOA
eventually assess fines, charging you for each day the fence is not
painted. They file leans on your property to secure the debt and you
could loose your house, all because the "rules" changed and you didn't
agree to the change.

Personally, I think they should be put under some
really strict legal limits and the powers of HOA's strictly limited.
But all that is another issue...


Not really. Part of the problem is that a lot of folks don't really
know what they're getting into when they buy.


Some do but the fine details about what can happen would be lost on
most of us. In Texas things get pretty crazy. I've read a case where
a guy got a lot with deed restrictions that didn't allow "mobile
homes". He started to have a pre-fab modular home built on the lot
and got hauled into court by the HOA for trying to install a "mobile
home". He ended up loosing the case after nearly 5 years of having a
half completed house he couldn't live in. Paid substantial fines
too. Crazy Texas courts where they attempt to take the most liberal
interpretation in favor of the HOA they can.

Friend of mine bought into such a place, and after some time
discovered that the upstairs windows leaked. The construction was
rather slipshod IMHO but caulk had worked for a couple of years. But
now he had a major job to fix the problem.


Oh, I know how that goes. My dad made the mistake of getting the
windows changed without consulting the HOA. Hooo Boy, what a mess
that was.

I got a letter from the HOA telling me to mow my lawn... OK, but I had
proof that my lawn was being mowed each week for the entire summer
(can you say cancelled checks to the lawn care guys) and I'm sure the
yard wasn't getting out of hand enough to warrant a nasty letter from
the HOA in a week. I figure it was a mistake, but I can just see some
guy hired by the HOA driving his Honda though the neighborhood looking
for "violations" scratching notes in a book. (In our case it's a lady
in a orange corvette that works for the management company. I know, I
spotted her a few times before I saw her at the last HOA meeting.)

Also, I don't dare try and "hide" a stealth antenna in plain sight.
It's like the SS is driving around looking for a justification for the
high fees the management company charges. For some reason they can see
18 gauge bare copper coming off the back of my house heading for the
back fence. (Oh yea, I got a letter on that one too.) I could barely
see it from the street, knowing it was there.

I wonder what the smallest gauge wire I could try for a 75M dipole
that would stay together for a reasonable length of time? I'm also
got a bit of ladder line I'm thinking I'll use to feed a loop antenna
running along the edge of the roof secured with Christmas light
holders.. I wonder if they will see that too?

Flagpoles are a highly touted option (Just hide a vertical in one) but
there are issues there too. In order to be safe, (and legal in some
cases) I'd need to consider RF exposure limits and take steps to keep
somebody from getting too close to the flagpole in the front yard. If
they allowed the flagpole to go up without comment a fence, or some
kind of screening, is going to get HOA attention.

I’ve considered trying to appeal to the HOA board for some minor
allowances. Like giving me the ability to put up things that are
hidden behind the house with perhaps just the top 20’ of a vertical
visible above my roof or allowing some antenna supports hidden behind
my house with just small wire visible from the street. The problem
with that is that I don’t know where to start with them. I’ve
considered running for the board to increase my pull, but I just don’t
have the time right now.

Has anybody had any success with getting an HOA to allow this kind of
thing, in spite of the clear restrictions in the CC&R’s?

-= Bob =-

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Old July 22nd 08, 09:30 PM posted to rec.radio.amateur.moderated
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On Jul 22, 12:57 pm, Michael Coslo wrote:

Contrast that to demanding your right to put up whatever you darn well
please, and if the neighbors don't like it, they can can it. We all know
which one works better.


Well I don't know about you but my wife has a LOT more to say about my
antenna aspirations than the neighbors ever will. She's not going to
allow anything she considers an eyesore to go up. She sees me gawking
at some of the antenna farms around and makes it clear I won't have
one that looks like that!

Of course this puts me in a difficult situation. When I retire to the
country and get the 20 acres on the hill side. She's going to want
the house on the top of the hill and the antenna farm someplace else.

-= bob =-

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